The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Beyond the Scenes - How Washington's NFL Team Name Went from a Racial Slur to the Commanders

Episode Date: February 23, 2022

In the wake of the Washington Football Team rebranding as the Washington Commanders, Roy Wood Jr. talks to Bomani Jones and Crystal Echo Hawk about harmful Native imagery in sports branding. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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is to help build a better world where every person is free to move and pursue their dreams. Ford pays tribute to black history, our shared present and an equitable future for all. Built Ford proud. Build Ford Proud. Hey, I'm Roy Wood Jr. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes. The podcast that goes a little deeper into topics and segments that air originally on the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Today, we are discussing a hot topic, you know that Super Bowl that's coming up. We are discussing racist sports team names, especially the ones that are appropriating

native culture. So, you know, the Washington football team changed their name is something different, so we're going to break that down today. I have two guests to help me do that. The first one, this brother is a friend, and I've been a fan of his work for a long, long time. He is a sports journalist. He has a show coming to HBO a little later this spring that's gonna focus on the intersection of sports and race and gender and politics and economics.

The show was called Game Theory. His name is Boe, how you doing today, brother? Oh, good man. How are you? You got a little energy in your tank to talk racism. I know you've been talking a lot of black racism. We got talked different racism. They got cracking on February 1. It's gonna be a doozy. Also joining us today is the founder and executive director of Illuminative. It's a nonprofit organization that is focused on increasing native and indigenous visibility all of the spectrum, not just sports, but also entertainment, politics, all of that. She is a citizen of Pawnee, Crystal Echo Hawk,

Crystal Echo Hawk, I said it right the first time, I'm doubted myself. Crystal, how are you doing today? I'm good, I'm glad to be here with you guys, thanks. Thank you. So let's just dive right in. Cres, I love to start with you. You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. to, th. to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm to, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm to to to to, I'm to, I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to, to, to, to, th. th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, th. th. th. th, the Washington football team, they changed their name to the commanders. You know, what is your feeling? Let's just start right here. The day that you found out that the Washington football team had decided to just drop the original name and go, hey, give us a couple years, we'll figure it out, but for now we won't carry that name anymore, what were your thoughts and feelings on that? I mean it was really emotional, you know, I mean, you know, everybody kind of remembers back like Dan Snyder saying never, you know, print that capital

letters, underscore, this is never happening. And you know, this has been a fight that's been happening for decades. I mean, starting back in the early 60s, right, Suzanne Harjo really was was one of the first person to to to to to to to to to th. person person person person person person person person person person person person person to really to really to to to the first person to to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to to th. th. th. thi. to, to, to, to, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th in the early 60s, right? Suzanne Harjo really was one of the first person to really put this forward about, you know, the team dropping this dictionary to find racial slurs. So that gives you a sense of the arc of how long and how many generations have been fighting this, you know, vicious battle. I mean, we were told by pollsters going back in 2018, you will never win this mascot, battle ever. Americans aren't behind Native peoples on this.

And so to see this moment, fast forward to July 2020 in the announcement, it was incredibly emotional for so many Native peoples across this country. When we talk about allyship, you know, and that announcement from Washington football team owner, Dan Snyder came, you know, on the backside of the Black Lives Matter movement. Beaumonti, how much do you feel like that movement?

And I don't want to say you helped, but in terms of just collectively as a country, we just all just put our foot down and just went, yo, we're not taking this? And a matter of fact, Cleveland, Indians, y'all change y'all shit to..... to, th. to, th. th. th. th. thtaking this. And matter of fact, here's a couple other things that need to change. Matter of fact, Cleveland, Indians, y'all change, y'all shit, too. Can we talk a little bit about what are some of the ways, you know, and Crystal, I'd love to get an answer from you after Bo, on ways that black people can be supportive of helped on this one

that I think was interesting when Washington made the decision to do this, and it was the same thing I felt about the state flag in Mississippi. We wo-itn't even really talking about that, right? Like, you know, like, out of nowhere, the Washington football team just popped up it was like, you know what? Time for change. Like, really? After all this kicking and screaming and his foot stomping and everything else, you just popped up and just decided you were going to do it. And I think that something that happened with those names with regard to this was a big part of the refusal to change these names. To me, it's always been about white people just not letting nobody tell them what to do. Because. And the their. And their. And, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tie. And, tie. And, tie. And, te. And, te. And, te. And, te. And, te. And, te. And, te. And, te. And, today, te. And, te. And, today, te. And, tell them what to do. Because it's not as though the watch the football team change the name, and a single solitary person, whoever said,

