The Daily Show: Ears Edition - A Look at the K-Pop Industry and Its Global Fandom | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: June 11, 2023

K-Pop has had loyal Korean fanbases for decades and has made a global impact over time. The intimate relationships cultivated between K-Pop idols and their fans speak to the power of this method of entertainment. Daily Show segment producer Sabrina Lee and postdoctoral associate at the University at Buffalo, Stephanie Choi, join host Roy Wood Jr. to analyze the K-Pop industry and the positive light it shines on South Korea. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at Zip Recruiter's smart technology. Sip Recruiters' smart technology identifies to the talent for your roles quickly. Immediately after you post your job, zip recruiters powerful matching technology starts showing you qualified people for it, and you can use zip recruiters pre-written invite to apply message to personally reach out to your favorite candidates and encourage them to apply sooner.

Ditch the other hiring sites and let zip recruiter find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address. Zip Recruiter.com. Slash. Zip Recruiter. The smartest way to hire. Do nice guys really finish last. I'm Tim Harford, host of the Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. From New York to Tahiti will examine villains undone by their villainy. Monstrous, self-devaring egos and accounts of the extraordinary power of decency.

Listen on the I-Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. The podcast that goes deeper into topics and segments that originally aired on the Daily Show. This is what you got to think of this podcast as, right? Like if the scenes. The podcast that goes deeper into topics and segments that originally aired on the Daily Show. This is what you got to think of this podcast as, right? Like if the Daily Show is the reality show, we're the reunion show where we all get to come together and talk about never-before-seen action, you know, that of course sets the record straight, dramatic cuts. Today we're talking about Kpop. And this has been a their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. thoesheaqqqqq. their their their their their their their their their their their their show. their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. Wea. Wea.a. It's is.a.a. It's is.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. ta. today. So. So, t. So, we're talking about Kpop and how this isn't an industry that just started booming. This has been a profitable market for decades with bands like BTS and Black Pink and Global fandom that helps South Korea in both the entertainment and economic sectors.

Give it a clip. The next big step towards today's Kpop was in the 1990s when major music studios started putting performers together in boy and girl bands. That's right, Korea was doing that long before Simon Carwell's nips ever started poking through his t-shirts. That's a no for me dog. It's no surprise this new wave of K-pop blew up around the world. It featured complex melodies unlike any other pop music and always had next level dance choreography. To this day those remain the pop music and always had next level dance choreography. To this day, those remain the signature elements of Kpop. That and being Asian. Very important

requirement. This new generation of Kpop stars became so successful, the government started to take notice and soon lost a program to promote Korean music around the globe. They saw Kpop as a way to boost Korea's cultural strength and economy without having to do a squid game. To help us break this down a little bit more in the beautiful, beautiful beyond the scenes mothership I am joined by Daily Show segment producer Sabrina Sabrina. Hi Roy, thanks for having me. That's my NPR voice.

How are you doing today? We're here to discuss Korean pop. Are you ready for a moving discussion about Korean pop music? And they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they just they just they just they just they just they just they just they just they just they just they just they just they just they just th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. the. the. the. the. their their the. the. the. the. thea. thea. thea. moving discussion about Korean pop? I am very ready. And they just start, NPR, they just start trailing off. Now I'm into my ASMR boys. Also joining us is a postdoctoral associate at the University of Buffalo in their Asian studies program.

Stephanie, Choi is here. Stephanie, how are you doing? Good, thanks for having me. Let's get into this. Now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, now, th. Now, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thanks, thanks, thanks, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thanks for having me. Let's get into this. Now you all both grew up in South Korea and I would assume that you are both early K-pop fans. Sabrina, I'll start with you. Speak to me about the impact of K-pop on your life. Like the only thing I can even try and compare it to even an attempt to understand like what that music means for your country is just what hip-hop meant for black culture in the 90s where it just it was me it was us it was blackness it was everything that like oh my god they're in that I'm in a

that you're into that we're into it we're doing dances like what was that like when you were younger growing up in South Korea I think that's a really good comparison because it really was part of my huge identity. And then like that's all I would talk about with my friends. And I actually thought about this yesterday while I was preparing, like at school we would have this desk and I would have like stickers of my group, my idol and then like would put them on my desk and I would put them on like my books, on my pencils. You know, like I was obsessed with them and that's all I would talk about and I was very proud to be part of like that fan club. Now my group was TVXQ in English in Korean they're called Dong Bang Shiki.

They're like the second generation of Kpop Idol when Kpop was going to like Japan and then like other countries like in Asia not Europe or America at this time, but for that I think that's when it kind of started. So I was like very proud to be part of that because I always felt like like oh like this is my group and then like I am raising them. Like I think that's what a lot of like Kpop things feel like like not like motherly feeling but like I am raising this people and then like I want everyone to everyone to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. I'm their. I'm their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their. their their their their their their their their their their to to be to bea. to bea. I. I'm try. I'm try. try. I'm try. I'm try. try. I'm try. I am try. I am try. I am their th. I want everyone to know about my group because they're they're great you know. The thing I always found interesting about Kpop just as an outsider and of course I was not aware of Kpop into well into my late 20s and 30s but as an outsider it was wow these kids are all the same ages all the kids that are right like new edition was always just a

little bit older yeah you know they were the same thinn. The the the the same the same the same their their the same th. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. T. I th. I was th. th. I was th. th. I was th. I was th. th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I I was th. I I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was like. I was like. I was like. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. th. thi. I was th. I was th. I was th. I was th. I know, they were, the same thing when new kids on the block and they were always just three, four years older than me. So it's like, oh, that's what I want to be. That's what you want to be. But it's like, it seemed like it was almost as if witnessing the matriculation of your peers, which made it easier to root for them in a way. What was your introduction into that world? When I was young, I'm the first generation. Everyone loved HOT and I was one of them, you know, like everyone loves HOT so like you join that you are, you know,

naturally introduced to it through your friends. And then, you know, I had this teenager when, you know, you feel like you're special, so, oh, no more Kpop for me, but it was more like Korean rock, you know..... you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, special, so, oh, no more K-pop for me, but it was more like Korean rock, you know. So I spent the whole middle and high school years chasing after this rock group. And then it was actually after I entered my MA program here in the States. By then I was already in my late 20s and American KAPOF fans came up to me, you know, oh I heard that you're from Korea and you know, like have you heard of Big Bang, have you heard of girls generation and I was like, that's for teenagers, right?

