The Daily Beast Podcast - Your Fav Comedians Want You to Shut Up About Cancel Culture

Episode Date: December 25, 2022

If you’re an avid listener of The New Abnormal, you might have heard co-host Andy Levy ask his comedian guests a question: What do you think of when you hear the term “cancel culture?” Turns out, they all had a lot to say on the subject and as our holiday gift to you, we compiled all of their answers in this bonus episode. Patton Oswalt talks about political violence, Conan sidekick Andy Richter shares why he loves cancel culture, and Modern Family’s Danny Zuker puts Dave Chappelle on blast. Plus! Dr. Mustafa Santiago Ali from the National Wildlife Fund joins show co-host Danielle Moodie at the end of the show to talk about how the climate crisis is impacting communities of color, and by impacting we mean killing, and the one thing that can be done to solve it all. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, I'm Andy Levy, former Fox News and CNN-HLN guy, and current cable news conscientious objector. I'm a former libertarian who now sits pretty comfortably on the left. Hi, I'm Danielle Moody, former educator and recovering lobbyist. But today, I'm an unapologetic, woke commentator on America's threats to democracy. And I'm producer Jesse Cannon, and I'm here to make sure things don't go too far off the rails. We're here to have fun, smart conversations with some of the most knowledgeable and entertaining people in politics, media, and beyond. goal is to try and make sense of our current crazy world, our new abnormal, and hopefully even make you laugh through the tears. We're off for the holidays already, but that doesn't mean we didn't

take you an amazing show beforehand. We're going to be joined by Mustafa Santiago Ali, who's at the National Wildlife Fund, and he's going to talk to us about the many threats to our climate these days. But first, Andy's had so many great conversations this year about cancel culture, so we assembled some of them all together, and it's a whole lot of fun and very interesting. Hey folks, Andy Levy here. For the past couple months, I've been using our Sunday bonus episodes as a chance to talk to some entertainers, folks who aren't in the political sphere, but who are smart, funny, and most definitely politically aware. People like Patton Oswald, Andy Richter, Tim Heideker, Paul F. Tompkins, Andy Kindler, and Danny Zucker. And I sort of accidentally hit upon asking just about all of them a version of the same question, one that has assumed an outsized role in how we talk about a lot of things. And that question is, what do they think of when they hear the phrase, cancel culture. Anyway, I started jokingly saying that I had a master plan to turn this repeated question into a compilation episode, and apparently my jokes manifested reality, which is a power I didn't even know I had, because that's what this is. I think listening to all these answers

back to back is fascinating, and I hope you do too. First up is actor, comedian, guy who does everything and is always obnoxiously good at it, Paul F. Tompkins. This was my first of these, so as you'll hear, I hadn't quite honed in on the exact question yet. So we are a lot these days from conservative actors, writers, people out in Hollywood or in the entertainment business in general, how they can't get work in the biz because of their politics. When you hear that, like, what is it that you think? How tiresome is it? Or is there some truth to it? I don't think there's any truth to it because basically, if you're a nice person, everyone wants to work with you, right? Right. And you can even be an asshole as long as you are considered.

some kind of genius or some kind of undeniable box office star. But Kevin Sorbo was already done. Right. And it had nothing to do with his politics. James Woods, I don't think, is the nicest guy in the world. And I think that time wore on. And there's plenty of people in Hollywood who aren't working at James Woods' age, who are Democrats. Right.

You know what I mean? Right. He used to work as much as he did and don't anymore. And it's not because of their politics. it's because that's Hollywood, baby. It's such a lie. It's such a lie. And these guys love to be victims so much. But they should know better because that's the nature of this business.

But there is a hard thing when you are successful for a while, you know, at the level that these guys were. If you're Kevin Sorbo, you're the lead of a show that was very successful. And then that ends. And then people are like, well, this guy's actually not that great as an actor. You know what I mean? There's not a ton of, he's not a chameleon. you know what I mean? So, you know, that people moved on. And, you know, although Hercules was a successful show, it ran for many years in syndication. It was a sort of niche kind of thing. And it's not, I don't think he ever crossed over into the mainstream in that way, you know, as other people have done. And it's like the parts that I don't get, I absolutely blame anything I can except me. But I'm sorry to say it has nothing to do with politics. Mel Gippton is working again. You know what I mean? I always bring that up.

It's like every time I look, Mel Gibson's in another movie. And he actually is not just like, oh, he's got some bad politics. He did really shitty stuff. He said some of the books. Yeah. Horrific things that we all heard. Yeah. And he had to go to sit in a corner for a few years.

Right. And then he's back. And it's like, not only is he back, it's like nothing ever happened. Yeah. And look, he's a super talented guy. And I, you know, I sadly, I enjoy a lot of his films. but there's no doubt that if you were going to like blackball someone, you know, strictly for their views and for the things that they've said, it would be him.

Yeah, if you were going to blackball someone and feel extremely confident that you had a case, it would be Mel Gibson. But yeah, these other guys, it's just, that's just the way it goes. It also sort of strikes me and it struck me as you were talking about him, but like someone like Kevin Sorbo might actually be learning what it's like to be a woman in Hollywood. where when he was young and a pinup guy, he was getting work. And now he's older and it's not that he looks bad for his age or anything. He absolutely doesn't. He looks great. But he ain't in his 20s.

