The Daily Beast Podcast - Will Rudy Giuliani Actually Be Held Accountable for His Alleged Criming?

Episode Date: April 29, 2021

Feds raided Rudy Giuliani’s New York City apartment on Wednesday in regards to his dealings in Ukraine, but the question many folks have, including The New Abnormal listeners, is whether he will actually be held accountable for his alleged criminal activity? In this bonus episode of The New Abnormal LIVE, Molly Jong-Fast and Jesse Cannon spoke with Daily Beast White House reporter Scott Bixby and Daily Beast politics editor, Matt Fuller, about the former Trump crony, the chances of Ron DeSantis or Trump running for president in 2024 and why liberals are drinking the John Boehner Kool-Aid. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello and welcome to the new abnormal live. I am producer Jesse Cannon. I'm so psyched you can join us today for the one year anniversary of the new abnormal and also to celebrate over 20 million downloads, which I want to thank you all so much for. I want to first let you know that there's a chat function as well as a Q&A function where you can ask questions and vote up the ones you'd like us to answer and we'll choose from some of those as well as some questions that were submitted beforehand. To start things off, though, we have a fun poll.

that I'd love for you all to answer. And then I'm going to let you know what we're going to be discussing today. So first off, we'll be discussing the words from President Joe Biden, Tim Scott's pathetic retort to it, and of course the person who's experiencing the opposite of a glow-up one, Rudolph Giuliani. So I want to introduce first, new abnormal host, the one, the only Molly Jong fast.

How you doing today, Molly? I'm good. I can't see you because I have the poll in front of me. here we go. Oh, okay. I'm good. I'm excited to be here. Very fun.

I'm happy to have everyone here. And I'm really excited about our two special celebrity guests. Yes. So let me introduce them. We have senior politics editor for the Dillie Beast Matt Fuller over here. Matt, how you doing? Good. Making it.

Nice. As well as White House reporter for the Dillie Beast, Scott Bixies. Scott, how are you doing? Howdy, doing well? Awesome. So I am very psyched. to kick this off. So one of the first questions I want to do is, Molly, the listeners want to know, do Republicans deny your request to talk to you or do you not pursue them often?

So we did get one Republican. It was very excited. We've had two now. We had Adam Kinsinger, but I got that by like handling Eric Swalwell because it turns out Eric Swalwell was good friends with Adam Kinsinger. So I got Adam, I got Eric. to give me Adam's cell phone number, and then I just berated him into coming out to the podcast. So we did have one elected Republican, and I thought he was great and very reasonable. And then we had another guy

who's running against Marjorie, Taylor Green, in the primary. But yeah, they don't want to come on. Shockingly, they don't want to come on. And also, I would say, like, I don't know that listeners love it. Like, we had Andrew Yang, who's not a Republican, but also not totally a Democrat.

and people didn't love it. So, but yeah, if you guys have a great Republican you want on the podcast, send me a DM because I've opened DMs. So next we have an interesting question that I'd love to pose to the group, which is how do you foresee the 2020 census results redrawing the political representation of the house?

That's a good one. Matt Fuller, you want to go first? Sure. I mean, we have a, we now know, at least as of this week, which states are losing and which states are gaining. I guess the big surprise was actually the states that weren't gaining as much. Texas was on the bubble for three seats. Florida was on the bubble for two seats.

And it looks like a lot of the, maybe some of the Hispanic populations didn't grow as much, or at least weren't as counted as much, this time around. So, yeah, you know, you have the traditional things you're losing. California's losing a seat this time, first time and a long time. New York's losing a seat. A lot of the Michigan, you know, a lot of the Rust Belt, West Virginia is losing a seat. So a lot of those, you know, we're realigning things a little bit.

Again, the big trend here has been the exodus from the Rust Belt a little bit to those sort of sunnier states. But, you know, I don't think this really changes too much. It really, the question is how are these, how are they going to be drawn? And that is still sort of up in the air. in a lot of these respects, you know, just because New York is losing a seat doesn't mean that's going to be a Democratic seat. Definitely a possibility that you could redraw with the legislature there. You could redraw it so that it's actually more beneficial to Democrats. But it's an open question.

We know sort of what the landscape looks like a little bit, but until you actually draw the seats and we see who kind of got gerrymandered out or what's sort of in play, it's not going to be much of a factor. you know, the bigger thing here is, is the overall sort of political wins where they're at, where they're at in 2022. And, you know, that definitely remains to be seen. Can I just ask one more follow-up question? I saw that it looked sort of the reporting I saw that it looked like Democrats would ultimately only lose about a seat. Yeah, I mean, that's probably fair. Again, we don't know until the actual seats are drawn. a lot of this depends on the legislature. A lot of this depends on, you know, there's states like Michigan,

which have an independent redistricting commission. So it'll sort of, it's going to play itself out a little bit. We're still far away from that actual point where we know this is going to cost them one C. And those, you know, that kind of calculus is kind of difficult to make anyway. But, yeah, I don't think there's any sort of massive shift with redistricting. Things should stay relatively the same. Yeah, I think Matt's exactly right. Obviously, you know, with the House this closely divided, there's going to be, I think, a little bit of extra attention played to the,

where it paid to the redistricting process, particularly in states where a lot of the growth, like Texas is a good example, where a lot of that growth came from this, you know, 10-year plan on behalf of like various Texas governors to bring in people from states like California. And it caused this massive growth in suburbs and excerpts of like Dallas and for Worth and Houston and Austin in particular. But, you know, a lot of those people coming in from other states where, you know, perhaps there was like a higher tax burden. It was a more business-friendly climate. You know, they didn't check their politics at the door. And so you have this growth that at least in some places in Texas is brought in by people who maybe are a little more purple

in their political viewpoint or even blue. And so I think, you know, the one thing I'm super curious about is what the tension is going to be between what the census shows to be the actual demographic shifts and whether the redistricting process reflects those demographic shifts or more accurately reflects the people who are in charge of redistricting, which I think you can all agree at least to this point. I mean, there's a reason the word gerrymandering exists, right? That seems right. So I feel like I wanted to get a little bit of new abnormal nerdy area in at first, but why don't you guys talk to me about what you guys felt about the