But then I realized that, oh, wow, like, these adult fans are really, you know, into Kpop. So I got into Kpop pretty late. And while I was doing my PhD, you know, like, in fandom studies, they suggest you to become a fan by yourself. And I was like, how can I become a fan? You know, you have to, it's not like you can be a fan through by, by trying, you know, to be a fan.

So I was kind of trying, you know, I was following, you know, girls generation and then some other groups and then you know it came in Korea in Korean it's called the talk tongue is a combination word of of fan activity you know fanning and car accident so it comes like a car accident all of a sudden you know you just become a fan and I got into Exo so bad and it's been already nine years I guess so it's my heart for Kai and Bechun like everyone has Bechun in their heart it's getting bigger and bigger I'm a huge fan of Exo and also Shiny. I'm mostly a fan of SM entertainment. How has K-pop, in my opinion, in a way that other music genres has not been able to do,

is really plug into their fan base and get their fan base to really be active? Like it just break down these tears of fandom. Because like the only thing, again, that I can compare it to, I remember back in the day, if the day, if their, if their, if their, if I their, if I really really really really really really, if their, if their, if I really really really really really really, if their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thr. t t t t ttttttttttttttttttttttttttt tt t t t t t t t t t t t down these tears of fandom because like the only thing again that I can compare it to I remember back in the day if I really like boys to men I could write a letter to Jive records and they would send back a poster and go yay Roy enjoyed the boys to be in poster. Yeah, you're a fan. All I need to be a fan was a poster from a magazine. I'd get the source or or write on. That's a deep cut that the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the only the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th boy boy th. th. th. th. th. th. tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the to to to the to to the boy the boy the boy the boy. tho. tho. tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the the th. th. the th. th. the th. th. th. the. the. to. to. their to to to to to to to to the. to to to to the. to the. tho. tho. th. I'd get the source or or write on. That's a deep cut that only specific black people who were 40 are going to get. But you would get a poster and that was it. You were a fan. That was it. It wasn't this whole fucking airline frequent flyer gold, silver medallion tears. Break that down for us real quick, Stephanie. And let me as well, Sabrina, like, that make you want to be more of a fan. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the. the. But, thi. But, the. But, the. But, the. But, the, the, the, the, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, the, the, the, the. But, the. the. But, the. the. thea. thea. But, thea. thea. thea. thea. But, thea. But, thea. But, the. But, the. well, Sabrina, like, how did that make you want to be more of a fan?

Like, is it bragging right to whatever? Just break that down for us first, Stephanie. It's really connected to the participatory culture of current music scene. But if we look at the current scene, I would say, the relationship is really, the relationship between Kpop idols and fans are really centered around the transaction of intimacy. So you basically maintain,

both parties are trying really hard to maintain this exclusive relationship between the two. So there are many different marketing strategies there. One is to understand each other through persona. So you understand idols as, you know, the group persona. So for BTS, it would be, you know, you understand them as BTS members. The BTS members, on the other hand, would understand fans, not as individuals who are to little strangers to them, but through the fan persona, the fandom persona. So they, you know,

once they meet these individuals, they would understand them as BTS armies, exclusive, intimate relationships. Right. So when you became a fan, like, and you sign up, per se, does that create a sense of bragging rights to your friends and your classmates? Yes. Also, then you also feel like you're part of this huge group, you know, other than your family or like your school, you know what I mean? It's like joining like a different friend group that's so big that's like, obviously, that's like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, like, other than your family or like your school, you know what I mean?

It's like joining like a different friend group that's so big that's like obviously it's on the internet. But you know like you just talked about Boys Two Men. Did you guys have like a name for the fans who love Boys Two Men's? But that's the thing. I think that's very unique for Kpop. Like, thi. Like, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's that's that's that's that's that's very. that's very. that's very. that's very. that's very that's very. that's very. that's like, like, like, like, like, like, like a that's like a that's like a that's like a that's like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, like, like, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their for Taylor Swift, but like a lot of these, I mean not a lot, almost every K-pop and their fan club, fandom, I think that's what they call it these days. Back in our days, Stephanie and my days, we call it fan club, but I think now it's so global and international they call it fandom. But anyway, like all of this like it has its own identity. You know, it's not even only the name They also have like each group has their own color. So my group the TBXQ the tbx cue our balloon colors was pearl red

So everyone all the fans if you go to concerts or if you go to this like music programs in Korea like in the broadcast like stations you would wear per red and you or you would hold like the balloons that's per red, you know what??????????? th, th, th, the th, the th, the th, their their th, their their their th. their their their their their their th. their th. th. th. th. th. their their their th. th. th. their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their th. thr-I. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. their their their their their their the balloons that's per red. You know what I mean? So it's everyone has a very strong identity. I think that's very... Yeah, that's definitely not American. Right and then you talked about the tears when I joined the TBXQ fan club I would join it and it's like earning miles for airlines so I would have to take this quiz and it will the quiz questions were like so absurd it would be like what would be this member's like childhood pets name and if I don't get it right I won't I will not be able to go to the next tier of this fan club like this a fan page how devastating is that so devastating so I would be like while I need to study you know for my school stuff I'll be studying

my idol group and like their childhood and like Googling and all this stuff and I will be getting all these quizzes right and I will be getting all these thiys right and I will make it to the next tier so you become like almost addicted to it you know what I mean? Because like you get it right and the perks to that then you would be able to see these exclusive photos that you won't you weren't able to to see when you the the the the the the the t. their their t. their their their try. their their their their the tear below. So it's not even pay walled. It's just proved to me your loyalty and to reward system. True loyalty and true love. Like, how obsessed are you can you prove it? You know, like, and I was truly obsessed with that. That's beautiful.