He ain't in his 30s. And what do you know? It's getting harder for him to find work. Just like you might say it is in general for women out there. In Hollywood, ageism is ageism. And if you can't become a character actor, then you're done. Right. Hollywood has no.

once you stop being pretty, Hollywood has no use for you. Right. Especially if you can, if you're not like the strongest actor, let's say. Right, exactly. Absolutely. Next up is Andy Kindler, whom you may recognize from his recurring role on everybody loves Raymond. Andy has earned the moniker the comedian's comedian and is an absolute legend in the comedy world. And also, he makes me laugh like nobody else. I want to start with a phrase that we hear all the time now. And that phrase is cancel culture.

And I want to... I know. Well, I want to talk to... you about cancel culture and as it pertains to comedy. And I want to know, when you hear that phrase, what's the first thing you think of? I think of right-wing comedians who don't like it when you criticize their act, so they have come up with a phony issue. I tend to agree with you there. And it just, it always, like, but all these people, you know, I always hear about how brave, you know, all these people are, uh, and how they're risking being canceled because they're still doing.

And it's always like, you know, it's always racial humor or rape jokes or just something that like, you know, most people have sort of decided, hey, we don't need to do that anymore. And they're out there going, no, I'm, I'm brave. I'm the truth teller out here. Right. Now, I will say this one thing. I mean, this is actually the example that's always brought up about this topic is that there was a woman. She was a PR person and she was on a plane and she did some, whatever, some casually. She thought it was funny, but it was like, she's not going to.

get AIDS. I forget what the joke was. By the time she had landed, she had been completely fired. So I do think that, and I'm not saying she shouldn't have been fired or whatever. I'm saying is there is that thing where the whole world comes down on you with shaming culture. So I do think that people can make mistakes and they can apologize for the sake. But the things that upset me are like, where there aren't mistakes. It's like, for example, like, I've been arguing for the whole last week about Louis C.K. And all these people argue that he took, he apologized, and he took responsibility. This is just false. Yes. They take that. And in fact, I'm going to say anything that comes by mind you. You can take out anything. But I remember,

like, Louis was dating somebody from France. And the woman in France had said, he asked every single person if it was okay that he exposed himself. So why? These are lies. Right. So the point is, is that cancel culture, I mean, cancel culture, forget about the use of it as a gimmick. But the idea that you're going to pay that you should be no blowback for your comments.

And you should be able to say this. And that's why I, you know, like, that New York article makes me white with rage is that it seems to be saying the New York article, like came back, seems to be saying that a genius, genius comedy can only come in a format where someone like Shane Gillis

can say, you know, use the C-H-S word. I'm not going to even say, because I don't go that route. Sure. I don't go the route that these guys go, like you see on Rogan or whatever, they go, hey, we got to use the, we have to, like are Josh Zeps?

I'm using so many names here, but there are also people I don't like. It's like, we have to use the M word. And it's like, it's just ridiculous. It's like, what was the blowback from Louis? He should have been, who wants to work with him after all this? Nobody at FX, nobody else.

But guess who's still making a wonderful living? Louis C.K. Yeah, and he's acting like he's been victimized. No, that's absolutely right. And the thing is, it's like, you know, again, there's a difference between people who make a mistake. And, you know, Louis X.K.

didn't mistakenly take his penis out and masturbate in front of women without their consent on multiple occasions. Right. He knew exactly what he was doing because he's not stupid. So he knew there was a power dynamic there that whether or not the women wanted to stay, some of them felt like, you know what, I can't leave because this guy could decide whether I continue to be on stage or not. That's right.

So the idea that, like, we call this, oh, well, he's paid enough. It's not up to me to decide that Luis E.K. should never work again. It's up to people whether or not they still want to see him. I would never, in my life, would I pay money to see him again? And obviously, there are people who don't agree with that. And that's fine, but that's not cancel culture. Or it's not how they use the phrase. What it is is, it's sort of almost like a, it's like a, you know, it's like capitalism. It's like the market deciding. Right. And the thing is about this is that, you know, this is a thing that really bothers me. So I'm going to be totally honest. And again, you know, you can. We'll cut out all your honesty. Okay. I have never liked Louis C.K. Actually, I loved Louis C.K. when I first met him. And I wanted to be friends with him. Like, everybody who meets him. He is an extremely manipulative, ambitious person who always came off like, I'm not ambitious.

I'm not this way. There's nobody who wanted to be more famous than Louis C.K. And so, like, I'll give you a perfect example. And I've never told the story before because I don't care anymore. What am I hiding it from? I was walking during the time period when Louis C.K. was writing for Conan. I guess he was writing for Conan. I can't remember all the years together. So you have to check on me. So I came upon him in New York. I just have been walking and I forgot where I was. And he was there. And I'm not going to say he wasn't like drunk, but he certainly was very, very, very, very, very. I thought he had been drinking because he was very, very, very loose-lipped. And he was saying things to me like Conan knows I'm funny than him. He knows it. He just can't. can't deal with it. I'm the funniest thing on that show. And Conan knows, Conan knows that he can never be as funny. This is what he said to my face. This is what he said to my face. So here's a guy. And then I don't know about the thing at Letterman, but apparently, I wasn't there, but the thing of Letterman was he claims that they told him to go in and complain at the end to Letterman about being, you know, that they weren't using him. So it's like he's always had these power struggles everywhere. But if he's going to, to manipulate on a show like Conan O'Brien just because he thinks he's the best con. You don't think he's the relationship with these women that he's sexually abused is some

kind of a thing that didn't happen. Like it was like not an example of him being the way he is in every single part of his life where he wants it. He's going to get it. And he's manipulating it because it's power. It's clearly power. Sorry from going on like a schmeckle. No, I think that's absolutely right, though, but I do want to move, you brought this up, but I want to go into a little more detail in it. A couple of weeks ago, there was this piece in The New Yorker that was called Shane Gillis's Fall and Rise. So Shane Gillis is a comedian, and back in 2019, Saturday Night Live hired him, and then after some old podcast comments of his that didn't not include racial slurs for Chinese people, were surfaced by a journalist named Seth Simons. He was unhired by S&L four days later.