address last night and as well as it's a fun retort. You want to go first? Yeah, I mean, I think that my main takeaway, watching the speech late into that and then talking about it even later was that they're, I know, Americans have gotten used to

you know, the like big proposal or the big new idea in these joint sessions in state of the union addresses where the president lays out like a radical new policy or something really, really forward-looking. It's, you know, the great society in 1964, it's Axis of Evil in 2002. It's, you know, Barack Obama's Cancer Moonshot. And I feel like watching the address last night, it wasn't so much pitching a brand new policy that Americans

hadn't heard of before that was super ambitious. You know, there was no Donald Trump saying we're going to go to Mars by the end of the decade. Instead, it was mostly centered on a sales pitch for two big spending packages that we all pretty much already know what it's about. You know, the American Families Plan, which is introduced yesterday, and then the American Jobs Plan. And, you know, neither of those are, that's not to discount how, you know, bold they are. I mean, they're both 13-figure spending packages, but they are, it wasn't new necessarily to a listener. It was more of it. It was a sales pitch for stuff that we already knew was existing. Yeah. And I think that's right. I think one big element here is that Joe Biden's whole presidency seems to be sort of under the, you know, the, the radar very sneakily liberal.

I mean, he's putting forth very large spending packages, very liberal ideas. And because it's Joe Biden, because it's this old white guy, everyone's looking at it and going, oh, I know that guy. He's like that super moderate dude who, you know, all the progressives hate already. But the reality is what he's putting forward is, you know, it's, I think as Scott and I said in the lead, basically, some of the most progressive policies in generations. And, you know, it remains to be seen whether he's actually going to get that accomplished, whether he's actually going to get it through. There's a lot of difficulties coming down the pike here with Congress. The easiest crisis he had to address really was coronavirus in a lot of ways, but he addressed it, I think, very well. And he's getting a lot of credit for it at this point. But the next ones where the economy, the climate change, infrastructure, those things are going to be a little bit more difficult for him to get over the finish line. Not saying he can't do that. You know, he has a Democratic Senate and the Democratic House, but he has to thread that needle very carefully. And it's, you know, it's going to be difficult.

For the first 100 days, he might get more done than the next, what are like, 1,500 days or whatever it is remaining in four years. No, it's interesting, though, because I think about Michael Tamaski, who was an editor here, who's now an editor of the new republic. And he said this interesting thing to me, which is he said, before Biden became president, he said, you know, Democrats need to show the world that government can do stuff. And what's been really cool with the vaccinations is that Biden has shown the American people, right? The government did that. That was the government. So I do think he has this. you know, goodwill now to push more government on people. I don't know. I mean, the things that he is

talking about, you know, child care and healthcare and, and infrastructure seem like very popular. So I hope that it works, but it definitely is. I mean, and the calculus of like how you get this stuff passed when you have Republicans who don't even want to play. I mean, can anyone even think of 10 Republicans who would vote for this? Adam Kinscher might be one. But I mean in the I could, if you want to do the exercise, I could probably come up with some names, but yeah, I don't think there's really 10 votes. I will say to your point,

I had a member tell me, I think, at the beginning of coronavirus, that no one's really libertarian in a pandemic. And I think that was true at the beginning, although there is some of that frustration. I think there's a lot of people who are wondering like, hey, I'm double vaccinated. Why am I wearing a mask? Or, you know, why is Joe Biden?

I'm wearing a mask. There's a lot of that sort of frustration, I think, kicking around a little bit. But you're right that this was an impressive display for the government. It showed what government spending can do, how it can help people. We saw what an expanded unemployment system looks like. We're seeing what, you know, expanded child tax credits look like. I think it's really been an interesting experiment in the big government agenda. And it really has, you know, I think, you know, we titled the story last night, Joe Biden,

I'm from the government and I'm here to help. Obviously play on the Ronald Reagan, like the boogeyman vibe of that. But the reality is it's not that anymore. I think it's people actually are embracing the fact that there are government solutions to massive problems and that's okay. Yeah. And every time I hear him speak, the thing I'm so struck by is that Trump really set him up. Because every time I hear him, I get worried and I think like, oh, no, this is the time. And every time he is so much better.

You know, two years of Trump saying the guy's got dementia, the guy. So every time he speaks, I think he's a gifted orator. Cicero. 36 years in the Senate and eight years is VP, like you don't lose that muscle memory, you know. And I will say, you know, to quote potential Ohio Senator J.D. Vance, you know, it's sort of the soft bigotry of low expectations, right? where you set up the idea that he's going to come out there, like, completely infirm on an iron lung, and then he's get through an hour-long speech, like, you've set yourself up to make it, like,

look like he exceeds his expectations as an orator. I mean, he's no Barack Obama, but he certainly, he handled himself well from an oratorial, but I think what's more, just to follow up, madam, what you were saying, I think that in addition to, you know, sort of the pandemic as an experiment in the virtues of, you know, a bigger government presence more directly in people's lives. I mean, the president had to be happy this morning when he woke up to economic numbers showing that, you know, the economy grew at an annualized rate of 6% over the past quarter. And that's, I mean, that's, you're not going to find a much better argument on like a, like, hard black and white numbers basis in favor of, you know, things like direct payments in favor of, you know,

expanded child tax credits, then the fact that people are able to, like, we're going to be back to, you know, if these numbers hold a pre-pendemic economy in like one and a half quarters. And that's, that's a major victory. And I think it's going to help sell the American Families Plan, the American Jobs Plan, because this kind of expanded government, Biden will say, led to an economic recovery that we never could have expected. I thought what was interesting, we did that interview with Jamie Harrison, you know, the breakout quote was, of course, that the Democrats had a branding problem. And the beast headline that you mentioned,

I thought really was a good reinforcement of what this branding problem is, is that they actually need to say like, hey, you railed against the government, you tried to dismantle it. We're actually going to show you what works this time, which I'll be very curious if they lean into. Yeah.

