The Daily Beast Podcast - Why Unrelenting Epstein Leaks Terrify Trump: Wolff

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

Michael Wolff joins Joanna Coles to dig into the one fear that continues to dog Donald Trump, the lingering specter of Jeffrey Epstein. As new oversight leaks reveal redacted names and unreleased evidence, Wolff explains why the Epstein files continue to rattle Trump and shape his thinking. They explore how this aversion affects his decisions, fuels his late-night rants, and exposes cracks in Trumpworld’s loyalty. Why do Epstein’s secrets haunt Trump, and what do his international allies and enemies know? Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

But let's go back to Epstein. Let us go back to Epstein. So never forget. Okay, let's go back to Epstein and the emails that came out from the oversight committee also last Friday. So Trump was over here trying to do this with Zelensky. Meanwhile, the oversight committee were distributing emails. Yeah, and I'm not sure where they come from. I think this must have been a leak from somewhere.

I mean, and you can't tell who's leaking. The Democrats are leaking, the Republicans are leaking. So what is inside Trump's head when the, so there's Trump. He's got Putin. He's got Zelensky on the line. He's shouting at Zelensky. And all the time there is the drumbeat of the Oversight Committee and the Epstein files. All of this is better.

Everything else that is going on, good or bad, shut down Ukraine, Zelensky, the people, peace making, peace collapsing. All of this is better for Trump than Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. Okay, so we haven't even discussed where we're going today. Because I'm not saying that anymore. Okay, you're not saying that we're going inside Trump's head. But I will say, again, that we do go inside Trump's head because that is the only place.

from which you can really understand what is going on today in American politics. You can't understand it from the floor of Congress. You can't understand it from the various agencies. You can't understand it from any policy position. You can't understand it through the eyes of any other person in the American government. It's all from one guy. All from one guy. And we're on, I think, day 20 of the government shut up.

down, which people seem to have stopped talking about. You know, again, and this should be the biggest story. It should be a story that gets bigger and bigger and bigger every day. Instead of, and this is what's been happening, it gets smaller and smaller. So what is that about? Well, it's partly, again, Trump's brilliance in, distracting. Then it is also, I think, the intractable nature.

Nobody knows really how to talk about this because there is no, you know, these things usually happen, these shutdowns, it's a negotiation. You can't keep the government, you can't keep the government shut. So somebody, something has to give. That's the dynamic that one would. that the media would be reporting on. But at this moment, it certainly seems that nobody has the wherewithal to give. Now, this will meaningfully start to impact the American economy from now.

I mean, and a large impact. I mean, an impact in a way that from the Trump point of view, I mean, the one thing as we look toward the midterms that could significantly destabilize his ability to compete in November is an economy that goes seriously south. Right. Michael, can I comment on your suit? Please. It's very smart. Thank you.

I would say, however, more of a spring vibe. and we are heading into fall. You mean it's a goshery too light for this season? Maybe, or maybe it's just clinging onto the last vibes of summer. Well, that it is, but I feel it's actually

an all-weather suit. Could you wear it to the White House? When was the last time you went to the White House? You know, I was just trying to think about that in light of the fact that they are tearing down the White House. Tearing it down. And I think it was in probably 2019, I think.

Okay, so you didn't go up there under Joe Biden? Never once, never an invitation. That's the thing about the Democrats. It is actually one of the interesting things. Say what you want about the Trump White House and we do. That it is, has always. seem to me remarkably accessible. Open for business.

You know, and I remember when I was, you know, when I first in the, in 2017, when I literally on day two of the White House knocked on the door and was led in for seven months or so with hardly any questions ever asked. And I, I discussed this. Did you need a security pass for it? Yeah, they gave you a little pass and you walked through. I mean, it was not more difficult than getting onto a college campus.

Actually, Columbia, since the protest, has become more difficult. Interesting. Interesting. But I once related this to somebody in the Obama White House who was kind of amazed by this. And this person, a high-up person in the Obama

White House, said, if you had come to us, we would have asked for a proposal. We would have raised. everything you would have written, we would have had many meetings about it, and then we would have said no. Right. So there you go. That's the difference.

