The Daily Show: Ears Edition - America’s First Ladies: Their Changing Role and Influence | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: September 24, 2023

America’s First Ladies have historically been expected to champion social causes, be style icons, and serve as the nation’s matriarch. In this episode, host Roy Wood Jr. sits down with CNN Contributor Kate Andersen Brower, and Daily Show Senior Producer Jeff Gussow to discuss how the role of First Lady has evolved, how they have impacted policy, navigated gender expectations, and shaped history.   Original air date: March 1, 2022See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Survivor 47 is here, which means we're bringing you a brand new season of the only official survivor podcast on fire. And this season we are joined by fan favorite and Survivor 46 runner-up, Charlie, Charlie, I'm excited to do this together. Thanks, Jeff. So excited to be here, and I can't wait to bring you inside the mind of a survivor player for season 47. Listen to On Fire the official survivor podcast starting September 18th wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scence. This is the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that aired originally on the

Daily Show with Trevor Noah. That's what this podcast is like. All right, so like, you ever had a chicken pot pie? And I'm not talking about a frozen pot pie. I'm talking about one of them homemade straight out the oven pop pies. One of them pop pies. One of them pop pies made from somebody in a good marriage. Them the best tasin' pop pies. And so you have a pop pie and it's good. But you never know whether or not there's crust on the bottom of the pop pie dish, right? That's what this podcast is. It's surprise. It's crust on the bottom too,

because everybody likes moe crust. And that's what this podcast is. It's the Moe Crust of the Daily Show Universe. I'm Roywood Jr. And in honor of Women's History Month, we're taking a look at the powerful and influential roles that the First Ladies have played throughout history. Let's roll a clip. The First Lady.

It's not a job that's actually in the Constitution, but that's just because in 1787, women hadn't been invented yet. And even though First Lady is not an official role, they've been important figures in the country from the very beginning. Maybe the most fascinating thing about First Ladies is that even though no one votes for them, and they kind of make up the job as they go, just by virtue of being married to the president, they can end up having a lot more power than many elected officials. The first lady is the most powerful woman in the country, because she has the ear, first thing in the morning and last thing at night, of the most powerful man in the country.

Going back to the very first, first lady, Martha Washington, and the second one, Abigail Adams. Both of them were politically involved. They were involved in cabinet decisions. They were involved in campaigning. These women were political partners. Nancy Reagan was pulling a lot of the strings calling many of the shots from President Ronald Reagan's first campaign

for the White House back in 1980 to his Cold War ending in 1987. Hillary Clinton became more involved, obviously, in policymaking than any first lady before her. She had an office in the West Wing. Bill Clinton even ran on the slogan, Buy One, Get One Free. In 1919, Edith Wilson was unofficially running the country after her husband, after her husband Woodrow suffered a stroke. Today, I'm joined by Daily Show producer and very sad Tampa Bay Buccaneers fan because Brady retired.

Jeff Gusso, Jeff, welcome to the show. How you been? I'm good man, how you doing Roy? Okay, look, it's, it's, it's, Brady's been going about a month, man. It's okay, man. You gotta get past it. You know, you know, I'm sure the bucks will suck again next year. We're also joined by CNN contributor and New York Times, best-selling author of the book, First Women, the Grace and Power of America's Modern First Ladies and the Residents. Kate Anderson, Brower, thank you for joining us and going beyond the scenes with us today. How are you?

I'm great. Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited. The elegance. You hear that, Jeff? You hear the wonderful elegance. This this this this this this th this is th th th th th th th th th th th th th. This is th. This is th. This is going th. This is going th. This is going thiii. thia thia thia thioliol- thia- thi. tho-s. thoes thoes the thoes the thoes thoes thoes thoes thoes thoes tho tho tho tho tho tho tho. tho. tho. tho. th. thi. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the-s. the-s. the elegance? This is gonna be a good-ass conversation. So Jeff, before I get to you, ladies first, Kate, help us, for the people who don't know, myself included, help us understand the role of the first lady. You know, it's unpaid, first and formal, we want to talk about some paid inequity. It's an unelected role. There really doesn't seem to be a rulebook on what you

can and can't or should and shouldn't do, but yet everybody has an opinion on what a first lady should or shouldn't be doing. So what are some of the expectations of the role? Well, it's a very archaic old-fashioned title, right? You know, Jackie Kennedy said that she never wanted to be called First Lady. It sounded like a saddle horse. She said it was like a demeaning name. It's very arcane because people don't understand it. And even years of studying it myself, I found it to be completely dependent on the person who has the position. One person wrote to

Betty Ford, who was First Lady in the 70s and said, you're constitutionally required to be perfect. And I think that kind of sums it up. They are supposed to be ideal wives and mothers, the symbol of what it is to be an American woman, juggling everything, and each of them fails in their own way, and I think they feel as though after a little bit of the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi their thi thi their thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi, thi, thi, to be thi, thi, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be their first theirsesend theirsese, theirse, their 1 is their first their first is is is is is is thiiiii. to be thi. to be to be to be thi. to be to be thi, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, te. te. teateateateate. teate. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. them fails in their own way and I think they they feel as though after a little bit of time in the position that they just have to make it their own and do what they want with it because as Rosalind Carter said no matter what you're going to be criticized and you know there's a lot of sexism obviously and in the world still and I think that there is a sense that each woman is th th the the the the the the the thu thu the the thu thu thu thu. thu. thu. the the the the the the the the the their the their the the their their the. their their their their their their their their their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the. the. the. the. the. the. theeeeeeeeeeat thea. thea. thea. thea. theeea. theea. thee. the. their still and I think that there's a sense

