The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Being a Black Journalist in America: Beyond the Scenes LIVE at SXSW | The Daily Show

Episode Date: March 23, 2022

In this live edition of Beyond the Scenes from South By Southwest in Austin, Texas, Roy Wood Jr. sits down with moderator of Washington Week on PBS, Yamiche Alcindor, CBS News Correspondent Vladimir Duthiers, and MSNBC host Symone D. Sanders for a poignant discussion about what it’s like to be a Black journalist and commentator in America. They each share personal experiences with racism on the job, talk about whether there’s been a shift in newsrooms to address the lack of representation, and exchange essential self-care tips for the job.Watch The Original Segment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xBNPdF1kZ4 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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but can he stay true to himself on the path to greatness? Executive produced by Will Smith and Westbrook Studios, Bel Air is streaming now exclusively on Peacock. Go to Peacock TV. to sign up. Hey, how you doing? My name is Roy Wood Jr. and this is a special edition of Beyond the Scenes live from Austin, Texas at South by Southwest. Audience, how are you all doing? A big Yehawk to you.

If you don't know, we are the podcast that takes segments and topics that we've discussed on the Daily Show and we dig into those topics a little bit deeper. Like, this is what this podcast is about. See, I like barbecues. We don't explain this podcast like barbecue. This podcast is like that white piece of bread under the ribs that's soaked in the sauce. You know, you came for the ribs, you know, that's Trevino, the ribs. But then after you have the ribs, you were like, you know what,

that little piece of bread was pretty good too. That's some good-ass bread. So that's what this podcast is. Today, we're going to be breaking down the top top top top top top top top top top to tod topic tod topic tod topic tod tod the tod the the the tod the the tod the today the the today today today we're going to be breaking down the topic of what it means to be black in media. Specifically, we're talking about journalists and we're also talking about correspondence and their role in the newsroom. The newsroom, we all know it's a predominantly white place. And what is it like, even pre-George Floyd and post-Trump, in an era where people are already anti-black but to add anti-media on top of that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. thi-s. thi-s. thi-s. Specifically, specifically thi-s. thi-s. Specifically, specifically thi-s. Specifically, specifically, specifically, specifically, specifically, specifically th. Specifically, specifically, specifically th. Specifically is like th. th is like th. th is like th. th. th. thi-m. thi-m. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the media-m. the-m. the-m. the-me. the-me. Specifically, specifically, specifically, specifically, the the the to-me. to-s. Specifically, specifically, specifically, specifically, specifically, specifically, to-i-s. to-s. to-s. to-s. to-s. to-s. to-s. to-s. to-s. to-Trump and post-Trump in an era where people are already anti-black but to add anti-media on top of that.

Some of the struggles that people deal with in that regard and also some of the solutions, and I'm very curious when I get to the panel on how they are able to release some of that stress. So with that aside, it is my pleasure for us to meet our panelists today. Our first guest is the moderator of Washington Week on PBS. She is also the Washington correspondent for NBC News. Ladies and gentlemen, Yemiche Alcinder. Happy to be here. Happy to be here.

Oh, thank you. Swing your microphone around. Swing your microphone. Just a look, there we go. There we go. Very, very excited to be here. We'll pick it up and dress it in a second there. This next brother on the panel, the people listening can't see this amazing leather jacket, but that is definitely an amazing Texas jacket right there. They don't let you wear that on CBS News and CBS Mornings where he's also a correspondent. Ladies and gentlemen, Vladimir Dutie, please give it up.

What up? Hi, everybody. And our last panelist is someone that is now in the correspondent's space. And she's been in there in some capacities in the past for a lot of various positions all across Washington, all over the aisle, but now you will know her on May 7th with her new show on MSNBC and Peacock. It will debut in May. She is Simone D. Sanders.

Yeah. Good readings. Happy to be here. Now before we get into the conversation with the panel about what it means to be black in journalism, like I said, Beyond the Scenes is a show that's derivative of topics that we have already breached on the Daily Show. So let's roll a quick clip of the last time I talked about what it means to be blackened media.

This clip is from 2016. When you're blacking on TV, people say awesome stuff to you like this. The post-colonial victim, I don't get to sorry. Yeah, no shit you don't, fake Gary Busey, and that ain't even the worst of it. Say you're a cocaine dealer, and you kind of look like one a little bit. He just said that, out loud. Most people would have to cuss that dude out, but if you're a black journalist, you gotta keep you cool. As do you, you got a cocaine user. So we're even. Black journalists constantly have to bite their tongue. They come closer to the line, but God bless them, they never cross it. Because if they do, then they'll be labeled an angry

black man. You can't be emotional about anything. Black journalists keeping their shit together is one of the few things moving the conversation on rates forward. So I salute the brave men and women of cable news because best believe if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't be able to hold myself back. I'm just tired of the police getting the brunt of everything that's going on inside the inner city Chicago. You people in Chicago. No. You know. Come on. So with that aside, let's go ahead and get into our conversation now and what it means to be black and journalism and media.

Simone, I want to start with you because, you know, Yemish and Vladimir, I know that you all deal with a lot of that stress, but it's often in a construct. Well, you can't exactly custom people out the way you want to but Simone because we've seen you on the various news talk shows Simone and you're very you're very composed I've never cursed I'd like to point out for the record I have never cursed there has there has the the their they. For the record I have never cursed there has there has obviously there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there have there there there there there have there have there have there have there have there have there have there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there's there there's the. the. the. the. the. the. there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there there there there there there like to point out to people. For the record, I have never cursed. Obviously, there have been times where I would like to curse, but I have never cursed because in the back of my head,

I'm like, well, I want to come back to work the next day. I do remember very vividly there was a time where someone, I used to be a commentator. And I've worked in all various spaces and places in the news, but at that time I was a political commentator after I worked for Senator Bernie Sanders in 2016, it's his press secretary when he went for president. That's why I met Yemiche. She was on the campaign trail. Yemiche was on the Bernie Beat. My phone is filled with baby Simone pictures by the the ta. There we go. Travel it all over the country together with too. Y. I, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, the the the, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the go, traveled all over the country together with this one. And I'm on this panel of CNN. It was post-Charlottesville. And we're talking about, you know, in the Trump area, you talked about things like white supremacy every day and, you know, racism.

And you argued about whether it was real, which is kind of insane, given what we have all witnessed the the the the the than than the than thu and the than than to have the the to have to have to have to have to have to have the the to have to have to have the to have to to to to to to to to to to have to have kind, and to have to to to to to to to to to to to told, and we're to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to told, and we told, and told, and told, and th..... And, and th. And, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th the. the the the the the the the thean. thean. thean. the told told told told, and told, and CC January 6th. And post Charlottesville, we were having a conversation about the people who had gotten the permit to have the neo-Nazi rally march, because you got to get a permit to do that. And the gentleman that I was on with, former Attorney General of Virginia, Ken Cuccinelli, he told me to shut up. He said, Simone, you just shut up for a minute and let me talk. And I was like, and then Chris Cuomo was on in the morning at that time

and I remember Chris saying, oh now Ken, we don't talk to people like that. And I was like, he sure doesn't talk to me like that this program and I will not stand by and let it happen And he's like well, how do you get them to stop talking? I'm like they say I'm right here kid That was an excuse look at the and now someone's dead. And can I finish Simone we just shut up for a minute and let me tell me easy sir you don't get to tell me to shut up on national television. Hold on. I'm sorry, under no circumstances do you get to speak to me in that matter? You should exhibit some decorum. Can they stay simple with how you, hold on. Guys, both of you stop for a second. Simone, can, no circumstances, lost the line. So you can't shut up. to you need to reset. It was crazy. It was so crazy. So that was the moment where I am glad that no cursewords. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C curse. C. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. So that was a moment where I am glad that no curse words came out of my mouth

because that is not okay for morning television, it's not okay for television period, but it was insane. What's the name of your book that you just wrote? The book was, no, you shut up. Speaking truth to power and reclaiming America. Then took his line and flipped him limensensensensensensensensensemememememememememememememememememememememed and flipped him li li li li li li li li li lia and flipped and flipped and flipped him lemons and the lemonade. Now, Yemish, you have been, you know, covering Washington for quite a while. And you have had some things said to you, you know, we can just start, let's just start with Trump. And in the thick of just asking very valid questions, very basic, rudimentary level, reporter to

leader of the free world questions, and you've been called, I want to get this right, and I'm quoting them. You've been called by the president, then president, racist, nasty, untruthful, and you also told to not be threatening. How do you keep your composure in those moments? When you are having nasty interactions, not just with Trump, but with anyone within the administration that is trying to shoo you away or dismiss questions that represent the valid concerns of the public, how do you keep your composure? Because that composure is an important ingredient in being able to do your job every day?

