The Daily Beast Podcast - Why Trump Is The Real Danger to the Economy: Ruhle

Episode Date: August 28, 2025

MSNBC’s Stephanie Ruhle joins Joanna Coles to unpack Donald Trump’s power moves against the Federal Reserve's governors. From his campaign against Fed chairman Jerome Powell to saying he has fired Black governor Lisa Cook, the conversation reveals a president at war with the independent central bank. The two explore how Trump leans on Wall Street CEOs, demands loyalty over judgment, and pulls business leaders like Jeff Bezos and Tim Cook into his orbit as props in his economic battles. And Ruhle spells out why Wall Street's hair is on fire about New York socialist Zohran Mamdami but it should be ablaze about Trump. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

truthfully, if you look at this, the markets don't seem to have responded in a way that you think they might do, given that the Fed is supposed to be independent of Trump and Trump is making inroads. What is your reading of that? I spoke to every Wall Street investor source I have yesterday. I do think, or the feedback I'm getting is things are a little bit late. Things are a little delayed. It's the end of summer. But people don't necessarily believe that Trump will follow through with things.

It goes back to Taco Trump, right? I'm Joanna Coles. This is the Daily Beast podcast and who better to talk to about Donald Trump's attempts to hijack the Federal Reserve Bank with his attempted firing of Lisa Cook than Stephanie rule. Nobody talks about finance, about Wall Street, about what's actually going on with monetary policy, with more energy and with more insight than Stephanie. She is on weeknights, the host of MSNBC's The 11th Hour. But she comes to us at the Daily Beast podcast regularly with really insightful updates on what her sources on Wall Street are saying. So with no further ado, let's get into it. Stephanie Rule, let's get into it. Why does Jerome Powell at the Fed so get under Donald Trump's skim? Because it's all about power. Since Donald Trump has taken office this second time, his number one goal is to exert power and influence. His biggest frustration during the first term were all those people in his first administration who said, no, sir, you're not allowed to do this. You know, this is for the American people. This is the rule of law. He hated that. So remember

during the transition when Howard Lutnik was co-head of the transition, he said, the number one quality you need to be part of this administration is loyalty to Donald Trump. And minute by minute, day by day, that's what Donald Trump has been focused on. And Jay Powell has truly been a standout, stand alone, not summing as knows at Trump, but saying, this is my job. This is what I'm going to do, and I don't have to answer to you. And that absolutely incenses Trump. And that's what this whole thing is about, right? This is not about Lisa Cook. This is not about mortgage fraud. Let's think about everything Donald Trump has done. When he went after the law firms, was he really going after DEI? No, he was going after law firms that worked with people who didn't

like Trump. Is he really fighting campuses to root out anti-Semitism? No, he's getting big settlements because that's what he wants to get. When Walmart comes to him and says, we're going to have to raise our prices because of tariffs, he says, I dare you, do not do that. All of this is about exerting power. Jay Powell obviously has huge influence over markets and monetary policy, and Donald Trump simply wants rates lowered. And let's be clear, every president does, right? Every president would love it. if interest rates would go down in the short term because that juices the equity markets. But simply lowering interest rates does not solve the economy. OK, so let us get into the Lisa Cook of it all because I think of the Fed, you know, I'm not someone

with a finance background, but I understand it in terms of a bit like the Supreme Court that Trump has his judges now on the Supreme Court that he feels will vote his way. if he can get rid of one of the seven members of the board of the Fed, he will then have a majority. He's got three people on there. If he gets rid of Lisa Cook, who is now targeted, he'll have four. But that's what's insane, Joanna, because in the last 112 years, the Fed is independent.