that each woman is held up to these very unfair expectations and so they have to make the role their own and there's nothing in the Constitution that describes what they have to do so they can do as little like Melania Trump for instance or as much like Eleanor Roosevelt or Hillary Clinton or Michelle Obama these women that really took the role incredibly seriously. So it just depends on each woman. Yeah, because you know, Michelle Obama, you know, she, it was the school lunch initiative,

you know, healthier nutrition, you know, the Let's Move program, you know, you look at everything that Betty Ford was doing with regards to, you know, just being vocal about women's issues. We don't have to talk about Nancy Reagan and just say, no, we know the history of that. How do some of the expectations of the First Lady play into some of the gender norms and gender roles that I believe a lot of women are trying to break out of, or at least trying to change what the base level expectations are of the first to break out of, or at least trying to change what the base level expectations are of a first set. Because, you know, they're responsible for a lot of the domestic duties in the white, not literally cleaning and cooking,

but organizing the social events, and oh, you gotta decorate the tree, and we have to make sure everything is set for dinner. Like, how much of those expectations are part of the role. I mean one of the funniest things that happened during the Trump administration was when Melania, you know, that was caught talking to a friend on the phone and saying something about how she just didn't want to deal with this stupid Christmas decorations and I think everyone was like a gasped at that because that's what the job is and it just looked bad too. They say I'm more complicit. I'm the same same same same same same same same I'm thagage. thage. thage. thage. thage. thage. thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's thi. thi. That's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's thi. That's th. That's th. That's th. That's th. That's th. That's th. That's th. That's th. That's th. That's th. That's th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thea's thea's thea's thea's theauuui's theauii's theauii's thea's thea's thatea's thicit. I'm the same like him.

I support him. I don't say enough. I don't do enough. No. Where I am? I put the, I'm working like a asthma, I know. I know. Who gives the fuck about Christmas stuff and decoration, but I need to do it, right?

But I mean, look at Michelle Obama. She was making, you know,,000 dollars at the University of Chicago Medical Center in their communications office. She went to Harvard, Princeton. She's incredibly well educated and yet her role was in many ways to just take care of the daughters. And there's nothing wrong with that. The mother-in-chief role that Michelle Obama took up was really powerful. Especially for a black woman. I thought that that was really important for her to make th th th to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make the to make the the to make the the their to make their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, took up was really powerful, especially for, you know, a black woman. I thought that that was really important for her to make this point, that she was going to focus on her daughters, and there was nothing wrong with that. I think that you have to be able to just accept women doing as much or as little as they want. Then you see Hillary, who had an office in the West Wing and she always regretted having that office because she realized that she overstepped, that the American people were not ready

for it. And I think that's unfortunate, right, that we haven't moved beyond that, and I think it's going to take a first gentleman, if that's what we call him, to be okay with a woman doing as much or as little as she as she wants. I mean if Bill Clinton were first gentleman I think that no one would be expecting him to be you know baking cookies. Arranging the Christmas decoration. Yeah. Redesigning the White House lawn. That's why Jeff that's why I was like in a weird way during the last election. I was kind of pulling for Corey Booker just because I wanted the chaos of an unmarried man in the White House like who's gonna do what if like granted he's in a relationship with Rosario Dawson at the time but you know are you still a first lady if your first girlfriend like I

wanted chaos dude what was like the main inspiration for putting this piece together and just talked to us a little bit about the ideation of that at the daily the daily the daily the daily the daily the daily the daily. the daily. the daily. the daily. the daily. the daily. the daily. the daily. the d. the d. the d. the d. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th... the th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. the the the th. the the th. th. the th. the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the this piece together? And just talk to us a little bit about the ideation of that at the Daily Show. Yeah, I mean, you know, it was about November 2020. The election, I think it just happened, and we were sort of like, the election I think it just happened and we were sort of like, like, all the changes that were about to focus on like what is this role, what is this handoff between Malania Trump to Jill Biden, and you know, what is the history, what are the expectations for years of Donald Trump and Malania Trump had been so chaotic and like was what Malani and tru-Trump did normal, what's it not normal, what is expected of Jil Biden. So we wanted to honor these ladies, but we also also want to like the to get the the to get the to get the the to get the to get to get their their to get their to get their to get to get to get their their to get their their to get their their their. I. I their. I their their their. I'm their. their. their. their. their. their their their their their their. their. their their. their. their. their. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I'm. I. toe. I. toeck. toeck. toeck. toeck. trc. trc. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. tr. toeck. toe. toe. their. t. the crux of like, you know, how the job can be good and how the job can be bad, you know, give it, you know, give people a full sense of it, you know, which is difficult

in 10 minutes, but, you know, that was the big idea of what we were trying to get to. It's interesting because, you know, it's a role where, you know, you the-a-try to the-o'-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-to have something that you really give a lot of extra give-a-dam about. And you have to roll out a plan about that to the American people over the next four years and hopefully with no scandals messing it up in the meantime. But I feel like the role has evolved over the years. What are some of the ways that first ladies have kind of made this role their the ways that First Ladies, just in the research that you've seen, Jeff, what are some of the ways that the First Ladies have kind of made this role their own? And I would love to hear from you as well on that, Kate. When we were developing the piece chronologically, when we hit like Eleanor Roosevelt, like that

was a big one that there was so much to unpack. And we felt like that was really like where it changed where it was like more front where you could be visibly like you know pushing for these causes and you know advocating on beliefs. Each one made it their own and so like the connecting line through them all was like they each had their cause like that they would believe in. They were supporting their husband and the presidents, but they were also like advocating for like women's issues and social causes that like would help further you know generations. From the earliest days America's first ladies were referred to as lady presidentress or Republican queen. The term first lady didn't come into use really until Dolly Madison's time. The fourth first