There are a couple ways that I deal with that, and I think there are two big ways. The first is that I want to keep my job, and I think that as a black woman, you get this muscle that you have learned to use over and over again because people say crazy things to you all your life. So long before Trump called me nasty, someone told me I wasn't pretty enough to be on TV, an editor told me I wasn't smart enough to be in their newsroom. I didn't look confident enough to be a reporter. Black people everywhere walking around, do all sorts of things to make sure that they survive interactions with their supervisors, and they survive interactions. their their their their their their their their th... th. thiii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thia. thia. toeathea. toeathea. thi. thia. toeateckn police, that they survive interactions with their supervisors, and they survive interactions at the hospital. So I

think, honestly, when I think about sort of how I was able to keep my composure, it's that as a black woman I had used that muscle so many times. Now I will also say that my mother is a hot-blooded Haitian lady and she was like, who's daughter are you? Like I don't understand how Trump is screaming at you and you're coming back and me like sir, do we have enough test for COVID or not? But the second part of that question is that when I think about March 2020, people were scared and I could feel it in my bones that we were a country who needed answers. We needed to know if our grandmother got sick was she going to have a ventilator? I wanted to know if their states needed more mass,

were we actually able to provide them that? I was having family members call me up who were getting fired from dry cleaners, makeup artists who didn't have jobs. My mother who was working in the school systems, she was retired now, but I was thinking about all of those people, and thin, they thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, we were thi, we were thi, we were thi, we were thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, we were thi, I was thi, I was a tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, tooanan, tooan, tooan, tooan, tooan, and, tooan, thii.. thiaa. thi. thi. thi. thi and thinking they're watching TV and like, while it might be funny to see kind of this caricature of a president screaming at people, in reality people were like, okay, but are we like apart from all this craziness, are you ready or not?

And that was like a question that I kept on asking and I wanted to keep asking because I think that we as a nation needed answer. So I think it's that double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's, it's, it's the double, it's the double, it's, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a the double, it's a double, it's a double, it's a double, it's a double, it's a double, it's a double, it's a double, it's a double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's a double, it's the double, it's the, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double, it's the double consciousness that DeBois always talked about. It's one having sort of the real responsibility of a journalist in my mind, but also just being black and realizing that I know how to survive crazy, frankly crazy people screaming at me and especially crazy powerful men screaming at me. I'm like, it's one of those things you just go, oh, yeah, that makes sense. You've been disrespected for so long that that's just some new disrespect. Blademyre, when you got into journalism,

were you aware at the time, you know, how much backlash there would be with where we are now in media and the role that your race plays into being able to either cover or not cover a story or dealing with the, the, that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, with, with, with, with the, with the, with the, with the, with the, with the bullshit with the bullshit with the bullshit with the bullshit with the bullshit with, with, with the bullshit, with, with the bullshit, with the, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, the bullshit, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit..a, with the bullshit with the bullshit with the bullshit with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the bullshit, with the role that your race plays into being able to either cover or not cover a story or dealing with the with the bullshit in the newsroom? Yeah because for me what Yamish described is as a muscle for me I've always equated it to I absorb body blows and I've always likened myself to Mohammed Ali facing George Foreman. And Ali is getting those blows, he's getting punch and everybody's saying he's gonna go down, he's gonna go down.

But you know Ali used to do that thing where he would just go, not gonna get me, not gonna get me. He would shake his head, right? And that has been my existence, Yames, yours, your father's, yours. That's been our existence for since we first came here. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, to to to to to to to to to to to to to th, th, thi. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, and thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the thi. toee is toe is toe is toe is to to the to the the the they the the thi. thi, your fathers, yours, that's been our existence for since we first came here. And I think that the, what you're seeing, what you heard from Yamish and Simone was high profile for millions of people watching CNN, right? With CNN, yeah, and for Yemish, the president of the United States. But what that was indicative of is what happens in newsrooms and in boardrooms all across America every single day. From the day, I remember once, I did a story in the wake

of the terrorist attacks in France in 2015, I'd done a story, a series of stories on the surrounding neighborhoods in Paris where most of the young people were mostly from Africa, from West Africa. And I came back and I was talking to somebody in the newsroom and he said to me, oh man that was really powerful reporting that you did. I got to think man, you know those people, the Muslims that live in some of those neighborhoods, they're like the end words of France. And I was like, did he just write? And he, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. like the end words of France. And I was like, did he just write? And he said it so casually, it just came off his lips, like, you know, and I was like, well, no, not really. And all right, I got to go. And you know, and I, you know, my head, as I walked away, I thought to myself, isn't that, isn't that the time when you go to somebody and you go, what did you say to me? Like, you step up to them and you say something.

But I just remember thinking to myself, like, this is so par for the course. I'm not, I'm kind of phased, but I'm not that phased. Or when another person, I don't have any hair if you can't tell, right? And I tell my mom, it's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. It's my, th. It's my, th. It's my, th. It's my, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin. thin. thin. thin. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. this is this is this is this is this is th. this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my. this is this is this is this is this is this is my. this is my. this is this is my. this is this is this is th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thr. thr. thr. thr. throooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo he like must my hair, like as, like, like patting me on the head. And I was like, I'm a 50 year old man. And you know, and this person just like manhandled me in a way that I haven't been like manhandled ever evide ever that, you know, and I didn't, I just remember just being kind of shock that he did it, but also, but th......... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. this th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. know? And I just remember just being kind of shocked that he did it, but also having sort of no recourse, because that's just kind of the way it is.

These little micro-aggressions that happened over time. And I knew them because I came from a different industry. I spent 20 years in Global Finance before I became a reporter. And so I witnessed it there, too, I witnessed it'sthere too, so it wasn't new for me. And as Yomiche said, as Simone indicated, you know, it's just one of those things that you sort of grin and bear it. I also think part of it is because my parents like Yamish's are immigrants.

And if I came home from school one day and I said, you know, I could use the N-word on me. My mom would say so, like, just get good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good good you'll be a doctor or you'll be a lawyer. You know, and like they, I think sometimes immigrants have these blinders on either side that say, yeah, it sucks that you got called the end word or sucks that you're being bullied because you're dressing black all the time. But the reality is look what we came from to give you this life and you can grin and bear it if we had to grin and bear what we went through to get you here. When did you all realize that you were black in media? And not just in media.

Because like, I know that we have this responsibility as black people to focus on issues that affect our people because we go back to those communities and we got neighbors and home boys from high school and people you kick it with and they're going through real stuff. Is there, when did you first have that realization and also, like the bigger part of it, are you all ever concerned about being labeled like only focusing on the black stuff? Why you always pitching the black stuff like are you ever afraid of that stigma of being the race reporter? I'm not and I say that because I think I I've one I

really love black people so and I was raised by Haitian immigrants who really taught me to love the history of black people Haiti being you know the first country in the Western Hemisphere where enslaved people russled their freedom from white masters, kicked their, and their, and their, their, their, their, their, and we their, th, th, and we their, and we th, their, and we their, their, and we've their, and their, their, their, liked, their, liked, thi, and we've their, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, liked, like, liked, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the first country in the Western Hemisphere where enslaved people wrestled their freedom from white masters, kicked them out of the country. We've been having all sorts of issues after that. But the pride that you get from growing up Haitian for me has made it so that I'm unequivocally invested in telling stories about immigrants and black people,

while the tell to have to tell stories about Ukraine and China and all the other stuff. I had some well-meaning mentors, well-meaning people, black people who told me, you know, be very careful about telling too many stories about black people because you'll be pigeon-hulled, because they had their experiences. Sometimes they were the first black reporter at the New York Times or other places where they could not do anything but tell. I I I I I I I I I, tel, their, their, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thateat, that, that, that, tel, tel, tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell me tell, tell, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, tel, telllllll, tell, thooeeea, thoooldld me tell, tell, tell, tell, tell, tell, tell, tell, tell. tell stories about black people. I'm lucky that while I've had some interactions with editors who say, you need to be really careful, I've had a lot of editors who say, no, we understand that you have an expertise and you should do that. I think about Trayvon Martin.

So I was in my 20s when travon got killed. And I was in a newsroom at the US, at USA Today, and we were having this national conversation about whether or not Trayvon was a troublemaker, wasn't he a bad kid? And I sort of was like, well, one, I grew up in Miami, I grew up literally across the street from one of his high schools. My cousins went to school with him, and I was like a 17-year-old who smokes weed, who has gold teeth, who likes M-MMA, nothing at all different about this kid than the person that you're standing that's standing in your newsroom right now. And I was very, very vocal about that. And I had editors, I will say some of them white men who had my back

who said, nope, she's smart and she's accurate and she's going to do this. So I think for me, I've never really shot away from it. And I think you know the last question or one of your questions about about about about about about about about about, I, their, I mean I always knew I was black and I always sort of knew that, right? Like I always feel like I knew going into the industry because I got into journalism because of the story of Emmett Till. So I mean that in that I knew exactly why I wanted to get into media was tied to civil rights. But when Ferguson happened and cities were on, and I was able to walk around and tell stories in a way that a lot of people couldn't because people didn't see them to have credibility in the community, because people were talking about looters and I was getting walked to my car.

While people were trying to steal gray goose, they were like, hey lady, you need a walk. And I to walk in my car. Like, like, like, you quote, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. they, they, they, people, they, they, they, they, they, they, people, they, they, they, they, they, oh yeah, I'm being black and media. It's good. This is all right. I can cover a protest. I will go to a right all by myself and be fine. Yeah.