The Trump people clearly had never read what I had written, and they never thought twice about it. And suddenly I'm in, and everyone assumed I should be there. Well, and also when you were covering the last election, so 2024, weren't you with a group of journalists and Trump suddenly materialized and he pointed at you and he said, I made you rich. Exactly, exactly. And then even within the White House, you could basically go into the Oval Office. The Oval Office was filled often with dozens of people, two dozen more, three dozen, people just sort of sitting there, like a bus station, listening to Trump who sat behind the desk, pontificating, giving as though an endless monologue. Well, they're not ripping out the

West Wing, they're ripping out the East Wing, which is traditionally the First Lady's territory, but the First Lady's not there. Well, this operates on a metaphor on so many levels. Obviously, the first that he is tearing down the White House. And in so many ways, he is tearing down what we understand to be the job and the function and the of of what the White House does. That it is the pillar of democracy. It represents democracy. It represents everyone in the country, the people's house. And then also the peculiarities of this marriage and,

and Melania, this is, as you say, traditionally where the first lady conducts her business, but this first lady is seldom in the White House. Right. And when she is there, as you say, and we frequently refer to, she's treated as a guest. But there is something shocking, not least because Donald Trump said he wasn't actually going to knock anything down. He said we won't be doing that. This is just going to be an addition. but there is something shocking about watching those bulldozers at play and the sort of, you know, the wires sticking out of the walls and everything and realizing, oh, this is a big change,

and he is physically going to change the White House. Not only is he ripped up Jackie Kennedy's Rose Garden and paved it down, which is like the Joni Mitchell song, right, and Mara Lagoed it with umbrellas, but now we're getting the ballroom. No, and I think it's going to be interesting to see what this picture means. Remember, reality changes when there is a picture of it. And I just can't, I mean, listen.

Do you mean the actual photos of it? Yes, yes. And, you know, I mean, I've said this, you know, a thousand times that I cannot, I just can't see how people cannot look at this over, that people cannot look at what Trump has done and react viscerally. and emotionally and negatively to it, but somehow they have not. But this is so in your face.

I mean, he has ripped out a piece of the White House. And he is replacing it with a ballroom that is 90,000 square feet, which is, I think, double the size of the White House. I mean, he's literally changing the entire footprint and, of course, he's building his triumphant arc. I'm not sure what his triumphs are, but his arc that he wants to go across the Potomac

facing the Lincoln Memorial. So not only is he, as you say, this is a great metaphor for what's going on, but he's physically changing the city to of D.C. You know, I mean, for summary, from all of the things that I have seen, and I have now seen a lot in these past, 10 Trump years.

This is the one thing, this is one thing that has really in the moment grabbed me. And it just sends that message. This is he's going to do anything he wants and he's going to rip it out and it's going to be violent. And he's rebuilding it in his own image stuck in 1965 with his stupid chandeliers. So we will never. escape this guy? No, because even when he passes or leaves office, there will be a massive footprint. That's what he's doing. And you say that people don't care and things, but they do

care. I mean, there were seven million people out at the No Kings Parade on Saturday. Well, yeah, well, let's look at that. They obviously care, and yet here we are. And so the quality of caring or the quality of resistance is somehow clearly not meeting the moment. Well, what would you have it do? What would you, what would be better? I mean, aren't people just leaning into, we've got one year to go until the midterms? Yeah, possibly.

but I can answer that. I mean, I have an answer to that, but I suddenly just now found myself hesitating on the answer because what I would say is you want to bring a level of disruption that the government, the president, the government cannot ignore. But with that second of thinking that, I thought they could actually, they could prosecute me for saying that. Okay, well, we don't want them prosecuting you.

But it's that thing. So, and I think throughout everywhere, people who are in a public position, making public statements in the media, are having that second of hesitation. Well, you saw we're recording this on Tuesday afternoon and John Brown. Brennan is about to be indicted. I think we are going down a list of opponents of the president who will be indicted. Obviously, we've already indicted James Comey, the former director of the FBI, Leticia James, the Attorney General of New York.

And Adam Schiff hasn't been indicted yet, but they are all on this list. And of course, John Bolton has been indicted. So it's one after the other, after the other. Where does that end? Well, you know, I mean, that's an interesting question because I think every indictment emboldens him to indict someone further. So the question is, so James Comey has been indicted. I cannot see in any realm of logic how this is not thrown out.

that it hardly ever gets to a court. It's certainly not going to get to a trial. What happens then when these obviously politically motivated indictments, improper indictments, what happens when they are thrown out? How does he react? We know that the career attorneys didn't want to bring the case either against John Bolton or against Tish James or against James Comey. And they've all been fired or left or quit.