lady pioneered the practice of championing social causes. She helped orphan children and supported women's rights. And it said that at Mrs. Madison's funeral, President Zachary Taylor ulogized her as the country's first lady, the first time that title was ever used. I was just thinking about what you were saying right earlier about if Corey Booker had been elected and I think his mother or his sister or niece or someone would have stepped in to take over the role because there is just no way that they would let that go like somebody needs to fill in we saw Thomas Jefferson's daughter. We need a woman. We need a woman and I still

don't know why but we feel the need to have this position. And like James Buchanan was a bachelor. And his niece, Harriet Lane, you know, took over, this going back in the 19th century. But like the idea that we would elect an unmarried person as president, I think is such an interesting question because we attach so much, you know, meaning to being married and having a family and how that would make th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you thuuuuuu... thi thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm thi. thi. thi. thi. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. th. th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. th. I. th. th. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. toa. toa. toa. toa. toa. toa. toa. toa. toa. toauuuuuuuu. toa. toa. toa. th. tha. tha. tha. meaning to being married and having a family and like how that would make you responsible and I just I feel like we haven't moved far

enough away from those really old-fashioned ideas. You know, the first lady is arguably one of the most important advisors to the president. I don't believe that it was a coincidence that, you know, you know, Reagan ran a big deal on having a war on drugs and then Nancy had just say no. How much of a role or how much influence does the first lady have? In what ways her first ladies impacted policy in this country? I mean, a very recent example is Michelle Obama with her let's move campaign that you mentioned

earlier about, you know, having healthy lunches and ketchup doesn't count as a vegetable and school lunches and all of that. I mean, she was really trying to continue. Make it like a very healthy, you know, environment for kids who sometimes, you know, hot lunch is like their only meal of the day for some kids in this country, which is just, like, terrible. And so she th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, you, you, you, you, you, you, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you th, you thi, you know, you know, you know, you the, you thi, you thi, you thi, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you thi, you thi, you thi, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you thi, you to thi, to to thi, thi, to thi, to thin, to to thin, to to thin, to to to to to to to to to thin, to the. to the. the, lunch is like their only meal of the day for some kids in this country, which is just like terrible. And so she really wanted to make sure they had nutritious food and that dovetailed with the Let's Move campaign, which was about exercise and with her husband's child care

nutrition bill that they were trying to get through Congress. And so she would make calls to senators and members of Congress trying to push their to their their, to their, to their, to their, their, their, to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thiiiole, thiole, thiole, their, thiol-s, thiol-s, thiol. And, thiol. And, thiol, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, thiiiia, thia, thiia, te, te, te, te, te, te, teauuuiauiauiauiaugh, te, te, tea, tea, tea, tea, senators and members of Congress trying to push that bill through. And that's a real example of a first lady getting involved in policy. Hillary Clinton wanted Ruth Bader Ginsburg on the Supreme Court and let her husband know that she was the right pick. So there are actual real ways that they're getting involved. And they call it pillow talk, which I still think is kind of silly, but the idea that at night, this is this this this this this this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is th th th th th th th th thi thi the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last the last thiolusususususususususususususususususususususususususususususus, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the silly, but the idea that at night this is the last person there, the president's, presumably, going to be seeing. So they can influence policy, but like you mentioned Betty Ford, and I think a lot of

people know about what she did to talk about drug and alcohol addiction, but that happened after she was in office. Like that, the Betty Ford Center was years later and so I think they have this tremendous power for the rest of their lives if they choose to use it. So we all know that Nancy Reagan was one of the people that got you know her husband to fire Donald Reagan who was then his chief of staff and then this one doesn't necessarily compare the same because it was a hundred years ago, but we also know that, you know, I think it was it, was it, Woodrow Wilson that had the stroke? And Edith, and Edith was running the country after her husband, like, not

no official capacity, but unofficially, she would, you know, Woodrow would whisper in her this what you need to tell him to do. And then she would go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass pass, their, their, their, their, their, would go, would go, their, their, would their, would would their, would would would would would would would would would would would would, would would would, would would, would would, would would, would would, would, would, would, would whisper, would their, would their, would their, would their, would their, would their, would their, would their, would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would would, would, would, would, would, would, would, would, would, would, would, would, would, would, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, would, would, her, that's what you need to tell him to do. And then she would go password to the vice president. Does that support system make the president stronger? Or is it, like, where's the line of, hey, here's what you should do versus, hey, let me do my job? I mean, that's such a good question. When you bring up Edith and Nancy, Nancy, Edith and Nancy and Nancy, thier, the, the, the, th, powerful is they decided who could see their husbands, right? Like Nancy Reagan decided who would be chief of staff. She decided even when they were putting the cabinet

together, who should be in the cabinet. And then Edith Wilson was keeping people away from her husband when he was sick. So it's the idea of who's controlling the people who can get into the Oval Office or have the president's ear. So I think that that's where the power lies in the position of First Lady is being that person who can control people who have access to their husband. And I think a lot of people would say First Ladies shouldn't have any control, right?

Because they're not elected. I would argue that most first ladies that have kind of been doing the pillow talk has been for the better, the better, the better, the better, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, and tho, and tho, tho, and tho, tho, thi, and thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, tho, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, tho, tho, tho, tho, thinin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, and, thin, thin, thin, and, is, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.a, is, is, is, is not, is not, is not, is, is, is, thi, ththat have kind of been doing the pillow talk has been for the better of the country, not necessarily for the detriment. We don't know if Melania ever slept in the same bed, but Trump after maybe the first year. But in terms of understanding just how influential this role is, why do women have to live in the shadows and be unpaid in that regard? If you have a stroke and I'm the middle man between you and the chiefiiiii the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the chief the'm the middleman between you and the chief of staff when the bombs are getting, this is back in the 1900s, prohibition war, war one was around the corner, shouldn't

I get a little bit of money for being a first lady? It is ridiculous and that's what Dr. Biden is trying to do. I think by having a job, by being paid for that job, she's teaching, of course, and she had taught her entire life. The only time she took a break was during the campaign. And I think that it's important that women be able to continue their jobs. And Laura Bush, it's not a partisan thing either. Laura Bush said the same thing. She said first ladies should be you know given the opportunity to pursue whatever career they had. I mean

you cannot expect Hillary Clinton to just sit idly by and I think I think that being paid for being first lady is different than being paid for continuing your job as a teacher which is outside you know the role. I think that's easier to convince people it's okay. Especially as much work, like, you know, there's still expectations of like stuff doing at the White House, but like, you know, Jill Biden has been traveling all over, you know, visiting, you know, tornado victims and things like that. So like, there's still just a lot of work as well that they are doing and still expected to do as well and like to not get paid for that, but also have an office that like up with the staff that reports to them. Like why is the boss not paid?