So now the New Yorker decided to do a piece on him and what he's up to now. And judging by the one or two tweets that you, I'm sorry, that's a typo, that's one or 200 tweets that you have posted about this. The piece really bothers you. I think that, yeah, exactly. Well, it was well written. No, the piece is the worst, it's the worst thing I've ever experienced in written form. And here's the backstory.

My parents have, I've been subscribing to the New Yorker since I was 21 years old. I'm 75, 60, and my parents did. How old are you, Andy? But I could be, how old is 50? I'm older than that. So this is like a great magazine, you know, except it's not a great. My problem is I overvalue things, but it's like I kind of have this view that, you know, it's a sophisticated magazine. And Hilton Al, if I'm pronouncing his name, he wrote a great review in the New Yorker, just trashing Louis C.K.'s last.

special. So I don't know what happened if the New Yorker or, but the point is, is that they're all basically saying that this guy did say, called Chinese people, used the C word for Chinese people, really didn't apologize for it, but that this is somehow, I don't know what the argument was. The guy was basically saying, the guy who wrote the article was saying, there's two ways you can look at comedy. One way is you want comics who agree with you and are resonant with your, with your positions. So like if you are, you know, you're not anti, you're pro trans. Is that kind of comedy or there's comedy that just says whatever you want and says whatever's happening? That's a phony premise. There's no, nobody goes out. I don't go out to say pro trans,

things on stage. It's not a form of comedy. I'm reacting to Dave Chappelle. Right. Dashing and trashing these people. So the person who wrote this idea basically has the winner in the comedy pool, because it was a fallen rise, the winners in the comedy pool of life and creativity are Louisa K, Shane Gillis, because Shane Gillis said, I'll apologize to you personally, if you thought it hurt

your feelings. And people keep saying, have you heard his act? I have no desire to hear his act. I don't care about his act. I wouldn't have listened to anything. I wouldn't have been aware of it if I hadn't seen the stories, which he admits to, you know? It's like, how do I know if he's going down

wherever he was in the village and he was using the C.S. How do I know that they isn't call me a, can I use a word against myself? Yes. He could call me a kike, right? And then I go, oh, well, that's cool. What is cool about it? What is, there's nothing cool? And that is set up as if it's somehow a creative choice. It's brave. That's right. And the thing is, everybody thinks the article starts out with the premise that this guy didn't go and complain later. he just basically said, look, I, you know, I guess they should have fired me. And that's considered to be a wonderful thing.

He should have been ashamed. He never actually said, he said, I'm going to say these kind of wild things again, right? Right. Well, that's the thing. And, you know, so he did this stuff on a podcast, and he said bad things. And then he did like a just unbelievably hacky, quote unquote Chinese accent like you would have heard in a 1950s movie, you know, or something. like that. Again, I'm not saying he shouldn't be able to work for the rest of his life. I'm saying,

I'm like you, I have no desire to see his show. Right. And he may be very funny. But you know what? There are a lot of people out there who are very funny who don't go around using racist words for Chinese people. So it's not like, it's not like you have to choose between, oh, funny and racist and not funny. Like those are your only two choices. That's like, you know, that's what bugs me is when they sort of set it up like that. Well, it's also calculated because if he, does he use the N word like that? Does he use the N word like that? My, my feeling is like I don't understand why any white person, no white person should ever use the N word. Any black person can use the N word. It's a simple rule. Right. Except Louis K. apparently. Right. So, but he knows, he knows not to use the N word.

I'm not saying he would use the N word, but he knows where he can push. So as he's going, we get these, whatever, he knows that that's not, until recently, people weren't even aware that there were, you know, weren't admitting outside of the Asian community that there was all this hate. And there's been so much hate and so much, but because it's like a little bit left, he goes against a group that not is not everybody is like primed. He gets away with it. But that's worse to me. Well, you raise a good point. It's like, where's the New Yorker article on Michael Richards? Yeah. And Michael Richards, What was, and does anyone

I'm going to say that was, yeah, here's the other thing. Here's what I use the word cancel for. I've been thinking for the last week, I might cancel. Most of your shows. I may or may not cancel my subscription to the New Yorker. That is not me saying that it is, I demand that the New Yorker stop writing articles about him.

I am expressing my outrage. And this is the thing though is, to me, this is a perfect example, a small example of it. Let's say I was a coming, I was the president of ABC programming and someone came in and they said, I want you to put the Hitler hour on, put the Nazi hour on. Would I be obligated to put it on because of some misunderstanding of what free speech is? No, I'm not obligated to do things that go against. It's just like you're not obligated in a war to start shooting people indiscriminately. I'm not obligated as a human being. to sign off on white supremacy, you know, unless I'm at Fox News, in which case that's part of the pitch.