It is part of what makes America exceptional. It is why countries from around the world want to invest here. It's why people from around the world want to start their businesses here. It is because we have three separate but equal branches of government and we have an independent central bank that doesn't get influenced by a president who says, hey, let's lower rates so we can juice the equity market because I want to get reelected. It's not independence of the Fed that's made us exceptional. So never before now did you have a president or anyone looking at Fed governors saying this one's on my team versus this one's on that team. Suddenly we're

talking about it like the Supreme Court. That was never the case. Nice. Not to mention, not to mention, just a week ago, what did Jay Powell do? Intimate that he might lower rates next month. And if he does, guess who might vote with him? Lisa Cook. So, Stephanie, why have they targeted Lisa Cook specifically? Well, the government is claiming that she committed mortgage fraud that on two separate mortgages, she claimed they were her primary residence. Can I just ask you one thing then? How would they know this? I'm not saying, I'm not saying, I'm not. condoning it if it's true, obviously. But why would they know this? So this was referred by Bill Pulte, who runs the housing agency, basically. He's a longtime ally Trump appointee. But Lisa Cook is not alone, right? They're claiming mortgage fraud from Tish James. They're saying that that could be happening with Adam Schiff in California. Though, I've actually heard this before. Abby Lowell,

Lisa Cook's lawyer brought it up yesterday about Ken Paxton, the Republican in Texas, so I don't know of any DOJ probe. But remember, when the government wants to find something, they're going to find something, right? So when you're seeing the president to this, the question next is going to be, well, now that he has more and more allies at the IRS, are we going to see big egregious audits of who the president might consider to be political foes? you know, similar to what Richard Nixon wanted to do, you know, go after his enemy's list before he was stopped. Just yesterday, I spoke to a massive hedge fund manager in Europe who said, I don't know if this woman committed mortgage fraud. And he said, but when the government wants to get you, the government will get you. They are the law. And especially in the world of Trump, right, where Trump is amassing more and more power.

And we don't necessarily have those three separate but equal branches. is if Trump tells Pam Bondi and Cash Patel he wants something, Trump's going to get that thing. And so it's almost beside the point. Right. So, I mean, truthfully, if you look at this, the markets don't seem to have responded in a way that you think they might do, given that the Fed is supposed to be independent of Trump and Trump is making inroads. What is your reading of that? Are they just behind what's likely to be some sort of impact? So it's funny. I mean, I spoke to every Wall Street investor source I have yesterday, I spoke to them for a couple reasons. But I do think, or the feedback I'm getting is things are a little bit late. You know, things are a little delayed. It's the end of summer. But people don't necessarily believe that Trump will follow through with things. It goes back to Taco Trump, right? Trump does end up having the markets at this point feel like his one guardrail. When things really drop, he moves. He balks, right? He didn't go as far as he said he was going to do.

with tariff. So it sort of remains to be seen. And when you also look at the markets, right, remember, we're experiencing a tech boom. When you look at the markets, those giant AI-driven tech companies are so oversized. They're so outsized when it comes to the S&P. And those companies are hugely outperforming. So, you know, we're going to get Nvidia earnings today, and I'm sure they're going to be massive. And that overshadows the fact that just yesterday, John Deere said they're going to be laying off hundreds of people. Why? Slow down in demand. and the tariff impact. So on one hand, yes, it's surprising that the markets haven't had a bigger reaction to this announcement from Trump. But things are also somewhat muted because Trump says a lot of

things. But all in, if this actually happens and the Fed loses its independence, it'll have massively negative impacts. How could it not? Well, and surely it's going to undermine the dollar, isn't it, which is the world's most dominant currency? Absolutely, right? People invest their money here because they trust the U.S. dollar, right? That's why we are the reserve currency. And something like this makes us start to look like a banana republic. When you have politicians that have this kind of influence over economic policy, they simply shouldn't.