Like, Simone, like even with your MSNBC show, as you start to shape what the conversations are that you focus on week to week, does that sit in the back of your mind of where does race play a role in the things that I'm passionate about or opinions be damned about what you think about the types of stuff that I want to talk about? You know when I I came to the world of media via politics and I remember my first like big political job was working for Senator Sanders. I had worked a number of campaigns before that but nobody either had a concept Sanders. I had worked a number of campaigns before that, but nobody either had a concept

that I had worked anywhere before that. They thought, okay, Bernie Sanders needs black people. He's gonna hire this black lady, and hopefully she knows how to do her job. So when I left the campaign and then started to do all these other things, particularly in media, there were lots of people, like Yemiche says, that people told her that she, you basically didn't look like a correspondent, you didn't look like a reporter.

I had agents tell me that I wasn't really palatable enough for cable television. And this was after I had served as somebody's national spokesperson for a presidential campaign where I was on TV almost every day. I had people tell me that I didn't sound like what people were used to hearing when they turned on the television. And what that meant is that I didn't sound like an old white man or old white lady, because those are the people on TV at the time. So you didn't like the instinct of code switch didn't flip it. Yeah, yeah, I was just like, okay. And maybe I was a little too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too or too big? I don't know. I don't know. I've looked like this for a while. So when I started doing, when I started being a commentator, and this plays into the things that I think about now as I'm building my show, I have somebody to tell me once a black

man who has been in the TV space for a very long time, and he said, you know, I want you to know something. You are not light skinning with long hair. And I said, facts. And he said, so because of that, there are just some things that you specifically cannot do and cannot say because whether you like it or not, people will hear it differently and take it differently coming from you. And people feel, whenever I tell that story, people feel different ways about it, but the reality is that it is true. And the reality the reality the reality. But the reality the reality. But the reality the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the reality, but the the the the the, but the, but the, but th. But, the the reality, the reality, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. People, th. People, th. People, th. People, th. People, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, their, the reality is that it is true. And so I don't approach, I've never approached TV and I'm not approaching my show, like, how can I speak for black people? Because I'm black every day. You know, I wake up every morning, it's a black woman, one word. People always say, you know, during the, theyrown, theyme. People always say, you know, during the, their, theyrowne, is, is, is, is, ti, is, is, is, ti, the, is, is, to, is, to, is, is, the, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I, I, I, and, I, and, I, and, I, I, and, and, I.e, I.e, I, I.e, I, I.e, I, I, I.e, I.e, I.e, I.e, I.e, I.e, I.e, I.e, I.e, I.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e. to. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the.a.a. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the, the, the, why do you always have to talk about race? Why are you trying to make it about race?

And the reality is that it is always about race for me. Every time I leave the house, people are making judgments about me, what I think, what I can do, what I know, who I am, what I believe, how much money I have, based get the concept that I'm from Nebraska. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience but not with zip recruiter. Zip recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast and right now you can try it for free at zip recruiter. to smartology identifies top talent for your

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I'm Tim Harford, host of The Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a the the the the to the the the to the the to the the to to the the the to the to the to the to to the to to to the of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a jerk. We'll examine stories of villains undone by their villainy and monstrous self-devaring egos,

and we'll delve into the extraordinary power of decency. We'll face mutiny on the vast Pacific Ocean, blaze a trail with a pioneering skyscraper, and dare to confront a formidable empire. The art of fairness on cautionary tales. Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to Catholic school my entire life. Somebody in New York. I was like, what? Nebraska? Yes, there are black people there.

Okay. Malcolm X is from Nebraska, y'all, y'all, y'all. So as I'm putting together the kind of show that I want to do, I want to do the too, I you want to do the news. I thought you were going to say you want to tell people your story. And I was like, okay, well, I want to do the news because... Did you do the head? Yeah, I did the head. Tell people your story.

And I thought that was, I think it's great that I'm surprising people because, the thrown, tho, the tho, tho, tho, the tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, I'm, tho, that, I'm, I'm, tho, tho, tho, told, told, told, told, told, I'm, told, to tell, to tell you to tell you to tell you're to tell you're to tell you're, to tell you're, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, the, the, the the president said today, where the vice president traveled. The news is also what is happening in media and politics. The news is also this thing that happened in North Omaha, Nebraska, predominantly African-American part of the city. The news is happening in Chicago, and it's not just a shooting, okay? The news is how Detroit is emerging as a new culture hub and fashion houses are going there and they've got this great opera opening on Malcolm X. Okay, Malcolm X is becoming an opera. Like, that is the news and I get to decide what the news is because it's my show.

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The fan who created the viral trailer, Morgan Cooper is now bringing his vision and raw, authentic storytelling to life as director, co-writer and executive producer. Belair is streaming now exclusively on Peacock. Go to Peacock TV.com to sign up. So Vlad, let's talk to that same point about assimilation. There's a book about ESPN and the oral history of the history of that network,

and they talk about when Stewart Scott first came to that network and how a lot of people at that network didn't like the way Stuart Scott went about doing sports highlights. Broadcast is very, you know, it's, it, to me, broadcast is the one medium of journalism that leaves the least amount of space for creative improvisation. And like it is the last, like it's the last place where they go, all right, you can do something a little different. Did you ever run into that pressure, or were you ever pressured by people to not be to not be the the to not be the the the the the the the the the the to not the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the last place where they go, all right, you can do something a little differently. Did you ever run into that pressure, or were you ever pressured by people

to not be the style of journalists that you are now? Not really. And I will say, first of all, just to jump off your last question and wrap it up with this one, I went to Africa. That's how much I realized that I was a black reporter. I raised my hand. Is anybody here, Nigerian American or from Nigeria? Yes. Okay. CNN sent me to West Africa to be, to Nigeria, to be their West Africa correspondent. And first of all, kudos to them

for recognizing that it was important to have a black person telling stories on the continent, which I think is important, although there are obviously white Africans as well. And for me, there was something beautiful about telling stories about humanity, the same stories that we tell here, car crash, you know, a kidnapping, an agriculture minister that wants to, you know, grow a, an agriculture minister that wants to, you know, you know, you know, grow a certain crop in a country and make that a number one export. Like, these are the things that in a normal world happen every single day, but in our country, they are tinged with this, you know, with the things that we're

talking about here, and it was so refreshing. Can I just tell you it was how refreshing it was just it was just it was just it was just it was just it was just to be to be a a to be a to be a the things that we're talking about here, and it was so refreshing. Can I just tell you it was how refreshing it was just to be a reporter? And never, at fact, and this goes to your question, one of the things that I think has always been, and I'm very aware of this, and I've talked about this and I've talked of the things that Yamesh and Simone are talking about don't affect me. Why? Because I'm a man, number one. And two, because I'm also a light skin black man.

And that has, you know, when you're from a multi-ethnic background, you're in these two different worlds where you are something, like, sometimes, probably the reason probably the reason that one dude is because, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, because, because, because, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, is, probably, probably, probably, is, is, probably, is, because, probably, is, is, because, because, is, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and, so, the, and, so, so, and, so, so, so, the, probably, probably, the, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, probably, so, so, probably, so, so, they were like, did you say that? Oh, I didn't know that, I didn't realize. I didn't realize that, oh, you know. And so, and even then when he said that, I remember thinking to myself, that could be one of the reasons that that happened. And so that is my privilege, that it's my lane of privilege that I have that well. So to the question that you asked Roy about, you know, having this sort of coatswitch, Stewart was a a trailblazer for everybody who's on

television, like point blank, but and from that I took that look, this is who I am. You know, when I joined CBS News, CBS News is the most traditional of the three legacy broadcast networks I think, and certainly it is buttoned up, but, to, to, that, but, but, but, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that I, that I, that I, that I, that I that I that I that I that I'm, that I'm that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I that I'm not that I'm not that I'm not that I'm not that I'm not thi, thi, that I'm not thra, the, thra, throo, thea, throoooo, thease, thro, the, thithree legacy broadcast networks, I think. And certainly, it is buttoned up, but I'm not that buttoned up when I'm in the field. When I'm reporting on terrorism, when I was in Ferguson, that was my first big story for CNN, for CBS. I thought it was weird to be in the streets, interviewing people protesting every night, and in a suit and tie. I was like, I don't, that doesn't th, that that that th, th, that doesn't that doesn't that doesn't that doesn't that doesn't that doesn't that doesn't that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's people protesting every night and in a suit and tie.