That's low key. Some pre-social media level marketing. And in terms of rewarding people. And not the the the the the th, in you a little bit. I actually get a little more. Because back then like for first generation Kpop and second generation Kpop we didn't have social media so like these members of Kpop groups weren't able to go on Twitter and talk to directly to the fans or like go on Instagram live and talk to the fans directly so I think that was like our way to to the to the the the to the the to the the to to the the to the the the the to the to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to go go go. I to to to to to to to to go. I I I'm to go. I to go. I I'm to go. I'm to go. I'm to go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go. to to to to to to the to to the the the the the to. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm to. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm to. I'm. I'm. I'm to. I'm to to to to the fans directly. So I think that was like our way, my way to like I'm not having a real conversation but I feel like I am because I'm learning so much about that I'm proving my like devouted love for them. Yeah. You know so

that's why I think it kept me going. At the same time, you know when you take all those quizzes and get into that community. It's an extremely closed community. So you have this very exclusive communication with your idol. You know, you don't have to deal with haters or reporters who might be, you know, hiding somewhere and lurking. They're, you know, looking for some scandals or rumors or some conflicts between fans or between idols and fans. But at the same time, it also gave more privileged to Korean fans because, you know, these quizzes were changing every week or twice a week, so, like, you have to keep up with it.

And international fans... You really do. Had to translate it, and by the time they up with it and international fans to do. Had to translate it and by the time they translated the set of quizzes were already you know changed to a new one. Nowadays I think a lot of them have changed to just you know through payment you earn membership. Wow, is that right? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Stephanie, the depth of which you can speak to this goes really, th, th, th, th,. Most of the time, yeah. Now, Stephanie, the depth to which you can speak to this goes really, really far because

you wrote a dissertation on K-pop fandom and the intricacies of it. What made you go, this is interesting. Like, was it, was it the marketing aspect of it? Was it the human connection and the familial aspect of it? What made you go, oh, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's, was it the human connection and the familial aspect of it? What made you go, oh, that's interesting, let me keep it, because, you know, journalists and professors and educators, you find a thread and you just keep pulling at it and pulling it and pulling it. What was it about K-pop fandom?

the yes, I need to know more about this phenomena? The first thing that I found interesting was how many protests there were on within the KAPO fandom. And it was, you know, every time some idol gets married or, you know, do something, you know, wrong or prime-related, these fans would protest against their own favorite idol. And the mass media would describe them as crazy fan girls but at the same time what was fascinating was that the company and idols were readily accepting their request. So I found it interesting how you know like from their request. So I found it interesting how, you know, like from the outside, they look delusional, disorganized, hysterical, like, these are the crazy bandgirls.

But at the same time, the way the company and idols reacted was more like, you know, there's some sort of rules and norms that the outsiders wouldn't know. So I started from there and then found out that these female fans are actually, they have a long history of organizing their own fandom. They are very active at political and cultural and social issues. They are very well organized. They know how to make their voice and they know how to negotiate. So yeah, that was the starting point.

The dissertation is titled, Gender, Labor, and the commodification of intimacy in K-pop. How much do the artists and the record labels, essentially the labels who control the artists and the artists, and that's global. I'm not, that's not a criticism of Kpop. The labels control the artists and music and all of music. How much does the influence of the fans, how much of it is constructive criticism versus non man, y'all whalen. If that's who he wants to date, that's who he can date.

You're not going to tell the K-pop group member who he should and shouldn't be dating. Or does that go into, like if we really want to get into the weeds here, does the label pull this person aside and go, hey, uh, you kind, you to date that person because it's going to mess up the ticket sales for the next year. Could you keep that relationship on the low? Or if you're going to be with her, tell her to dress different because it's scaring the fans. It's not about dating per se. I would like to make that clear. It's not about the dating itself. It's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's the the the the the the the the the the the thi, it's the the thi, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, could, could, it's their, could their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, it's their, their, thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to keep to to to to to to to their, to get back of what they have invested in. So a lot of fans these days perform as promoters of their own idols. The idol market is so saturated, so competitive. You want to promote your idols out there so that you can also, you know, make your idol famous and popular and eventually get more profit and

that would lead to a better production for their next album. And then you, you know, in return, you get better quality of performing production next time. So that's the, that's the K-pop system. So the difference between idols and non-iddle musicians is that idols basically perform fan service. So you not only perform music and dance but you also provide some sort of fantasy to your fans assuming that you're in this thus and dance, but you also provide some sort of fantasy to your fans, assuming that you're in this, you know, intimate relationship with your fans.

If I can make an American comparison, it would be Justin, Timberlake and Brittany Spears, when they were dating, it was like the beautiful unification of two fan bases. Oh, it's the greatest thing ever. And then when they broke up, they were like, oh no! And Timberlake took a hit for a second because he broke up with Brittany. How could you do that to Brittany? I'm not a fan of your music anymore. So I know it's not a one-to-one in terms of American, American music to Kpop, but just the idea of how much influence do the fans have on the evolution of an artist's career in Kpop.