Right. Well, and that gets to a thing also. It's like the people who sort of pride themselves on being these free speech warriors and they're always like, you know, are they're anti-cancel culture and you should be able to say anything. They don't actually believe that because there are things they won't say and there are things that they think are beyond the pale. It's just that they draw a different line, but then they set themselves up as, you know, as sort of these heroes of free speech, but they're not really, like, again, they'll be like, oh, Seth Simons used a slur against Chinese people. Should he pay for that forever? No, but then they'll say, not Seth Simon, St. Billis. Yeah, yeah, I apologize to Seth Simons for that. But then if you gave them another example,

you would say, oh, well, you can't say that. It's just that they draw the line in a different place, but then they set themselves up as these, you know, free speech warriors, which, I just maintain they're actually not. Right. And they're not free speech, because the other thing is, like, as I started to talk about this article, I get a lot of people from the,

you know, Legion of, I call them the Legion of Spanx. And I laugh hilariously to myself. Because that's what those guys are ending up doing. They're in a hotel room spanking. And that's about as blue as I'm going to get. But the Legion of Spanx,

you started to get this borderline things like, hey, why don't you come here and fight me? And it's like, I'm not going for the, they're saying free sports. speech ends at me criticizing and telling the truth about them being racists or whatever that I'm saying. That's where free speech ends to them. No, exactly. And I just want, you're talking about the Legion of Skanks is what they're known as, what they're self-identified as.

And it's a, it's sort of this comedy sort of, I don't know, troop isn't the right word, but it's, it's Louis J. Gomez and I guess Dave Smith. I don't know if he's still part of that and some others. And I don't even know Dave's. I'm just recently hearing about Dave Smith. Dave Smith, I actually know, I mean, I, look, I have a, hey, let me finish, Andy. This is the kind of people that we should know. I'm kidding. I was going the other way. Let me finish, Eddie.

I like him. I don't know anything about it. But I've been hearing not so good things about what he says, but I don't know. Dave Smith is a very nice guy personally. I mean, I've known him for a while, but I don't like where his politics have gone. He was a libertarian who suddenly, as many libertarians did, became all too comfortable with the alt-right for my taste. You know, I've said this joke before, Andy. You've heard it's like, in the old days it was like, I was angry at the comedy

was so hacked with the, whether it's the guy the drive-thru at McDonald's sounds like. But I never thought it could end the world, as we know it. I never thought people would die because Adam Carolla saying don't get vaccines. Yeah, it's sort of unbelievable where it's gone. Next on the list is my personal all-time favorite late-night talk show sidekick for his work with Conan O'Brien and someone who is incredibly smart and talented in his own right, Andy Richter. I want to start with what do you think of when you hear the phrase cancel culture? What comes to your mind?

Mostly what I feel about it is it's about time. It's about time we stop saying lots of the things that we say. And it's about time that we stopped not caring about how things that we say that we don't have to say. Like words that we don't have to use. Like the word for little people, the M word. Like that was just a comedy staple, just spilling out of everybody. mouth. And I never thought about it. And there was a point in which, and I mean, I was already, like, I had been on TV for years and I found out, oh, that word's really hurtful to a lot of people

and makes them feel like shit. Oh, well, that's easy enough. I'm not going to say that word anymore. That's the nice welcome mat front door into it. It gets all fucked up because people, it's mostly fucked up on the side of the people that are doing bad things. For me, like if I look at it mainly in comedy. Because the way that people present it to me all the time is my fiance and her daughter, we were at a ballet class like for her two and a half year old

and I was sitting outside the ballet studio and some numb nuts creases my ear for 20 minutes and I'm too fucking Midwestern to just be rude. I have little techniques to sort of end the conversation like a glance at the phone or a glance at the watch or like go over and look into the window of the dance studio as he follows me and keeps talking.

But he kept going. a lot of time in his hands. But one of his things was, don't you just think it's impossible to do comedy anymore? What with this cancel culture? And it's just like, no, no, not if you're not fucking lazy. If you're lazy, maybe. But then don't do this. Do something else. And that's what I feel about it. Like, can you make cases where the punishment was larger than the crime in some cases? Yes. But in what area of punishment does that not happen? And for the most part, people that have gotten in trouble deserve to get in trouble. And the whole point of it is five years ago, they wouldn't have gotten in trouble. So this is good. The world is changing for the better. We can't do Amos and Andy anymore. That's a really good thing. And at the time, there were people who were complaining about, well, it's just funny. Isn't comedy supposed to be about what everyone's thinking? No. Comedy is supposed to be funny. And if it's starts to be gross and ugly, then it's not fucking funny anymore, unless you're gross and

ugly. So a lot of this was Twitter. I received a real education in terms of ways in which being funny publicly, it leaned it up. It was like there was loose, goosey areas where I could kind of dabble in sort of like make a joke that's kind of ablest. Find out I shouldn't do that joke. And then I go, okay, for me, the best comedy, the best drama, it's when it's when it threads the needle of the sort of strictures against it. Like, you're telling a story. Like, there's disbelief. If you can get around disbelief, you've really accomplished something. Because most shitty stories, you go, don't buy it, don't buy it, don't buy it. And with comedy, if you can still be funny with all of these supposed weights tied to you, like common decency and

concern for others. If you can do that, that's really great. You're really, you're swinging at a high batting average and you're doing work that you should aspire to yourself and that other people should aspire to also. Yeah. And it really burns me up like I saw Musk tweeted a few days ago. He used to be like, comedy is now legal again on Twitter or something like that. And then I saw Dane Cook replied and he's like, is it okay to be funny on here again? And I was like, what couldn't you say that you think you can say now that you think is funny? Like, give me an example. Like, do you want to just type the N word over and over again? Is that fun? funny to you? Like, I don't know what these, like, Dane Cook is a professional comedian. You're telling me

he couldn't be funny on Twitter until Elon Musk bought the stupid site. I'm struck by this all the time. Put you in a situation where you have to call out, like, just the dumbest shit. Like the fact that, like, can we be funny on Twitter again? That's so fucking stupid. Like, if somebody said that in your office, you would just ignore them. Just go, shut up. Gary, zip it. Just, just, Everyone would be quiet and someone who would change the subject and you'd move on. But no, you've got to fucking answer whether or not this absurd notion that somehow comedy is being crippled by left-wing wokeism. Fuck you. Just be funny, motherfucker. No funny people are saying this.