I was like, I don't, that doesn't make any sense to me. So I'm going to dress like I would when I'm doing any story that requires, you know, me to sort of be in the crowd, be with people, and to not stand apart from them. I don't want to stand apart from people. I don't want to go into a situation, even a dangerous one, with security. I want to be my authentic self, and CBS News has allowed me to do that. And so I think that Stewart and people that came before him did sort of open up that door a little bit to allow us to not be like, when I first got to work in news, people would say to me, when I got in a their, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the, the, to, to, and, and, and, and, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, and, and, and, to, the, and, and, the, the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they.... the the the the the the toe. toe. toe. toe. too. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. the news, people would say to me, when I got into the tracking booth, which is where you actually do your pieces and you're supposed to, you know,

they would say, hey, did you listen to that reporter, you know, who's white, who's from, you know, West Texas? Can you sound like that the. And eventually, what you do realize, to be to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, the to be, to be, to be, their, to be, to be, to be, to, to, to, to, the their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their..... their, their, their, their. their, their. their. their. their. the the too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, their. too, their. the their. me to sound like that person? Why wouldn't you want me to sound like me? And eventually what you do realize, to be fair, is that in the news business, they're always nervous about anybody that's new when you come into this news business, and they do kind of want you to behave a certain way that they know quote-unquote works. And I remember what black producer is saying to me, dude, dude, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thu, thu, thu, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, tho, thee, thee, thee, throooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, the, to me, dude, dude, don't worry about it. He's like, you know, you're gonna, they're gonna go in there and they're gonna say, can you please sound like that person?

Can you please sound like this person? Can you sound like? And then six months into the job, they're gonna be like to the next guy that comes in, can you sound like Vladicerararara, Okay, so to your point, Black, about having a black producer and being a black reporter, post-George Floyd, right? We are, we know what happened. Every corporation that we love black people. They found that birthday dollars, honey. They found them. They found D-E-N-I. We promise to hire all of the blacks that have done everything in this thing. That's a distinguished gentleman. That's distinguished. These black people come work for us and we love you.

And we want you to know how much we love. Look, we put Black Lives Matter in our window of our building. How much of that. You know that's how they sound, Yonish. How much of that corporate kumbaya that was happening in 2020, trickled down to the, to your your to your your your your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to your to corporate kumbaya that was happening in 2020 trickled down to your respective newsrooms for real and for positive? Have you all seen changes in your newsrooms with regards to staffing and the types of stories that you're allowed to cover? I will say for CBS News, I'm very proud of CBS. We have, first of all, our vice president

of news just became the first black, female network news president, Kim Godwin, Famu. Yes. Yes. Every time I'm around Famue people, I feel like I should have gone to Famu. Kim Godwin, who's now running a network and of of course, Rashida Jones at MSNBC, but at CBS News, specifically Terry Stewart, who's our executive vice president of News, is a black woman. Ingrid Siphreen Matthews, who is in charge of all of news gathering for CBS News is afrolatina. The producer of my show, the CBS Mornings, Sean Thomas, is a black woman, and you've got Gail

King on our air, you've got Jericho Duncan, you've got Michelle Miller, you've got me, you've got Jeff Pegas in Washington, Wijia Jang covers the White House. I feel like we are one of the most incredibly diverse newsrooms in America. And can it be better? Of course, it can always be better, but there's a cognizant, there's an understanding that people like us, like myself, like Uyja, like Michelle, like Jerika, like Gail, that we matter and our perspective is integral to the jobs that we do as journalists for CBS News. So I'm very proud of that. I would echo, you know, I'm new to MSNBC. I just, I became a member of the family

in January and that was through the leadership of Rashida Jones, MSNBC network president. And Rashida came up through the ranks. You know, she knows how to produce a show, she know how to line produce. She's an executive now with the perspective of so many various folks in the newsroom and an executive that knows that there are lots of people that watch her network and because there are a number of different MSNBC viewers, this is a place where you can go and get many things. She's investing in in streaming and various voices. I mean, Amin Moyadine has a show. When's the last time you heard somebody named Aiman Moyadine with a show on television and on streaming, she found and hired excellent great talent like myself folks like Yemish okay then coached Mish and brought the great Yemish over she got two jobs two jobs

okay she hosts a showhead as a Washington correspondent Joy Reed is in prime time there's a black woman who has a show in prime time that people watch Tiffany Cross has a show now on weekends like Jonathan Capehart hosts a show the Sunday show on Sundays. Rashida Jones did that and so I would just say that I think MS. And let's not forget I mean on NBC News it's less to hope that people are watching at night when they're watching their nightly news channels. So I agree with Vlad. It can always be better, but there have been intentional. People have to be intentional about seeing and hearing people both in front of and behind the camera. And I think

that's why I'm so excited to be a part of MSNBC and the NBC Universal Family because I feel and see that every day. Like there is their resources being put into talent to make sure that they are successful. So, you mean, does it feel like lip service at all, you know, where you are on your side? It seems like, like, speak to the importance, I guess, of not just black people in front of the camera, but black people in the leadership and decision-making positions that are able to put all of those names that she aforementioned, in where they can flourish. I mean I think it diversity has to be not just getting people on the entry level it has to be promoting people it has to be

paying people right and I think that we have seen those changes and I think honestly they started happening after President Obama was elected. After President Obama was elected almost every network said wait where is the black correspondent to cover the black president at the White House? I was not there, but I can talk to, I talk to older black reporters, and a lot of people got to come up off of Obama. So I think that if you really think about it, that's really started because people were like, oh wait, how do we cover this guy like Barack Hussein Obama where are the black people and and that's just sort of what happened. Hey the meeting they had a meeting and I was just like listen we got to get a

black one because he's black you'll talk to the black ones and we'll get better questions answered. Yes I think that's exactly what you're making an important point because I mean you're making an important point I used to work at the White House I used to work for th. that th. th. th. that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I to th. I th. I th. I to th. I th. I th. I to the the that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just that's just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the to the to the to th. I to to th. I the the. I the the. I the. I the the. I the the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I thto work at the White House. I used to work for the vice president. I was her spokesperson. And I can tell you that not only at the White House, but on these campaigns, post-President Obama, it's like, oh, we need to do a meeting with the black press. We need to, what are we doing on black press? And I, it was so important to tha, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was so to to to to, it was, it was, it was, to be, I, to, I, to, to, to, to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I.. the. the. the. the. the. the. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. so important to me that folks are not talked

they're you're talking about reporters who are also black like when you're calling you mean she's not calling the black press you are calling a reporter who is also black yeah and I will say I think the thing that makes me a little nervous is that we are living in a country where we had this inflection point after George Floyd and we had this quote-on quote you were talking about the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their I th. I was th. I was th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tr tr truth is is. I was. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. You were talking about sort of the crazy conversations that we were having during Trump. We had those crazy post-racial society conversations where I was like, I'm sorry, I walked down the street and I'm still black.

What post-racial society can we ever even, like why is that even a phrase that was ever even invented? So I think that I'm a little worried about whether or not we just wea wen wen wen wen wen, we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just we just th th th, and then we have reconstruction in KKK. We, George Floyd gets strangled and murdered, and we have a conversation about diversity, and then critical raf theory happens and we're banning books. I'm really kind of still watching, sort of what America does. But America historically has always done this thing where we think we're interested in diversity.

Then when we really learned about what America was in 1619 we're like we don't want to watch we don't we don't want to watch that we don't want to learn about that and that's tough you know I think that um what's also been interesting to me is we all talked about how our newsrooms are incredibly diverse now but when I got into the news business it's still and white and that just sort of speaks to how the change has happened, you know, very rapidly in the last, you know, you know, the last, you know, my mentor, Anderson Cooper, you know, I don't, when I got into the news business, I didn't know any, I'd watch people, I knew, I'd

watched Ed Bradley, I'd watched Byron Pitts and and people that I admired, Charlene Hunter Galt, but I didn't really know anybody like Anderson, who was black. And now, of course, you know plenty of people that have picked up his mantle, the kind of reporting that he does and have run with it, but, but you know, he, you know, for me to get my foot in the door, if I'd come across a Kim Godwin then, who knows, right? But, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, but I didn't, for me to get my foot in the door, if I'd come across a Kim Godwin then, who knows, right? But I didn't. I came up, but luckily I came across a guy who was like,

hey, I think this kid has what it takes, and helped me like launch my career. And I cannot imagine as somebody who admired, I mean, I adored Ed Bradley. I wanted to be Ed Bradley, or Gordon Parks, told, told, told, told, told, told, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, too, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, themue, themue, themue, the the the the the the the the the they...... too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too I adored Ed Bradley. I wanted to be Ed Bradley, or Gordon Parks. Those are my two guys. I want either make films like Gordon Park did, or be like Ed Bradley. And I can't imagine what it was like for Ed to be in the newsroom

in the 1960s and the 1970s when he was the only one. I spoke to Connie Chung about what it was like to be the only Asian woman. Yeah, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th.... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to th. to th. th. to to th. th. th. th. th. to, I, I, I, I, I, to Connie Chung about what it was like to be the only Asian woman. Yeah, she, you know, she had some, Connie has some great stories if you ever want, you know, she's writing a book but I spoke to her about what it was like and she actually had insights because she knew Ed back in the day, back in the early 1970s in the late 1960s when she was just a young reporter. There's a very famous photo. It's of Connie Chongue. She's only probably in her 20s, and she's covering Watergate. My wife, who's Asian American, has this photo as like her background, her wallpaper. It's this photo of all these white men in ties and cigars and cigarettes, and they're all on the phone and they're hustling. It's during the watergate hearings. And right in the middle of the room is a young Connie Chung, like, looking up, like, like,