So Lindsay Halligan was brought in, as you've pointed out on this podcast, no prosecutorial experience. I want to go further on that. A non-entity, and I mean a non-entity in the literal sense, she doesn't really exist except as a name, a body. She has no, no authority, no free will, no function really, except for, to be the stand-in for the president himself who was ordering these indictments. Well, when you talk to people at the White House, do they think these charges are going to stick? No, in fact, I would, I would say.

I mean, you know, the attitude and the affect of the people in the White House is we go along. This is this is what's happening. He does what he does. This is his show. And we have no comment on it. And so has anybody thought around the corner in terms of what happens if it doesn't stick against James Comey? He's just let out. Trump moves on. The caravan moves on. Yeah. I mean, because in every instance now for many, many years, that's what's happened. I mean, much of what Trump wants and much of what he tries to get, and much of what he announces that he has gotten actually just falls by the wayside,

and we move on to the next thing. So perhaps we move on to the next indictment, or the indictment is thrown out, and then they refile it in some other way or appeal the decision. They run out the clock, which is what he traditionally has done. we just keep it going.

So what happens if he falls back on his old habits and decides against paying the people that are doing the construction work for the new ballroom? I know that he's been soliciting payments from all sorts of American companies. So we assume he's already gathered the money to pay people. But one of his habits is not to pay workmen. Yeah, no, I think it's, I think, I think if you work for, for Donald Trump, you do that at your own risk, understanding the possibility, the likelihood that you won't get paid. Now, I mean, I think people probably have a way of rationalizing that.

They may even have knowing that this could happen. They may also have a way of figuring out how to get paid, which is to say you, you know, you build. for this and you get it up front. I mean, I don't know. I certainly would hope that somebody has thought this through. But, you know, the relationship of anybody who works for Donald Trump to Donald Trump is fraud. I mean, if you look at the long history of the first administration, most of the people who went to work for Donald Trump got screwed in the end, if not themselves indicted or if not publicly embarrassed or publicly fired. Well, it's astonishing how many people that worked for him ended up going to jail.

I mean, Roger Stone, Michael Cohen, Steve Bannon, Peter Navarro. Right. No. I mean, they not only, they not only, um, yeah. Alan Weisselberg. Across the board, everybody, it's an unhappy ending for almost anyone who works for Donald Trump except save who Jared Kushner. Jared Kushner back on a plane to the Middle East to resolve, well, to resolve what's

going on there. Right. Now, up until, I mean, there's a change from the first administration to this administration in that, in fact, a surprising number of people have now stayed there since they came into office nine months ago. And this is part, that's a measure of how abject they are, how the fact that they themselves are like Lindsay Halligan, nonentities. They just fill the spot and they are not really to do there to do anything, certainly not to challenge him or even engage with him in any meaningful way. So at least they're going to have to walk through a construction site to get to the White House cabinet meetings now.

I mean, they're going to be bothered by drilling and jackhammering and dust and all the things that go on when you're having construction. I wonder if this is going to cost like New York construction twice the estimate and take twice as long. Well, it'd be interesting to see, you know, because he does pride himself. and I understand from a lot of people who have crosspass with him and worked with him and been in the real estate business and come to hate him, of course, but at least to see how he operates, that he is capable of staying on budget in construction projects.

Oh, that's interesting. Very interesting. And in the meantime, he's sending out memes of himself as a fighter pilot, But interestingly, holding the mask not above his nose, where I think it's supposed to go, his nose and mouth only above his mouth, and flying across New York City, dropping shit on everybody. With a crown on his head, and I noticed one of our commenters, because in our last episode, we took exception, you took exception,

to the name of the protest, no kings, no kings. protests. And a commenter pointed out that actually this gives him the wherewithal to actually be the king, claim to be the king, to embrace that. And it's a funny, funny thing because that is in a way what he is selling. I'm the king. I'm the emperor. Yeah. So Gavin Newsom then responded with another AI video of himself flying a fighter jet over January the 6th's protesters throwing shit at them. Thoughts? Do you think that Donald Trump has a team of young people doing this, or they might not even be young? Is this what Barron's doing as he's hanging out in D.C.? Does he have a team of people putting these together? Well, I know that, I mean, I know, I, I, I,

I know that during the campaign that there was a kind of ad hoc decentralized group of, of, you know, fat guys in their parents' basement as Trump once. Right, 400 pounds, I think he said. Who were creating these memes independently. And then as they started to come out more and more and more, with a special effectiveness against Ron DeSantis, then the White House started to corral them in some sense. But it really was an ad hoc kind of thing that grew up with enormous effectiveness.

