The Daily Beast Podcast - Wolff: Bannon is Tearing off Musk's Face for Trump

Episode Date: June 6, 2025

Joanna Coles is back with an emergency podcast to reveal just what is going on with the Trump–Elon Musk blow-up—and who better to explain it than Michael Wolff, Trump’s biographer and longtime chaos whisperer. Wolff explains why Musk is “Elon Bannon," revealing how he’s stolen Bannon’s role as Trump’s dark twin. And he unpacks why both men are deploying Trump’s ultimate fear: Jeffrey Epstein. From Epstein’s Manhattan mansion, where Bannon coached the disgraced financier on media comebacks, to Elon’s furious tweets, Wolff traces a toxic triangle of power, revenge and secrets. And he explains why Musk may be the first man rich and ruthless enough to truly go to war with Trump—and win. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I'm Joanna Cole's Chief Content Officer of The Daily Beast. We are tracking moment by moment, tweet by tweet, truth social by truth social, the fight between the richest man in the world and the most powerful man in the world. And who has weighed in ripping Elon Musk's face off, but Steve Bannon. So we're getting straight into it with, of course, the man who is still inside Donald Trump's head, the author, the best-selling author, Michael Wolfe. Michael, Steve Bannon is now back. the fray. He's making all sorts of demands, not least that Trump investigate Elon's immigration

status. It feels like it's been some time since we've heard of him. What is he doing now? Well, first thing, that's what Steve is doing and has been doing is looking for ways to get back in the fray. That's kind of his full-time job. I mean, he's running this podcast. He's a podcaster. Aren't we all? Yes. And his podcast, The War Room, is really about looking for ways to remain relevant in Trump world. And he succeeds sometimes because his audience is probably... It's where they all corral around, right?

It really is the inner circle of Mago. Did Steve Bannon feel, I mean, obviously he was trying. Trump's closest advisor, at least at the beginning of Trump won. Totally. I mean, this is really Elon Bannon, with Bannon seeing Elon as taking his role, usurping his role, because Steve has continued to feel against all of the evidence that he would be called back to the White House, called back besides Trump's side, which is curious because he hates Trump, as Elon apparently does too. But pay no mind to that, of course, because everyone hates Trump. But yes, Bannon is, I mean, I think you can compare them quite, they align.

What does Trump think of Bannon now? Does Trump want Bannon back? For Trump, out of sight is out of mind. It's like Steve who? Right. And it was very noticeable that after Steve came out of his four months in sojourn at the government's pleasure, he wasn't greeted by any of the Trump crew. Trump has never liked Bannon.

I mean, he fired him ignominiously. So what's in it for Bannon then to be ripping Elon's face off like this? I mean, he, on his podcast, he also said that Trump should issue an executive order employing the Defense Production Act saying he should seize SpaceX. Well, because everything in this world is geared to an audience of one, which is Trump. You align with Trump in one of his battles. Steve could come back on this basis. Remember, after the election and the steel and all of this,

all of the somewhat normal Trumpers were cowering off in some corner. Don't involve me with this. And then the crazies, led by Giuliani, came back in. So, yeah, if you, again, it's a simple thing. If you say what Trump wants to hear, then you're in like Flint. So yeah, I think Bannon has, this is an opportunity that he is seizing. And I have known Steve for quite some time now and have always been fond of him. You can't spend a moment with Steve and not find this as one of the more enjoyable moments

you've ever spent. Of course he's, you know, it's, you can then say all. of the opposite, terrible things about Steve, which were all true. But in the moment, he is insightful and funny and even feels like your best friend. Well, I'm very mindful of the chapter in your book Too Famous, which takes place at Jeffrey Epstein's house, his enormous house, supposedly the largest private house in New York on the Upper East Side in Manhattan, where Steve Bannon is actually there giving Jeffrey Epstein advice about. about how he should handle the court case that is inevitably coming down towards him.

What was their relationship like? Well, it's just worth making the point here that Epstein then becomes the nexus here with Elon accusing Trump of having a hidden relationship with Epstein, which was, of course, true. They were friends for best friends for 15 years. But now also Steve comes into this. And I think Elon is now accusing Bannon of an Epstein relationship, which he, of course, had. And actually, this was a relationship I witnessed.

And when I wrote about this, I mean, I've written all kinds of things about Steve and was probably the agent of getting him fired from the White House. Well, you were the agent of getting Steve fired from the White House. Yeah, because he was one of the central sources in Fire and Fury. Your first book. Yeah, and that's what, you know, on the basis of that, Trump really cast him out of the Trump orbit. So are you and Bannon still on speakers? Well, we're not actually since I wrote about his relationship with Epstein.