And I think that strategy can be fraught, right? If it just is a coronavirus relief package that Joe Biden can deliver, if he can't deliver a massive infrastructure bill, that could be a problem for him. But, you know, if he can get those things over the finish line. And, you know, this is, to be clear, Democrats should be able to do this. They have the control in their own caucus. They don't need a single Republican vote. So it should get done.

It's just going to be very difficult. Great. So I'd love to turn the question for the first one from our Q&A, which comes from Heather McQuade, which says on a scale from one to 10, how? likely is Rudy going to be held account for his crime? Oh, yeah. That's a good question. I mean, from what I've heard from people, it's pretty serious. It seems to me, and then you guys can correct me if I'm wrong because I am neither a lawyer nor a person who has ever worked in a job. But it seems to me that you don't do something like this unless you really, the person's really

done something bad because there's any number of reasons. Also, it seems like the Trumpy Justice Department put this on a freeze and then Merrick Garland is coming back in and re-upping it and letting it keep going. But Matt Fuller, am I wrong? No, I mean, you know, caveats of innocent to proven guilty. Yeah, I mean, this is, they don't, this isn't a wild goose chase and you wouldn't make this move on Rudy Giuliani, unless you really thought there was something damning there. Just to go back to the interview you guys had with Hunter Biden recently, that, you know, the whole family, the whole orbit is just entirely projection, right? And this seems to be caught up in the Ukraine dealings that they were going after with Rudy and trying to dig up dirt and all this

stuff. If that's the case, and Rudy Giuliani, you know, he was definitely talking to people he shouldn't have been talking to. We know that much. It might not end very well for him. Yeah, for America's mayor. Yeah. I mean, it's hard. Lev,

Lev. Lever and. Harness. Yeah, Lev always gems me. Like, I don't think Leav is shutting up anytime soon. Yeah, that sounds right.

This is guarantee, like, his fraud. Yeah. Fraud guarantee, right? He was in a lot of those rooms with a lot of influential Republicans at Mara Lago, at NRCC fundraisers in private meetings with now, again, rep Pete Sessions. He knows a lot of the players here, and I'm very curious to see what sort of comes of all that. What do you guys think about Rep. Pete Sessions? Well, he's Jeff Sessions, brother.

No, he's not. He's not. He's not. He's a Texas rep from North Dallas. Right. He used to be George W. Bush's congressman. He's really a Bush guy, former NRCC guy. He's the son of a former FBI director. He's a big, I mean, I would be remiss not to mention that he's an Eagle Scout. He loves the Boy Scout. Pete, the Eagle, I know him very well.

I've spent years covering the Rules Committee. You know, it was a very, he's an interesting guy. He's kind of, you know, I don't want to be. mean here, but a little bit of a lovable idiot. And I think that's how a lot of Republicans saw him. And I think that's how a lot of maybe foreign adversaries saw him. This is a guy who we could go to who has connections with everyone, who we can meet with. He knows, you know, everyone, everyone kind of likes Pete Sessions.

No, not many people in the Republican conference maybe love or respect him that much, particularly now. I think he's got a, you know, a drastically reduced position in the Republican conference, but he's been around forever. He knows everyone. He knows the game. He's eager and ambitious. In fact, if he does have any sort of enemies in the Republican conference, it was other sort of Republican leaders like Kevin McCarthy, who, you know, we're like, I don't know about this guy. He seems to have some his sights set on leadership as well, Jeb Hensseling, to throw out a name from five years ago or whatever. But yeah, I don't. I don't. I don't think Pete Sessions knew what he was doing. He's just the guy who, you know, he, if you were a lobbyist,

I think Pete Sessions is a great guy to go to because, like, he's going to do what you want. He's going to write the letter that you want. And he's not going to really ask questions. She just wants to be helpful to people. And I don't think he really knew what he was doing. That's my honest take. So here's a really important question. Is he dumber or smarter than Louis Gomer? Well, this is an impossible question. Louis Gomer, I'm always reminded, was a judge. He knows things about history or knows things that I'm not sure Pete Sessions knows. Like if I'll take Louis Gomer on Jeopardy. Wow.

Street smarts, like who do I, who would I rather have imparting life lessons? I'll take Pete Sessions every day. Wow. Yeah. The damning indictment. well I've I've sat through many Gomer hours on the house floor and watched that whole thing go down so yeah real Gomer hours are not a thing I want to think Scott do you have any thoughts or should I move on no Matt is our resident Hill expert so I would defer to him on on all things Gomer it's lucky you yeah so the next question I'm going to do from the ones in the pub is from Christian fail, which says, Ron DeSantis apparently is in the lead to be the GOP's next presidential nominee. How do you think he will play outside of Florida?

Well, I want to know about this, too. I mean, I will volunteer as like someone who is barely recovered 16, let alone 2020. Thinking about 2024 makes me want to go and stick my head in a barrel. I mean, I think he, the fondness for him, you know, Part of it's obviously anything this early is going to be about like name recognition. And, you know, Ronda Santis was one, as most governors were during the pandemic, was a lot more front-facing than, you know, members of the Senate. They were the people who were calling the shots, occasionally bad shots. If you're an epidemiologist or public health official who was concerned about what was happening in Florida, I think, you know, my knee-jerk reaction to him is that the interest in him speaks to what Matt was talking about earlier, which.

is that there's sort of like a libertarian neederick impulse to a lot of the more onerous or frustrating of the COVID restrictions that were happening. And, you know, Ron DeSantis standing a thwart, you know, restaurant closures and beach closures and nightclub closures saying no is going to speak to someone for whom that was like a major concern. I, you know, I obviously can't predict anything. But that would be my sort of gut impulse on where the attraction is so far. That and like a very rich and luxuriant head of hair, which, you know, an important quality in any national leader. He seems like Trump light a little bit, right? Like he's Trump, but he sort of knows not to say the really terrible stuff, unlike Trump.