Okay, but now it feels like it's being deployed much more specifically. Yeah, I don't know who is doing this, but I would imagine that some of the same 400, pound guys are yet doing this. Okay, well, we should find out. Can you ask your friends at the White House? I can. The jackhammering White House, what's going on?

Because it would be useful, it would be useful to know. And they're certainly increasing. And they also seem, I mean, we, we, I talked to Dr. John Gartner, who we've had on the Daily Beast podcast before, I talked to him for an interview that we're going to run later this week. And he was saying that as people get, as people with dementia, as their dementia develops, one of the things that they have is they lose a sense of decorum, they become coarser, they become disinhibited.

And so sending out a video of yourself, unloading a load of shit over New York City, is something that feels very in line with someone who's no longer 100% with it. Yeah, I don't know about that. I mean, this seems extremely strategic to me. and something that a guy with his finger on the cultural pulse, as weird as it might seem, would do with great effectiveness. And the fact that this is all, everybody's talking about this. And it sends a clear message, a clear message that everyone is talking about.

I'm the king. I don't care about this. I embrace whatever you're saying about me. I embrace it. And then I can dump shit on you. And once again, a message. We love our sponsors, but now we're back discussing, well, kind of everything.

So he's had a setback this week in terms of his role as peacemaker, because Vladimir Putin has suddenly said, I don't want to meet you for the time being. Well, I think he's had a number of setbacks. First thing, the ceasefire in Gaza seems at best fragile and possibly having already fallen apart. So, you know, the peace that no one could achieve for 3,000 years, according to Donald Trump now, has fallen apart.

And he achieved a piece. he achieved a piece for 10 days. Well, he did, and his deal maker, son-in-law and friend Steve Wickoff golfing buddy, who, as they said to the New York Times, the reason they were able to do this instead of the tedious old history professors that are the usual diplomats are because they're real estate deal guys. Right, and also because they did not make a deal. Well, we don't know if they made a deal because there's no records of it.

They had a 20-point plan, but we only knew the first. five points of the plan and then they've been put back on a plane to sort out the next five points. We know at least publicly that there was a long plan here and we know what that Hamas has only agreed to a few points of it, not the other points, critical points not agreed to, laying down of arms, et cetera, et cetera. In fact, they seem to be quite doing the opposite of shooting everybody. Well, and the Israelis are responding. At this point, yeah, exactly.

So that's how you make a deal. You make a deal by not making a deal. Nobody really has to agree to anything. And that is customary in the real estate business. We just go forward and then we sue each other later. So maybe there is logic to how you create peace in the Middle East. But that's not his only problem in this, in, you know, in Trump diplomacy.

You know, he did, there was this, this weird succession of, of, of, of gambits about, about Ukraine. So he was going to send, I mean, he came back from the, from the Middle East, the peacemaker. So now I'm going to make, that was fun. So now I'm going to make peace in Ukraine. How am I going to do that? I'm going to give them Tomahawk missiles. and then they can just fire them at Russia, and then Russia will come to the table,

will accede to be a reasonable about this because we're giving them tomahawks. And then he calls up Putin and out of that conversation, no tomahawks because Putin says what to him? I don't know, whatever Putin supposedly has on Donald Trump, he may have played that card because Trump comes out of that phone call

and he's back on Putin's side. So I'm on Zelensky's side. Now I call Putin. Now I'm back on Putin's side. I get, and then I get Zelensky to come to the White House. This was just what... Friday. Friday.

And Zelensky, who's coming to pick up his tomahawks, by the way, suddenly finds himself in the White House with Trump saying, saying, we're going to end this war because you're going to surrender. Right. And then when Zelensky says, well, Mr. President, no, I'm not Mr. President. And then Trump has a hissy fit. So I'm already exhausted by wherever this. Well, and also what's interesting is that they didn't do the usual press conference, right?