So it didn't really bother him that I managed to get him fired from the White House and expelled from Trump world. but the Epstein thing is remains too hot to handle. I did write about that, and I was there. You know, Bannon had this idea that he could rescue. Well, first thing, just as a bit of background, these guys met each other after Bannon exited the White House, and they both were united by their relationship with Trump, who they obsessed about and hated and couldn't understand

and how Trump was in the White House. And they would spend hours and hours and hours trying to digest this central fact in both of their lives. But then when Epstein got in increasing trouble and was then headed to his ultimate and fateful denouement, Steve Bannon had this idea that that Epstein should go on 60 minutes and do a mea culpa, that that would save him. And then Steve Bannon took it upon himself to tell Epstein how to do this and brought in cameras to stage this and practice sessions.

And I wrote about this and Steve did not forgive me. And did Steve take part in the sort of sex with underage girls? I'm, I, I'm, I don't want this, my, um, stumbling here. I don't want this to seem like I am dissembling because I'm not, I've, I never saw anybody in Epstein world take part in sex with underage girls. And, um, and I certainly did not see, um, see Steve. I mean, the only thing I ever saw in the Epstein world was a lot of men talking about, you know, things that men talk about, like, but not sex, politics, economics, power. Actually, let me say that. They talk about power. That was their main, and I would say, sole interest.

So to me, the Epstein world, you know, I know it's all, it gets all of the attention because of the girls, but it was really, to me, a world of men, power. Which is why Bill Gates enjoyed going there. Exactly. Although I think he met a young bridge player at the same time while he was there. So why was Elon throwing Epstein into the mix in his furious tweeting yesterday? Such, why was it so triggering? Because it seems to have triggered Bannon to go off.

Yeah, I think it's one of those mortal things. I mean, among the many mortal hour, arrows that might hit Trump at any time. And there are so many of them. But the Epstein one seems to have a particular poison tip to it. And somehow he's avoided it. Nobody else has avoided Epstein. Everybody else, if you get, if the suggestion is that you had a relationship,

even an acquaintance with Jeffrey Epstein, that dogs you. Right. It's dogged Bill Gates. Or brings you down. Right. The head of MIT, Alan Dershowitz. But not Trump, who arguably, I would say indisputably, has had the closest relationship with Epstein. I mean, they hunted girls together, hunt, I think being the exact right word. They shared.

Well, you described, when you came on the podcast in November and we played some of the Epstein tapes, he talked about the maneuver that they would do where Donald would go in and Epstein would go in and they would often go in after a woman who was there with a guy and Donald would start talking to the guy about finance and Jeffrey would sort of siphon the woman off to the side. They actually had a sort of maneuver. Yeah, no. And they had there was, you know, they famously staged a beauty contest in Mar-a-Lago and they imported all these girls who thought they were, you know, I don't know.

Well, who thought they were probably going to win a beauty conversation. Exactly. And when the girls got there, they found that there were only, there was the audience and the judges consisted of two men, Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump. So this is what they did. This was their, their, one of their, I mean, they had two interests, girls and money.

And they pursued them together for a long time. Actually, I would say three. Girls, money, and airplanes. And power, right? Girls, money, airplane, power? I think that was during this period of time, which was sort of the 90s, I think it was before power, it was girls' money airplanes. And I think if you had said, here's power or here's girls, they would have taken the girls.

I think maybe power is a function of older. age. But this was a close, close relationship. They shared a girlfriend. There was about a period for about a year that literally they shared, they shared a girlfriend. At the same time? Yes, at the same time. Who was that girlfriend? You know, I know, I know, I know this was a European girl and But let me, the poor girl, let's not. All right, let's move swiftly on. I know poor thing is just probably still in the fetal position. But, you know, and then Epstein helped Trump cheat on his taxes,

and then they ultimately had to fallout, as all rich men do over a piece of real estate. You know, this is a profound relationship. Michael, hold that thought. We're just going to sponsor for a quick break. and we're back after that quick break. We love our sponsors. I should just point out that White House call you a lying sack of shit. They call me a lying piece of shit.

I just want to raise that, as you say, that Epstein helped Trump cheat on his taxes. Yes, please. Raise it, yes. They claim that you fabricate all sorts of things. So I just want to push back on that. I would just say, and it might be interesting. because and and yeah and it is true i don't know that this is true i did not see geoffrey epstein help

don't trump cheat on his taxes but epstein did spell out how he did this which is that and that the the mechanism was uh donald trump borrowed all this money from the banks in the 1990s when he was going bankrupt um oh he didn't borrow he had to borrowed it and then in the process of going bankrupt the banks forgave large amounts of his debt like a billion dollars in debt they they forgave they wrote it off and then Epstein would explain well when that happens when banks forgive debt that becomes income but there is no clear way in which that has to be declared therefore if you don't do it the change are you're going to get away with this, scot-free. And then Epstein would say that's the reason

that Trump has been hiding his tax returns for so long, because that specific amount of money, the billion dollars in debt that he was forgiven, he never paid the tax on the on the imputed income from that, which would have been, you know, half, 50 percent, half a billion dollars. Okay, well, we can call the White House and ask them for comment on that, but in the meantime, I will just remind listeners that the White House's response to you is that you fabricate things and you're a lying sack of shit. Do you think Steve Bannon wants to run for president? You know, he says that to everyone. I think he tells everyone he's going to run for president in 2028. And Elon yesterday responded to a tweet saying that he should be, that Trump should be impeached and that J.D. Vance should be made president. Do you think that Elon Musk is serious about that?