The either fan relationship in Kpop is really centered around this idea of, you know, in terms of male idols and female fans, for instance, it would be, you know, the male idols would be the boyfriend, female fans would be the girlfriend. And if you look at the all the video promotions and song productions, you'll see that it's quite promoted based on that logic. So historically, if you look at the whole generation starting from the 1990s, it really prioritized

idols chastity in public. So nowadays, you know, there's social media, you know, fans already know who's dating who. You know, there's no secret. They just close their eyes. Compare the fan bases. Because it sounded like y'all are like way bigger on being connected with the artist than Americans have ever been. There is no great musician that has had a fan base that I feel like is just wild than Michael Jackson. And I can't think of a name of any might, like nobody was called the Jackson's, the Jackson's, the glitter gloves. Like, they have their own never the never the never the never the never the never the never the never the never called the Jackson's, the Jacksoners, the glitter gloves.

Like, they had their own color. Yeah, the Neverlanders, like nothing. There was no colors. You can start to Michael Jackson concert and faint. Actually, there was Beatle Mania. Yes. But since then, it's not a regular occurrence. Like, because I wonder if Beetlemania was more of the state of Everyone being crazy about the Beatles or did it instantly identify with it? Well, no Yeah, Beetlemania is probably the closest that we've had to anything in a long-ass time, you know, I would argue, but how would you all compare the fan bases? Sabrina, I'll start with you, like in terms of Korean K-pop fans versus American K-pop fans, are we getting there?

Are we still behind the curve like we are in something? I think Swifties are there. Like, do they, I don't think they have their own color, but like, they're obsessed with her. And like, they like, like, youthis clock said it's five o'clock, so like the next album's coming out on like May 5th, you know, like they go crazy like that. But it's that's ticketmaster to talk into Congress.

But I know, but like that's exactly what I think these K-pop fans do as well. So I think Taylor Swift very specifically to her, I think the coniculture exists here. And I can't speak to the American fans who love K-pop because I'm not American and I love K-pop because it was the only pop I knew when I was in Korea. But like you said, it's so, the personal identity of this each fan club is so strong. And there's also like competition between other fan clubs, like,

oh, I'm gonna make my idol sell this much album. Like for the new, you the new, you the new, the new, the new, their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, I'm their, their, their, thi, I's, I's, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I, I's, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I's, I'm, I's, I'm, I'm, I'm, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, tho., thooo., t t t t t together, together, together, tho., tho., thethis much album. Like, for, you know, for the new release, I'm going to buy 10. And then my friend would be like, well, I'm going to buy 20 for my idol. You know, it's like a competition between them, too. And since it's so personal like that, and then like I told you, like, I have to take all think that's where this intimacy or I think it's intimacy that I have a real relationship with these idols, which I don't, but that's what I think I do because I spend so much time to it. You know, I think it's very well known that Korean like idols can't date each other. You know, I think that's where a lot of these things come from. You know, but like these label companies, they do have a dating ban,

universal dating ban, like, and then like, I don't know if it happens these days, but back in my days, the label companies would like, take your phones away, so then you won't be able to like text who, whoever. You know what I mean? It was very strict. I don't know if it's still like that, but it used to be like that just so thatthat they could like protect that persona that Stephanie talked about like you're this imaginary boyfriend or imaginary girlfriend that like these middle school girl things that you are so you need to like protect that image. I think that's where it like you know it all comes from. After the break we're gonna talk a little bit about how these

Kpop stars are made, the actual recruitment of talent, the development of the talent, how they get to become Korean pop stars and idols. And we'll see if it's too late for a 44-year-old black man to go register for one of those K-pop academies, and see if I got the moves. It's beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at Zip Recruiter's smart technology identifies top talent for your roles quickly. Immediately after you post your job, Zip Recruiters' powerful matching technology starts showing you qualified people for it, and you can use Zip Recruiter's pre-written invite to apply message to personally reach out to your favorite candidates and encourage them to apply sooner. Ditch the other hiring sites and let Zip Recruiter find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the

first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address, Zip Recruiter.com slash zip. Zip Recruiter, the smartest way to hire. It's been said that Nye nice skies finish last. But is that really true? I'm Tim Harford, host of The Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a jerk. We'll examine stories of villains undone by their villainy and monstrous self-devaring egos, and we'll delve into the extraordinary power of decency.

We'll face mutiny on the vast Pacific Ocean, blaze a trail with a pioneering skyscraper, and dare to confront a formidable empire. The art of fairness on cautionary tales. Listen on the IHart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Beyond the scenes, we are talking about the world of K-pop here. What I would love to do, define K-pop as a genre, because me, an American man from Birmingham Alabama didn't meet my first Korean till the eighth grade, which is a, that's a true statement, by the way.

I fell in love with a group called Epic High. So my introduction to K-pop was FIFA video games back in the day. My introduction to just international music as a whole was video games. The music they would play in the menu when you're choosing your team and making modifications to your squad that's how I learned about most music that they do not play on traditional terrestrial radio in American so epic high at this song called fly fly high and it was so optimistic and beautiful and aspirational I didn't know what they still don't know what they was talking about in the verses but when they got to the hook it was so beautiful you can fly higher higher than the the the the the the the the the the the the th the th. the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. their their their their their their their their their their their their music. their music. their. their. their. their. their. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. I I th. the. theea. thea. the the the, but when they got to the hook, it was so beautiful you can fly higher, higher than the birds in the sky.

Oh! And then I watched the video, the video for this song is a robbery and a man's carjacking and eventually the man is killed by a police sniper at the end of the video. It is the darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest darkest the d the d the d the d the d th by a police sniper at the end of the video. It is the darkest dichotomy of optimism and hopelessness. And it was beautiful. That's what made it so beautiful. And then I go to talk to one of my friends like, like years later, hey pop, I go, yeah, I like epicai.