My question is he did win that straw poll at CPAC, which was sort of put him on the map. but I guess because it was in Florida that kind of negate some of it. Do you think Matt? Well, yeah, but I would just cautious that there's another Florida resident who's going to have a lot of say over the 24 Republican nomination.

And I still think he is going to run. I think he's going to talk himself into it. So. He told Maria Bartaroma this morning that 100% he's going to run. I'm 100% to run. I'm going to run. You know,

I don't know if Donald Trump's 100% is 100%, but I think there's a good chance he does run. And in that situation, I don't even think Ron DeSantis challenges him. You know, Ron DeSantis, a guy who I don't think was naturally a Trump person who saw the opening. He's a smart guy, went to Harvard. I had a member once tell me he was one of the best writers in the Republican conference, oddly enough.

But he saw an opening. He saw where the trajectory of the Republican Party was going and he got out in front of it. You might remember when he was running for governor, he had those like super Trumpy ads like with his kids like build the wall. And Mr. Trump says, you're fired. I love that part. That was pretty disgusted. Yeah. And like his wife is like, people think he's just Mr. Trump, but he's more than that.

He's also a Trump dad. So he, you know, he's playing to that. choir. And when he sees another opening, he'll adjust to that too. But I think his natural political instincts are on that more libertarian side, which aligned well with the whole, you know, we're not going to wear masks in Florida. We're not going to do this. And regardless of the reality, because you might remember, like, where does Ron DeSantis go to get his apology? That was way out of front of their skis on that one. And it did not age as beautifully as they wanted. But now it's, history is being recreated, I think, where it's like, oh, no, Ron DeSantis was great on the pandemic

response just because people want to believe that. And they want to, they're just so done with coronavirus and they want to have a place like Miami where it's just like, you know, it's 2019. Like none of this stuff exists there. So, you know, he's going to have a following in the Republican Party because I think there's that mood right now. Everyone's just so pent up with like, get me out of this thing. And Ron DeSantis is. like an easy figure to sort of lead that charge. Can you game out this nightmare scenario of the 2024 Republican primary? Oh, God.

I'm sorry. Yeah, let me just get a prescription for antidepressant. April 29, 2021. I mean, but like, it seems like Trump goes in and then everybody drops out. Right? Unless people are interested in potentially serving a VP role or unless he can't capture the magic again. I mean, you said something earlier about, you know, Desantis being sort of like Trump without the like famous, saying horrible things

or, you know, up tweeting all night, like kind of missing that. But when when you strip those qualities away from someone like Trump, you lose the Trumpiness. Right. Like the sort of X factor, which is why I, you know, I'm not in the business of like giving advice to anybody, but if I were a Republican or counseling Republican who's interested in running in 2024, I would say that you're never going to get the X factor in Trump that allowed him to be Trump. And so, you know, voters, weirdly, they have a sense of bullshit about whether you're, can I say bullshit, about whether you're like cosplay as another candidate. And I don't, I don't think that that, I mean, not to like lauded or anything.

terrible, but to, you know, capture that lightning and a bottle. I don't think other candidates can do that. They're going to have to set the terms of what is presidential or what people want on their own terms or otherwise they lose. So, I mean, I think that that, that, to like take like a super far step back because I can't even speculate on names, I think that that's something that they're going to have to grapple with is like, do I just want to pretend to be Trump, but Trump with better impulse control? It's like, no, because once you have impulse control, you're no longer Trump. But also Trump without Twitter is not really Trump, right? Because he can't, you know, he puts out these, you know, the Oscar tweet thing was two, took him two days, right?

To say what he would have said in five minutes. So I do. So I do think, like, if he doesn't get Twitter back, he's not the same time. That's probably true. I think he might get better at, I mean, obviously issuing these statements is not having the same. as, you know, his tweets and everything and ranting about Merrill Streep. But it's so authentically Trump, like you can, you just hear it. You see those words.

And it's like, oh, yeah, he wrote this. He has a problem where he's like on the Oscar ones. That was like 500 words or something. I don't know. It wasn't really, but it certainly wasn't 280 characters. And he's, you know, as he goes here, he's got a lot of time to figure that out. But issuing the statements and everything from the former president, And that could still get around some of this.

It's a bit of a workaround for him. He's just got to get a little bit better at it and figure that part out. So, yeah. Can I just ask one more question about the from the Maria Bartaroma interview because it just happened this morning? Trump said, I just want to read this because I think it will be fascinating to everyone involved here, or at least it's fascinating to me. Trump said to Maria that he,

I just want to make sure I have it here. Oh, yeah, that he says that Senate Republicans should oust Mitch McConnell as GOP leader. And quote, Mitch McConnell has not done a great job. I think they should change Mitch McConnell. So you guys, thoughts, prayers? You want to go? I mean, Mitch McConnell is one of the most effective Senate majority leaders ever. As far as like, I mean, I don't know how Trump can look at the judiciary that was built under his administration, which is like basically solely a feat of Mitch McConnell creating a backlog of vacancies for close to eight years and then opening the floodgates for like every Tom Dick and Harry to be confirmed to a federal bench and say that any, I mean, I know.

I know that I know I'm trying to force reason onto a person who is like definitionally unreasonable. But I, Trump has a be in his bonnet about Mitch for one reason or another. I, you know, maybe because he was, you know, faffing about ahead of the impeachment vote and not saying whether or not he would support it. But like I, this has nothing to do with Mitch McConnell's efficacy and everything to do with Trump feeling pissy today. Go ahead, Jesse. I really appreciate you putting the image of Trump in the bottom of my head, Scott. Thank you for that. Well, to change the metaphor, but extend one of Scott's, the B, I mean, Mitch McConnell and Donald Trump are both sort of hornets nests.