and you, Google this photo and see if you, you want to know our mood sometimes, if that is the mood, right? Because it's like you're surrounded by a lot of these people and you're the only one sometimes and that's changing, but that's how you sometimes feel. And that's why those, those people that came with, like your dad, Roy, I cannot imagine what it would have been like to try to be the only one and to try to raise your hand and say to a network president or to an executive producer, this is the story that I think we should cover and have them say, yeah, it seems like kind of a black thing, like an urban thing. used to tell me that's part of why he always wanted to be out in the field so he wouldn't have to put up with stuff in the newsroom. He was like, you know

what, just send me to the civil rights rather. I'd rather get beat to just let me go sit me and deal with you. I'd rather take a billy club to the head than have to do it. My father that their father was embedded with black platoons in Vietnam that were dealing with... He says, send me to Vietnam on the front lines with a tape coy. I would rather cover that than be in this room with you. Wow. That says everything. I mean, if that says it all, we need to put that on a t-shirt. I think, I think the point that Vlad made is an important one in that that it it it it it it it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that it is not that is not that it is not that is not that is not that is not that is not that is not that is not that is not that is not that says that says that says that says that says that says that says that says that is not says that is not says that is not that is not that is not that is not that is not that is not that is not th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. the the thi. the the that's thi. the the. that's that's the. that's that's that's that's that's thi. to to to the point that Vlad made is an important one in that it is not just on black people and people of color, that it's going to take intersectional work. Like white people in newsrooms have to want to and do want to see the value and see the changing landscape and be invested and be a part of that.

You know, everybody that works on my team as I'm building my show at MSNBC is not black. You know, I have, I've had white mentors that gave me opportunities and chances. Amy and Tell us at CNN is the person that how I first got a contract, and I probably wouldn't be on anybody's radar to have worked on more presidential campaigns, let alone have a show at MSNBC if that white woman over there

didn't think that you know maybe I was talented. But it was like that my lead that also at MSNBC way back when, who a black woman who invested. So I think we have to, I think a lot of times folks get into these, oh if it ain't, it, all black, and yeah you know we love a little all black, we but the reality is th, I th, I th, I th, I is th, I the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world is the world the world the world the world, I the world, I the world, I the world, I thi, I thi, I that that that that that that that that that thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi thi, I thi, it, all black everything. And yeah, you know, we love all black. We love all black. But the reality is the world that we live in is not all black. And the problem is that all black. If you're gonna fix an issue, I think about what Tony Morrison said, oh my God, I mean, I love Tony Morrison.

I can't believe they're banning her books. I can't even talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk talk tak about tak about tak about tak about tak about tak about tak about tak about tak about tak about tak about talks about the fact that if there, if white people in particular, if they can only be tall, if you're kneeling, if someone else is kneeling, then the problem is you, not black people. And I think that it has to be, it will never be people of color fixing the issues in America. It will always have to be an interracial because the problem is interracial. And that to me is what makes me nervous, frankly. I think I'm optimistic, yes, it's great to see all these voices and leadership, but I'm still thinking about the fact that we live in America, and America always has a way

to reinvent racism, always has a way to figure out how to just change the rules on everybody. And I just, I don't know. How do y'all deal with the stress of all of this? Like, here's a quicker question for you, Yemish. You can tell the truth. It's just you and me up here. Do you read your Twitter mentions? I sometimes read them. I sometimes read them. Because, okay, so there are two things. I am a reporter who is constantly looking for stories and I've found stories on Twitter before. I've also found people who have given me sort of feedback that I've found to be helpful. I think that Twitter has increasingly, I think over the pandemic,

gotten to be, especially because most of my social media Twitter, has gotten to me a more angry kind of just place where I feel like everybody has PTSD because we've been living through this pandemic that just threw our whole lives up and we're all walking around like we're okay because we zoomed our way through the problem, but everyone's kind of on edge in reality and I think that that Twitter has become a little bit more or less of a place that I want to be in terms of like checking my mentions. I do think if I'm honest like black Twitter to me I look at black Twitter and I think okay I don't want to be eaten alive so like I want to make sure that I'm trying to do something that is that it that feels credible but it's also problematic because sometimes black Twitter can

be really cruel. Sometimes you say something and people come at you and you're like, okay, well, that's not really what I, what I, that wasn't the intention of what I said. And I've seen other people sort of be really, really mean to other people in the spirit of sort of the black Twitter crowd thinking. I think that that can be, it can be scary, frankly. I would say that the way that I deal with stress is that I don't get too low off the hate that I get from people. I don't try to let it impact what I think too much because for me I really am trying to deal with the people who I know love me. So for me what COVID did was really help me understand who I want around me and understand who I trust and who feel safe and my husband stuck in, so he couldn't come today, sadly, for all sorts of reasons that I won't get into.

But my husband, he, to me, finding love was incredible. And having someone to, frankly, be able to vet to, to be able to be loved on, to be able to talk about your day. He's a journalist too, covering Loudoun County, which of course now is like a crazy county. But that's a county where critical race theory and they're doing all sorts of stuff with transgender rights. And I think that to be able to have someone who really kind of understands storytelling and understands the stresses of journalism has just been sort of incredible to me. And then I think I have a lot of friends and a lot of friends from different races, but black women in particular, they show up for me in ways that I just, to this day, I think really give me goosebumps.

And I think, you know, we're talking about black media, but I have friends that are Wall Street bankers, who are nurses, who are makeup artists, and we all have the same sort of lived experiences, which is that what we think is an issue in media and black people. It's really an issue in America. The micro-aggressions, the people not, you're being uncomfortable because you don't look the way that traditionally people looked, whether you were working at a bank

or whether you're in media. The thing that, you know, I think it can be really easy to feel personalized, where your supervisor tells, and now you're training people who don't know more than you. Oh, okay, well, this isn't just media. This isn't just sort of one way. It's how the country works. And that to me is why maybe I'm the pessimistic kind of thiii, but I think that's what makes me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous me nervous thr-a. thi. that's what thi. thi. that's what makes thi. thi. thi. that's what makes thi. that's thi. that's thi. thi. that's thi. thi. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th realistic. You're pragmatic. Black people are nothing if not pragmatic. Okay? It is understanding the reality of what it is, but still having the ability to hope for what can be.

The vice president talks about the ability to see what can be and burden by what has been. That is that is the essence of this right here. So then what's your stress relief? Like what do you do after a long day of just dealing with race and all of this craziness and getting talked too crazy? And then you gotta go cover crazy because the thing with the Daily Show that's frustrating, and I talk to the other correspondence about it is that to find the joke, you must consume 10 to 15 terrible stories. You have to read all of the, do you read the the the the the their, to find, their, the joke, the joke, their, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, th, th, tho, the, the, the, to, and, and, and, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, tho, and, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, so. So, so. So, so. So, so. So, so.colate, some, some, some, some, some, some.ca.ca.ca.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. to.a. to. to. to.. You have to read all of the, do you read the national paper,

you read two local papers, and you find all of the stuff that's divisive that everybody's arguing about. And somewhere in there is one little nugget of a joke that you dust it off. And you email it up to Trevor and the producer. They go, that's funny, but we're doing a different direction today. Like, oh, my God. So, Flag, Simone, what do you all do to deal with that stress?

Like, how do you keep this hearing? I mean, I go to the nail shop. The people know I love my nails, honey. I go to the nail shop, I'll take two, three hours. My fiancee tell you, you just won't find. I agree with Demiche, like I'm getting married this summer, very excited. Yes, yes, yes, yes. He is fine. And I think the pandemic was the best thing.

So are you, Simone. So are you. So are you. So are you. I think the pandemic was the best thing to happen. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at Zip Recruiter's smart technology identifies top talent for your roles quickly. Immediately after you post your job,

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But is that really true? I'm Tim Harford, host of the Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a jerk. We'll examine stories of villains undone by their villainy, and monstrous self-devaring egos, and we'll delve into the extraordinary power of decency. We'll face mutiny on the vast Pacific Ocean, blaze a trail with a pioneering skyscraper, and dare to confront a formidable empire.

The Art of Fairness on cautionary tales. Listen on the IHart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. To us, because it was just a crazy time for me, professionally, for both of us actually. And we could unwind, like, when I felt like the people were not being fair to me, and my, and, and whether at work or on the internet, like, he, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, I, I felt like the people were not being fair to me in my and and it whether at work on the internet like he I could talk to him about it and he would call balls and strikes he'd be he say if it's effed up it's effed up or you know what you actually need thicker

skin and we go and we could cry in a closet and then let's go so I that is what has been helpful for me. I think for me, you know, you said something interesting. Two things, Roy. One, you talked about the death of nuance. And that's where I feel we have, where we've come in the last four or five years, that there's very little nuance in our interactions with each other. And that is what I love most about my job, about the people that I interact with on a regular basis, and the point that you made about searching for that one little funny nugget that

is how you're going to build out a joke, that's what I do with people. I know that there are people that, you know, that I'm not unaware that there are terrible people out there. But one of the reasons I became a journalist, one of the reasons I gave up a thm. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the th. th. th. th. th. the th. thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the thi, the the thi, the the the thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeate. thi. the. the. rible people out there. But one of the reasons I became a journalist, one of the reasons I gave up a career to start at the very bottom as an intern when I was, you know, almost 40 years old. I will know Lab was very successful Wall Street man, okay? You know, I wasn't like a hedge fun guy, but I was doing okay for myself, but you know, the reason is I really, really, really, really get off on talking talking talk talk to to to to to to to to to to to to the to their their their the, the reason is I really, really, really get off on talking to people of all stripes, of all traditions and backgrounds, and that brings me immense joy. I love interacting with people. I love hearing their stories. I love sharing my stories.