That's not Kapap. Yeah. That's not-hop. But it's Korean. It is Korean. And I've never felt more like an accidental racism in a moment. So let's just straight up define K-pop as a genre as it differs from every other type of music that comes out of Korea so I don't sound stupid. I think it's, Epicai's hip-hop artist. So like if you tell some like Epicai fans, I do believe they have their own names too. Okay, well, I'm gonna join that group. I know I'm a little late to the party.

But then if you tell their fans that they're Kpop, they would be offended. Because they're above Kpop, like they're real artist. Now I think that's that's their their their tha's comes comes comes, tha, tha, tha, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, their their thi, their they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their the., theats.o.o, theatsen.oomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomorrow.a, thoooomoomoomorrow. thoomoomorrow. a trainee contract, which I don't think it exists in America. Like for example, like in America, I think you just upload a video on YouTube, you singing and then somebody sees you and they sign you. And then you become an artist, more or less. In Korea, you have to go to like this training school and they made you sign a trainee contract where they you have to follow whatever they tell you to do whether that's taking Chinese class whatever like English class philosophy class dance class dance music class or like going on a diet and I'm gonna check your weight every week all that maybe some of the dark so bootcap exactly so like a lot of idols go through that thoo the thiiiii thooo that I'm th. the the so the so like the so like the so like thi the so like the so like thi the so like thi the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the so the the the the thi the thi thi thi thi that that that that that that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi ti tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-I tha-s. t big label companies, they also have like a concept of like, oh, the next idol group that I'm going to make, it's going to be five cute girls wearing school uniforms

talking about their first love, like, innocence. So like, even if that's not who you are, if you signed this training contract and you became part of this group, like, you're going to be that, like that's your image going forward. Like, are you following me one? Yeah, I understand. But like, Epicai was not that. You know, like they were... It's a creative autonomy from the jump.

Exactly. So I think, I think that's the difference. Talk a little bit, if you can't, the of, because you're going into these academies, you've got to be going, like, I would imagine somewhere between 10 to 12 years old to come out 13 to 14, polish so we can get a good 10-year runway out of you, you know, as an artist. How much, you know, in America, we talk about the idea of child stars and not knowing how that corrupts the psyche of a child on the backside of it when they're done with stardom and they're 28 and trying to figure out what the hell they want to do in there. They're finally not famous for the first time in their life. How much of a kid's childhood are they sacrificing to these camps? How much of your youth are you trading in

exchange for this attempt at being a huge global mega star? When they're too young, when they're pre-team, the companies wouldn't sign idle training contracts because they're too young, they might change their dreams, you don't know. They only sign a trainee contracts right before they make their debut. So right before, you know, they've, they've, they've, they, they, they, they, they, they, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, a huge, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, e contracts right before they make their debut. So right before, you know, they, when they already invest in all the album production and, you know, they already have the debut, the so-called debut team. But until then, usually these trainees spend as short as six months and as long as eight years, you know, if you make your debut in a pretty late Asia 20 or 22. You know, in terms of childhood, I actually get lots of questions from mass media,

especially from Western mass media, you know, how abusive the K-POP system is. Do they even have childhood? And I, you know, tell them back, you know, is this exceptional in K-POP though, you know, in all fields across performing arts and sports? Like, what kind of system allows you to sleep well, it will, you know, do all the things that you want to do and still be the best. So I'm not saying that, you know, the environment. There's a trade-off regardless of genre. I'm not saying that the environment is not abusive, but I would say that, you know, it's the

problem of the system. And also ever talk about, and also the perspectives that Western mass media brings into Kpop. Do we ever talk about diet plans of the horrible diet plans of ballerinas? Do we talk about, you know, marathon or other Olympic athletes, daily of, you know, practicing or or pianist, you know, practicing for like six, seven hours a day, like isn't bad abusive? How can we never talk about that, you know? Well, because that's American. We don't talk about American stuff. We got to criticize it. Because you're already very used to it. So, you know, that's American. We don't talk about American stuff. We got to criticize it.

Because you're already very used to it. So, you know, tada. All of a sudden, you know, you find this new thing called K-pop. It's a new performing arts. And you know, like these kids are so abusive. They're going to this boot camp, you know, the adults, but it's not a yes or no question, but it would be more about then, you know, how do adults within this industry, what kind of efforts do they put in to protect these trainees at best? And I would say for the company,

they arrange all the, you know, once they move to the dorm, which is often close to the company building, they would rearrange all the school, new schools, and then also, you know, sometimes if it's needed, then the trainees would, you know, the companies would provide lessons for the trainee schoolwork. And then they're also allowed, not allowed to, you know, practice during the night time, but then there are always legendary stories of, you know, successful idols, sneaking into the company building, you know, at night,

and then like wait until the guard leaves and then, you know, practice all day long. All night long. Another thing I want to bring up is why is this narrative of the so-called the dark side of Kpop? You know, if you Google the dark side of Kpop, compared to the dark side of America pop, You'll find nothing from by Googling the dark side of America Pop, but you'll find tons of English articles that is entitled the dark side of K-pop, talking about the abusive environment of K-pop. And I would rather want to ask, you know, then how come this abuse narrative is so popular?

And how come this abusing system is so transparent in K-pop? Because, you know, this is not new in any child labor industry. Correct. Also in American pop industry. You know, we've seen free Brittany, Migamouse Club. But I think there in lies the difference in the coverage of the two abusive systems is that within the Korean system, I would argue that there is an entity.