So let me ask you something. I would just say this. The president would likely have gotten the rate cut he wanted months ago had it not been for the tariffs. Right. What the president is doing, this is what's so interesting. And it kills me kind of from my Wall Street. sources, because I'll tell you, every guy that I talked to on Wall Street is panic-stricken over the idea of Zoram Mamdani being the next New York City mayor. The idea that a Democratic socialist,

somebody who goes after the wealthy, you know, when I tell you, I got a dozen and a half phone calls when the headlines crossed that Mamdani, you know, proposed this idea to have a few government-funded grocery stores in New York City, right? Guys were freaking out. Like, this is communist Russia type of you know what yet those same people are watching trump right shake down intel say to intel i want your CEO gone he's unqualified for the job and then two days there oh i'm going to take a cut of your company the u s steel nippon steel deal trump now has influence over the way they do business right trump announcing before coca cola announcing that they're going to use real cane sugar in their soda from now on do you know what that is when the government

intervenes with business, that's called socialism. That's not free markets. That's not capitalism, right? Even if you think that like, well, you know, maybe the government getting involved in a chipmaker makes sense. Well, why that chipmaker? Think about all the other chipmakers. When the government gets involved in business, it distorts the market.

And if you're a free markets enthusiast, if you are someone who believes in pro-growth business and capitalism, and last I checked, that, was old school Republicans, you did not want your government touching your business. And that's exactly what Trump is doing. So here's a question that I've often wondered about. What on earth is Scott Besant thinking about this? I mean, when he came into Donald Trump's government to take over at Treasury, he seemed like one of the most upstanding normal people in finance. He has a good reputation. People thought that this was a smart, appointment. What is he thinking sitting there next to Donald Trump when Donald Trump makes

these pronouncements about the Fed? He's thinking, I'm Scott Bessent, and people didn't know my name a year and a half ago. And now I get to sit next to the president and meet with him in the Oval Office all day, every day. And Scott Bessent gets to have CEOs call him regularly and quietly beg him to be the voice of reason. And he loves being the quote-unquote voice of reason, because Howard Lutnik certainly isn't. And people, you know, from corporate America, people on Wall Street, continue to look at Scott as they're, you know, saving grace. Remember, it was just a month ago when the story crossed over the weekend that Scott had

convinced Trump do not fire Jay Powell. His term ends in a year, blah, blah, blah. Trump was furious that that headline crossed. Trump said, Scott doesn't tell me what to do. I decide what to do. And then Scott went on TV with cleanup in aisle four. Scott actually, from what my sources tell me, he loves that he's getting calls every day. He's viewed as the grown-up in the room.

And you might say, it's not a room. It's a funny farm. It's an asylum. I think he still really enjoys the power. And who knows, right? Months and months ago, I had heard when there was kind of strife between Scott and Howard Lutnik, I had heard that Scott wanted to be FedShare. And then I heard from people inside of his office, no, no, no, it doesn't want to be Fed Chair.

Absolutely not. Then that was bubbling up yet again a month ago. I think it's a complicated job, but he certainly, I mean, Scott Besson, globetrotting around the world, working with different companies and countries. I think he loves it. But he doesn't seem to be having any impact on Donald Trump, is he? I mean, as the grown up in the room, how is he expressing any nature of grown-upness? Do you know, it's funny, they would all tell you, and I don't know Scott Besson personally, they would all tell you, you know, thank goodness we're here. If we weren't here, things would really be off the rails.

And I'm kind of like, hmm, I don't know that they see. seem pretty far off the rails to me. But I think as far as the asylum go or as far as the inside players go, right? If your choices are Peter Navarro, Howard Lutnik and Scott Bessent, people bet on Scott Besson. Okay, that's fair. Although that seems pretty limited array of choices. So who would, I mean, you raise whether or not he would like to go to the Fed. Who on earth would want to take over after J. Powell? J. Powell, who was, as we constantly remind people, appointed by Donald Trump. Who would want that?

What a poison chalice of a job. I would agree with that. However, power is tasty. I mean, just yesterday, I was asking people, Kevin Warsh is a really qualified guy whose name has been up. We've heard quite a bit that it could be up for FedShare. And when the Lisa Cook thing happened,

I went to someone and I said, does Kevin Warsh really want the job now? And the person just sent me back an emoji of like a who in the hell knows? one would think, no, he doesn't want the job, right? I've said this she before. It's like being a woman who thinks you're going to change that guy who's a complete asshole. You can't change the guy if he's an asshole, even if you're the hottest woman out there.