And they kind of had this nice little detente where they both agreed not to kick the other one, at least not too much. And, you know, I think you're seeing Trump lash out a little bit, but it's not, it's really not a wise play. because Mitch McConnell is not going to be overthrown. And if he does that, if he actually pushes for that, Trump's just going to look weaker, actually, among Republicans. And there's a lot of Republicans who really do appreciate and support Mitch McConnell who look at him as the cocaine Mitch memes and everything. But, you know, we had a blind quote on a story like a week or two ago.

That was basically like, history is going to look back in Republican politics and say Mitch McConnell was one of the smartest political operators ever. And they're going to look back at Donald Trump and say he was one of the dumbest. That's not exactly true. I think there is some defense for Trump's wackiness and everything. But this is not a guy who you want to fight with. And he does it at his own peril. Can you imagine, though, who would be the Trumpy senator that Trump would want to lead the party?

I mean, who is dumb and sycophantic enough? I guess, like, I mean, Marsha Blackburn? First one came to my mind. Yeah, M-Trail. Senator Don Jr. There you go. But Don Jr. seems to have not done anything in the last 100 days. Oh, he's tweeting a lot on the rumble, too.

I'm tweeting about me. But, I mean, besides that, like, I feel like he hasn't done any, like, actual, like, there's a window here for him to run for office, and he's not taking it. I mean, he might know that his dad's going to run again. So if he's just looking to inherit. the political kingdom, you know, he's got to wait for the king to die. And Trump is still alive and kicking and golfing and whatever he's tweeting, not tweeting, but typing or something, I don't know.

TiVoing. So I'm going to do a quick little pallet cleanser here. We have some year anniversary celebratory questions. Molly, Barbara Bell wants to know what guests made you laugh the most this year? You know, I liked that comedian we had remember who's, I can't remember his name now. He was on the Mindy Project. He was really funny with the beautiful boaters. Oh, Ike Barronholz.

Ike Baranholz was really funny. That was my one too. And we've had some actually really funny guests. I mean, sort of unexpectedly funny. But yes, he was the funny. if we're going to. I also love Henry Winkler. Yes, that was fun too. Yeah. I mean, he's not like hysterical, but he's fun. This one's a little weird because it's for me, which is from Michael Rich, which asks,

what's the funniest thing I cut and bleeped out, which obviously I can't really answer, but I'll say this. Jay Michelson said something about Lindsay Graham from the perspective of a gay man that I think about a lot, but I can't say on a live broadcast. Okay. So I want to get back into a fun. for everyone, though. So L. Sarmel asks, why are liberals drinking the John Boehner Kool-Aid? He voted for Trump twice. I think like a spin on that maybe is like, obviously this guy is trying to sell books,

but do we think there's anything to be learned from what John Boehner's saying on this press tour? I'm curious to know what you guys think, but my favorite thing about him is he's clearly an alcoholic. I don't think there's any veil on that. So I'm not a big fan and I certainly wouldn't buy his book, but I do enjoy when he gets drunk and goes on television. Thoughts, comments, Matt Fuller. Yeah, let me say, this used to be the most interesting hour of the year for me.

And it's been referenced many times. So I don't feel like this is, I'm really breaking any off the record things here. But back in the day, we used to have an off the record drink with the speaker. And John Banner would sidle up to the bar. He'd literally lean against the bar so he could just go like, Yeah, Merlo, fill it up there. And he would get lit up, okay? And he would tell very interesting stories.

He would give you real insights into meetings he had with Obama. He would tell you what he really thinks of people like Louis Gomer and Steve King. And they're funny stories. They're interesting story. He's a great storyteller. He's an interesting guy. But are you, you know, on the question of like, why are liberals drinking the Kool-Aid? well, they shouldn't because you're you're exactly right that, you know, this is a guy who not only was he, like, I'm, I'm, I, he voted for Trump twice. He was saying, well, yeah, you know, well, I still like him over Ted Cruz, which we can debate the merits of that too. But he's, you know, he was earlier than most on the Trump train, I guess, his texting buddy, right? Another fellow golfer. So there's, you know, John Boehner is problematic on a number of levels. And you'd have to also ask yourself what John Boehner would be doing.

differently if you were the speaker right now or the minority leader, would he really be, you know, putting Marjorie Taylor Green in her place or is he going to let her sort of run the caucus? And we saw over the course of Boehner's years as a speaker that that contingent of the conference really did take over. I mean, that's when the Freedom Caucus really was sort of born. I understand that it was really under Paul Ryan like coming into fruition. But it was under Bainer's watch, the the 2013 government shutdown. This, where we are in the party,

that was under, you know, John Boehner. And he has a lot of responsibility for the crazy party that he now sees and points out. But it's like he's taking no real ownership of the fact that, uh, this is a lot of his own making, right? And yeah, so I think that, you know, they're fun stories. He's a fun guy.

He's a fun drunk. Would love to have a glass of wine with him. Uh, would love to have some more stories. And I can understand. I understand reading that book on that level, but should you give him your money, I might go to the library for that one. Yeah, I think that's good advice. Stoppixby thought. Yeah, I think that impulse comes from a place of where I feel like a lot of people still choose to view Donald Trump as sort of like a Black Swan event politically, who no one could have predicted.

and he came out of the surf like Aphrodite just like fully formed. And that impulse, I can understand it because it's a way of dodging the reckoning that someone like Trump is a creation of American politics. And it's, you know, in some ways like a logical result of a long lineage of, you know, similar impulses and similar forces that have taken over or become more powerful in different political parties over time. But it dodges the issue that, you know, Matt, like you said, like you said, like, you you can directly trace Trump's lineage back to the Tea Party that Boehner helped, like,

let take over the clown car. And, you know, while it might be convenient, you know, politically or morally to think of Trump as like a one-and-done aberration, he's really not. And, you know, when you let the people who helped foster a climate that allowed him to exist, you know, get away with it or tell you funny, drunk, jokes in their book, it's sort of, it, it, it not only allows this people to escape, you know, potential culpability for their, their creation of this person and, and the things that you did, but it also opens up the door for it to happen again. And I think that that's, it's, it's

important to remember that, you know, Trump did not come out fully formed from nothing. He's part of a lineage. And John Boehner isn't being part of that lineage. Yeah, that's really good. The other thing I will say to, if we're talking about him with the drinking, where do you even get a glass of wide that big to purchase? Not that I need it for home, but I just, I've never seen a glass of wide that big, as big as the one of this book cover. He came up with a term, which I do love, which is suburban poor, which had not heard before, but yeah. That is an interesting one. So there was a comment since I saw Leonidas just made a cameo, which, comes from Jackie says Vancey who says,

Molly, thank you for sharing your photos of Leo. We couldn't have gotten through the pandemic without him, which I think is... There you go. I know he's really great, and he's on my lap right now. And he's great. It's really great. So we have a question from Abe Elrod.

