The Daily Show: Ears Edition - America's Top Female Journalists Discuss Their Craft

Episode Date: July 25, 2023

The Daily Show may be fake news, but it has hosted plenty of real news greats, including Christiane Amanpour, Soledad O’Brien, and Dorothy Butler Gilliam. These journalists discuss standing up for the truth, the state of democracy, what it's like to be a Black reporter in America, and more.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show, coming out every Thursday. We're going to be talking about the election, earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. Everyone has been talking about the situation in Iran.

And if you haven't heard, about 10 days ago, a young woman named Masa Amini was arrested by the morality police for not properly covering her hair and then she died in their custody. Ever since then, Iranians have been pouring into the streets, demanding justice for her death and freedom for Iran's women. Now, so far, the government has answered the protesters with brutal violence and has shown no signs of reconsidering the law that requires women to cover their hair. In fact, last week, the president of Iran was scheduled to be interviewed by CNN's Christian Armandpor in New York, and at the last minute he demanded that she wear a headscarf for the interview. Even though the interview was in New York, and when she refused, he straight up, just canceled

the interview and left, just left her looking like she was giving therapy to a ghost. So joining me now to talk about the interview and the situation in Iran is Christian Amon Paul. Christian, welcome to the show. Let's jump straight into it. You have interviewed many Iranian presidents. You have never been in a situation like this before, where they demanded of you that you wear the headscarf not in Iran.

Walk me through the situation and also why you chose to not do what the presidents of Iran requested. Well, very briefly, like, you know, with my team, we wanted to do this interview and we were going to get the Iranian president's first and exclusive interview on American soil. As you know, because New Yorkers know, it's gridlock at the UN, this is the UN week, and one of the things we like to do is get voices from all over the world, including the Iranian president. So I've done this now many years, and I've always had the first interview with the latest

Iranian president, and it's never been an issue. There is no law in the United States that requires a journalist to wear a scarf for any interview. And it was never an issue. And by the way, I find out that this guy, he had a breakfast, he had a press conference, and he didn't require anybody to wear a scarf. So, you know, come to the evening and it's now eight o'clock and then they say he's praying and he's resting and, you know, we're going to do it a little bit later. And suddenly, an aide came and said, we would like, the president would like you to wear a scarf.

I'm like, why? Why, I don't have to wear a scarf. I'm like, why? No, I don't have to wear a scarf. Anyway, cut to the chase. It is not law and as a journalist I made instantaneously a journalistic decision based on the principle that A, it wasn't law and B, you don't get, you know, strong-armed by a foreign government or any government when you're trying to sit and conduct a previously arranged interview. It seems like, and I can't help thinking, that this was most probably, I guess in some

way, shape or form motivated by the timing. You know, you are of Iranian descent. Do you think that there was an element of him not wanting to appear on camera with you for fear of a message it may send to a country that's very quickly turning against this dictator? Well, I think you're right. I mean, I don't know that I'm sure, but I do actually believe that he did not want to be seen with a woman whose head was uncovered, right at the same time thr-a, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, and thin, thin, and thi, thin, thi, and thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to be to be to be to be to be to be, to be thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to toeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, for to thi, for thi, for thi, for the same time that in his own country there was an uprising on the streets and in fact a woman had died, a young woman had died because of

this while in the custody of the morality police. And I would just say that this morality police has been around since 40 plus years of the Islamic Revolution. But under some presidents it's less obvious and less strict, and under some, it's much more strict. So this particular president is one of the very hard-line varieties. And he basically came to power by making the crackdown on all sorts of social norms, including on women's dress and their activity. That was a central theme of his campaign.

And clearly, it's all gone, as we say, pear-shaped, because I don't think he expected that something like this would cause the worst uprising in Iran since 2009. It's really interesting. And your audience should know and your viewers that some 80 percent of the Iranian people are under the age of 21. 60% of Iranian students and university graduates are women. Women have a lot of power and they want their full rights. I think they have every right to want that. And across the world, you know, I think there may be some misconception.

Some see this as these women completely going up against Islam, when in fact it's not that. What they're saying is they have nothing against anybody practicing a religion or anyone, you know, dressing the way their religion requires. Their qualms seems to be about the government forcing people to do it should they not wish to. Is that correct? Look, that is correct. The fact of the matter is that it is the law, at least the social law.