I mean, there's a couple. There's a couple people like Dave Chappelle is kind of stuck on an issue that keeps him out of the good graces of most people in comedy. and he seems to be stuck on it. He's a really, really funny guy, though. He is chosen to digging his heels about this issue. That's kind of a rarity. I haven't heard anything. And Louis C.K., I worked with him on Conan,

and he was a friend of mine, but I haven't heard anything he's done in a while. But he's a genius. He's a fucking genius. He did some bad stuff. And I call him a genius, but I haven't listened to anything he's done because, I mean, well, A, I don't listen to a lot of things.

I just, my attention spans so bad. put on people that I loves like they're special like they got an hour forget it. It's got to be a half hour. Half hour tops. And sometimes like minute 20 of the half hour. I'm like let's wrap it up. Okay. I really love you.

I think you're brilliant. But come on. That's where TikTok is great. Yeah. Well, all of these, all of these attention span crushers have just ruined me. Just ruined me too. Me too. I tried to show my kids a number of years.

ago like SCTV. Like kids, you gotta see this show. It's the fucking funniest. I could not believe how long everything takes on STTV. A commercial parody

that lasts four minutes. There was a time when I thought that was beautifully paced and worth every second. And now I'm just like, get to it, get to it,

get to it. This has been another episode of getting old with Andy and Annie. I know, I know. Yeah, but anyway,

so cancel it'll calm down and it'll just be like it'll become the period of necessary growth that American society needed to undergo. Very well spoken. Thank you. We'll edit that out. I'm smart. Patton Oswald is another legend in the comedy world and more recently he's been getting noticed as a pretty damn fine actor as well. His most recent comedy special We All Scream is on Netflix and is absolutely hilarious.

What do you think of when you hear the phrase cancel culture? Like what comes to mind almost instantly? All I hear is consequences. First off, I love that people have completely muddled the term cancel culture in that cancel culture started out with people that were actually committing crimes, rapes and assaults and that were powerful, that weren't paying for them that are now having to pay for this kind of stuff. And people are trying to go, well, I'm being canceled for what I'm saying.

It's like, no, you committed some rapes. I don't think this is a Lenny Bruce situation. I think that you are an actual criminal. Most people that say or do things that are controversial or hurtful or demand an apology that doesn't really seem to affect their career. If anything, it seems like if you lean into it, you have this guaranteed audience of, unfortunately, they're orcs, but they are an audience and they will, they'll buy, it's almost like they'll buy your product at the woke and the left wing just to show them.

They don't necessarily like your product, but they'll buy it just to. To own the lips. You know, they'll review bomb your movie, even though they'll never see it, even though they don't really like movies or appreciate music. But if that's the kind of audience you want, if you're purely in it for commerce sake, then that's a path to go. But for the most part, I've never understood this. Like, I will never apologize. I will never. No regrets.

I regret tons of, you constantly make mistakes. And then you go, oh, man, my bad. And then you learn and you move along. I've never understood this. I will. Like, I think I saw someone saying, at least my kids. will know that their father never apologized. Like, that's a legacy to leave.

Right. My kids will know that their father never learned and never grew. Like, that was their thing that they were so proud of. It's like, oh, dude. But again, because everything is now saved and, oh, I got screenshoted. If you make a mistake and that, then you're supposed to be defined by that mistake forever. People have screenshot bad things and stupid stuff I've tweeted and go, yeah, that was a stupid thing. I made a mistake.

You just apologize and roll on for it. But I come from that world of, I did years of open mics where I just had horrible sets and you ate it. And then you went up the next night and got a little bit better because a lot of these people, they're not going to ever stick with anything. They're never going to actually build or grow. Their whole thing is, well, I'm just going to own, I'll own you. Here's a photo of a shitty tweet you sent.

So there it is. That's you forever. It's like, sorry. No, I actually apologize for that. I'm just moving on. You know, that's where you're living. Yeah, it just seems to be the easiest thing in the world is to not apologize for something. Apologizing can be difficult.

Yeah. It's real. Hey, trust me, apologizing is really difficult. Yeah. And also, it's something that apologizing is something that insecure people really can't do. It's terrifying for them. Right. So the people that are like, I've never apologized.

That's just a way of going, I am terrified 24-7. Yeah, which, I mean, basically describes any person who self-describes as an alpha male or something like that. That's what they think they are a terrified little boy. I mean, we know that. You know, that's just obvious. And last up is five-time Emmy winner as an executive producer of the Blockbuster sitcom Modern Family, Danny Zucker. I hope you enjoyed this. And if you didn't, you should probably listen again because I think you'll change your mind.

What do you think of when you hear the phrase cancel culture? It infuriates me. I have to be honest with you. Here's the thing about cancel culture. I hear about cancel culture all the time. Like, I hear about people being canceled on Twitter, on Twitter for four years. Right. Who's getting canceled exactly?