I love finding that commonality. That is what drives my journalism. And what Twitter does is it removes all of that. So that, you know, you say one, like I told you on that call that I, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you th, you th, th, thripe, thripe, th, th, th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of th, of, of th, of th, of th, of th, of, of, of, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, you, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thrie, thrie, thrie, thrie, thrie, thrie, thriea, thriea, thriea, to to to thriea, to to to to thripe, thripe, thripe, th. So that, you know, you say one, like I told you on that call that I, you know, I once, you guys will laugh at this, I was once, you know, you know, on TV as you guys know, sometimes they're like, we gotta go, we gotta go, the producers will get in your ear, we're going to commercial, it's a hard wall. So I was doing a story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story and I and I and I and I was talking story story story story story story story. I said, you know, and then, this happened to Tupac Shaker. All right, got to go. All of a sudden, right, this dude right here was like, what? That's exactly what happened.

All of a sudden, the rapper name, who? Yeah, exactly. Twitter got all like crazy. Like, my mentions blew up. This dude, like, who the hell? talking, like, tuk, their. the. the. the. the, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the.. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the newsroom came up to my office, Vlad. And I was like, guys, I know. It was a mistake. It was like a twist of the tongue. And people were like all mad as if I somehow, you revoking your black card, Vlad, you can't

be. I was like, I'm sorry. Like, can we just, like, can we not even flub our words without the entire world coming down on you because if you sit down and talk to me you know that I know who Tupac is and I got him on rotation on my Spotify but like everybody thought like oh yeah of course it's because he grew up in a white school like you know like and it was like I'd so I get off on that that's what relieves my stress. This podcast is supported by FX's Atlanta returns March 24th on FX stream on Hulu. Europe hits different. Atlanta season 3 takes Paper Boy, Earn, Van, and Darius across the pond,

and they diving deep with new success, new connections, and new weird shit. FX's Atlanta premieres March 24th on FX, stream on Hulu. This episode is brought to you by HP. When you're working apart from your team, feeling connected can be a challenge. Presenting HP Presence, a more thoughtful, human collaboration technology. With enhanced audio and video features, you can experience more genuine collaboration and feel more connected. Be in the room from any room with HP presence.

Learn more at HP.com.s. Presence. We're going to go now to some questions here for myself by audience before we wrap up here. Here's one. This is from an anonymous person. Is there an example of a story you pitched that you were passionate about that got shut down? I'm very passionate about the plight of sexual and domestic violence against women of color in this country and and you know when I was first starting out I there we were coming across we were coming up to the anniversary of the Central Park Jogger,

the night that she was brutally assaulted in Central Park. And I was still in journalism school. I was still in grad school. And I wanted to do this story, and I thought if I could do a really, really good pitch in J-Schooler, I can maybe pitch it to CNN, and maybe they would do it as a dot-com story. Because what I decided to do is rather than look back at Trish Amile, the Solomon Brothers banker who was who was sexually assaulted, I went and found what other women in New York City that very week also got sexually assaulted

brutally like Trish Amile and I found that there were five women who had suffered. One woman was thrown off the roof of a building in New York City. She survived, miraculously. And I went and looked for those press clippings. There was not one mention on television, of course. And only in the New York Times was there in the Metro section where there are a couple of brief, like, you know, they have those like Metro updates, this is what happened in this part of the city. And so I went back and I interviewed people who remembered those incidents, you know, in the community, and we went back and

we told that story and then we took it from Trish Amile and then we said, okay, these five women and then we started a whole sort of running commentary on the number of black women that have gone missing over the last couple of years. And no one knows their, that was the name of the piece, no one knows their name. Right, because nobody knew the names of these women except the loved ones who are still mourning them. And I did the piece and I was very proud of it. And I showed it to some people, you know, and I showed it to some people, you know, and in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, the news, the news, the news, the news, the news, the news, the news, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, their, their name, their name, their name, their name, their name, the their name, the the the their name, their name, their their their, no, no, no, the newsroom outside of school. And they were like, this is a great journalism school piece. This is a great journalism school piece. And I get it.

I absolutely get it. I mean, it's like, first of all, newsrooms will tell you we don't like to do memorial pieces. That's absolutely true. So there is some validity to what they were saying. But the fact that we are still at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point at a point where we are often not telling the stories of these victims in the same way that we tell the stories of other victims is something that, you know, I think is difficult to, to, it's a hurdle, it's a challenge.

They shut you down. Tell me by the time they shut you down. I mean, you asked that question and I was like, I'm sure I have a running list of stories that have been shut down. I mean you asked that question and I was like I'm sure I have a running list of stories that have been shut down. I mean so many stories have been shut down especially because I remember when I was first starting out I wouldn't even put that I spoke Haitian Creole on my resume because I didn't think anyone cared. Every job that I've been to I've always pitched stories about Haiti and I've luckily been able to always get a couple stories in but it's th th th th th th th th th the the th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their, their, th. I'm th. I'm their, th. I's th. I'm th. I'm they's they's they's they's they's, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I th. th. th. th. I I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's their, I's their, I's their, I'm their, they. I'm they. I'm they. I'm they. they. they. they. I'm they. I'm they. I'm they. I'm their, I'm their, and I've luckily been able to always get a couple stories in, but it's always been, oh wait, there's an earthquake,

let's do Haiti now, or oh my god, the president was assassinated, now we really care. Or, oh my god, those black immigrants, they're getting whipped on the border, and now we're gonna go, and I think that I've always just tried to keep an eye an to keep an to keep an to keep an the eye to keep an the eye to keep an eye the eye to keep an eye to keep an eye eye eye eye eye to keep an eye to keep an eye eye eye eye eye. Can I just say, Yemish? But can I just say one thing about that? When I first met Anderson, it was, I sat in his office November of 2009. And we were talking about Haiti, because he has, he is long before the earthquake, been a champion for Haiti.

And I said to him, yeah, I'd like to pitch some stories on Haiti. And I even I can't get them on the air, right right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, toe.a, toa, toe.a, toa, toa, toa, toe.a, to me, to, to, to, to, I'm And I even I can't get them on the air, right? And this was like two months before the earthquake. So I bring that up because we sat back, we like both of us like sort of lean back in our chairs and we're like, yeah man, like nobody ever wants to do a story on Haiti unless something really horrible happens. And then two months later, the earthquake so I to toub to try and to to to to to to to to to to to that. to to that. that. to be to be that. to be to be to be that. to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to me to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the try. try. try. the. thea. try. thea. thea. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. We the air. I would say Haiti stories are definitely top of mind to me when I think about that. I also think stories about sort of emerging political stories surrounding black people. So I remember this story that I wanted to do in 2016,

and I was working with another black reporter. And I don't think I'm portraying anything here, which is that we were doing a story about black people not being that excited about Hillary Clinton for a number of reasons. And that story basically never got written. And I was kind of like, hey, we should really write this story. Like, we have black donors, there's an issue here, and it just like never got written. And I think that like- It's crazy, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, like, like, like, like, hey, like, hey, like, like, hey, hey, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, hey, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th........... that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th.. that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's that's that, that, that, that, that's an issue here and it just like never got written and I think that like crazy and someone else wrote the story like girl I mean here like like don't even get me started the story I'm quoting yeah but after after Hillary last I was like

oh my god how did we not know this it's like y'all we've been new that black people had some some issues with Hillary and by the way some of them were Haitian in Miami, which is a state she needed to win. And Haitians in Miami were looking at her like, what did you do with the aid organization? Your brother's making millions of dollars, getting diamonds in Haiti. What are you talking about?

So they were just, they were a lot, you know what? I'm so bitter about that. So th you th you that, so that, I that, I that, I that, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm, to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's, to to to to to to to to to to to to stop. So then to that point that that ties perfectly into another question from another anonymous and Simone I want you to start with this one because you've worked with politicians of differing races. Anonymous person asks, what do you think of the way the media covers politicians? Is there a double standard and how they cover black politicians? There is a double standard in how they cover the first woman, the first woman of color, the first black woman of South Asian descent who is the vice president of the United States of America.

That's for damn sure. Okay, I spent, I spent the last year of my life blocking and tackling verbally on the phone with people every single day. I used to joke with folks that I had the worst job in the White House because, because, and I said I had the worst job, actually I had the best job in the White House, but I would joke with the reporters that I had the worst job because I can't just, I couldn't just pitch a story. I got to explain to you why what what I am pitching is true. I can't just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just to just the the to the the to the to the to the to to the thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I to to to thi. I'm toldld. I told. I to bea. I to bea. I to bea. I to bea. I to bea. I to bea. I'm to be to be the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. I'm, I'm the thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm toe. I'm thi. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toe. I toe. I thi. I'm true. I can't just say, you know what, the vice president is a governing partner to the president.