But everybody likes to believe they're the one who are going to, you know, save the planet. Like, it's power is intoxicated, right? Especially for really wealthy guys because you can have a lot of money, but power is different from money. and DC power is intoxicated. But DC power tempered by Donald Trump is surely not intoxicating. It's actually toxifying. It's funny that you say that. Just this morning, I spoke to someone who was at the most senior, senior levels in investment banking.

He's since retired. And I said to him, would you want this job to be FedShare? And he said right now, absolutely not. And just think about that for a moment, Joanna. Imagine you ran an investment bank and years later you were called upon. You know, you got the call to be the Fed chair or you got the call to be the Treasury secretary. Like in your world of nerddom of financier nerdiness, that's the ultimate, right?

The ultimate. And to think these guys would say, you know what, given the chaos of Trump or the fact that you couldn't be independent, I wouldn't want the job. I get why they wouldn't want it. But isn't that stunning? It is stunning. It's how Donald Trump has impacted those jobs, right? Because he wanted all to be about his decision and his rationale.

And yet this is a boy as man who was a terrible businessman. I mean, just a terrible businessman. I don't know how people in finance actually take him seriously other than he's swinging his legs from the presidential chair. They didn't take him seriously as a business van. But now they take him seriously. and that they're saying, if you can't beat him, join them. Like, I do find it insane that we're not hearing from any business leaders. Like, where is the business roundtable right now?

Where is Jeff Bezos, who during the Biden administration, was very public and outspoken that he didn't think Biden was taking inflation seriously? He didn't think he was handling it well. None of them are saying anything. And I get they've got companies to run. They've got their fiduciaries. They don't want to get on the wrong side of Trump. But how about being on the wrong side of history, right?

Stephanie, hold on one second. We just need to take some messages. And we're back with Stephanie Rule and Trump's attempted takeover of the Federal Reserve Bank. Trump's bullying tactics and his identifying certain CEOs that he appears to want to sort of almost torture appears to be working, doesn't it? It is. It is working in the short term. It's why you don't see other CEOs speaking up or standing up. you know, and then there's others who on their surface, you could say Trump's working them. But is he? Look at Tim Cook, for example, right? Apple was going to be faced with crippling tariffs, crippling tariffs. And Tim Cook rolls up, gives in the gold phone with his name on it, basically talks about production plans that he, that were already in the works and they frame it like they're new. and Trump loves it.

So on one hand, you could say, did Tim Cook, I don't know, emasculate himself, embarrass himself going to the White House with the gold phone? Maybe. Or on the other hand, Tim Cook got himself a sweet-ass deal. It worked for his customers. It worked for his shareholders. It worked for his employees. And he kept on rocking.

What it's bad for is the United States of America. We shouldn't be operating like this. and CEOs are struggling to know how to deal with Donald Trump because if you want something out of him, everything's a deal. He's going to take a pound of flesh. I think it's why Jeff Bezos owns the Washington Post, right? When everybody said, oh, Bezos isn't interested in the Post anymore. He's going to sell the post.

I think Bezos owning the Post is the most valuable thing because Trump cares about it so much. Trump cares about the media and what people say about him far more than he cares about Amazon, Apple or any other business out there. And the fact that Jeff Bezos controls the Washington Post is hugely interesting and enticing to Trump. And I think that's why he continues to own it. And also, I mean, I remember I think Michael Wolf again saying that when he was at Mar-a-Lago, people were saying, how can one get Trump's attention?

How can one get his favor? And they said, well, the Trump team said, well, actually, if you look at what Jeff Bezos has done with the documentary on Melania Trump, i.e. they're paying her $40 million to make a documentary about her life for Amazon television. That's the kind of approach that Donald Trump is looking for. But that's just a fawning approach. Jeff Bezos actually has something on Trump that Trump wants, like, yes, an adoring Melania documentary. Great, Melania superfans are going to watch that.