That's a good point. Well you're paid a prestige, you're book deal after you leave office. That's there you get, they. Jeff, what didn't make it into the piece? Because that's the thing I'm always curious about you. All right, what argument that y'all have when this piece was 13 minutes and you knew you had to chop it down to 10? Yeah, I mean, you know, every woman that's been a first lady has like, you know, there's documentaries about them, there's books aboutell. And like, it's very difficult to like narrow it down. And like right off the top, Dolly Madison was where we sort of started this piece. And like, you know, one of the stories that was interesting, but we just didn't have the time, but we just didn't have time,

but we just didn't have time for it was like, thinne tiiio' their their their their to to to to to to to to to to to to save, to save, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the, the the, to like explain that story. Eleanor Roosevelt, we spent one entire role on, and there was like two stories that like I thought were really interesting, but we just didn't have room for. One was that like, you know, she was very a big advocate for the anti-linching legislation and the KKK put it like a bounty on her. And then she also would hold women-only press conferences. A lot of newspapers that only had men reporters would have to either hire women reporters or you know get women to report on these stories and so like it saved women's jobs and like was a real force for like having women enter into journalism. And so you know you're condensing all this history

into like you know it's a 13-minute piece and like the sound bites that we use are like a minute each roughly so you know trying to tell Eleanor Roosevelt's entire story in a minute is impossible. After the break, I want to get into, now that we know the role and the expectations of the first lady, the criticism and the haters who love to talk that shit, Kate, I want you to break down all the shit talking and hating and unrealistic expectations that first ladies go through. It's women's history month. We are going beyond the scenes on the history of the first lady and also first dude. We'll talk about him a little later. The first gentleman, I think it should be dued, first dude. No y'all disagree. Okay, that's fine.

We'll go beyond the scenes when we come back. Hey, everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, the weekly show. It's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting, you'll be saying to yourself, TGID. Thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about. All the thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing things things things things things things things things things th things th things th things th things things things things things things things thi that that that that that that that thi that that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's to be, to be, to be, to be, to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. tooomomomome. tooome. thoome. thoomorrow. thoomorrow. thooes. thooooooes. thea. thooooooooooooeseses. to it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully

obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election. Economics. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth but in importance it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go but how many of them come out on Thursday I mean talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart wherever you get your podcast. Kate, we were talking in the previous break about the expectations and whether or not some women want to deal with the stress of that. And Melania being, you know, caught off the record, what she thought was off the record, complaining about some of the stuff.

Which also, I didn't, Jeff, did you all come across this in your research? That if Melania didn't want to be first first first first first first first first first first first first first first first first first first the first, to be first, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to make. Cateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. Kate. to. to. to. to. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the the the the the the the the of the stuff, which also I didn't, Jeff, did you all come across this in your research? That if Melania didn't want to be First Lady, Ivanka was going to step in, like a first-daughter lady? I do remember that story. Like Malani was going to stay in New York, if I remember correctly? And that lasted for what, a few months before they decided to move down there because like security was an issue and like They just decided to To make it easier. Maybe I must remember that but I think that was but yeah, it was yeah, that is true

And Michelle Obama and some of the other first ladies were like jealous of Melania for doing that because Malaniah like the expectation was you move to the White House to the White House when your husband moves into the residence and she just flipped the script and didn't do it. And I think that that these other women were like, what? I could have done the same thing like none of them really wanted to move in right away. So in a way that was one of the more interesting things and I think it kind of great things what you know she did a lot of terrible things, I think, as first lady, but one of the good things was not doing what we all expected her to do all the time. And that brings me to the scrutiny, because let's be real, none of these women asked for this role. They just married a dude. And then one day the dude was like, hey, I want to be in charge of everything. I'm going to need you to bake cookies and pet the dog and take nice photos. And if you don't move a certain way within that, within that construct, you get scrutiny from the press, social media now.

24-hour news cycle hasn't helped at all. How do the first ladies, like, how do they handle that constant scrutiny? And, number one, how you keep you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you to keep you keep you keep you keep you keep you keep you keep you keep you keep you keep you keep you keep the the to keep to keep to keep to keep to keep the to to to to the cookies to the cookies the cookies to to to to to to to to bake cookies cookies cookies cookies cookies to bake cookies cookies to bake cookies cookies cookies to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the cookies the cookies the cookies the cookies the cookies the cookies the cookies the cookies the cookies the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to the cookies, thick cookies, thick k.cook to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the thick. How do the first ladies, like, how do they, how do they handle that constant scrutiny? And number one, how you keep them going crazy, Kate? How do you keep him going crazy? Especially if you, Malani, you know, Malani, I didn't think he was going to win. I don't think she was going to be president. That is nice, Don't know. Where's money? How do the first? How, how, how, how, how, the first, the first, the first, the first, the first, the first, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, how, how, how, the, the, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how. How, how. How, how. How, how. How, how. How, how. How, how. How, how. How, how. the, how. the, how. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the, the, the, the, the. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. the, the. the. the. the. the, how the, ladies, how do they deal with that scrutiny, you know, and try and

keep their head on straight? You look at what happened to Betty Ford in the White House. She got addicted to painkillers and alcohol. I mean, I think a lot of them deal with it in a really unhealthy ways. I think it's really hard for them to manage it. Some of them reach out to each other, like Michelle Obama and Laura Bush talked occasionally. One of the coolest parts of this First Ladies documentary on CNN is when they show David Axelrod,