There is a governing body. There are three labels. There is an actual building where you can go and go. Rah, ra, for every failed childhood actor in America, for every musician that burned out from a rigorous tour schedule at 12, 13 years old, I did morning radio, hip-hop radio for almost 14 years, saw them all come through all the 13 and 14 year old rappers and saw them all burnt out at 7 o'clock and no kid should be up this early to do media on a regular basis. But because in America there is no

academy for rap. There's no place for a parent to go and drop off their child for a couple of months to live in a dorm to learn how to rap. You just wrap around the local club, a label guy sees you. So the system is more, it's more jello. So it's hard to really concretely identify who's wrong and who's the person to finger wag at. And I think that's why the coverage is, there's such a disparity in the coverage. You know, I don't know if you have an opinion on that or not, Sabrina, but I just think that

in America, because there is no formal system system like that. No, totally. Yeah, even influencer culture in this country, which I think is net negative in the greater good of what some of these kids are going through and what their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thoomk, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, threath. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thia, thia, thi, thi, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, thin.a, is, thin.a.a.a.a.augh, isa, isa, isa, isa, isa, isa, isa, isa, isa, isa, isa, is, is, is, you know, what some of these kids are going through and what their fans are consuming, that's not even really regulated by our governments at all. You know, whereas in Korea, I know they're like introducing it into after-school care and they're trying to figure out ways to, hey, let's tiptoe into this in ways that aren't necessarily going to the big bad government building. So, like, I just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just I just I just I just I just I just I just like I just I just like I just, I just like I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm the big the big the big the big the big the big the big, I, I the big, the big, the big, the big, the big, the big, the big, the big, the big, the big, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, think that that's probably why it's not as much of a coverage because if you were to write the same article about the American child labor entertainment industry who would you point the

finger at who is the right who is the person like it's all Kaiser so say everywhere but nowhere type of stuff. Totally. You made a great point I would say it's more of the problem of the system. Yes. And the good and bad thing about that is that it's really hard to change the system. At the same time, it can be expanded into a an issue of legislation and more of the discussion of the entire industry. Well after the break, I want to talk a little bit about my experience with the wonderful group,

ESPA who made a visit to the states and we also want to get into the economics of this. We're bringing it home talking about Kpop. Let me go and Google this epic high fan group so I can pay $12 and get an epic high poster. I'm a 44-year-old man. This is beyond the series. Wait, I need to Google that too. My best friend will kill me if I don't remember their names. I got to check if Kai sent me bubble messages. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at Zip Recruiter's smart technology identifies top talent for your roles quickly.

Immediately after you post your job, zip recruiters powerful matching technology starts showing you qualified people for it, and you can use zip recruiters pre-written invite to apply message to personally reach out to your favorite candidates and encourage them to apply sooner. Ditch the other hiring sites and let zip recruiter find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. message the h stack the h stack the h stack the h stack the h stack the h stack the h stack the h stack the h stack the h stack the h stack thack stack. thack stack. the hick-up. thick-up. th. thick-up. to to to to to to to to to thick. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the apply sooner. Ditch the other hiring sites and let Zip Recruiter find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on Zip Recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at this exclusive web address. Zip Recruiter. the smartest way to hire. It's been said that Nye Skies finished last. But is that really true? I'm Tim Harford, host of The Cautionary Tales podcast,

and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a jerk. We'll examine stories of villains undone by their villainy and monstrous self-devaring egos and delve into the extraordinary power of decency. We'll face mutiny on the vast Pacific Ocean, blaze a trail with a pioneering skyscraper and dare to confront a formidable empire. The art of fairness on cautionary tales. Listen on the IHart radiopop Stephanie, Sabrina, thank you

for educating me and also allowing me to embarrass myself by saying that I thought a Korean hip-hop group. No, but I was impressed you know Epicai. Yes, that is the only song I know. I have not had an opportunity to Google other things. Oh, I googled it. It was high school. That's the name of their f f f f f f f f f f f f f f f. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. I thi. I's, thi. I's, thi. I'm thi. I's thi. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I th. I th. I th. I I I I I th. I th. I I th. I th. I th. th. th. the thi. thi. the the the the thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. was high school. High school. Yes, that's the name of their fans. All right, well then I'll be a high schooler. I'll take that. Okay. I also only knew of BTS because of Saturday Night Live and the second song they did on S&L boy with love

I was like, oh no, no, that's a jam. And then I started playing it on Beat Saber on my VR headset and now I'm in love with that group. I had an opportunity to do a field piece with the group Espa who I'll be honest and saying, Stephanie, I did not necessarily know a lot about before the people, when I was told I was doing the piece, you know, you go do your research so you can learn the the And the more I listened to their music, the more I felt right and not having known, 40 year old black guy, not their genre. Pretty sure that was at their target demo when they got in the studio to play a try. But we're out on this double-decker bus.

We're shooting footage and stuff, right? And I've been out with American celebrities, right? And this is also a compliment to the fan, to K-pop fandom, right? American fans, I believe, tend to want a little more than just a photo. They want a moment, they want to say, how you doing, how'd the kid, where you're gonna be in New York? Man, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the double, that's their their how you do hide the kid what you fit how long you gonna be in new york man that's a double-decker but do you like double-decker but all right can I get a picture where is what I saw with the esper was fans come up they do that little peace sign as we do

the peace sign back and wherever they were they were on top of a bus taking selfies with strangers on the sidewalk and the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to the the to to to to to to to to to to to to tooesp I'm tooesp I'm to to tooes I was to to to to to to to to to to to the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the camera up to get the selfie and it was almost understood like to your point about I don't want to bother you at dinner so I'm just gonna sneak a photo where it was understood this is not an opportunity for us to have a conversation but I'm still going to give you this moment and the fans fans understood that it needs to be briefed and it was just like every block four five to to to to to to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the the the to be the the the the the to be to be to be the to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the the the to be to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thaugh and I I I was.e.e. I was the.e. I was. I'm thean. thean. thean. thean. thi. thi. the the the the the the to be brief. And it was just like every block four or five photos between set-ups and the fans were just so appreciative and waving and just shooting B-roll footage. Like I'm just amazed at that level of just connectedness in how brief it was, how brief and how profound it was. Do you learn that at the at the at the Korean