I'll never watch them again if they change the name, not a single one of them stop, right? They got all kinds of the reason not to watch that sorry football team, but every time somebody swears up and down. They ain't never gonna go back. change the name and the people stay, right? Like there's nothing to be lost, there's no money to be lost. They just don't like being told what to do. We've seen this come up in all these different ways. And so I think after George Floyd, it led to kind of a broad look for a lot of corporate entities

at a lot of things that they did. And I also think it was an opportunity the opportunity the opportunity the opportunity the opportunity opportunity the opportunity the opportunity opportunity to tothe flag down for somebody else did it for And that was I thought maybe look progressive. Yeah, but that was what I thought was the most interesting part because people Have really really really been fighting for this for a very long time and they just turned a deaf ear to it and then one day this dude Who swore you never do it? to? their? their? to? the? to? to? to? to? to? to? to? to? to? to? too. too. too. too. their? too. their? too. to to to to to to to to to? to? to? to? to? to to their to to to to to to to look? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? to look? Yeah? Yeah? to look? to look? to look? to look? Yeah? to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, their their their? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah? the the they. they. they. they. they. to. to. to. to. to. to. they. to. they. they. to. they. to. to. to to the I'll just go ahead and change the name. Didn't even have no name. That's how you know they didn't have a plan. They were just like, all right, something's going to change the name. They were like, it was like, they were like, they were going to try to the, theyme. They were like, it's like, the perfect name you would never go do it. That was the one thing I gave them credit for. It's like it's got a change to what? Something else. What about nothing? Something else? Nothing works. Cool. Boom. Changed.

Crystal, this has always been an interesting, I would say as a black person growing up in Alabama, racism is a very insular experience in that you are focused on your people and your struggle and your fight and your fight and it wasn't until I got to Tallahassee and I went to Florida and we would go over to Florida State to do a little bit of drinking from time to time with you know with the folks over there and we will see members of the Seminole Nation protesting outside of Doak Campbell stadium and that was really one of the first times, you know, talking to 17 year old, where I was really being open to everything else that things that I never thought about and, you know, and I came up in the 90s, tomahawk chop, all of that nonsense. And so how can other groups, how can other people of color that are not we're supportive in a way that doesn't erase

your fight or step in front of your fight. Because that's the thing that Black for, Bomani know what I'm talking about. When you go to a Black protest, it'd be too many white people like, wait a minute, white lady, let me stand in front of you now. Same thing in a native protest. Same thing in a native protest. Right? Well, I may want to go back to something about mommy said and like really recognize. I mean, like, this, you know, this fight's been going for decades, right? And I think that's the majority. Majority Americans just thought this was because of George Floyd that this happened.

No, you know, decades long, but it was unfortunately his death, right? It just, it launched this perfect storm that it all the sudden, you remember the brands, Amtiama, everything started falling, and I'll never forget the day on that blackout Tuesday. And the team was like, we stand against systemic racism. And it was AOC and then Congresswoman Holland that called the team out. And it just launched a wave in right then at that simultaneously, there was a native organization that was started organizing those six hundred and twenty billion dollars worth of investors

Right, that came in and started really like that was the nail in it that you know, that's it under duress, right? This was not that they were willing to do it. So I just want to like, you know, just, it's to the to the their the the, it's just has such a special place in our hearts as Native peoples and in like where his family and just like really thinking about that moment. But I think it just set this moment where increasingly, I think hopefully as people of color, we're starting to see each other more and about where our struggles connect, you know, around this. And I think that was just like the key, the key, the key, the key, thiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, to thi, to to to to to to, to the, thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to to to to, to to to to to to to thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the the the the the the the the the the thean, the theat the to to that was just like the key thing is like really understanding since 2020 more is this conversation about systemic racism in the ways that it's beginning to impact all of us. And I think it's really been an opportunity to start to educate, you know, lots of allies

and people of color that their word is the end word to us, right? And that I think there's like such a deep psychology in this country about playing Indian in the conquest like that even when we shout from the rooftops this is racist we don't want this anymore people like no you don't even know your own mind we're honoring you like you know and I watched yesterday with the Washington announcement they released a video yesterday they said the R word probably two dozen times in their new video announcing the new name. And it was like really this dog whistle. And I just thought, you know what, what if they had said the N word 20 times in that same video?