Obama's advisor with Michelle Obama. And it's during the campaign. And she's like, I don't understand in 2008 why people think that I'm, you know, angry and not like approachable. And he just played this video of her speech with the sound off. And he's like, look at your facial expressions, look how you come across, and she was like, she was just stunned because that's not how she saw herself, that's not how people who knew her saw her. I called her in to show her what people were seeing. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the the the th, th, the th, their, th, th, th, their, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was th, was th, was th, was th, was thi, was thi, was thi, was thi, was thi, was thi, was thi, was thi, was thi, thi. was thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, was thi, was saw herself, that's not how people who knew her saw her. I called her in to show her what people were seeing and I turned the sound down and just

let her see herself. She lived in a country and a world based on a sphere. She got it immediately. She was getting all of this, you know, remember when she said the phrase and I'm going to butcher it, but it's about, you know, I'm proud of my country for the first time. And it wasn't quite that harshly said, but that was seized upon by the right and made into this huge, huge issue. Hope is making a comeback. Hope is making a comeback.

It is making a comeback and let me tell you something, for the first time in my adult lifetime, I'm really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change. As the first black first lady, she just had tremendous pressure. And I think she leaned on her good friends, like Valerie Jarrett in the White House. She, you know, kept a really tight group of women around her people she had known forever from Chicago.

Her mom lived with them, which helped a lot. Yes, that probably helped immensely. Yeah. For the Michelle Obama criticism, you know, one of the pieces in the discovery was like we remembered that like she was criticized for wearing shorts, you know, just like regular shorts. There's photos were getting off a plane. I think they were going to Hawaii maybe for like one other winter vacations and like there was like just outrage on conservative media about like is it acceptable for Michelle to be wearing shorts. And it's that like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the's that. So then to that point, Jeff, in your research,

and I'm sure this is probably a lot more recent, let's just say from Clinton onward, did you see a double standard? Like, just in watching the footage, as you're just going through hours and hours of footage, is there a double standard in how liberal versus conservative media? Like, let's just go with Fox News. If Michelle Obama can't wear shorts, Barack can't wear a tan suit, Balaia had on a jacket that on the back,

it said, fuck all of y'all, or something, let me ask Kate, is that what did they say? I don't care? It didn't exactly say that. I really, I really don't care to you. Yeah. It was like a thousand dollar jacket too, right? Like it was like a, or like a really expensive jacket. It was a really, no, it was like a $40 jacket, which made it even weirder because she normally wore $50,000 jacket, so it made no sense.

But is there, is there a double standard, Jeff, and how the media chooses to scrutinize or uplift first ladies now? Yeah, I mean I think everyone goes to their home side and starts advocating and tearing down the other side because that's what's expected. You know, we were talking earlier about the Michelle Obama like let's move campaign and like, you know, growing a garden in the White House. And like, conservative media didn't like that. Like, they attacked her for encouraging kids eat vegetables. So it's, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, like carrots are a cultural word thing now. There was a whole thing of like mockery of like calling Dr. Jill Biden, Dr. Jill Biden, like a degree she had earned and it was like a

cycle of news of we're not going to call her doctor. She's not an actual doctor if you're dying in the street she's not going to operate on you right there. So therefore she's not a doctor. And you know, the samething like anything Malani did would be defended. Wearing the jacket was fine, you know, no criticism. Kate, why is there such scrutiny around what a first lady, like historically it's always been a thing. Like I remember my mother and to this day my mom talks about I want elbow length gloves like Jackie Onassis. That's all like, I don't know what it is, but for her, there is a regalness, there is an elegance that she associates with the first lady.

And I too can be as elegant and grand as Jackie O'Nis, all the way down to, oh my God, Michelle Obama showed her arms. Could you believe she out there showing arms? She looked like a baby mama. What is with the fascination and the scrutiny of what first ladies choose to wear? You know, I think that, and it's interesting because the Jackie Kennedy's, it's like the famous Chanel suits that she would wear, the pillbox hat, that was all made in America because she got criticized for wearing foreign

designers. So she had knockoffs made in the US of these fancy gowns and then she was the first first lady to bring in her you know own basically in-house stylist. I think that the thing with Michelle Obama's arms was really strange to me because there was such a fascination with them. Also, and just how like, you know, I think she started a whole craze of women wanting to look like her too, because she is so in shape, right? And we don't see first ladies, normally they're a bit doubtier like Barbara Bush, right? And they look more like your grandma. And so I think that in a way, you know, there was there was there was there was there was there was there was there was there was there was there was there was there was there was there was their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi thi thi thi, thi, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thiiiiiiii. thiiii. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. they look more like your grandma. And so I think that in a way, you know, there was also a lot of positives about the arms, at least to me, I thought her arms were amazing.

She created style staples, I would argue. She did, like the sleeveless she wore, but to your question about why it matters, I think it's because they can't really say anything. Like, they can't come out. Laura Bush is pro-choice. She can't come out and say that. Her husband's pro-life. So they can't say anything substantive.

So the only way they can be heard is through these choices of what they're wearing. Do you think Hillary's pantsuit plays into that same theme? Because, I mean, she ran for their their their their their their, tha, while she was still first lady. So it was almost like a statement and saying like no I'm here to handle it. Y'all respect suits as that's what people wear when you think they're here to handle business so I'm gonna wear a pantsuit. Yeah I think so I think absolutely but I think there's a risk of weighing in like reading into it too much like Melania wore white at the state of the union one year and we were all thinking, oh, is she a suffragists now? Is this, you know, white is the color of the suffrage movement?