K-pop school Academy of music and fandom Stephanie or is that just a skill set that's developed over time? I think fans have been developing how to interact with their idols and of course there are you know the crazy ones fans call them sas. Sassang comes from the term their idols. And of course, there are, you know, the crazy ones. Fans call them Sasseng. Sasseng comes from the term Sasheng Hseng Hwai, which means privacy. So someone who invades Idol's privacy, you know, the stockers. But fans always distance themselves from Sa Tseng

and, you know, the real fans, would learn how to respect Idol's schedules and privacy and that's how you know and also like these days everything is filmed and will be on social media and that really represents the reputation of the fan club so fan clubs are also very much aware of how to maintain their own reputation and gain respect on social media. So I think it's, it comes from respecting the idol and also from respecting yourself. Sabrina, how much has K-pop's global economic impact

benefited the country of South Korea? Wow. I mean, I was thinking about this morning. When I moved to the states, and you were to tell me, like, some K-pop idol were going to be on S&L, or like, this podcast is going to talk about me like some K-pop idol were gonna be on S&L or like this podcast gonna talk about K-pop or like they're gonna go on morning shows like you know some late night shows

I would have laughed at you like I would have not believed you you know like when I moved here I still listen to a lot of K-dramas and you know all that stuff but like I never actively discussed that with my American friends, because like, why would I, they would never understand? You know, they don't know what it is. But nowadays, like, you know, Stephanie said, like people come up to me if you like, oh, do you know Black Pink? Do you know this? Do you know this?

So like, from a very personal point of view, I think it had a very positive impact of like Americans and a lot of international, you know, global people like, more curious about this small country called Korea, you know, like, but, you know, I feel like a lot of the time when you think of Asia, a lot of people would think of like China or Japan, but now I feel like Korea also became like kind of like a big name that everyone kind of all of a sudden associates with Asia and then like are very curious about it. So I th, th, like, so, so, like, so, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, also became like kind of like a big name that everyone kind of all of sudden associates with Asia and then like are very curious about it. So I think it's very positive impact and also you know like this year Netflix announced that they're going to have like the biggest ever lineup of K-drama. So like that's not K-Drauma so like that's not K-k. It's all part of the culture. It's all part of the culture. It's all all all all all all all all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all all. It's all all all all all all all all all part th. It's all part th. It's all part part part part of th. It's all part part of th. It's all part of th. It's all part part of th. It's all part part part part part of the th. It's all part part part of the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all all. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. th. thi. th. th. thi. th. the the the the the the th. the th culture. It's all part of the culture and all of a sudden Netflix is like doing the biggest line of and investing all this money in K drama show

that's you know going to air globally. So I think it's I personally love it and I think it's great because now I can I don't even need to convince my friends to watch it they just watch it and talk to me about it. I think what what makes it really interesting to me Stephanie is because, you know, as an American, we traditionally think of ourselves as the factory of entertainment for the rest of the world, but now Korea, the curator, they're not the consumers, they're the curators. So I would imagine that has to be good for tourism and shit and making people at least want to maybe go see a K-pop concert concert in Korea instead of going to Atlanta. Definitely, not just for concert tours, but I see lots of international students, college students coming to Korea during the summer or, you know, spend their whole year in Korea,

you'll see lots of young generation coming to Korea and learn more about Korean culture. And then I also see lots of young international YouTubeers who are, you know, talking about Korean culture in Korea while they live in Korea. Now, as you research, you know, your forthcoming book about the global impact of K-pop stardom, Stephanie, what's changed and what stayed the same over the years in this genre of music in terms of fandom?

The market has become broader than before. At the same time, I also see some political changes. I think it's not just a problem of Kpop, but because of the current changes in global politics, I see, it's the problem of K-pop, but because of the current changes in global politics, I see also, you know, more conflicts of ethnic nationalism and xenophobia in international Kpop fandom as well, you know, coming from a Korean fandom, but also from other trans local fandoms as well. How much does social media play a role in that political influence you think in the sense of most musicians don't want to get into politics or political issues across all genres? They just want to make music. But then as

your fans become more, you know, suppressed or dealing with injustices, and I think that globally political movements are more connected because of social media. So if there's something, like if you look at say Stop Asian Hate in the States, which I imagine doesn't have the same level of gravity in Korea because it's just a different environment. But if an Asian artist is coming over here to perform for predominantly Asian audiences, they might go, y'all, man, we need you to say something

about the bullshit. So are you finding, are you all finding that more groups now, or even within the parameters of what still keeps them within, without choosing a side? Because I always feel like there's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their thi is thiiarte is thiaicicicicististististististististist is thiaqiaqiaqiaqiaqiaqiaqiaististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististististista, tha, tha, tha, th...... We's, th. Wea, th. Wea, th. Wea, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th.. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'mauauauauaua, th., without choosing aside, because I always feel like there's the politicians and then there's the issue and there's the issue that's hurting the people. Like do you at least see them, do you see more artists now at least speaking about the issues? I would think so, but I think it depends on certain topics, like for example, like BTS was invited to the White House and talked about Asian hate, I th...... th. th. th. thi thi thi, but thi, but thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi.ea, thea.ea.ea, their their thea, their their their their their their, the White House and talked about Asian hate,

I think a year ago or two year ago. Two years ago, well I thought it was a little suss because they're not Asian Americans. Like you said in Korea, like everyone's Korean, so there's no Asian hate. If there's hate, it's just hate, you know, Korean, crime on Korean. You know? But the White House decided to invite BTS to talk about Asian hate, which I don't think they ever experienced because they don't live in this country, you know. But they were brave enough to talk about it and I think just to see Asian K-pop this group at the White House, I think had like a lot of gravity to a lot of fans out here in America.