I don't know, it's written in the legal books, but it is the social and religious law. the legal books, but it is the social of the Revolution, which happened in 1979. But interestingly, Trevor, you know, the women came out in the streets back then, 40 plus years ago, to also call for a change of regime. But they were not wearing head scarves, and there was no question at that time where the beginning of head scarves being compulsory. I know women who went into the streets at that time, including members of my own family, who wanted to get to get the the the the the their their their went into the streets at that time, including members of my own family, who wanted to get rid of one monarchy for what they thought was going to be democracy.

Then, very shortly thereafter, Ayatollah Chomeney said, oh no, actually you women, you need to be, you know, veiled. And that has been a bubbling cauldron for the last many, many years. I had a wonderful woman on my show tonight, Marijan's Satrapi, if any of you know the graphic novel Persepolis, which she wrote about her childhood, she basically said this, look, the people of Iran want a democracy. The minute you take off the veil, you know, their dictatorship will go.

So the regime is not going to allow that. But she said, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she's, she's, she's, she's not, she's not, she's not, she's not, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to told, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, the tho, the thooooo, the thooo, the thooooooo. tolde, tolde, told, told, to put it this way, it's only to keep men's eyes off women. So if they're so porny, she said, and they're so unable to control themselves, well maybe they should take a cold shower or look somewhere else. And that's the bottom line, and I'm sorry to say, even in your country, Trevor, even in the United States with this law that has banned the ability for women to make their own choices about their own bodies, it's something incredibly important that we have to keep an eye on.

And in that moment, I was not, as a journalist or as a woman, going to put a head scarf on and somehow bind myself in some kind of, you know. Well, as always, I appreciate you taking the the the the the the the the the the the the time the time time the time to to the to to the to the to the to to the to times ti to ti to ti to make to make ti to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make to make tia tia tia tia ti. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. t as always, I appreciate you taking the time to join us on the show. I appreciate you, you know, I've grown up watching you cover all of these stories and as always, I appreciate the work that you do out there. Thank you so much for joining us on the Daily Show once again. Thank you. Be sure to watch Christian's I'm on Paul's show. It is on CNN I, which airs weekdays on PBS in the United States. We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back after this.

Hey, everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, the weekly show. It's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting, you'll be saying to yourself, TGID, thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election, economics, earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth,

but in importance it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. Earlier today, I spoke with award-winning broadcast journalist Soledad O'Brien. We chatted about the media's coverage of the election, of Donald Trump, and so much more. Soledadot O'Brien, welcome to the Daily Social Distancing Show. Thank you, thanks for having me.

You're one of my favorite people to talk to about this topic in particular because you've worked in TV journalism, TV news for, what, three decades now. Everybody from CNN to MSNBC, etc. You've also been very critical of how the media has handled not just the election, but news in general. Let's start with the election and talk about that. What do you think the news and the media have gotten wrong in covering the election? I think it's always a mistake to platform lies. And I think the mistake that's been made is to uncritically quote or tweak quote the president who is lying.

We know he's lying. We count, actually, the thousands of lies that he tweets and says every single day. And so to just quote the president and give him a platform for something that to, all know, is a lie, is a huge mistake and that continued on during the election and to the past four years. So that's been terrible, but I think post-election has gotten better, post-election day. Let's talk a little bit about that because America is in a tough place, right? It's an interesting country because there is the idea that it's not a monarchy.

They say this is a society, it's a democracy, the president, the president is a civil servant just like every other one. But then there's also a certain reverence, it's the president, this is the president. And so even though Donald Trump is lying, the president is speaking. And so you can feel journalists have this thing where they go, the president told me me me me me me me th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the their, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. the, the, th. the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th. th, th, th, th, th, the, th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, thi, thi, the. And, the. And so you can feel journalists have this thing where they go, the president told me that my mother is responsible for the stolen votes and I asked my mom and she did not agree but that's what the president said. It like how how do you think the media has to figure out how to navigate that relationship because I can see a lot of them don't want to seem disrespectful of the president but at the same time because he's now the president the president he's the president he's the president he's the president he's the president he's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the I I I I I I I I I'm the the I'm the the I'm. the the I'm. the the the the. the the. the the the the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the president is is is is is the president is the the president is. is the the the the the the the president is is. is. is. is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the the the the the the the the the the the the.ea. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the same time, because he's now the president, he can just lie and then the media has to say what his lie was.