Nobody would have stood for it. But yet yesterday, you know, it was just showing that the team I don't think, I don't think, their team is clearly, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, and, thr-a, and, and, and, and, their, and, their, and, and, th th th th thr-s, really, thi, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is clearly, is rollout. And so I think it's, you know, it's frustrating, but I do feel like we've really began to make headway and where people are beginning to really understand this issue and where Native peoples are coming from more. So to that point, Crystal, Beaumontie, just to show how ahead of the curve you've been on talking about this problem in professional sports. What was that five, six years years, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi. thi and thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, and where tho, and where tho, and where tho, and where tho, and where th. And, and where, and where, and where, and where, and where, and where, and where, and where, and where, th. So, th. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to tooan, tooan, tooan, too. So, toea. So, too. So, thea, thea, the. So, that? Five? Six years ago where you wore the Caucasian shirt? April of 2016. Yeah, the Cleveland's team before they change their name to the Guardian. You somehow, I don't know where you procured a whitewashed face of Cleveland's mascot and you had on a shirt to head, the Cleveland Caucasians and boy

they was mad at you. So we need to address the elephant in the room. Your t-shirt is dominating the social media conversation right now amongst our viewers. What motivated you to wear it? It was clean. Like, I think, number one, the fact that it was clean was a good start. The other part is I really like the shirt. It's just like the Cleveland Indian shirt. Like exactly the same thing th that that that change. That's it. This is the same thing that goes on with the logo for the Cleveland Indians, right? So like to have a problem with the logo of this would be to have a problem

with the Indians, but if you're quiet about the Indians and now you got something to say about my shirt. I think it's time for introspection. It was th. I th. I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, it's thi, it's thi, it's thi, it's thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the same the same the same their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi's thii's tiiiiiiiiiiiiia's thiiiia' thiiiiiia' thi. thi. thi't even on the show that day to talk about baseball. No, I was talking about some other stuff. Yeah, I wasn't even trying to prove no point though. Like that's the thing about it that was so interesting to me. Because I had that shirt for a long. Like I'd worn it in public. Like it wasn't like I have a shirt for this shirt's funny. The point to me was obvious. Like, I didn't think I was, because people have been saying these things was so long, I didn't think I was offering anything deep or profound,

right? Like, I wasn't hitting anybody with anything that they hadn't heard before. To me, it was just a funny shirt. That was all it is. Like I am absolutely not a hero on this because I did not to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to. And so as much as we talk about people being mad about it, kind of, right? Like I didn't have any problems at work. Nobody gave, the only talk they had with me was like,

look, it's, the shirt is dominating the show, and that's a problem. So if you could zip your hoodie up around it, which I thought that was a reasonable thing to say, like if you're producing a television show and one thing is taken away from the actual television show, then, okay, I've done this for an hour, right? Like I get it, I'm not going to fight you about it. And so I went ahead and did that, but it was a lot of people, rather than saying they were mad. A lot of, I'm not thi. thi. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I've thi. thi. thi. thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've th. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've thi. I've the. I've thee. I've ta. I've toda. I've toda. I've done thee. I've thee. I've thee. I've not over here mad. I'm like, bro, I wouldn't even think about you. So, like, maybe they were mad, but one thing I felt like I learned in that is, we give too much country to the loudest, an angriest people. Because overwhelmingly what I got in response to that was support.

Like, the significant majority of the people that I heard back from were like, whoa, this is so cool. Whoa, this is so cool. Whoa, thanks for standing, like all that kind of stuff. I think the negative stuff was actually a minority and probably a small part of it. Like I think there was actually a bit more popular support behind this, because in the end people just don't really care. Like that was the problem is that having a native mascot, they didn't even give that any thought. Like to them, it's not an overt, oppressive act. It's just like, oh, we want to make this the name of our team. And if they didn't do that, they name it after an animal.