They went off to have a private meeting. And in fact, the Financial Times had a very interesting piece suggesting that the two of them were shouting at each other behind closed doors because Zelensky is absolutely not giving in and giving up the Dombas. And Trump is saying this is what you have to do to get peace. You have to do it the Russian way. Otherwise, they're going to just trounce you. Yeah, no. And props to the FT, forgetting this story. As a matter of fact, I don't think I've read this story in the New York Times yet.

I mean, it doesn't really change anything, which is the other interesting thing. that happens in Trump's diplomacy. Nothing really changes. And then he proceeds to, from whatever, whatever kind of moment of, of, of you can't, whatever you can't believe at moment there is.

Then he loses interest in it. Right. You could almost tell he'd lost interest in the peace in the Middle East by the time he'd walked off that a hastily erected sort of dais in the hotel that looked like a sort of, of corporate, you know, a corporate event where you were meeting the head of sales and things, and you had all these kind of, a couple of European leaders, and then you had Middle Eastern

leaders. And then Trump sort of by the end of it, he'd had enough, he'd sated himself with the glory he wanted, and he kind of wandered off. No, and the, the, having Zelensky in the White House and having this, you know, yelling at him and demanding he surrender is literally no different than when was that? That was last. February? when Zelensky came for the first time and J.D. Vance shouted it.

Right, right. So the same thing. We've just enacted the thing. Nothing has changed since then. Does anything change after this? Probably not. Well, he had the Putin summit in Alaska in the summer to draw attention away from the resurgence of the Jeffrey Epstein story, right?

That went absolutely nowhere. And now Putin just must be rocking back and forth laughing, isn't he, at Donald Trump trying to do this? Or is he dug in? because obviously the war hasn't gone as fast as he would have hoped. You mean Putin? Putin, yeah, didn't I say Putin? What did I say?

Well, you said he, so I was just... Oh, sorry, I meant Putin. I thought Putin must be laughing at Trump trying to get this organized. No, well, I mean, I think Putin is going to be frustrated too because he is now counting on Trump to get Ukraine to surrender. Basically. I mean, so Putin has called up Trump, told him, reminded him what he has on him. The compromise. Yes. And given him an order.

While chatting to Melania, while back channeling to Melania. Yes. Yes. And then so Trump gets off the phone and then he has to order. Zalinski to surrender and Zalinski says no. So now Trump's caught in the middle. Yes, Trump is caught in the middle. Putin is irritated. And the Europeans are thinking we're going to have to pony up more for our own defense and we're going to have to give Zelensky some more air cover.

Which they are going to have to do. And Zalinski, of course, is in a terrible position. I mean, this is not good. This is not good for anyone, actually, which we forget because it kind of, because Trump loses interest, so we lose interest or the media loses interest. So you can't keep your eye on this ball because there are so many other balls, of course. Right. And least of all the Russian men who are being sent like fodder to the front lines and the brave Ukrainians trying to hold on to their territory. But let's go back to Epstein. Let us go back to Epstein So never forget Okay let's go back to Epstein

And the emails that came out From the Oversight Committee Also last Friday, busy day So Trump was over here Trying to do this with Zelensky Meanwhile the Oversight Committee Were distributing emails

Yeah and I'm not sure Where they come from I mean they seem to have come from The Oversight Committee allowed to do that Just to hand out emails I don't think so. So I think this must have been a leak from somewhere. I mean, and you can't tell who's leaking.

The Democrats are leaking, the Republicans are leaking. And then the other interesting thing about this, I mean, it's not just emails. First thing, it's a lot of diary entries. And I know this is because I appear in a variety of places in these diaries. I mean, it doesn't say it just sort of identifies who he's meeting with at a given time. But one of the interesting things about this is who appears, as I say, I appear, and who is redacted. So there will be instances of, you know, 9 a.m. August, such and such, meeting with Michael Wolf and redact.