Yeah, there's been a reverence for the office, right? Even though the person in the office wasn't particularly reverent himself or deserving of the reverence. And I think it's one of the reasons that we saw, oh my gosh, the New York Times, beginning to call the president's lies, lies. I'm going to take full credit for that. I'm going to take credit for that. It took something like three years, but things that were lies were lies and they wouldn't want to say. Or things that were racist, just saying this is racist. The statement is racist. And I do believe it's because of that very thing. There's a sense that whether you like the guy or hate the guy, the office itself deserves a certain reverence. And so I think that really did slow the media down.

Plus I would argue when you want to have access, you have a president who's reading everything you're writing and everything you're tweeting, you have to be very careful about how you frame things or there's a good chance you're not going to get access, frankly. Yeah, but that's something I find I'm s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s s a that's that's that's that's that's that's thi thi journalism, for the most parts. Like, I live in a country where you didn't have access. That's just how it worked. You know, I've lived in countries around the world where it's like, you don't have. Access is not what journalists have. Access is not what journalists have.

Access, find the things that are not given to you with access. Because, access, in my opinion, often comes, the the their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiomomomomomomo, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi....... And, thi, thi. And, thi. And, their, their. their. thi. thi. thr. thee. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. to so many things, they had access to the lies about Vietnam. That was the access. So I wonder sometimes like, why are American journalists so obsessed with access when that access could be misinformation. It should be journalism, shouldn't it? Yeah, I think there's a quid pro quo that comes with access, right? And that is either you're going to slide something nice about me and your next article or your next column you're going to quote me or you know it's a I scratch your back you scratch my back I get some interesting breaking news and and then you get to feed off of that for a while you know what you're seeing right now right or the pundits have gone away no one wants to hear from the pundits they're wrong they're a mess who cares failed congressman we don't need them. You know what they're doing? TV news organizations are camped out talking to the head of elections in Maricopa County, right? Like, that is journalism, that is reporting,

that is not access. Someone call you up, you scratch my back, I scratch yours. It's just doing the work. And I would argue most journalists are not access journalists. They're not going to write a book about their time at the White House. They're not going to tell you funny stories about hanging out with John Boehner. They go every day and go into communities and try to figure out what the accurate story is. And sometimes they get it right. Sometimes mistakes are made. And I think most journalists do a really good job. But when you're going for access, I do thia, I thia, I thi, I thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm thi, and I'm think it kind of screws up your perspective. And yeah, you don't need access to do good reporting. You really don't. It's interesting that you bring that up, because it feels like when people talk about the

media, what we often mean, especially in America, is cable news. I mean for the most parts, you know? Because you are completely correct. If you read your news, the toebblers, the stories that inform how we even see the world. But when it comes to cable news, pundits seem to be more important than facts. Like, you know, you just bring people on. You're just gonna be like, I'm just gonna bring on this one person

to say why Latinos like Trump. And then I'm gonna bring on another person to say why Latinos don't like Trump. Now you guys fight? Thank you you you you you you you you th you th you th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thu. thu. thu. to to to to to to to to to thu. to to to to to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thru. theei. thei. thei. thei. thei. to to the screen, but it doesn't really inform people. It's just people's opinions and pundits just trying to guess something. And then by the way, if they get it wrong, there's no ramification. They can just be like, oh yeah, this is why I was wrong, it's not because of me, it's because the information didn't match what I was saying. Yeah, and also I think the important piece you're the important the important the important the important the important the important. The the important the important. The the important the important the important the important the important the important the important the important the important the important the important the important the important piece you're, the information. The information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information. The information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the information, the important, the important, the important, the important piece you're missing is it's cheap. It's cheap. You pay all those people.

They are on every show, they rotate through, you've seen the nine person set, right? It doesn't cost any money. You know it's expensive going into the field with a crew for the next three days and shooting and doing interviews and then running your story and bringing it back and editing your story. That costs a lot of money and actually you can hire a guy or two for thi. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. And they. they. they're. their. their. they're. they're. they're. their. they're. they're. they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're on. they're they're on. They're they're they're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. They're. they're. they're. they're. they're. they're. the. the. their. their. their. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. the. I'll the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. I're they're actually, you can hire a guy or two for that same cost, right? And they'll be on your set for the next year. That contributor contract is for every show that they want to be on over the next year. It's a sunk cost, it's very easy, and it costs you no money.