And yeah, it's really problematic that they see those two always done. Like the football team in Washington, the part that nobody talks about is, they are historically sorry. Like if you're my age, you remember when they won those three Super Bowls, but that's basically the only time they've been good. And they were the longest segregated franchise in the NFL. And subsequently, one of the worst franchises in the NFL, for basically up to, to, to, to, to, to, thiiii and, th and, thi and, thi, th and, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, the, the, the, the, thin, thi, their, their, thi, their, thi, their, thi, their, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thr. too, too, toooooooooooooooooooooooo. too. the. th. the. their, their, their, the NFL for basically up until like 1970. They had two good coaches. So my point being, this name is actually attached to far more losing than it was ever attached to winning.

They were just holding all because they, God forbid, they let anybody else tell them what to do. I wonder what it would be like, though, if you put that Caucasian T-shirt on right now, because it is next level now from when you when one you did that first time to now and where people no that guy who makes those shirts has a picture of me up in his house um because that show I was on yeah because that show that that was on aired it from 6 to 10 Eastern and so he wakes up at like seven o'clock or 7 30 and he's like uh let me go see if we got any orders in overnight whoa and it just completely like, and I promise,

I really didn't think that this was going to happen like that. I was just sitting there blissfully unaware. And then it was like, oh, this is a thing. So Crystal, to Bramani's point of just how conversations grow and a ground swell starts. It may, the germination may have been one thing, but it blows up into something else. Talk to us a little bit about Illuminative and what you all do because this is a much bigger discussion than sports when we're talking about discrimination and the perpetuation of stereotypes against the natives.

What does your company do to fight some of those stereotypes? Just talk a little bit about Illuminative for it. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, Illuminative is founded on research, right? And I think it was just, you know, I've been an organizer activist my whole life, you know, working in Indian country. And I think just throughout life and talking to so many different people, weighthe aren't taking as seriously. And if we, you know, when we come out on anything, it's like we're reduced to a character,

character ture. So we did this research to really look at, you know, what are the dominant perceptions and narratives that Americans have about native people. Why do they have these perceptions? And how do they affect that nearly 80% of Americans don't know anything about us, right? And depending on where you live in the country, there are pockets of this country that aren't even sure if we exist anymore.

Because if you're not in proximity to a reservation, right? Then you're just, and then we're not represented in media. Our representation in media is less than 0.4%, right? And 90% of schools in thirty, th, right you know, don't teach about the Americans past 1900. So you literally, Americans are almost conditioned, right, coming out of K through 12, and then if you don't see us in the media, you don't see us in TV and film, that we don't, we cease to exist,

certainly as a contemporary people, right? past and what little representation that kind of ekes through is typically pre-1900 if it's TV and film, you know, and people can literally have a very hard time conceiving of Native peoples in a contemporary context. So as we began to learn that and really unpack that, we realized, you know, working with a lot of social psychologists and people looking at certain things, that it affects the way that we're treated. It really perpetuates discrimination and racism against Native peoples to think that we don't exist. We're out of sight, out of mind, and the few things that kind of conditioned to inform the way people think about us

are things like racist sports mascots, like Nielsen did a poll last year. 56% of the fans polled said that the only is if they're watching, you know, one of these teams with their mascots, right? And that's people in red face, turkey feathers, act in a fool that has nothing to do with really native cultures and native people. So, you know, we realized, you know, with this research that we, that representation truly matters. That is not just a catchphrase, right? Because the way that we show up and presented, you know, in the world really conditions the way that we're treated and not just in day-to-day life the way the courts treat us, Congress treats us, you know, the way that our children are treated in school. So really illuminative fights to, you know, fights against systemic racism and fights

against the erasure, right? We fight against these toxic stereotypes and false narratives and we really, their, their, thapapapapapapapapapapapapapape, their, their, thops, thops, thops, thops, thops, thops, thops, thops, thi, thi, thops, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, the way, the way the way the way the way the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way, the way their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, that, that, that, that, that., that. theauoooats, thea. thea, thea, thea, their their their their their amplify who native peoples are today. And our issues, our points of view and in key spaces like pop culture and media and also politics. Yeah, like I'm trying to think, Bo, you know, and granted, this is an Alabama school system, pre-CRT, native representation in history, who's Thanksgiving and Cowboys and Indians. And I think after that, it's just a mystery what happens to natives after that. Like there's not much. And then in TV, it was always you're the sidekick or you're the magical Yoda type. Go here and here's some wisdom.