What is getting canceled? Like, what does that mean exactly? And especially in the world of comedy, it really pisses me off because I think this. I think that for as long as people have been doing stand-up comedy, there have been people who have protested and wanted them off the air. It's happened forever. And I do think the only difference right now is that people are whining about it so much. Comedians are whining about it a lot.

And it doesn't strike. Like if canceled culture were a thing and if the Jews controlled Hollywood, let's put those two things together. Really? Why is Mel Gibson still making movies? I wish I controlled Hollywood. But why is that? Why would that be happening? Like who exactly is getting canceled?

because I've been thinking about this a lot, the Chappelle monologue that was just on Saturday Live. And I actually love Dave Chappelle. I sound like him at the beginning of the beginning of the beginning of the monologue. I like Jews. He's like, I'm my best friend. I like Chappelle. Right. He's a genius.

And I like that monologue, most of it. But the thing is, I know how he feels, by the way. I don't think it's right. But the way that he is feeling about like saying something about the Jews, I don't want to cancel Dave Chappelle, but if I can't criticize a false premise in his monologue, I'm like, I'm allowed to do that. I feel like there's so much more risk in criticizing him than him doing his act. He's not going to get canceled.

He's going to get to go on and do this all. The one thing you could say about shoes as a group and it doesn't go the whole way is that like kind of have a sense of humor. Like we are constantly. Ben Brooks in the 60s wrote springtime for Hitler. It's not like a thing. People can make jokes about us. We're like famously doing that.

I would suggest that people who are like Chappelle or I feel this way about Bill Mar too, they're the thin skin ones. Yeah, absolutely. Like Bill Ma complains about like political correctness of college. I would contend that maybe colleges don't want him because most of his act is just vitriol at millennials and Gen Zing. It's all get off my lawn. These kids with this and they're all thin skin

and they're all and they're all like so sensitive. And you just can hear them complaining. Like every generation rolls its eyes at the next or the previous. It's like it's always happens. Of course. I don't want to see somebody on a TV show or in a comedy club or in my business

who is cornering women who is like being predatory. When I've run a show or when I've been on a show or like worked on a show, the only difference is, is like when I'm on a staff, I can make all these jokes because no one else's job is depending on, like, they don't have to laugh at what I'm saying because I'm just an employee there. But when I'm running a show or I'm in charge, there's just a duty not to be a fucking bully. Like, you have to understand that there's that shifting dynamic. Like women, comedy writers that I've worked with who have had long careers, they're the best comedy writers in a way, because they've had to, like, deal with all of the obstacles I've had to deal with to get to a career,

plus dealing with superiors, like, egos and the subtle thing. So, like, I don't think that's a bad thing to, like, cut out. You know, I just don't. I remember Camel, Bill Maher got, you know, was used the N-word on his show in the real time, you know, in a way. And there was an uproar and, like, about it. But Kumail, Najiani said the best thing. It's like, well, let's see, you run the world. You get paid more.

You don't get shot by cops. Not saying one word feels like a small price to pay for that. That is literally something I used to say. I had no idea. Camel said it. It's such an easy thing. I know. Good deal.

Like, you'll take that deal. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's fine. Yeah. I would take that every time. Dr. Mustafa Santiago Ali, it has been forever since. I've had the opportunity to speak with you.

And you are now the Executive Vice President at the National Wildlife Federation. I have known you for so many years as an environmental justice warrior, somebody who has spent their entire career trying to sound the alarm on so many ways in which the environment and climate change affects marginalized communities.

And so, one, Congrats on the new position. I want to talk to you today about how we continue to keep an issue like climate change that only seems to grab media attention when we have these devastating disasters, whether it is in this country or abroad. It's the only time that we talk really seriously for about, you know, maybe a couple of days. Maybe we get a week out of it. And then we go back to business as normal. Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me. You know, I've always been such a big fan of you and the work that you've always done as long as I've known you. And thank you for just continue to put a spotlight on injustice wherever it might be. And this is just another example of that. You know, we often have important conversations about the climate crisis or the climate emergency that we're dealing with, but we fail to actually go back to the root causes of how we got here. The systemic racism that was built into policy that allowed for black and brown and lower wealth communities to be the dumping grounds and the sites for many of the fossil fuel facilities that have played a significant role in the challenges that we have. So when you ask that important question about how we only pay attention when one of the wildfires gets larger and larger or the hurricanes or the floods or actually rivers disappearing, you know, we've got real significant issues that are also happening inside of our communities

that's tied to the pollution that is warming up our planet. Harvard had a study that came out recently that said, we've got about 250,000 plus people who are dying prematurely from air pollution every year in our country. And we know disproportionately is black and brown and low-wealth communities, the ones who are losing their lives. We've got 24 million folks with asthma and 7 million kids. And again, it's black and brown kids

are the ones that are going to the emergency rooms and the ones who are unfortunately are losing their lives. So I think that one of the challenges and sets of opportunities that we have in front of us is to actually talk about these real-world impacts that are happening in communities across our country that are playing a role also into the driving of the climate crisis. When we don't do that, I think for everyday folks, it makes it more difficult for them to actually see how these impacts are playing out in their lives. And, of course, it plays out in health care costs, it plays out in job loss, it plays out in educational loss,

and so many other things that I know you often highlight and talk about in such an effective way on your show. You know, one of the things that I think about on a daily basis, as I know that you must, is that every day that I get up, you know, to turn on my faucet, to brush my teeth, to take a shower. I think about the fact that Flint, Michigan still doesn't have a proper water system. I think about Jackson, Mississippi. And I think about the governor there who had a water tank outside of his mansion. while the citizens that live in Jackson were outside looking for bottled water in order to have their basic needs met. How do we point to these issues and put significant light on them in a way that it isn't just, oh, look at those poor black folks over there.