Are we seeing a larger number of radicalized right-wing extremists? How many are there? And if we ignore them, will they go away? I know we've touched a little bit about this, but I'm, I personally feel like, you know, the thing with every time there's a Democratic president, you start to see the media coverage and you start to see these people get a little bit more. I'm curious if you guys think this is a media prism or if it actually is that they just get more riled up when they're not winning versus when they were winning last time and what you guys see in the trend here. They got riled up when they won and they got riled up when they lost. Yeah. Right?

Like Trump got them riled up. But I mean, I don't know the answer to this question, but I just want to add to the question before you guys answer the question. Sorry. But in Michigan, we've interviewed a bunch of women, including Debbie Dingell and the governor, Whitmer. And they both said that as elected women in Michigan, one of these huge problems they have to deal with is the Michigan militia. And so that, I think, is an interesting situation, right? Because you have Democrats in power in a state that still. has a very kind of scary, seriously kind of weaponized group. So I'm curious to know, you know, I mean, this is not really part of the question, but you guys go. Well, I think maybe one the better things I see people being confused about as some people seem to think that now the media is looking at these people in a different light. And if we think it's just a media framing or do we think that there really is just this really big growing of this yet again now that they've lost.

Scott, you want to go first? Yeah, I, after the election, but pre-inauguration, actually, before the attempted insurrection, I did a, you know, sort of like 30,000 foot look at what kind of efforts, people who work in, like, from a sociological perspective or like a social work perspective on right-wing extremism and white nationalism, we're hoping to see out of a Biden administration to go after, like, the, extreme, you know, far right, usually people like the general catch-all is white supremacy, if you boil down the ideology. And, you know, I did ask, I was like, is this just like a

perennial concern that comes up when they're doing badly or a concern that happens when they feel emboldened or, you know, there's a particular inciting incident like a terrorist attack or the, you know, now, after the fact, you know, the insurrection. And, you know, the folks that I spoke to, said that, you know, while they do, you know, these groups by and large do respond to, you know, feelings of, you know, increasing disenfranchisement and isolation and also like new feelings of empowerment, which is to say, you know, elected officials who like kind of wink and nod towards the values that they hold, that the real issue is honestly the internet has made it a lot easier for these folks to recruit and for alienated and disaffected people.

to find each other. There was one sociologist I spoke to who specializes in like sort of documenting the skinhead movement on the West Coast. And she's like, you know, I grew up in Portland, Oregon in the 1990s and the punk scene was really, really huge. And the way it used to be that these groups would, you know, would recruit new members is they would go to a punk show and they would look for the kids who were standing alone. And they would have to go and make an in-person sales pitch to get them to join up and, you know, to talk about like, I don't know, like an incident of interracial violence at their middle school or something like that. And you no longer need to go to a punk show in Portland, Oregon to find potential recruits. And it's no longer limited by geography

or by age. It's, you know, part of the concern, the folks that I talked to were saying is that they're like, this is no long, you know, white nationalism isn't exactly the right word anymore because it crosses national borders. You know, Anders Breivik, you know, he committed horrible crimes half a world away and it's still a rallying cry for people who are copycat criminals or copycat terrorists or people who, you know, subscribe to the same ideology, you know, in countries across the world. And so I think that, you know, now that Trump is out of power and, you know, Democrats are, you know, in a better position or people who are social justice worries or a better position, is that going to be more fuel for these people? Certainly. But I think that that fuel is,

is finding itself regardless of who is in power. Does that make sense? Yes. That was actually really great. Thoughts. Yeah. And I would just add, I would just add that,

you know, I don't, we don't know how many true extremists exist there. And, and, you know, I was there on January 6th, and I walked through that crowd.

And I had people ask me, like, in my neighborhood, can I park here? Let me talk like that. And, you know, I don't think,

I don't think, I don't think anyone, I don't, no one thinks that everyone there was a right-wing extremist and there to kill people. But they, they had, all of them had a capacity, I guess, for violence and for, you know, mayhem, rioting, insurrection. And I think that a lot of these people are existing on a continuum. And you know, Scott's exactly right. The internet has sort of made that access point a lot easier. And the, the barriers to becoming, sort of radicalized are much smaller. You know, you don't need to go to a punk show and then, like, go to the neo-Nazi's house

and, like, get some literature or anything. You can just, like, laugh at a tweet or like it or something like that. And then, like, it's just kind of, I guess, growing in your brain or something like, this sort of cancer. And I think that's the more likely scenario is that a lot of people have a larger capacity for these sort of evil things and these bad. thoughts. But I don't think, you know, the number of people who actually go into oath keepers meetings and proud boys meetups and stuff like that. That's, I think it's pretty

relatively small. So our next question comes from a member Lisa Rios, which says the usual, why can't the Dems do a better job selling their good policies and why is Kamala Harris virtually invisible? But I want to put a little spin on this, which is, I think, you know, traditionally we've seen very invisible vice presidents. I always think Kamala has been the most in demand to be the change to that. What do we think is going on with that? And do we think that perception is correct? Yeah, I'm curious, Matt Fuller, what do you see going on behind the scenes?