And you know, is she, is this hidden message to her husband when really we see, that was just what Democrats I think were secretly hoping for with Melania. I think there was a lot of hope that she was this prisoner in the White, the white, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thri and in reality, she was really 100% behind him on every issue. Tough as nails. I mean, she's not some victim. And I think we see that now, that she's doing all this stuff with selling NFTs, and you know, kind of making money off of the position

in a way we have never seen before. Because, you know, usually you donate your gowns to the Smithsonian so the Americans can see it and you know it's part of American history and not selling it to the highest bidder. Oh yeah, you set it at an auction for a quarter of a million dollars and then no one bids on it and then you take it off the market. A little depressing for that. Jeff what does this scrutiny say thoughthough, about gender expectations? You know, like, you cannot show your arms, you cannot show too much leg, even though we're going to Hawaii where you will wear a bikini, wait until you are alone and private to

put on the bikini. And what happens, you know, when a first lady strays away from that ideal? It'll be interesting to see, like, talking earlier about like, you know, what happens when it's the first gentleman? Like, are those, like, are those same criticisms? Like, if there's, you know, can a first gentleman show too much skin? Can, you know, are they going to be criticized for what clothes they wear, you know, like, you just put it in that context, like, I don't think that, you that, you that, you, you, you, you, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the... Like, the. Like, the. Like, th. Like, th. Like, th. Like, th. Like, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the happen. Exactly. It's not going to happen. So it's, you know, that right there shows like the delicate like, you know, high wire, you know, walk that these women have to do to like not offend on every little thing that like someone will take offense to.

And like one person taking offense to, you know, showing arms, you know, showing, the wrong to the new cycle for days, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, and, their, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, and, the, they.. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they hat, it turns into a new cycle for days and weeks and then it becomes a thing that people are questioning and get asked about. Kate, how much does feminism play into what's happened in the last 20 years as well and some of the choices that First Ladies make that push against the societal, expect, the traditional societal expectations of the First Lady? I mean, the point that Jeff was making is that a man in this position wouldn't be scrutinized because he wore shorts at all. And the fact that a woman would shows that we haven't really made very much headway, you know.

And the fact that, you know, I don't, I mean, Michelle Obama probably, I don't think she could have continued her career as a lawyer just because there probably are conflicts of interest and all of that. But, you know, the fact that Dr. Biden is getting criticized for using the doctor title is just such a sign that, you know, we haven't made the strides in the White House that we have outside of the White House. I think there's been more progress. I mean, listen, women still don't get paid the same as men for the same work. So I don't think we've made enough strides, but I think for some reason this role is just, it's ingrained in our conscience because it's the closest thing we have to the royal family.

And so I feel like we treat them kind of like queens, you know, instead of professional women. And I don't know how we get out of that. Yeah Because those are our two royal families the White House and the Kardashians. That's the sad statements. Well they both influence fashion. That's probably true. Before we go to the break, Jeff, how do you unpack all of this stuff and figure out? Like how do y'all zero in on what's funny because the balance the show is the the the balance of the show is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the white the white the the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the white the white the white the white the white the white the white the white the white the white the white the white the white the white the white. the the the to the break, Jeff, how do you unpack all of this stuff and figure out, like, how do y'all zero in on what's funny? Because the balance at the show is always, what do you need to know versus what would be entertaining? So, how did you all navigate trying to put jokes in the middle of, oh yeah, she's criticized, probably racially motivated? Oh, yeah, Melania might not move to Washington, D.C? How do you all? How? How? How, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th the the tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, the the the tho, zero, the tho, tho, th criticized, probably racially motivated.

Oh yeah, Melania might not move to Washington, D.C. How do y'all navigate infusing humor into a historical segment? You know, sometimes we'll just give a bucket to some of the writers and be like, well, we could end on this story, we could end on that story. We'll give them three different stories and let them choose which one they thi thi the best. to to thoe thoe thoe........ thoe. thoe. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. thi. thi. thi. I thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. thea. the the. different stories and let them choose which one they think they have the best opportunity to make a joke off of. You know, it's not always necessarily finding the funniest footage, although that's always a goal. And so like, you know, we came across the footage of like best truemen, you know, and she was, you know, she's christening these planes. We use this, you know, the story, you know, throwne. the story, the story, the story, the story, the story, the story, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the f. the f. the funniest, the f. the f. the funniest, the f. the f. the f. the funniest, the f. the funniest, the f. the funniest, the funniest, the f. the funniest, the f. is, the funniest, the f. is, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the funniest, the f. the f. the f. the f. the f. the fain,'s not like cracked, so like, you know, it doesn't break. The footage is like this 1940s news reel.

So it's like the, you know, at the new, at the airfield, there's, you know, drama. Yeah, exactly. And you see the footage, and they just, you know, she's whacking it and over and over again, and like you just hear the audience, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, th, th, the, th, th, th, th, the, th, th, th, the, the, th, th, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the it's just like that you hear the audience laughter and like the narrator's telling everything that's going on and like it has to happen like half a dozen a dozen times I wish we had been able to like just play the entire thing and its entirety because like it just builds and the drama builds and like you just hear it and you you feel so bad for her. What?