Now go forth and go do the thing that you need to do. Yeah, like the native homie and the crew just doesn't come up on a a a a a a a a th the th th th on a th th on a th th on a th on a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot a lot go do the thing that you need to do. Yeah, like the native homie and the crew just doesn't come up on a lot of television shows. You know what I mean? Like, like, and that, but that's a thing that, you know, when you talk about a representation, like, you really get to a point on this stuff for somebody's just there, and that part of them is not part of going to go to for a joke all the time. And I think it's one of those things that's easy for people to not think of, and I think the point you made, especially depending upon what part of the country that you live in, where you're just not going to encounter native people. And it can be what part of, like, a tho' thii. that, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, they. they. they. they. they. they. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thin. the the thin, thin, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. th. things. things. things. things. things. things. things. things. thin. thooo. th that the west side of that county is a lot more native than you would have thought of, right? And the worlds kind of don't meet and don't come together, and that's a significant part,

I think, of the problem that you have is very easy to think of Native Americans or Native people, excuse me, as just like history. I know, because they're th. th. th. th. th. thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, you, like, you, like, like, you, like, like, you, you, you, like, like, like, you, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, the world, th. woe. woe. world, th. world, kind, the world, kind, the world, kind, the world, the world, the they had somebody was here, right? Like they said, they had gotten past the point acting like they showed up and it was like, wow, look at it, pick it, whatever desk you want, right? It wasn't one of those situations, right? Like they at least acknowledge that part and then you get to if you ask most people about what they learn in history it is, the trail of tears is where it stops but think about like metaphorically what that means. We are saying we got them up out of here and there's nothing left to discuss. Exactly. After the break, I want to talk a little bit more about the Washington football team and the Cleveland Guardians and what they got right and wrong in their transitions. And also, Chris, I'm going to talk to you about some of these other teams that are still

holding it down Dan Snyder style and saying we ain't never changing racism today, racism tomorrow, racism forever. I'm not sure if that's how they said it, but that's basically. So Alabama. So Alabama. You broke out a George Wallace quote. Well, I would love to see somebody like do a series, because every southern state has their George Wallace. It's like it's a different person in everyone, like the one standout races. Strong, firm and ass. Right, right. Georgia has less tomatics.

I mean, it's a hell of a competition in Mississippi. I don't know who ultimately becomes a champion in that battle royal. Texas like that too, Texas ain't got one. We've got a royal rumbling here. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. six times. And violets are blue. It's almost like her dream man came into her life. Are you looking for love? I'd do anything for you. And a little murder too? She would kill her own daughters to get away with it. He has a weapon. Drop the gun! In honor of Valentine's Day, listen to crazy and love the entire month of February on the

I-Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get, your podcasts. What can I say? Love made me crazy. Did you know that on the day Dr. King was shot, the all-black security detail normally assigned to him was called off? They're the ones who would not allow him to stay at any hotel with balconies. That security union was reassigned. There was a man there who had just gone in and there was a contract on my life, because I was going home.

Did you know that on the day Dr. King was shot, two black firemen stationed across the street, and one black police detective, who was surveilling King, were all taken off the job? What was the emergency that caused you to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the and one black police detective who was surveilling king were all taken off the job. What was the emergency that caused you to be moved to another fire system? Sure there was no emergency. Chief Wallace did you ever ask what this was all about? Yes. What were you told? Told that I didn't break. This is the MLK t Tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I-Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Crystal, I'll start with you. How do you feel about the new name?

Commanders. We're the Army and we're in charge. You know, the same army that told them Indians to get on out of here. What did they get right? What did they get wrong during this supposed two-year learning period and reflection and studying and speaking with members of your community? Well, I have to say I'm enjoying all the memes. I mean, it's just been hilarious, like gut laughs, right? and people's reactions to I'm enjoying all the memes. I mean it's just been hilarious like gut laughs right at people's reactions to the name and you know I'm kind of like whatever I mean at this point you know I think we were just so focused on the team not having coming up with the name that had