Yeah, and then you also have this built inin sense of urgency and sense of drama that I think everybody feels every story needs that actually takes some work when you're gonna do it in a tape spot. So I truly believe a big factor in that is just cost, it's just money. You've been someone who's been critical of the media for a while, especially like, and not broadly. Obviously, you know, you've given props to the short, th me, th me, th me, th me, th me, and th. th. th., tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, and tho, and tho, and tho, and tho, and tho, and tho, and tho, and thi, and thi, and tho, and tho, and thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, thi, thi, and thi, thi, thi, and thi, thi.. toooooooooooooan, and tooooooooooooan, and toooooooooo.. tha, tha, tha, and not broadly. Obviously, you know, you've given props where props are due, but you have pointed out the shortcomings.

When you look at the news, especially cable news, we have to acknowledge that there is, there is like a certain price to pay for like neutrality, for instance. Like, cable news likes to bring people on to go, like, this person believes that black people are human beings, but this person doesn't agree. Let's talk to them and see why they say that. This neutrality on the surface seems to be about impartiality, but really what it creates is a world where there is no fact, there is nothing we agree on, it's all up for discussion, and again, it's great for ratings, but it's not good for informing people.

How do you think news networks can find that balance? Because at the end of the day, they're businesses now, but they're also claiming to inform people. Is there a balance that can be achieved? Yeah, absolutely. I actually think people really want context. I think it's one of the reasons that podcasts are so successful now. People want to understand. So wait. Walk me through the history a little bit an w-and. their point. point of view exactly right? They want to hear the well-told story rolled out and explained versus this guy, Rick Santorum, who's going to make up something because he's not an expert in it a lot except for being a failed congressman versus pick your other congressman on the other side. And I I think this death of expertise is really problematic. When we started doing our, we do a show about policy

called Matter of Fact, we're not live. I was like, oh my God, what are we gonna do? The president is tweeting every morning and we pre-taped our show on a Thursday for Sunday. So we decided we would lean in very hard to context. What is the first amendment? What is it, what is gerrymandering mean? And where did it come from? How is it possible that you can live on an income, a minimum wage income and not be able to afford a two-bedroom apartment?

And because of that, we actually very rarely talk politics. We talk about policy. We talk about people. I have no idea if they're Republicans, if they're Democrats, if they're Democrats, if they're Democrats, if they're Democrats, if they're Democrats, if they're Democrats, they vote, they're Democrats, they vote, they're they're they vote, they're, they're, they're, they're, th and th and th and th and th and th at thoe and thoe and thathea, thoea, thoe and thoomoomorrow, and thoomoomoomorrow, and thoomoom and thoom and thoom and tho, and tho, and tho, and tho, and the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their.. their. their. their. thea, thea. thea. thea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. too tooea. tooea. toea, they're independents, if they vote, they tell us what's happening in their lives and we talk about the policy. And because it's not framed as this versus this, I think it's a much more interesting conversation. And it does really well. We do better than most of the cable shows. If the election is called, and if Joe Biden becomes president, thrown, thr-a. the the the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the thi. the thi. thi. thi. their. their. thi. thi. thi. thi. thoe. thi. thi. thi. thi. tho. th. th. thi. thi. thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And their. And their their their their their their their their their their the. the. the. toe. toe. toeeeeeeee. toea. toea. th. theeeeea. th. th. And th. And th. And th. be taking office, at some point he will move into the White House, which means at some point, Donald Trump will no longer be President of the United States.

If that were to happen, what would your advice be to newsrooms? Because I strongly suspect that they're gonna try to keep covering Trump, despite the fact that he's no longer in office. They're gonna be like, what did he say today tod today today today today today today today today tod say today? Former President Trump said that burritos are part of the problem. What would your advice be to news networks post Donald Trump and people who are watching the news post Donald Trump? All that will matter is does his comments, do his comments bring ratings?

And I'm gonna argue they don't. You can see the poor Fox News anchors, right? When he's been on the phone with them for 30 minutes they're, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, to to to to too, to too, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their too, too, too, too, too, the been on the phone with them for 30 minutes they're like, well, Mr. President, I know you're very busy, Mr. President, I know you've got to go, Mr. President, and then he won't get off the phone. So, you know, I think if they think they can get ratings, it doesn't the threats. thate, that the top, who knows what he's going to do. But the song and dance is getting very, very old. Everybody understands it. And it's kind of brambly old grandpa, uncle, drunk, you know, things. Like, it's a kind of person you're like, okay, nice to see you. And then you move seven seats away.