But the Washington Post, which is considered a highly respected paper of record, to now be far more friendly to Trump, or at least Jeff Bezos being, that's really valuable to Trump. He loves that. And is there any way in which that's bad for Jeff Bezos as the owner of the paper he bought from Don Graham and the famous Graham legacy of Watergate at the Washington Post? Yeah, in every possible way that's bad for Jeff Bezos. I mean, when you are that wealthy, when you're that successful, when you're that powerful, that's when you can be altruistic. that's when you can do things for the good of society, right? But listen, I'm sure as you and I are sitting here talking about Jeff Bezos,

he's probably just waking up in Ibiza. So he's not too worried. You are seeing a president interfere in financial markets, interfere in the Fed's independence. And nobody is saying anything. Man, it must be really nice to be in Europe right now on your last week's vacation. Because if our Federal Reserve really does lose its independence come next quarter, my goodness, what could happen? And sure, does Donald Trump love low interest rates? Yes, because as a businessman, what did he do? He borrowed, he borrowed, he borrowed. That's what he did. And he also went bankrupt over six times. Do we want that to happen to the United States? We want that to happen to the American people? I certainly don't.

Well, I do think a lot of voters out there are probably thinking I would love to move House, but interest rates are too high. Interest rates are high. Is there an argument that actually Donald Trump on this one is right? and they should be coming down. A broken clock is right two times a day. Yes, but Donald Trump's not alone. Jay Powell said it last week. The conditions could be looking ripe that it's time to lower interest rates, right? Absolutely. The Fed wants to create an environment so people can borrow, so people can build businesses,

so people can get a car so they can buy a home. Absolutely. But they have to balance that with inflation. They have to balance that with labor. It's a complicated thing. So it's not just let's make borrowing cheaper for everyone, right? You make everything cheaper to borrow. There's no such thing as free money.

There's consequences on the other side. The subprime crisis wasn't that long ago. So yes, Donald Trump could be right. It's time to lower rates. Jay Powell also could think that. The biggest sticking point standing in the way is the trade war. And I'm pretty sure Donald Trump named himself Mr. Tariff. He did.

He did. And everybody else renamed him Mr. Taco. So where is, we've, we've, Discussed Scott Besson. What about Howard Lutnik? What are people saying about him on Wall Street? People that used to work with him. He had a much more mixed reputation going to work alongside Donald Trump as Commerce Secretary. I mean, listen, Howard Lutnik is an extraordinarily successful guy on Wall Street as a broker, as a deal guy, as a hustler. He is not an economist. He's not even a traditional banker. And he doesn't have a great reputation. He's a really wealthy guy. But we have watched him.

day in and day. I mean, just this, just this week, just yesterday. He was talking about the government taking this stake in Intel and saying, this is how capitalism works. It's, I mean, my son's taking economics 101 as a college freshman. It is the opposite of how capitalism works. And, you know, if you watch the cabinet meeting yesterday, Howard Lutnik was, you know, number one at saying, Mr. President, you are the greatest, cutest, smartest, best president there ever was in the history of So he knows how to serve his audience of one, which is Donald Trump. And he is happy to go on television and say whatever suits the president on that day. And that has proven to be more of a challenge for Scott Besson trying to defend policies that don't make sense.

It was much harder for Scott Besson to defend the trade war when the underlying theories that Trump had didn't make sense. Howard Lattnick is willing to say anything. And how to- He's proven it. Absolutely. How does Howard Lucknake and Scott Bessent get on? You know, I hear multiple things, right? They would say they get along fine.

They would say they get along great. They're coexisting at the same time. I think Scott really enjoys the fact that people on the outside view him as the voice of reason. And he probably enjoys that Howard is willing to say anything that Trump wants him to say. Who knows? I know there's also somewhat of a competition to be closer to the president. Right. So they're all jostling for people.