So who's figured out of who to redact? How do you get your name redacted? Well, you know, I'm not sure anybody quite knows. So somewhere in there, there's a kind of trade-offs, I'd say, or somebody's trading out. And I get the feeling that it may be, I mean, I know some of the people whose names are redacted. And so how did I'm thinking,

how did their names get redacted? And I have a feeling that the Democrats probably redact and the Republicans probably redact. It's probably, okay, if you're going to redact that person, we're going to redact this person. I don't know what grounds. If any grounds, other than you're my friend, you're my friend. I don't know.

I mean, I've made inquiries, and I'm not getting an answer. If anybody knows the answer, I would love to hear it. Yeah, there must be someone out there listening who may know why the names are being redacted from these emails and from the diaries. Yeah, and on what basis? Because a lot of names are not being redacted. So what are the names that you spotted that you were surprised by, or that you think

other people will be surprised by? I mean, most of the names are already public, and maybe they're. That's the, maybe that's the measure. Well, we know that person has spoken to Jeffrey Epstein, so we're not going to redact. But shouldn't we know the other people also? I don't, I don't know. This is a, this is, I mean, there are several mysteries. Where do these emails come from?

Well, where does this material? Don't they come from the estate? No, no, no. this is from the Oversight Committee. I mean, I think that there's that there's material coming from several different sources. I mean, some of the material we know that has come through the estate, but the material that has come from the state has come from the estate through the Oversight Committee. So, I mean, the estate is not just leaking willy-nilly.

No, no, but I meant. So the oversight committee can ask the estate for information. It's also asking the FBI for information. Right? Yeah, and I don't think the estate would have this information. In other words, all of this information, date books, et cetera, et cetera, anything that was in digital form, was taken by the FBI. So the FBI have access to all his diaries, so they know who was at his house and they know when? The FBI has access to whatever they took from his house, from his various houses shortly after he was arrested. But if the FBI took his computers and various items that were on his desk and everything,

there must have been all sorts of things they perhaps didn't take, which people who worked for Jeffrey Epstein knew, because he assumed at some point he would be raided by the FBI, to hide in other places. Who has that stuff? Well, if it's hidden, we wouldn't know who has it. And if it's not hidden that would have been required, the FBI would have required that it to be turned over. But how would they necessarily know to look for stuff? Well, that's why I'm saying. If it's hidden, we don't know because it's hidden. But if it's not hidden, then the FBI would come pick it up.

Okay, this is very confusing. So we basically have no idea and we need to find out what the rules are of the oversight. Committee distributing material they have gotten about Jeffrey Epstein from the FBI. Yes, we should make a call and ask them. And maybe ask them too, who gets redacted. Yeah, and why they get redacted. Okay, so watch this space on Jeffrey Epstein, but he's sure as hell as going away. Okay, I'm going to toss to our sponsors. Convierte your passion in a business with Shopify and bathe records of

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a market and Michael and I are back and we're we're still inside Trump's head. So what is inside Trump's head when the, so there's Trump. He's got Putin. He's got Zelensky on the line. He's shouting at Zelensky. And all the time,

there is the drumbeat of the oversight committee and the Epstein farce. All of this is better. Everything else that is going on, good or bad, shut down Ukraine, Zelensky, the peace, peace-making, peace-collapsing, all of this is better for Trump than Epstein, Epstein. So whatever happens from Trump's point of view, it's, well, okay, that may be bad. At least it's not Epstein. And, in fact, it's good because it distracts from Epstein. There was a curious piece in The Times at the weekend about, Leon Black, the co-founder of Apollo, the big private equity group,

and a series of emails that Jeffrey Epstein had sent to him increasingly frantic, I think, demanding monies, saying, you know, my average fee for you is $40 million. You don't seem to want to pay it this year. I want $25 million up front, otherwise I'm not going to do your taxes for you, whatever he was actually doing for him. What did you make of those? I mean, no secret that he had been an advisor to Leon Black. But the emails felt intimate and annoyed and interesting.

Well, let's also just establish the context that, you know, Leon Black is a Trump supporter largely. There was a moment in which in the first administration where Trump was going to make him the Treasury Secretary. So there's a very close Trump relationship there with Apollo, with Black, with, black, with with the head of Apollo. But the emails, they did feel intimate. They really felt like you were up close to seeing a dispute about money, which, as we all know, those kinds of disputes, especially at this level of money, get very rank.