Yes. You don't want to be part of that. And I think that he's falling into that category. And I can tell you only by watching, I feel sorry, which I rarely do for the Fox News anchors, but I feel sorry for them as they're trying that you have a show. I am glad that you have a podcast because as you say, people are enjoying the context and I appreciate the context that you bring. Thank you so much for joining us on the show and I hope to see you again. It's that with you. Thanks. Don't forget, Soledad's Public Affairs Show Matter of Fact

as Sundays on Hurst and be sure to check out her new podcast, very opinionated. We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back after this. Hey, everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show, it's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting. You'll be saying to yourself, TGID, thank God it's Thursday we're going to be talking about. All the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election. Economics. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls?

We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth, but in importance, it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart wherever you get your podcast. to make the media look more like America. Please welcome, Dorothy Butler Gilliam, everybody. Thank you so much for being here. This is one of those stories that genuinely hit me so hard because it feels like you have lived through some of the most seminal moments in American history,

and you were also reporting on it. You, you worked for 50 years in this business. What do you think was the biggest change that you saw in your time in journalism as the first African-American woman working at the Washington Post? I think the biggest change was after the urban uprisings of the 60s, when the Kerner commission, which was a commission that was named by the urban uprisings of the 60s, when the Kerner Commission, which was a commission that

was named by the president, said the media had in many ways contributed to the fact that the urban riots occurred. And that was because they had not integrated their reporting and the editing staffs. And in many ways, they said they were just showing us America only through white eyes. So I started at the post in 1961, when I went back in 1972, it was a little different because there were more reporters of color, more females. But still it was very white male dominated. You came into this world at a time

when it was just something that did not happen. You walked into a newsroom where there were only two other reporters who were black. You were the first African-American woman in this space. And reading in the book, there's one of the, I I mean just the most harrowing passages where they had a policy of not reporting when black people were murdered. One editor even called those cheap deaths that shouldn't be reported. Yeah. How do you even begin to work in that kind of environment and did you help the editors understand why it was crucial to report all news? I try to help them. And I think the way I began the way I began the way I began the way I began the way I began the way I began the way I began the way I began the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the the the the the the editors the editors the editors the editors. the editors to begin to begin to begin the editors the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors. the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors the editors their their their their their their their their their their. their. to begin to work work work work work work work work work in. to work. to work. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to.e. to. to.e.e. to help them, and I think the way I began working in that environment is because

Dr. Martin Luther King was beginning to say to young black people, go into white corporations and excel. So it felt like I was almost part of the freedom movement by going and becoming the first African-American woman at the Washington Post. I didn't think I was a trailblazer at that point. I just was doing a job that I loved. I had had four years in the black press and the black press has been very important in America, both in terms of reporting on civil rights, but in going going places where white reporters wouldn't go, where white

newspapers wouldn't go. So that experience also helped to prepare me for my work at the Washington Post. One of the first stories that I remember a lot was when I went to the University of Mississippi as part of the team from the post to cover the integration of Old Miss. And that was the most horrendous thing you can imagine, because Mississippi was one of those places where it was a lynching state. It was the heart of segregation and the university was like this bastion of white supremacy. So it was chaotic on the campus. But what hurt in

addition was that I had no place that I could get a room because they didn't have hotels for black people. So I slept in a black funeral home. And a funeral home. Yeah, I slept with the dead Trevor. This is is so insane that you have lived through that time. I'm honestly fascinated to know in that time when this was happening. Were you optimistic? Did you think that you would see America change? Or was the resistance to integration so strong that you thought it would last forever? The integration was so strong that I never thought I would see a black president.

Wow. That was a huge step forward in many ways. But of course with America, it can help be liberal and then it can swing to conservatism and you see what we have now. I see what we have now. I see what we have now. I do indeed. You reported on so many stories and your inclusion in the newsroom was powerful because it really felt like when you read the book you live through two of really the most important

eras in American history, in modern history, definitely. And that was women's movement for equal rights and black people's movements for civil rights. Which of the two did you feel like had more momentum when you were in them? Did you feel like, oh, this is going to happen or this one won't? Or did it feel like both were just moving forward? It felt that the freedom riders and the freedom, I called the whole civil rights movement, the freedom movement. Yes. It felt like it was going to open doors

for so many other people. Because after the civil rights movement, after the black power era, that's when Gloria Siamen wrote her article that said, after black power, women power. And so after the women power, it's the blacks who were the pioneering minority. And so after women power, then you had the oppression against gay people being really looked at and studied and acknowledged. Then you had the oppression against the disabled. So it's many ways, it's the black movement, I think, that was the most important movement.