So I would say like they do speak up that kind of stuff, but like, I would, Stephanie, correct me if I'm wrong, but I wouldn't think they would like, like how Taylor Swift's very anti-Trump, right? Like I don't think any of the BTS members or any of the KAP-I'dl-Sy anyone would be that political. Yeah, I don't think, yeah, many American artists wouldn't be until their Taylor Swift stadium status anyway. Like, but just in that sense of speaking about an issue that may be a lightning rod for

their fan base. Like, it might be such that they're, but if, if you're an Asian American, does seeing them at the White House try and to stir it up make you then feel then, then, then, then, then, then, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, like, like, thin, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, th seeing them at the White House trying to stir it up, make you then feel like, oh, well, the administration won't listen to me, Joe Blow the Voter, but they might listen to BTS. Which is sad to say. It is very sad to say. But I think, yeah, what do you think, Stephanie? But, they, they's, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the, the, the, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the... the the the the the the the the the the the the the, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, the a. the a. the a. the a. the terms of just issues, not politics, but not politicians, but do you see

more of a conversation around issues from a lot of K-pop artists today versus, you know, if we're talking about what's different from then versus now? I think that Korean entertainment industry in general really gets away from, you know, making political statements. Entertainers should remain as, you know, someone who would, you know, making political statements. Entertainers should remain as, you know, someone who would entertain people without any political bias. So I think it's not just for Kipop Idle's, but for, you know, actors are, I think a bit more, you know, they make a bigger voice when it comes to politics, but when, you know, their, you know, their things, but, but, you know, I the idles definitely, to, as to, as th, as to, as th, as to, as th, as th, as to, as th, as, th, to, th, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their more, you know, they make a bigger voice

when it comes to politics, but when idols definitely not. But I see how they are trying to give positive influence through a more universalized issues, such as, you know, peace, love, and justice, you know, speak yourself, love yourself, so you're not you know leaning toward a specific political goal but rather you know they're giving the seed of activism to the translocal communities. And let's end on a question about change. If we're talking about where K-pop was and where it is now, I'm not going to say his name but I know of a, I know of a white dude personally who moved to Korea to seek out a career in K-pop, probably about seven, eight years ago.

How are non-Asian aspiring K-pop artists? I don't want to say treat it, but how hard is it to merge into that? Like, do y'all have an M&M yet? Like, who is the non-native person of that music genre? Does that analogy? It makes sense? I don't know. Maybe Lisa from Black Pink, she's Thai? So maybe some Americans might thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thian, I to to to to to to to to to to to to thian, I th, I to th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I thi, I thi, I thi, I'm thi, I'm thin, I'm thin, thin, thin, tha, tha, tha, tha, to to to to toa, I don't thin, I don't than, I don that makes sense? I don't know. Maybe Lisa from Black

Pink, she's Thai. So maybe some Americans might think she's Korean because she looks Asian but she's not Korean. I guarantee you a lot of Asian. I'm sure. I'm sure. Let me educate you. She's not Korean. Although she's fluent in Korean and English and like obviously she, like, you know, she's from Thai so she speak Thai as well. is that something that could have even dared to have happened 15 years ago 15 years ago 15 years ago 15 20 let's go 20 like how much is that like first generation I mean clearly it's accepted the group is a hit right so it's not like people hate her because she's tyed but in terms of the evolution of it becoming more multicultural and becoming more Kpop not necessarily being solely thems of the evolution of it becoming more multicultural and becoming more

k-pop not necessarily being solely the property of Koreans anymore or it's not something there are other people in the sandbox now do you see that evolution continuing Stephanie yeah there was also a first black kipop idol Alexandra. Oh yes send me her we're gonna first black K-pop idol, Alexandra, I think. Oh, yeah, send me her, we're gonna celebrate her

doing black history or not. There are little changes in K-pop, but you know, as far as K-pop will sustain, relying on the cultivation of intimate relationship between idols and fans, it will be more of a problem of how much this non-Kurian idol can communicate well with the local fans first, the Korean fans, whom you will meet almost every week or every month during your promotion activities. And a lot of companies offer Korean language lessons, so I don't think it has been a problem, but it will be more about the cultural proximity that you feel to non-Ko-Ko-n-Koan idols. But at the same time I also see how like more and more companies are really focusing, you know, overseas market. You know, they don't just

reside in Korea, but they, you know, same with BTS, they focus more on overseas market and that's how, you know, they stretch out beyond Korea. So, you know, so, you know, like, they, so. So, you know, they, to the the, to. So. So. So, so. So, so. So, to. So, to. So, to. So, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to, their, their, to. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their more on overseas market and that's how you know they stretch out beyond Korea so I see a lot of potentials but there will be definitely more conflicts and negotiations going on. So I get what you're saying Stephanie the idea of other cultures and other races entering into Kpop and their success but then it just still boils down to their ability to connect with the fan base. Yeah, but also with the lack of multicultural experience with Korean society, that will be also, it's still changing, but, you know, it's really still very new to Korean society.

The Korean government launched as multicultural agenda only by 2006. So only by then they started to recognize this, you know, multicultural population in Korea. So it will be late, but I would also expect more voices coming from, you know, international fans and non-Korean residents in Korea. So we'll see. I mean, Korea is always, you know, changing fast, so who knows? Well, we look forward to the book, breaking it all down. I think that's all the time we have for today.

Stephanie, Sabrina, thank you all for going Beyond the Scenes with me. Thank you. Thank you. Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcast, the I-Heart Radio App, or wherever you get your podcast. Wherever. Where ever. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts.

Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. Do nice guys really finish last. I'm Tim Harford, host of the Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. From New York to Tahiti will examine villains undone by their villainy,

monstrous self-devaring egos and accounts of the extraordinary power of decency. Listen on the Iheart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.