With Kamala being like the... Yeah, like visible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that she's going to play an important role in the administration because, you know, she's a woman of color who is a stark contrast to Joe Biden. And I think she gives him a lot of credibility in a lot of those communities and with a lot of progressives, frankly, although, you know, I think he's getting his own sort of credibility

with his policies too. But, you know, I think the images that we saw like last night were pretty powerful with her and police seated behind him and everything. And, you know, I think those are sort of going to continue. I think the White House is very aware of the. sort of his significance that she can add to certain visuals and whatnot. So, you know, I think that's that's going to continue certainly. I have a question because you have, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but you guys are like on the ground in Washington, D.C. I'm always

very paranoid because I'm in New York, so I'm not like seeing things with my own eyes, but it's very annoying and I wish I lived in Washington. But what it seems like what I see is that he's constantly like putting her to first and like putting her in briefings and she's on the schedule all the time and there's you know he's walking behind her but is that real or is that theater um i will say that i mean if if i can commit the cardinals sin of recommending um an article in a competing outlet uh Eugene daniel's a friend of mine who covers the white house at politico had a really good story out today about, you know, the vice president's role in this administration as, you know, being sort of put to work and being a happy warrior. And part of that, I think, speaks to

President Biden for a very long time. He keeps like a very close circle of people that he trusts, and it takes a long time for him to trust you. And once you're in, you're in. But, you know, it's, he's been surrounded by people like for, you know, more than four decades in politics. And so he has like a very tight firmament of close people around him. And I think that, you know, Vice President Harris looks at that. And she's like, okay, the way the people have earned the respect and the trust of this president is to like work really hard for him and not like be too much of a distraction, not seem like I'm trying to like pull rank or get out ahead of the president on, you know,

on like matters of policy or matters of visibility. I know that, you know, one thing that was a source of perpetual frustration, during the Veep Stakes is that, you know, the President Biden isn't someone who's going to just, like, give you something without you having expressed an interest in taking it. But he also has, like, sort of a knee-jerk opposition personally to people who really, really lobby themselves from positions. I know that a lot of people who are navigating the ambassador races right now are having a really hard time navigating that because they're like, okay, he's not going to give me something if I don't make it clear that I want it, but also if I ask for something, I'm going to look grubby, and he responds poorly to that.

There's sort of a similar dynamic at play with the vice president where she doesn't want to seem like, you know, she's just waiting for her chance to run for president instead. She wants to, you know, and it's better to build a great working relationship if you're, if you approach it like a willing partner rather than someone who is just waiting in the wings to take over. Do you have a sense of how the ambassadorship stakes are going? Are there going to be any exciting people that we've never heard of? Or have we have, I mean, is Anna Wintour going to get an ambassarhip as something exciting going to happen? Probably not. I will say that like staffing generally in this White House, things are moving comparatively slowly, in part because, you know, again, Biden has this, you know, sort of people who on the campaign referred to somewhat derisively as like the council of elders around him,

many of whom basically have earned veto rights on any number of positions, even compared to low-level staffing stuff in the EOP. And so, you know, so that's part of the delay in ambassador nominations. Another part of it is that particularly when it comes to political appointments, which is usually the kind of ambassador positions that are reserved for like bigwig donors or long-time political supporters, you know, former governors and senators, that kind of thing. A lot of those people are white and men, and it's not great optics to bring out like a massive raft of very plum ambassador. nominations that are all just like rich white dudes. It's part of the reason why the first raft of nominees for ambassador positions that was

released a couple of weeks ago were all career foreign service professionals and almost all of them were like people of color or women. And I think that's part of the delay. There are some, there are some interesting people. There are some interesting people and I don't think I can say more right now. We want to just give us a hint, rhyme with. I Cindy McCain

the floating of Cindy McKin as the ambassador for like the world food program I think is a trialable. I think it just people get outraged at the idea of her getting anything because I think that they see her for a potentially bigger role. The thing that I think is interesting

and I'm curious to know what you guys think is that it does feel like and this is a good example is last week. So last week a bunch of really smart doctors that I'm close with like Peter Hottes, started saying, you know, you got to send aid to India and not just, you know, it's not just an IP problem. It's a you need to send people to make the vaccines.

In India, it's a little different, but like in Africa, you need to send teams, you need to send supplies, you need to get going on this. And there was some pushback from them, and then they did it. And I wonder if you're seeing that in other, if you're seeing that in other parts of the Biden administration. I mean, I think the most conspicuous one and the one that's still ongoing is the refugee cap. It's clear that the administration was caught off guard by how strong and angry the response was. So not raising the cap of a 15,000.

As someone who covered immigration for two and a half years under the Trump administration, I don't know how they could have been surprised by that reaction. And they blamed it on a comms issue. they blamed it on reporters not knowing how like what they were being told was the truth. And I think that, you know, now we're seeing reporting out that, you know, the administration is in fact going to try and re-raise the cap to 60,500, which is part of the initial target. But it's been slower, I think, than a lot of advocates in that space would have wanted. That to me is like the most obvious example of that. So I realized we didn't really touch on one of the things that the top billing was, which was.

Tim Scott. It feels like Tim's having a little bit of a moment. You know, I saw Chris Zeliza say that, you know, he could really be a 20-24 contender, which, well, but I do want to know what you guys thought about his response last night. Matt Fuller, you want to go first? Well, I'll be honest with you. I actually didn't see Tim Scott's response. I was still in the chamber and then like

frantically writing, so I don't have much of it. I've seen the media coverage of it, but I can't tell you, I've seen first hand so I'm going to I have another question because you were in the chamber not a lot of Republicans Mitt the one sort of Republican

crazy was Lauren Beaufort and she brought the space blanket to discuss yeah I think it was like one of those botched protests people have pointed out to me I still need to review this if she actually broke it out when

he was mentioning immigration, but she sort of loudly and like ostentatiously, like, you know, did one of those with this like a thermal space blanket. And it was, you know, everyone in the chamber could hear it. And like, I wasn't exactly looking. And then you just, you know, spreading up this thing. And sure, it's cold. And like Lauren Bober is a hundred pounds soaking wet. So like, okay, we'll take that into account. But it was, you know, people don't put blankets on. the chamber. And if they do, they're not going to do it in that sort of manner. And they're not going to do the space blanket thing that kids in like those camps or refugee camps are, are using. This was clearly a sort of form of protest. She just decided, I think like a moment too late that, oh,

I don't actually want to do this. Like this is kind of weird. Like I, you know, it's just a moment too late and you're like, I'm just going to sort of sit here quietly and she sort of went back to her phone and everything and just like had a blanket graped over her. It was an extremely bizarre thing, but it was so like she was sort of in the back of the chamber anyway. So like members didn't, not everyone really saw it happen. So I, you know, I don't know what she was really thinking there. I think it was a sort of former protest.