If only they would vote. If only they would take care of themselves. If only they would lift themselves up from their bootstraps, how do we create the narrative? like you're saying that is steeped in systemic racism, that these were choices that are being made. This isn't just, it isn't an accident, right? That these were purposeful choices that are being made to neglect communities and put them in harm's way because at the end of the day, they don't matter. Yeah, as you so aptly put it, you know, these were intentional choices that folks have made. Not the folks who live in the communities, but how these communities have been and where they've been placed.

and the disinvestments. So let's unpack that a little bit. You know, we are very clear, and history has shown us, and it's playing out even to today, around red lighting and restrictive covenances of how people were placed and pushed into certain areas, and then the disinvestments that happened in those communities, those disinvestments, and infrastructure. And that infrastructure could be, you know, drinking water infrastructure, wastewater infrastructure, and who gets hospitals and clinics, and who doesn't or who's closed down first. So all of these things are tied into sets of choices that elected officials have made about winners and losers. We always hear, you know, one of the parties talking about, well, we shouldn't be choosing winners or losers,

but we continually have done that through policy over the years. And now we see that places like Flint and Jackson that you mentioned. But when we were doing the work in Flint, Michigan, And we also knew that there were over 3,000 other locations across our country that had higher levels of lead in their water than Flint did. We've got 1.1 million folks in our country who have been lead poisoned over the years. So now, in this moment, we have one, the resources to actually address the problem, right, through things like the Bipartisan Infrastructure Act and the Inflation Reduction Act and a number of other pieces that the resources there. The question becomes, Danielle, are we willing to actually, one, hold people accountable and two, make sure that those

dollars actually make it to the spaces and places that need them the most? And for us to be able to do that, that does mean that we've got to make sure that we have these elected officials who are willing to stand up and do the right thing. And to make sure that these areas that have often been unseen and unheard actually finally have a voice in the process and also have the resources that they need to be able to make the change that, you know, this is not rocket science, right? This is not about us trying to go to Mars and figure out all the dynamics that are there. These are common sense steps that we can do, but it means that we have to prioritize these communities that have been carrying the burden while everybody else has been able to actually benefit from the taxes that are paid.

And these are taxpaying citizens who we have not met their needs. You know, and that's what gets me, too, is that these are taxpaying citizens. right, that are paying into a system that does not see them, that actually refuses to see them. And we see this playing out not only in this country, but on a global scale, where it is the countries that are led by and are inhabited by largely black indigenous people of color that put out less carbon, like less than 1% of the carbon that is creating the climate crisis, and yet they are going to be 90% of those that are impacted by it. we saw it with the floods in Pakistan. We saw it with the floods in Nigeria. And so at the same time,

we hear that the wealthiest nations that come together, the ones that have been able to, you know, industrialize at a rate that has caused such harm, are not meeting the standards that they've set for themselves. And so I'm wondering, when we see this happening on both a domestic scale in the United States, but then on a global one, you know, what does it look like for us to really take meaningful action that isn't just lip service? Let's just give folks a couple of the facts that hopefully will have some meaning to folks. You know, right now we have more carbon in our atmosphere from the burning of fossil fuels. It's been like three million years since the last time we've had this much carbon.

You have to go all the way back for those of us who are steeped in science to the mid-Pyocene era. We've got more methane also in the atmosphere right now. So those are the two drivers, carbon and methane, then we've had in recorded history. And again, this goes back to wealthy countries utilizing fossil fuels and making huge amounts of money. And now the impacts are to our brothers and sisters in Africa and parts of South America, in our island nations, and a number of other locations. And it's interesting because, you know, many of us were just in Egypt at COP 27, where you have all these heads of states who come together. And everyone knows what the science has shared with us, whether we're talking about the IPCC or the National Climate Assessment Reports. These are some of the best scientists from across the planet who have told us that we have to break our addiction to fossil fuels, that we have to begin to mitigate.

So in those places, you know, where you would assume that people would be moving forward with the speed that's necessary to address these issues. One of the positives that came out of that, but I call the half positive, is something called the land loss fund. And what that is is about reparations for those countries, our most vulnerable countries, who have done the least to contribute to what's happening around carbon and methane in our atmosphere in this climate crisis, being able to have the resources that are necessary to deal with these emergencies and these extreme weather events that continue to impact folks. Now, Daniel, the part that is mind-boggling is that we know that we have to lower those emissions that are going into our atmosphere. And folks were still not willing to make substantive sets of actions to make that become a reality. And what that means is that for black and brown countries that they're going to continue to have to deal with these impacts until wealthier nations, ours being one of them, is willing to stand up and do the right thing.