You really do. And you're like, oh bad, like, I can't imagine like what that, if that had happened today, how like, like, crazy the news would have been of like, you know, Jill Biden not able to break a champagne bottle. thin' thin' the future. Yeah, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, it's like when Hillary kind of feign it walking out of that sprinter during the election, oh she out there passing out, is that the president? Look at Jill Biden going up on the stage. I loved that when she went up on the stage during the campaign and like went and like defended

our husband against some protesters and like you see stuff like that. And you see who they are and just see them as human beings. And we don't get to see that enough, I think, for First Ladies. Yeah, they definitely have to mask who they really are to, like, be this persona that America will accept. Okay, so then right there, that's a great place to go to break, because I want to the other side of the break as we wrap up here, I want to find out from both the th th th th th th the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th to be th to be to like to like to like to like to like to like to be to be to be to be to like to like to be to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like to like th, th, th, th, like th, like th, like th, like th, like the the the, like the, like the, the, like, the, like, theat, like, the, like, like, theat, like, like, like, theat, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the of you what you think deems a first lady successful. Just just just marinate on that. And we got to talk about first dude and what's the role of first dude. Because we have a chance now, Jeff, you and I, to establish what the baseline rules will be for first dude.

Outfits and his role in the White House. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. John Stewart here. Unbelievably exciting news. My new podcast, The Weekly Show, the weekly show. We're going to be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. Kate, I'll start with you because you have a New York Times bestseller about a lot of the First Ladies that I occupy at this space. Jeff, I don't think you have a best, do you?

I do not. No books to my name. Okay, so then Kate, I will start with you. What makes a first lady successful? Because I feel like with the role of president, it's not really, like, there's the presidency and then there's the 20, 20 year afterglow when we look at the policies and how they actually matriculated or not. And I feel like a president's judged twice in a way.

Or you can, you know, pull a bush and do a revisionist history and sit next to Michelle Obama and give a little pieces of candy and everybody forgets about, yeah, that stuff. But for the role of First Lady, you know, what deems a First Lady successful and what do you think about current First Lady, Dr. Jill Biden? Well we've been talking about how the role has changed or not and how old-fashioned it is and how inherently gendered it is. I think that each first lady who moves it forward just moves the ball forward. It's going to be, it takes a long time to get there. But I think, you know, Michelle Obama, first black, first lady, just simply by being there.

She did so much and then by doing so much good. Michelle Obama had a lot of assets that other first ladies don't have. She's able to be very relatable and warm. And I think some people like Melania are just not able to do that. But I think that moves the ball for it. I think Hillary did by having that West Wing office that she regretted by becoming a senator and you know a candidate for

president and the first woman to win the nomination was huge. But it's just moving the ball, you know, down the field, I don't know my sports analogies that well, but like where you know each each one is doing little like, you you know inch and I think Dr. Biden is the best recent example of that. that. that. that. that, because because because because because because because because, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, you that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that, that, that, that, that that, that, that, that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that that that, that that, that I I I I th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi's thi's thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you know, thi, And I think Dr. Biden is the best recent example of that because just by having a job is so like crazy that we think that's amazing, but it is because no one's done it before. She gets paid, she leaves the White House, she goes to her job. That's amazing that she's done that. And a lot of people don't like it. But people were worried that she wouldn't be able to balance everything and I think that the main problem she has is you know during the pandemic is just

having the ability to do the traditional things that we expect like you know she doesn't really have like one set platform you know but neither did Melania because be bestBest just didn't really count to me because it just was way too broad and we don't know what it meant and like Dr. Biden I don't think I don't think she has one thing that she's latched on to yet and and I know from you know having talked to her and people around her that because it's because of the pandemic. Jeff, we have a second gentleman in the White House right now.

And, you know, number one, what do we think the role of it? Because I think it's an interesting opportunity, if we're talking about gender dynamics and the role of a man within the house as it relates to supporting his woman, because I believe that what's going on between Kamala Harris and her husband, there are a lot of households like that in America, where the woman is the mover and the shaker,

and she's the one kind of more in the forefront. What do you think the role of first gentleman will look like, you know, as we go forward, because we are having more women in politics. This is not uncommon. So Kamala is not going to be the last of this iteration of the working, the working woman politician being at the forefront and the man being there and being supportive.

What do you think the first gentleman should do? What are the expectations, thion, thia thia thia thia thia thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, tho. tho. thoooooooo. thooooo. thoooo. thoo. tho. tho. ththe first gentleman should do? Like, what are the expectations? Yeah, I think it'll be really interesting to watch because it's like, you know, with the responsibilities that are, you know, handed off to first ladies right now, like, will they end up having to like decorate the Christmas trees? Like, is that a responsibility? And if they are, are there going to be like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the... the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the., is that, is that, is it going to be like that traditional? Like, the guy's going to be, you know, mowing the lawn, you know, the front lawn?

Like, it'll be interesting to see, like, how. The first gentleman, the first work on the beast, right? You know, the limos, like they'll just be in the garage. Like, you know, if there's some, if there are expectations to do like, like, what the gender-defined roles are, then, like, you know, those are the things that, you know, we see in that like if when that happens that like you know when it starts going back and forth between having a first gentleman and a first lady when it goes back to being a first lady that like a lot of those roles those expectations are gone and like first ladies and women can do whatever they want and like there

isn't that gender you know to find roles anymore. Yeah I think another part of it as well Kate is you know when once once we see a woman in office who has children and the role that the first gentleman plays in the expectations of parenting and fatherhood, I think that's probably something that'll probably be a bigger part of the conversation as we see more and more women elected into higher and higher positions in this country. I think so, and think you know to just point about the about Doug Amhoff like the idea that you know we're actually not seeing him expected to play those male like the you know we're not expecting him to be this tough macho guy

like he's out there he's very warm and fuzzy and kind of, he's the consular in the dynamic, right? Kamala Harris is getting business done and she's the powerful person and right now in their relationship and he seems okay with that. You know, he's teaching law at Georgetown. He was a corporate lawyer, right, in California, and he's put that, you know, that's taken the backseat. And now he's out there, you know, visiting people getting COVID shots and consoling, recently he consoled a kid who was crying because they were afraid about the COVID shot. Like, he's doing the stuff that we expect women to do.