People are like, okay, but how? Tell me how? Like, what does she actually do every day? Were you asking what Mike Pence did every day? That's my question to you. You know, I will never forget that. So we went to Guatemala. to Guatemala, theymea, thi and th and th and th and I thoan, thoan, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the the tho, the the the the the the tho, tho, the the the the the the tho, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho. tho, tho. tho. toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. to. to. te president. She did a trip to Guatemala and Mexico. And while she was in Guatemala, she did an interview with Lester Holt.

And everyone has seen this interview with Lester Holt. Actually, no, everyone has seen the clip from the interview with Lester the clip from the interview. People probably didn't see the actual interview. But there's a moment in the interview, where Lester isto the border? And he asked about seven or eight times, and the eighth time, she says, well, I haven't been to Europe either. So, okay. Do you have any plans to visit the border?

I'm here in Guatemala today at some point. You know, we are going to the border. We've been to the border. We are going to the border. We've been to the border. We've been to the border. You haven't been to the border. And I haven't been to Europe. And I mean, I don't, I don't understand the point that you're making. That is the clip that I, you know, when I wake up the next morning, it's the clip that's everywhere. Wasn't a great clip. We come back from the trip, and a week, a week, and a week, a week, and a week, and a week, a week, and a week, and a week, to, to, tha, to, to, tha, and a to, tha, too, to, tho, tho, too, too, the, tho, and a thi, I, I, the, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, the, the, the, I'm, th. th. th. And, I'm not, I'm tha. And, I'm not, I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm're doing a story about the fallout from the terrible trip and I say oh you mean the fallout from the moment in the interview because we just have to put it in context it was a moment in the interview it wasn't a bad trip like there was

a diplomatic success so I'm putting my spin on it because it was a diplomatic success and this reporter says you know so she so so so so so so so so so so so so so he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he the he the the th so th so th so th is th is the th. th. thi thi thi. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th is th is th is th is th is th is th is the. I the. I the. I theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeo. I try. I try. I try. I try. I thining now? And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I said, I worked for President Joe Biden for two years on the campaign trail, okay? I answered question after question about gaffs, and Joe Biden and his gaffs, and I pushed back on him. And not one, one point that any of these reporters asked me was that Joe Biden, candidate Joe Biden, going to get media training. Why are you asking me is this black woman who was a twice-eleciless district attorney, twice-elected

attorney general of the largest department of justice, only second to the department of justice of United States of America, a former United States Senator and the vice president of America get media training? Do you think that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th.. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th, why th, why th, why th, why th, why th... I th. I thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, why thi, thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. Why thi. Why thi. Why thi. Do you think that's an appropriate question to be asking me? He was like, well I mean I thought it was until we did. It's crazy. It's crazy to me. It is crazy and I fundamentally believe that women, women period, but also women of color specifically are covered differently because people are not used to seeing women of color, especially black women in leadership positions. It is just something fundamentally, like it's like, their mind got to do a shift. It's just like, hmm, but what is really happening in there? And it's like, it is what I say it is?

Like, I'm not lying. What? I mean, you just saw that couple of what, less than a week, ten days ago, people, what was bubbling under the surface. The first black woman to be nominated to the Supreme Court of the United States, people were asking, have you seen her law school entrance exams? Crazy! I need to see her middle school transcript. We can't be. Crazy, what was her else that? Just to be clear, people were also asking, was was Kamala Harris eligible to be vice president? There was a little birtherism 2. Right. We just kind of slapped it down real hard. But it was, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. throoooo. th. th. th. th throoooo. th. th. th. th. th.led to the service and we just kind of slapped it down real hard. But it was bubbling. It was like we can have legitimate questions about all sorts of things, but that was a question

that was being asked of the Vice President of the United States. Was she born in this country? Yeah, she's from Oakland! What? Okay, so let's end on the last question that I think, well, that I think, th is will will will will will will will will will will will will will will will will will the the the the the cheering is the future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty. It's in the Bible, that's third Corinthians. All right, some of y'all know that ain't in the Bible. Okay. The heathens like, is that in the Bible? No. Somebody just Google third Corinthians.

Dominique asked what I think is a very, very solid question for us to end on. And it's what advice do you have for up and coming black and other bypoc creators starting out or transitioning into journalism. Because I'm sure there's rules in journalism that you learned 20, whatever years ago, that don't apply now. So how has the job changed and what advice would you give to these people entering a field that honestly is ever evolving? The rules are ever changed.

There isn't much that I learned at FamU and O1 that really applies today other than the basics of just getting the information. But what advice would you all have to newbies? I would say, first, I think the basic advice from FamU and 01 is still the advice, get the stories right, do good journalism. That, I mean, that's the basics. You have to know the basics.

I think mentorship is not just trying to get a hold of the local journalists in your area. Talk to the person two years older than you who graduated from your college and now as an intern or an entry-level reporter. Some of my best mentors are people who know what the industry is looking for right now. So I think we talk about mentorship but it doesn't have to be Oprah. It could be anybody that is doing the same. Oprah, if you are listening, I would love for you to be a member. Oprah, me too now. If you're gonna call you if I'd like to come to the meeting.

If I was going to put that out there and let Jesus take care of it. But I will say that, and I would say the third thing is, the best advice that I got from one of my mentors, the great Gwen Eiffel, to to, who was a black woman who made history in 1999 on Washington Week, by becoming the first black woman to host her own nationally televised news program in Washington Week. She told me to be myself, and I walked up to her one day, and I was very nervous, and I should tell you, I met her through the hairdresser because we're black woman, and where else would you mean? Right? But I watched up to her one day and I was nervous and I couldn't remember if she knew who I was and I said, hi my name's yamish, but you can

call me Mish because I knew my name was always sort of this name that people got wrong and she said no don't let people nickname you. And it's it's stuck with me to my core because what she was saying, to go, th what th what th what th what th what th what th. th. th. th. th th th th thi th th thi thi thi thi thi thi's thi's thi's thi's thin is thin, thin's thi's to to to the thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th. th th. th th. th. th. th. the the thin is their their their thin is thin is, the their thin, the thin, the the ty. thin, the tha the. thin, the. the. thi thi to thi thi thi is the is to recognize yourself when you get there. Don't just sell everything about you, and then you look up and it's like, yeah, I'm an anchor and I got my own show, but actually I look more like Lauren London than Yamech, even though we don't look alike, but I don't want to, since she's a beautiful woman, but what I don't want is to look of let people sort of make me into something that I'm not.

I want to be exactly who I am and that's being intentional and I was listening to a podcast with Lauren London which is why she's on my mind because she was just talking about the fact that life will chin check you, life will do all sorts of stuff to you, but you have to in some ways and she said this and it was so powerful and I love Lauren Lennon. She talked about being in a spirit of celebration and meaning that when you see people getting stuff being a spirit of celebration for them you see a snapshot of someone's life and you think why don't I have my own show or why don't I have why am I not a correspondent? It's like what will be yours and be very intentional about what you're going after but don't lose yourself and and and be backwards and to

figure out all these different things like I said people told me I was too pretty I was probably too big and too black for some people to to put me around TV. Girl now you host in Washington Week honey. And I was like okay me whatever. My mother I mean my to me what I mean one of my best mentors is my mother who is like to thi. to I tho thin thin thin thin thin thin thin no thin no thin no thin no thin no thin no the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too too to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to So I think for me it's it's that. It's really, so I think if you have those things which is the basics first and then mentorship and not losing yourself then you'll be on your way. My message is a little darker actually even though you said you want to end on LAI. I know. My message is for people who want to be journalists specifically, and specifically

I guess this is maybe geared to broadcast journalism, don't do this job because you want to be on television, or you want to have a brand, or you want to elevate your profile. This job, no matter what beat you cover, whether it's entertainment or it's Washington or you cover wars, it is incredibly, there are journalists being killed all over the world who do this job. I take it very, very seriously. I know that generally on the feature pieces that I do,

I'm fun and I'm bubbly and, you know, and I do love everybody. That's true, but you know, I've seen some stuff in my years as a reporter around the world that I'll never forget I was in Sierra Leone and I was getting ready to interview the president there and his press secretary said, you know you reporters, even the typewriter. We don't have typewriters anymore but he said your typewriter is your AK-47. And th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I' thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm their thi. I's thi. I'm the typewriter. We don't have typewriters anymore, but he said your typewriter is your AK-47. And it stuck with me because that is how the people with power see what we do. I don't care if you are covering the red carpet at the Academy Awards or you're sitting and taking direct questions or a line of fire from the President of the United States.