Well, I'm sure he feels that. I mean, I think Elon is, I mean, clearly has a blood score against Donald Trump at this point. And so he probably would like anything bad to happen to Donald Trump. So yeah. Now, the question is, I think, is how is he going to be? pursue this. And how would he, how would he pursue it? There is the thing. Everybody falls out with Donald Trump. Everybody who works for him falls out with him because he screws them and they are remained screwed. So Elon is the first person who, who I think has the

resources and the temerity and the audacity to to not accept being screwed by Donald Trump. And also Donald Trump has some sort of grudging respect for Elon because he's so rich. I mean, he lost, I think, $40 billion yesterday, obviously on paper and clearly doesn't care. Yeah, well, Donald Trump's grudging respect dissipates very quickly if you become his antagonist. I'm mindful of the fact that both of them own social media platforms. When you came on the podcast earlier this week, you reminded us that, Trump, yes, he's president, but he's also head of truth social. And to some extent, this is the two of them playing to their audiences, isn't it? I mean, both truth social and Twitter yesterday were on

fire with the vehemence with which these two men were firing at each other. Yeah, it's, you know, it's not only playing to their audience, it's playing to their business model. If you own a social network, what is the most valuable thing, you know, conflict? Right. Eyeballs. Yeah. Anthony Scaramucci said that another person to be fired very publicly by Trump said that he thought the Democrats should welcome back Elon Musk. At the time, it seemed like a somewhat lateral idea, but now it seems like actually rather a good idea. The contortions of that seem beyond me.

Well, what is that thing about your enemy's enemy is your enemy? I can never remember that line. Well, that's why I say the contortions. I think although you can certainly say, you know, Tesla is, you know, has a brand problem. You know, who bought Tesla's? Liberals bought Tesla's. Then Elon goes to work for Trump, the enemy of the liberals. Therefore, Tesla is my enemy.

If he now becomes the enemy of Trump, then Tesla's are my friend. I don't. Trump has now. that he's giving his Tesla away. I had a Tesla and gave it back, actually, but I will say largely because it really didn't work. And when I endlessly complained about it and constantly tried to get it fixed, they told me it was from a rogue batch in November 21. A rogue batch. They said, oh, that was a rogue batch. It wasn't very good. I had a car that was a lemon. It was annoying. All right, well, we're going to stay tuned to this story. Who knows what Steve Bannon has said.

In fact, I should check on Twitter that he hasn't said anything in the last 10 minutes. try to get Steve to come on this, this podcast. We absolutely should. I would love to know what he's thinking, but Steve Bannon is trending. I'm just looking to see if he said anything else. Oh, he's saying let's fucking go. And

yeah, for all the Elon fanboys, Elon promised a trillion dollars in cuts but delivered recessions with no teeth. Fanboys, grab your pencils, the GOP, shot down the real fight. No fraud money was found from Social Security.

no waist cut, just talk. But that would logically be a smear against Trump too and then. Trump is the person who hired Elon. Right. Although Howard Lutnik also claims to have hired Elon. I don't see this as being very good for Howard Lutnik either. I literally was in the room when he said, I hired Elon and I tell Elon what to do. You know, always the AIDS Iraq, Trump have said the first one to go would be Elon. The second one to go would be Lutnik. So let's see. Okay, so we'll be back here next week talking about Howard Lutnik then.

Michael, thank you. I suspect we're going to come back to you so often over the next few days as this plays out. It does feel like it's a zero-sum game at this point and someone is going to have to win this. Or do you think it just fizzles out? It does feel that way, but I've often felt this, that. that someone was going to win, that Trump was going to lose, I guess I've often felt. And he never does. Well, he lost in 2020.

Well, I'm not sure how you judge a loss that then becomes a win. Right. Okay. All right. Michael, thank you very much. All right. Have fun. And we'll be back to you soon.

See you. So there you have it. The latest installment on the biggest fight going on right now. And of course, both men, owners of social media platforms, both feeding their audience, the red meat of insults. And Steve Bannon now trying to elbow Elon Musk out of the way to resume his place next to Trump's side. We'll be continuing to cover this with Michael. Stay tuned.

This podcast was produced by Devin Rodgerino, Anna von Erson, and it was edited by Jesse Millwood. And don't forget, be beast. Want more great listens? Check out our comedy podcast, The Last Laugh, and our star-studded The Daily Beast podcast at the Daily Beast.com slash podcasts. If you enjoyed this episode, consider becoming a Daily Beast subscriber. Subscribing is the best way to feed the beast and support all of your podcasts as we cover what might become the darkest timeline.

Head to the DailyBeast.com slash membership slash podcast and sign up today.