You know, and I wonder if trying to appeal to people's better angels, right, like you have been spending your career, you know, two decades plus trying to appeal. to people's better angels to just do the right thing. And, you know, we're still waiting. And waiting in such a way that there are geologists right now that are saying that the impact that humans have had on the planet has thrust us into a new era, into a new epoch, referred to as the Anthropocene, which has not been decided upon by those that make these decisions.

but the fact that we have had such an impact right now, the fact that we see things in the news about the earth spinning faster because the amount of carbon that is in the air, can you speak to the fact that I don't know if we're going to be able to be able to turn back the hands of time? We were receiving warnings 30 years ago about the potentiality of where we are right now. And yet still, there isn't a sense of,

urgency. Yeah, you know, there's so many different dynamics that are going on. Let me try and unpack some of that real quickly. You know, the 30-year, you know, going back in history, you're exactly right about that. But we even go back further where folks knew that the burning of these fossil fuels was going to cause a greenhouse effect. You can go all the way back to the late 1800s for some of the early scientists who were talking about this. They didn't have all the facts at that time. But we also know that we're about to lose a million species over the next two decades if we don't do the steps that are necessary. Now, I don't want everything to be gloom and doom for folks, because here's the dynamic, is that we actually have the tools and the know-how and many of the

resources that are necessary to address what's happening with the climate crisis. The question becomes if we're willing to prioritize and begin to change some of the ways that we live our lives, the sort of transportation that we use, you know, the way that we grow food, all these different types of things that are incredibly important, but we actually can do it. If we move to this new clean economy, here's the thing, Danielle, that's so interesting, that we can literally move to the new clean economy. We can create millions upon millions of new jobs. We can lift people out of poverty. We can make sure that we're addressing these impacts that are, you know, warming up our oceans and warming up our planet. And we can create, you know, a whole new set of

ways of living that we were in balance with nature. And folks continue to think that they have to lose if we move in this direction. And it's completely not true. Right. Yeah, because I think that the idea that we believe that we have to give something up, right, that living in accordance with nature means that, like, I can't consume as much as I want. It's the idea of giving something up that has us in this cycle of capitalism and greed that has put the only home that we have at great, great risk. And I wonder, do you think, Mustafa, that it is, it is an economic appeal. Do we need to shift the messaging and the narrative to make it an economic appeal? Because every time that homes are devastated, because of a historic hurricane season or a historic fire season, or a historic tornado season,

that is money, right? That is not being replenished. We're looking to FEMA to bail us out, bail communities out, bail states out, and that money is not infinite. So do we need to have a harder line with regard to an economic appeal as opposed to an empathetic one? I think you're right. You know, Gandhi once said that we have everything on this planet we need for every man and every woman's needs, but not every man and every woman's greeds. Oh, come on. So I think about that in the context of the decision-making that we often do. And what I found, and, you know, for your listeners, I'm a tall man of color with locks. So, but when I go into Appalachian, when I go into Kentucky and Tennessee and West Virginia

and Western Pennsylvania and Ohio, I'm having a conversation about these new sets of economic opportunities and areas that have been losing jobs for decades upon decades. And that begins to get traction because folks are now thinking, I can begin to move into this new space that is going to happen. Now, my question to folks is that, you know, folks in California, folks in New York and some of these other locations or folks in China or a number of other countries are going to make these investments and are going to create these business opportunities if we don't. So we have an opportunity now to be leaders in a number of the spaces and make sure that folks have a strong economic footing.

Make sure you can not only just put food on the table and keep the lights on, but actually be able to save some dollars and start to build some wealth. And especially for folks of color who have often been shut out of former other sets of economic opportunities. So when I have that conversation, it resonates with folks. The other conversation that resonates with folks is that people are seeing, you know, many of these public health impacts. that they're dealing with, especially when you begin to give folks the facts. You know, you're not naturally supposed to have diabetes or cancer or heart disease. And for some of those areas, you know, they have these high rates and they're asking the question, well, why is that? You know, so when we help people to understand, you know, you may have been working in a dirty

industry, or you may have not been able to have access to healthy food or a number of these other dynamics that as we make the transition, we can make that happen. Then people begin to think more critically about the role that they want to play in that space. Last question for you is this, we just ended a really long electoral cycle for midterm elections and are getting ready to rev up for the presidential. How do you think that Democrats need to talk about climate change moving into the presidential election? Jobs and health. Jobs and health. Jobs and health. talk about the examples that are happening all across the country that many, unfortunately, many folks don't even know is happening about how folks are transforming their communities. I often talk about moving from surviving to thriving. One of the other ways is from trauma to transformation. Because when you can show folks, individuals who look like them, who come from similar backgrounds about how they have been able to make real moves happen, then, you know, it actually has light bulbs going off. for folks because, you know, they don't want to hear about what's happening in Washington, D.C. from a

theoretical construct. Many times, folks is like, you got to show me how someone, you know, who comes from my background, has been able to make change happen, has been able to start their own business in this space. And then you got something to work with, especially with the resources that have now been put out there through some of these really sets of important acts. But then, Danielle, the other part of it is building upon that and helping folks to understand that we were supposed to have the build back better. Brought, you know, over a trillion dollars into the space of creating all these new sets of opportunities. And, you know, we had the IRA Act, which was important. But we have a brighter future in front of us if we have the right people in office who are not trying to hide

from the sets of challenges, but are really thinking about opportunities to get us to this next level. So I think that that's one of the things they have to do. And we can't also shy. away from the fact that there have been folks who have been placed any sacrifice zones and that we're going to eliminate them. Dr. Mustafa Santiago Ali, I can't thank you enough for the work that you have been doing, that you continue to do now with the National Wildlife Federation. I just appreciate you so much and thank you for making the time to join the new abnormal. Well, it's an honor to hold space with you. Hope you enjoy checking out this episode of the new abnormal. We're back every Tuesday, Friday, and Sunday. If you enjoyed it, please share it with a friend and keep the conversation going.

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