This is a job that carries with an enormous responsibility. And if you can see yourself fitting in that and holding up that mantle and doing all the things that Yemich said, the truth and the accuracy, that's important, but also just taking it seriously for what it is, which is a job that you must be prepared to lose your life for in the pursuit of truth and in the pursuit of the story that you're trying to tell, especially if you're holding people in power accountable. That is what we do at all levels,

whether you're a producer, your production assistant, you're an anchor correspondent. Roy, what you guys do on the daily show, Simone, what you're about to do at MSNBC, that is what's happened now because of the rise of social media and the ubiquity of information and different platforms where people can elevate their brand, you start to see a little bit of that creeping, where people are more focused on how they look, and how they dress and the stuff that they wear, and that's cool. I'm fine with that. But to never let it diminish what we do because it's the only job. the the the on, the only the only the only the only thuuii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the the, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.e, thi.e, thi.e, they.e. they. they. their, they. their, their, the. But to never let it diminish what we do,

because it's the only job that specifically was put into the Constitution of the United States of America, and they did that for a purpose. So I don't want to be. I'm going to build off of what Vlad said, because I think it is really important, as someone who is making the full-time transition, I think, that that that that that that that that that that that that that thi, that that thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and that thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, thi, thi, and I thi, and I thi, and thi, and the the the the the the their their, and their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, their, their, their, their, their, the full-time transition, I often think about being sure that I am authentic and I tell the truth and that you do the work. And so I go to teleprompter prep.

You know, Yamish walked back, passed my office the other day and I was like, girl, I'm practicing on the computer. I'm going to be in the studio next week. So that when, on May 7th, when you, when you, when you, when you you you you, when you you, when you th, when you th, when you th, when you th, when you th, when you th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, I th, I th, I th, I th. I th. I th, I thi. I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th. I th. I th. I that that that that theeea. thea. thea. I thea. thea. I thea. I tho. I thea. I at 4 p.m., you're going to say, damn, that girl knows how to read that teleprometer, hmm, she really understood the back of that story, or wow, she really threw the commercial so effortlessly, or oh, she really thought about this segment. Like I'm going to do the work. And there's always going to be someone, a mentor, the to someone, to be, thaker, to be, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. they. they. they. they. they, they, their, and, and their, their, their, and then, and their, and their, and their, and then, and she's, and she's, and she's, and she's, and she's, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm. their, hmm, hmm, hmm. the they. the the the the the the the the the the the the too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. the the the the the the the th. the th. tld me this once. There's always going to be somebody better than you, somebody smarter than you, somebody faster than you, somebody prettier than you, who went to a better school who has more money. But you control if someone is able to outwork you. And there's one thing about me, you're not going to out work me. I get up early and I will stay up late. I will do the research myself. I will download the own packet. I will go out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out, I their their their their, I their, I their, I their, I will their, I their, I their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, control control, their, control, control, control, their, control, control, control, their, control, their, control, their, their, their, their, their, their, the phone and ask the questions because I want to know. And I think that people that want to be in the media space, I used to hate when I would do college campuses

and young people will come up to me and they say, I want to be a commentator like you. And I was like, oh, no, honey, I have expertise. I have a expertise. I have a political, I have a political, I have a political, I have a political, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I to hate, I, I to hate, I, I, I, I, I to hate, I, I, I, I, I, I, I to hate, I, I, I, I, I, I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to, to to to paying me to commentate because I know what I'm talking about. I've worked 15 campaigns before I worked my first presidential. I've worked races all across the country from governor's races to things on reservations to mayoral races to state legislative races and I've worked three two presidential campaigns and got the current president United States elected.

Okay, I work for the first black woman to sit the most powerful black woman I would argue in the world. So I have an expertise. So people who are like, I want to be on TV. What is your expertise, honey? You need to get expertise and then someone will pay you for your expertise to talk about it. But some of y'all don't got no expertise. I'm just being finding. Some of y'all don't got an expertise.

So then you hoppi. You hopping on, everybody got a podcast now, Roy. They like this podcast, you know, everybody, they podcasting out their garages with their home boys and home girls, and y'all don't have no expertise. You better get an expertise. You better do the work. Why do I want to hear from you? The thing about my show is I want to only talk? That there is nobody like Simone. There's nobody like Yemiche. And you hear oftentimes people say,

well, I want to be a little bit like Oprah with a little bit of Lester Holt thrown in there and funny like Trevor. And I always say, like, I think that when I was younger, I probably thought that way, because you look at people that to say, well, I'm I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I to I'm a little like that but I'm also a little like that but as I've gotten older don't don't think that way you just be who you are that is what will attract people who maybe ten years ago would have said I don't know about you Simone but now look at them yeah as they are

now you'll be watching Simone that's right you don't you want to say you want to say you want want me, if you have expertise, because of me. Not because I remind you. I don't want somebody to look at me and say, oh, you kind of remind me of Lester Holt or, no, I don't want you to look at me and say he could be a younger version of Lester, although Lester and I are practically the same age. You know, I don't want that. I want you to say Vlad is, when I watch Vlad, when I hear his reporting, when I see his reporting, it's uniquely his.

And that's what I think is important. I would add one thing. I think people need to take care of themselves. You know, I don't take it lightly that I think a lot of people really are walking around with PTSD. I think that we are a country that lost more than 800,000 people. People died of COVID, but people died of heart attacks, people killed themselves. We all watch George Floyd get strangled to death. Over and over again if you watch the trial,

I'm an emotional person, I think. And for me, I take things into my heart. I really, when I'm telling stories, or when I'm looking at people, I really,think maybe it's a blessing or curse I take a little bit of that that empathy that that feeling with me and that's that is a tough place to be especially right now it's a heavy heavy time which is why I think like Lauren London was on my heart because you know you think about what she lost in Nipsey and you think we all we've all lost in connection and in grief. I mean I think take care of yourself, get counseling if it's counseling, get

spot days, get your nails done, do whatever, like yeah you do the work but don't, but also there's nap ministry. I love this and there's a thing called nap ministry where literally the revolution, take a nap. And I was like, oh you know what, I like a revolution. I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, I like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th.'m okay with that. Because I think black people have... Like we talk about being black and media, black people were denied rest. So give yourself some rest. Between gigs I took two months off. I never take that much time off and I was like now I'm taking two months off. Like I need I need the time. And I needed the time. And to me I think I'm not shy about the fact that I thapapapapapapapap. And I'm the fact. the fact. the fact. the fact. the fact. the fact. the the the the the time. to be I'm the time. the time. to be I'm the time. to be I'm not. to the time. I'm not I'm not I'm not I'm not. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. to the time. to to the time. to get. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the time. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the ti. ti. ti. te. to. to. to. to me. to to me. to to to to the to the the the the the their. their. their. not shy about the fact that I think we should all be taking care of ourselves. Because you can grind and you can grind and you'll get to where you're going, but you don't want to have a heart attack

or kill yourself because you haven't really been able to take care of yourself or take care of the people that you love. You don't want to look up and then your mother passed away. But you to thi you you you you you their their their their their thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, but you thi, but you thi, but you thi, but you can't thin, but you can't thin, but you can't thin, but you can't thin, but you can't thin' thin' to grind and you can't to grind and you can't to grind and you can't to grind and you can't to grind and you to to to to to to thin and you thin and you to thin, but you thin, but you thi, but you thi, and you thi, and you thi, and you thi, and you thi, and you thi, and you can't thi, and you can't thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and you, yeah, you should still do that stuff, but also, I tell them, if you have a job and you really love your mom and the New York Times is offering you a job in your mom's hometown, don't feel bad taking that job and not taking, not running off to Ukraine and being on the biggest story right now, it's okay. It's okay. If that you you you you you you you that that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I that that that that that to to that to to to to to to to to to to tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho that that that that that that th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I tell tell tell tell tell tell tell. I tell tell tell tell tell tell tell that. I tell. I that. I tell. I tell. I tell. I tell. I took away and that I, that I learned the hard way in these last two years. That mean don't be coming up to, I'm miss you see her out at dinner with her husband. You just say, hey, you walk over, you ask for yourself and you keep it moving.

Don't ask her Get that lady her rats, let her eat her dinner. Don't come up to me at the nail shop. That's as good a place to end as any. Thank you so much to this wonderful, wonderful panel. Yemiche, Al Sender, Vladimir D.Tier, Simone D. Sanders. And thank you to you, the wonderful, wonderful audience of South by Southwest here in Austin, Texas. I'm Roywood Jr. and hopefully I've taken you beyond the scenes. All right, Roy. Yeah. Yes.

Good times. Listen to the daily show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast. the Iheart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast. This podcast is supported by FX's Atlanta. Returns March 24th on FX, stream on Hulu. Europe hits different. Atlanta season three takes Paper Boy, Earn, Van, and Darius across the pond, and they diving deep with new success, new Connections, and new weird,

FX's Atlanta premieres March 24th on FX, stream on Hulu. I am Evelongoria, and I am so excited to share my new podcast with you. It's called Connections with me, Evelongoria. The goal of this show is to learn, get inspired, and get connected. How should we connect with our partners, our kids, money, politics, food, jobs, news, spirituality, sex. How can we connect better with ourselves? Listen to Connections with Eva Longoria starting March 31st on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Do nice guys really finish last. I'm Tim Harford, host of the Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. From New York to Tahiti will examine villains undone by their villainy. Monstrous, self-devaring egos and accounts of the extraordinary power of decency. Listen on the IHart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.