Because all people all over the world were singing, We Shall Overcome. You know, in China, and all around the world, people who have been oppressed were saying, if that happened in America, you know, why can't it happen here? It's so powerful when you speak about how, when you first got to the post,, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the most the most the movement, tho, tho, I tho, the movement, the movement, I tho, I tho, I thoom movement, I tho, I tho, I tho, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I the movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement movement, the post movement, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, the post, their thoooooooooooooan, thoan, thoan, thoan, thiiiiia, thia,? It's so powerful when you speak about how, when you first got to the post, your mission was not to be a reporter that focused on black issues, but just a reporter who excelled. You didn't want to be pigeonholed as a black reporter. But then you came to realize that it was crucial for you to take up that mantle and report on black issues. Why do you think it's so important for mainstream media

to look more like actual America and not just have the voice of predominantly white men? Yeah. It's because you can't really talk about a community that you don't in some way know, that you don't in some way have more than a stereotyped a notion of what it's all about. And because with white supremacy in America, that whole narrative has also been accompanied

by an anti-black narrative. And very often, that's been since the beginning. This is 2019, we, African-Americans or black people have been in America 400 years. We were here a year before the Mayflower. But, you know, two and a half centuries of that was the era of slavery. And then at the era of Jim Crow. So, or segregation in the South, yeah. So the whole feeling that this is, this whole anti-black narrative that has been a part of the DNA almost of America as much as white supremacy. That has not really been acknowledged. It's been kind of glossed over and you pay attention to the violence that violence gets. Yes. But in terms of what motivated,

and a lot of it is about poverty, you know, poverty is very violent. And as you were saying in the segment with the billionaires you know it's very real what's happening in this country and it's been happening for a while. 50 years of writing 50 years of finding ways to report stories to, the, to the most shocking and I find funny at the same time stories is when you talked about how when yourself and colleagues would go to marches, you would have to disguise yourselves because you couldn't be journalists in public as black people. You would dress up as clergy, you dress up as priests and so forth and nuns and you would hide

typewriters under your clothing, which I didn't even know how they fit. But when you look at America today, how do you find that balance for yourself of both where America has come from and where America still needs to go? Okay, first I should say that those reporters who wrapped their old royal typewriters in old clothes when they went into the south because they didn't want the white sheriffs to arrest them. Wow. And so they would also, they would also decide the the their the the their thoes thoes tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho that that thate thate thate to to to to to to to thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to the old clothes when they went to the South because they didn't want the white sheriffs to arrest them. Wow. And so they would also disguise themselves as ministers and they carried Bibles under their arms and so that was a way of trying to get to the story and knowing that they couldn't go as

reporters. But where I see things today, I think it's the time when media is more important than ever. It was very difficult when the president started talking about fake news. It was very difficult because, you know, those of us who came up in the legacy media, we knew about all of the issues of ethics that we had to adhere to in order to be hired by the Washington Post and in order to work there. We knew that we didn't take gifts from anybody. We knew that we had to always pay our own way. We knew that we had studied in colleges and universities.

And so to have the, our whole process dismissed this fake news was not only detrimental to the U.S., but it was detrimental internationally because whatever we say about the faults of America, it still has been the faults of America, it still has been the bastion of democracy. And so when you have something as crucial, you know, as freedom of the press, being denigrated by the top official of the land, it has a very destabilizing effect in the whole world.

I could genuinely talk to you for hours, but luckily I have the book to keep me company. Thank you so much for being on the show.. It. It. It. It, th. It, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank thi. Thank thi. Thank thi. Thank that, that, that, that, thate. Thank thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, th and th and th and th and th and th and th, th, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, the the the the the the the best, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, tha, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha, tha, tha, tha, thi. talk to you for hours, but luckily I have the book to keep me company. Thank you so much for being on the show. It's an honor media. Thank you so much. Trailblazer is available now. A truly fascinating story. Dorothy Butler Gilliam, everybody.

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