Right. I was trying to imagine what it would be like to be Leon Black receiving those emails from Jeffrey Epstein. Well, the question is, were they threatening? They seem to be a little threatening, didn't they? Well, which would be, you know, that's what people do when they, you know, when they feel they have not been paid what they've owed, they get threatening. Is it just that or is there something actual, is there an actual threat? If you don't do this, I'm going to, because I know, I don't know what these things are. I mean, part of this relationship, part of, I mean, Leon Black has always maintained that he was paying Jeffrey Epstein for, important financial services that had saved him an enormous amount of money.

Well, in the emails, Jeffrey Epstein alludes to the fact that he saved him between $1.5 and $2 billion. Right. Now, a lot of... He got paid, I think, upward of $156 billion. Right. No, a lot of people have said, well, that's ridiculous. I mean, Jeffrey Epstein, you know, didn't go to college. What could he do?

I mean, I've always found that a little kind of, you know, the thing that, you know, people who went to good colleges say, hey, go to college. I mean, I mean, it's certainly, certainly their relationship, which I saw, I was privy to seeing in quite a number of instances was a close relationship. Leon Black clearly valued Jeffrey Epstein's advice, even if Jeffrey Epstein didn't go to college. So there may actually have been genuine value there, even if he didn't go to college. But then the other thing is, and this is also mostly out in the open at this point, is that Leon, non-black had had clear problems. Let me think how to characterize it. Clearly, he was involved with several women who were,

who were, these were not, these were relationships, problematic relationships. Well, and problematic relationships and that he appeared to be paying these women off, or he was certainly paying them large sums of money. Exactly. And so how did Jeffrey Epstein figure into that? Did he figure into that? I mean, these are all questions that are not answered,

but certainly raised in the context of trying to understand this relationship. Or at the same time, it may just be, you know, he was owed money and he was pissed that he wasn't getting it. So where did those emails come from? Well, where do we know that they're from? There was a large cache of emails that Bloomberg had. But this was, the New York Times had these emails. So they came for, we don't know where the New York Times.

So someone is distributing Jeffrey Epstein emails across the media. Yes. Now, there is people believe, some people believe, that the emails, that the emails, that the, that Bloomberg got were a hack by a state hack. But I think the more interesting thing is the idea that this was the result of a hack by a foreign state. I don't know if that's true. I do know that people who are intimately involved in this, in trying to understand the Epstein matter, believe.

that that's where those emails came from. Well, and we know that Iran hacked John Bolton's AOL account. Oh, no. I mean, certainly is possible. Oh, of course it's possible. Right. Very interesting. All right. So where does this leave us? The Oversight Committee is continuing to do its work with Epstein. Frustrated by the shutdown, which is another aspect of the shutdown. The shutdown is not good. but as in all things, it is to the extent that it frustrates the Epstein investigation. It is a silver lining for Trump.

And Mike Johnson is still refusing to swear in Adelita Greer from Congresswoman from Arizona, who won in a special election, and who would tip Thomas Massey and Roe-Kana's demand to have the Epstein files released. but that's in limbo until Mike Johnson swears her in. Yeah, no, I mean, the Epstein investigation remains in limbo, which is, I suppose, good for Trump, but on the other hand, bad because it just lingers on. Right, it's going to happen. Epstein Epstein.

And Marjorie Taylor Green is on it too, Epstein, Epstein, Epstein. I mean, it is he can get by, as we have said many times and should continue to say he can apparently get by everything but this. Michael. Joanna. From Elizabeth Barbaris, who's in the UK. Question, where is all the money that isn't paying government wages during this shutdown going now? Well, a very good question.

And like most government money, the money doesn't really exist. So all of this, they, I mean, this is exactly what this is about. The government has to agree. The Congress has to agree to fund the government. Right. So Congress is the funding mechanism. It will have to borrow money or redirect money that is, that it has already borrowed.

Remember, the United States government is the biggest deficit financier of all time. And the money isn't sitting in escrow. just because it's not being paid. It hasn't yet been agreed upon. Yes. Okay. Now, here's a question. If Maxwell's granted clemency or a pardon, how safe will she be on the outside, regardless of financial assets? I think that's a good question. I think that's a terrible question. Well, it's from Laura C. 56. I apologize. Laura, I thought it was a good question because if I were Gillen Maxwell, I would be terrified of leaving you. But then ask her, we don't know. This is a woman who wrapped her. cell phone in tin foil to avoid the FBI.