And I think that that's what is so great about him, is that he's just secure enough, whatever, in his manhood or whatever, that, you know, let's move forward where they don't have to be diff tough. He can, he can be, you know, himself. And I think, um, I think that's a great thing about that dynamic. And I don't know why we're not talking more about it. Like, to me, that's that that that that that's that's thi that's that's thi that's that's that's that's that's thi that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their thi. thi. thrue. thrue. thrue. toooooooooooooooooone. too. that's that's that's a that's a that's a that's Like, to me, that's amazing that we have a second gentleman, and it doesn't get that much press attention, and I'm not sure why. What is the relationship between the first ladies? You know, because it's a very unique shared experience that, like, literally less than 50 people can honestly say that they've done.

Like, is there a first ladies group chat? I know you said Laura and Michelle over Laura Bush and Michelle Obama, you know they talked a little bit while Michelle was in office but I look at that as more of a transitional here's what to expect girl you need to make sure that dinner's on the table at 530 or else Donald Rumsfield are coming in because but after the fact are still chill, are they still friends? What's that life like now for them? I don't, I wish, it's funny, I kind of, I talked to somebody who worked for the Obama's about this book I did about the First Ladies and I was like, do they, do they email each other? do they go out to lunch?

And he's like, this would be a great novel. It is not reality. Like, the reality is Michelle Obama and Laura Bush see each other at events. They're friendly, but they're not, like, they're not hanging out, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Do spirit fingers. It's too bad. I mean, I think Jill Biden and Michelle Obama developed like a real friendship, you know, especially after Bo Biden passed away. That was real. The Obama's and the Biden's, you know, Biden's grandkids or friends with the Obama's daughters, so you've got that connection. And so they

still are friendly. But, and I think they do lean on each other. And to me, that's what was really sad about the transition between the Trumps and the Biden's was there wasn't, like I know you said, you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you th you th you th you th you th you th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi, and I thi, and I thi, and I thi, and I th. And I th. And I thi, and it thi, and it's th. And I th. And I th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, and thi, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. th. th. And, and th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi the. the. th. the. the. th. the. the. th. the. the. the. And, th Trumps and the Biden's was there wasn't, like I know you said it's here's what to expect and it does seem very pro forma and kind of like humdrum, but that's really important when the first lady gives a tour of the White House to the incoming First Lady. Because it's, you know, part of the peaceful transfer of power, it's part of the truth. It since the Truman's, and the fact that that just didn't happen, it's terrible. And there were so many awful things going on that I think that that kind of like fell under the radar, but Melania didn't invite Jill Biden to the White House.

Melania had no relationship with any other first ladies, and I think that made it even harder for her. It's stuff like that that I think does matter even though it's the softer side of politics in the White House you should be able to reach back to the people who came before you and not have this like awful poisonous relationship with them which I think was what happened with Trump and Obama. Yeah it sounds a lot like high school. Have you think the so-and-so? We don't talk anymore. We just had calculus together that one time. But you start them on Facebook. Yeah.

And also copy a lot of Michelle Obama's speeches and stuff. But oh that, yeah. That's a conversation for another episode. So before we go, I want to test both of you all. I want to give you a little quiz. I want to test your knowledge on the first ladies. This is a segment I'm calling First Ladies first. We're going to put some music right there and make it feel dramatic. Now, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to read a fact about a first lady and you all are going to tell me who was the first first lady to accomplish that task.

Are you ready, Jeff? I don't know that my research went that deep and I guess I'll find out. We're going to find out. Listen, only one of you is a New York Times bestseller with a book that is swimming in these waters and one of you is a daily show producer who did some thorough research for about a week. Yeah, yeah. You can't show me up. Like a long time to go to it. That piece aired I think a year ago. All right first question. Who was the first first lady to win a Grammy? Just holler it out if you'd know it either. We don't have buzzers. We don't have a budget for that. I'd go with... Ah. Eleanor Roosevelt?

Hillary Clinton. Ah, okay. Okay. I was going to go with Michelle Obama. Make it recent. Michelle Obama's a solid guess. Hillary Clinton, 1997, Best Spoken Word Album. It was for the audio book of her bestseller, It Takes a Village. Michelle Obama won one, I think about two years ago,

and that was for her memoir Becoming. Next question. Who was the first, first lady to seek advice from an astrologer during the presidency. Nancy Reagan, she went to this woman, Joanne Quigley, and she actually had a board where she had days that her husband should travel and should not travel, and she would label them. Green was a good day, yellow was iffy, red was bad, because after the assassination attempt, she was so terrified that something would happen to him she reached out to this astrologer and then she would pillow talk him like don't you leave town next Thursday Ronald you

get a stay awes in America. She just wouldn't let him go it was like not gonna happen it was not on his schedule if it was a red day she controlled the calendar but Nancy nuclear weapons are in the why did all this stuff why did I sound like like like like like like like that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. ttolde they. they. they. they. they. they. they. the the the the the are in the day. Why did all this thing? Why do I sound like Chris Farley? I'm a fan down What a terrible Ronald Reagan. I think that's as good a place as any to end. That's all the time we have. Thank you so much today for going beyond the scenes. Our guest Jeff and Kate. Thank you so much for going beyond the scenes with us. Thank you. Thank you. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the IHeart Radio App or wherever you get your podcasts.

Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a comedy central podcast. Survivor 47 is here, which means we're bringing you a brand new season of the only official Survivor podcast on fire. And this season we are joined by fan favorite and survivor 46 runner-up Charlie Davis to bring you even further inside the action Charlie I'm excited to do this together. Thanks Jeff so excited to be here and I can't wait to bring you inside the mind of a survivor player

for season 47th. Listen to on fire the official survivor podcast starting September 18th wherever you get