Because as Michael Wolf is always saying on our Inside Trump's head podcast, this is all about an audience of one. They're performing for one person and his name is Donald Trump. Yes. And we're just going to take a quick pause for a word from our sponsors. Convierte your passion in a business with Shopify and bathe records of ventas with the form of Pago with a better conversion of the world. Has heard of the best. The incredible system of Pago of Shopify facilitates the You're going to buy in your

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And we're back with Stephanie Rule. So we saw the government investment in Intel, which I think

took a lot of people by surprise. Are there other companies you're hearing that they

might be interested in taking a piece of because ultimately this also seems to be about Trump's grift, right? Just yesterday, we heard Howard Lutnik say the Pentagon is looking at defense companies. And that's like, hold on a minute.

Are we now saying because the government has contracts with companies, they should then have a piece of those companies? The government isn't business and it shouldn't be run like a business, right? The government should have more discipline, you could say. that government should keep things tighter and move quicker. We could all support that idea. But the way business operates, right, which is to optimize things for shareholders, for customers, for employees, is different from how government works, which is a safety net to ensure that people are physically safe, socially free, and

financially secure. And when I say financially secure, not giving people a handout. I mean, financially secure, making sure our banking system is functioning. Okay, so you talk to people on Wall Street and they're all freaking out about Mam Darnie, the Democratic Sociality, way ahead in the polls. What are they most afraid of? That he hates them, that he hates them, that he wants to subsidize everything, you know, that he's a Democratic socialist, that he's all about, that he's going to take from them and tax them and everything he stands for is the opposite of, you know, what New York has been built on, right? But I just find it, and I'm not defending Mamdani,

but where I find it just so absurd is that they actually, we have a president who is blowing through the rule of law, who is bullying CEOs, lawyers, media execs, lawmakers, judges. He's bullying anyone, any time for anything, right? Look at the ice raids that are happening across the country, right? where they're going to businesses, they're going to farms, they're going to schools, taking people from their jobs, right? I don't hear any of my Wall Street sources freaking out about that, but they're freaking out about one single guy who could be the mayor of one single city.

And truly the most progressive things, Mamdani is going to want to get done. He's not going to be able to get done because he's got a city council that's going to stop him and a governor that's going to stop him. So I just find it they have their panties in a twist over the, this. And I'm like, he can't even do that much, even if he gets the job. Trump is doing this right in front of our eyes. And you guys are like, well, you know, Trump's just being Trump. So, Stephanie, this is a very gloomy picture that you're painting. Can America withstand three and a half more years of Donald Trump? I don't have a crystal ball. Here's the good news.

Underlying this, we have a strong economy. We have the greatest companies in the world. We've extraordinary innovation happening on the business front. Really good things. Donald Trump is creating absolute chaos. He is reworking the way our government operates. He's trying to reframe the way the global economy is set up. And only time will tell. But is everything being tested right now? More than it ever has in your and my lifetime. That's for sure. Stephanie, we are going to need you to come back. We can give us frequent up. updates on what is happening, whether or not the dollar remains the world's dominant currency, whether or not Scott Bessent and Howard Lucknick can display enough loyalty that they keep their

jobs, because I'm sure there are people circling them to thank you very much for your energy and your time. And you make it all sound so exciting, even when you're painting a picture of extreme gloom and extreme greed and self-interest in Wall Street, you make it all sound so sexy. So that's the greatest country in the world and we are lucky to live here. Yeah, lucky to live here. Lucky to live here. Stephanie Ruhl, thank you very much. And for those who want to see more of you,

they can check in every night on MSNBC and watch you on the 11th hour, which is obligatory watching in my household. Thank you so much. No one talks about this stuff with more energy or insight than Stephanie Ruhl. And of course, Lisa Cook is challenging Donald Trump's attempt to fire her. She's taking him and the government to call. We will be following that story with great.

interest and it's fascinating. It's just, again, another moment in American history that we are trying to understand and pass and bring to you with fresh insight. And if you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to this podcast, The Daily Beast podcast, on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts, Apple, Spotify, etc. Leave us a comment on YouTube too. And you can sign up for the podcast.

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