Yes, it does sound like she's not exactly prepared for reality, but maybe she is now. Maybe she's learned all kinds of things. And she may just be sitting there because you think the deal's been done and she may just be sitting there waiting. Yeah. You know, in six months' time, she'll slip out the back door. But we don't know how safe she will be or how secure she will be. and we don't know.

Well, we know that she's in a minimum security prison camp in Texas, where she was moved from Tallahassee by the number two in the Justice Department after the birthday letters, which you said were a shot across the bow, leaked by her family, were spotted by Donald Trump. Right, and she is apparently well protected in prison now. I mean, to a degree that is, somewhat disruptive to the rest of the prison because I suppose the

the Trump administration really can't afford to lose her. No, absolutely not, Jeffrey. Epstein, Epstein. Okay, someone here is saying, did Epstein and Madoff know each other? It's actually a pretty good question because they must have come across each other at New York events.

Yeah, you know, and I'm, I'm, I'm loath to say that I had this discussion with Jeffrey Epstein, and I cannot remember what he said. Right. I thought they might have both come across, you know, being a Temple Immanuel or something. I mean, without question. And no, that's a good question. And I'm going to go back on that.

I may have a note on that somewhere. We've got lots of comments on the fact that. we said, or perhaps it was me that said, that no king's protest felt like a negative name. You said it's given him the opportunity to take the mantle of the king. Did you go to a no king's protest? I did. I was in the city over the weekend. Did you go to the one in Times Square? Yeah, yeah. No, on 7th Avenue, yeah.

Okay, and thoughts? Well, it's a lot of people. I mean, I'm always like a pro. protests like, okay. Well, I don't like crowds. I get too near this. But it was, no, I think everybody, it was a, and that's one of the interesting things about these protests. It was a totally good mood protest.

And my 10-year-old daughter was delighted to cross paths with this protest. Well, and amazingly few arrests, no arrests in, I think, D.C., no arrests in New York. Incredible. I mean, it is a peaceful protest. It is a, you know, I mean, it seemed, and that was, so this is the weird thing about it. It seems celebratory. And I think what people are celebrating is, is the fact that people are coming out to say, hey, this is, there's something bad going on here in a big way. But it's a weird message because it's, it doesn't see.

We should talk to, we want to talk to the organizers of the No Kings Parade. If you happen to know them, please will you ask them to get in touch with us? We will get in touch with you because we do want to talk to you. And we do think there is an offshoot, which is a release the Epstein's file protest. I want 10 million people in Washington, D.C. Yeah, I would, I would come to that. I would come to that. All right.

And then Laura El Carver, I've got lots of Laura's writing. I agree and disagree with Michael. I'm only a few minutes into the podcast. But I think it's important that Trump supporters in different corners of the U.S. see their neighbors don't support what's going on in numbers around the corner or at their state capitals. No doubt 7 to 10 million people marching on Washington would send a message more directly to Trump. But I think they would put tons of barriers up, send in the guard, try to characterize it as an insurrection, and be more successful at that, which is a perfectly legit point.

perfectly legit. And everything Laura Lachava says here, I agree with. So we don't have to disagree. And Laura, take that to the bank because I never get an agreement with Michael. A lot of people pointed out that it would be

expensive for people to have to go to D.C. And that you were being a bit privileged white male assuming that everybody could stay in a hotel or fly in or take a train. There are not 10 million hotel rooms in Washington, D.C. but that's the point of it. That's the point of this, that you have to create a statement that's truly meaningful, that's not easy, that people do this to overcome all hardships to do this because that's how important it is.

All right, well, Michael, you've come in from your lovely Hampton's home to the inside Trump's head studio. It's now time for you to. flee. We will see you on, when are we back? Thursday. Thursday it is. Thursday. And I think we have a specific topic for Thursday. Do I know what it is? I think it might be Stephen Miller. Oh, Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller has got a lot of power. Stephen Miller has got a lot of power. Yeah. Okay. Stephen Miller it is on Thursday. If you have been, thank you for joining us. Don't forget to subscribe to the Daily Beast. Please leave us a comment. Push the button. Push the button. to join our membership community where you get access to Michael and me and our staff.

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