She thought it probably would go over a lot better. And she kind of like in the moment decided like, I'm just going to leave that tweet and drafts. and like, you know, just, we'll just sort of let that one die. Scott, were you writing last night too and didn't see it? I know, I watched the rebuttal this morning because I'm a sucker for punishment. I don't know why either party does these. Like, they're always floated as like, you know, the next great hope of whichever party happens to not be in power at the time.

and it's always like just an opportunity for embarrassment. It's, you know, and that's, I think that the highest level that, you know, folks ever since like David Webb have done in this is to like get out of it alive without becoming a meme. Yeah. But like Marco Rubio and that stupid bottle of water. Water, yeah. Lobby Jindal just showing his entire ass.

Like it's never, it's never been anything but an opportunity to look like an idiot. Remember Kennedy did it once? Which one? With the chapstick, Eric Kennedy, and now he's not even in office. Well, and I will say that, you know, going by those incredibly low standards,

I thought that was fine. You know, it's like state of the union addresses or like joint session addresses, the people who watch it are generally predisposed to be in favor of or supportive of the things that you're saying. And so, you know,

was it well received by the majority of people who probably watch it in real time? Absolutely. Do I think it's, you know, one more indicator that, like, he's probably going to run for president in 2024 and he's going to be a very attractive vice presidential pick for like a lot of obvious demographic reasons, for sure. Do I think that like, you know, it was Barack Obama at the 2004 Democratic National Convention? No. Because it never is. It never is. It's always just an opportunity to like become a meme for 36 hours and impureate your staff. Yeah. Sounds right. So as a last thing to fill the last few minutes we have, Patrick Woolridge says, just for a changeup, can we have a love that guy?

Oh, so you guys don't know about this, but we have, or maybe you do, we have one segment on the show, only one, none of this fancy segment stuff. And our one segment is where we talk about someone we really hate and we make them the fuck that guy. And it's been DeSantis and for me I often go uh who's the one who I Alex Berenson's your new BFARinson because you know I'm very into vaccine so he's like the worst I haven't made Naomi Wolfeit yet I'm ready I got I got some jabs to go but but uh so I'll love that guy I'll go first and then you guys can go so you don't have to do this because it's really hard to think it up on the fly um my love that guy is I think that I don't want to get too flamed for this.

So I have to make sure. You know, it's harder to pick someone you like than someone you hate, right? Because everyone invites on someone they hate. I think that my, the person where I've been feeling really good about what they've been up to has been Ron Clayne. Because and I'm not saying that I endorse everything he's ever done or everything he will do. But, you know, he came with the vaccines. he had all this history with Ebola, right? So he had a lot of experience and he went in and he really, you know, put it to work.

And they have been very, you know, they've been flexible. They've been listening to people. They've shown where they need to bring vaccines. They've shown where they haven't. They've, you know, I think it's been really great. The other person who I want to give a little bit of a shout out to, and again, everyone's going to get mad at me for this because he is really an awful, awful, awful person. but he's done really well with the vaccines is Jim Justice from West Virginia.

And he just started a $100 savings bond for young people to get the vaccine. I know he's terrible. I know he's got the mining. I know he sucks. I, you guys don't have to. I mean, I agree. He's got a lot of bad things about him. But that was really a great move.

And we're going to have to do that. And West Virginia has really killed it with their vaccines largely. And so I think he should get props for that. guys who wants to go matt um well i i i i've been thinking of some people i think i'm going to take a cop out on this one and go with just major biden love yeah hell yeah yeah fighting people uh just this unruly like needs training i'm just going to go with love my dog i'm here for all of his antics and and pissing on rugs and all that Biden, that's a good choice. Scott?

Better not make a dog. I will not put him a dog, although I will say as someone else who was forced to move to D.C. because Biden won the election and now wants to bite everybody, I totally sympathize. Now, I this one, I mean,

okay, I have a good one. It's not just because it was his birthday yesterday, but as a now displaced New Yorker, I've been watching the mayoral race with an increasing sense of dread and frustration. I love New York is home. I love New York more than anything in the world and I think that the fact that people are taking away from the past 15 months that the person we really need in

charge of New York City is potentially someone who has no experience and doing anything that's related to governing. I think is weird. So I think that my person might my like love that guy is Corey Johnson who's currently the speaker of the city council flirt with run for mayor, elected not to, mostly is a result of like supporting a budget package that every black member of the city council also supported when it came to the NYPD, but they pissed off a lot of white liberals who then like started like setting fires on his boyfriend stoop, that kind of stuff. It was summer 2020 was hard on us all. But I think that the fact that the race in New York for mayor is getting so rough with what's happening with Scott Stringer and everything

and the really early Hasidic endorsement by those two Hasidic groups for Andrew Yang it's just it's going to get really weird and pat really quickly. I think it makes races for the sort of support network positions Corey's running for comptroller. I think it makes those positions even more important and hopefully it's going to bring a little bit more attention

to like not just his honor but like everyone else who keeps the city functioning. That was great. Well mine is all three of you for doing such a great job. We want to thank everyone who tuned in so much. And thank you all for supporting the show. And we hope you have a good day. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, you guys. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studed the Daily Beast podcast at thedailybeast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode,

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