anything to do with native peoples right so I mean honestly I could care less. I mean that's for the Washington fans everyone else to litigate and laugh at you know the command. the command. the command. the comm. that's for the Washington fans and everyone else to litigate and laugh at, you know, the commandos. I mean, everybody was enjoying all the things yesterday. What did they get right? I mean, I think they definitely did go talk to native people, right? Like dozens, you know, a couple dozen Native peoples, and I think they did focus groups. The team met withthey hurt us, right? And just kind of people, you know, and even knowing where some of the options they were looking at around wolves and different things, I mean, they really did have some conversations and I felt like, they listened, right? Just stay away from a bunch of things and like, you know, so whatever direction they ended up with this military thing, I mean, that's a whole next level thi........... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their. their. their. their, their, their, their, their, they. they. they. they. they. they. they they they they they they they're, they they're, I, they're, they they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they were, they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they... they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they, they're, they're, they're, they're, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, mean, but I mean, I think finally,

you know, I can tell you up until the last minute Native peoples were holding their breasts because we just don't trust them, right? Like, what are they gonna pull? And so I think we were, you know, relieved it had nothing to do with us, but again, watching the rollout yesterday and seeing that video. I had had the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, that, that, the, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, that, the, that, that, that, that, that, that, ta, ta, ta, together, together, together, together, together, the, send it to me last night like fit to be tied. I mean it just was this dog whistle and it was kind of this wink wink nudge nudge to the fans around that name and it's just like really

showed that that you know internally in that organization they still don't get it. they still don't get that this was like the most disgusting racist term ever in the harm that they created. And so, you know, they're on my call list today to kind of like, you know, on the one hand, you're telling Native people's list, but here's your actions. Again, there's just clearly some things and that inside that franchise that had not changed. And you know, and I think that they no recognition, right? They sort of dance around why they had to actually change the name.

It's like, you know, now like, oh, we wanted to do this almost, right? And kind of embracing it, and I think you look at all the native leaders commenting yesterday saying, this is not enough. Where's our apology? Where's the apology to the activists that they harassed and targeted, like Suzanne, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, anda, anda, anda, anda, and, anda, anda, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the.............. And. And, the. And. And, the. And, the. And, the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thethe activists that they harassed and targeted, like Suzanne Harjo and Amanda Blackhorse? Right, I mean disgusting really vile, vicious behavior that you know there were like death threats against some of these activists, you know, and what are they going to do that 90 years of racism that they perpetuated like overnight everything is okay? No, and I think that's where you know Native people's Indian country is like we're going to to to to this team accountable. Well, I think in line with that,

I think that there's something fundamental to like, this team has historically believed, and this goes back to the 1950s and 60s with their segregation, they have historically believed that their fans their fans like a little racism, right? Like the argument against integrating the team for George Preston Marshall was that our fans don't want black players on our team, right? They have made this guess, right? And I always wondered, anybody who swore they never watched that team again, if they ever had black people, then I think it's

17 years later, Doug Williams wins the Super Bowl with them. I bet they were all sitting there watching, but they operate, but they they their their their their, but their, but their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their Bowl with them and I bet they were all sitting there watching but they operate on this assumption that people like this like they believe that their fans think this is all better with a little racism again it sure seems that whenever they change these things the world keeps on spinning and nobody does anything and so I've always wondered like when they decide they're to come up with a new name or what they were going to do if they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi. thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th the th the the the the the the the the the theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. thi thi thi thi thi thi feel like they had to give a little nudge to be like, don't worry, we're still with you, right? Like fundamentally, the audience for them is white people. And I feel like race so often in this country, as is discussed by white people, between white people, it's just kind of something to talk about. Like, you know, you root for this team, and in the end we go home and we're all still friends, we just root for different teams because it don't mean the same thing to them. Like ultimately when it comes down to this, it's not, it doesn't have the same gravity.

It's not as serious, you know, when it comes in. And so that to me I thought was a huge part of the Washington story that gets lost is, a lot of this is on Snyder as it was on Cook before as it as it as it as it as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was on Marshall, as it was as it was on Marshall, as it was on Marshall, as it was on Marshall, as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was as it was on the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the same as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as it's as the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the to thasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasas., to to thasasasasasasasasasasasasasasasers. to thasks. thasers. to to to But at some point as fans, you gotta stand up and just kind of be like, y'all think we saw races? Or just say that you are, but they definitely think that you are. And if I say something about these people being racist, everybody wanna come march about it. These teams tell you that they think you're racist and you're like, a little bit, maybe, scoche. Was there the same feeling crystal of insincere sincerity from the Cleveland Guardians when they changed their name because they got roasted too because everybody's like, y'all would name the team after two statues that look over traffic.

You know, I mean I think they had a really different process, right? You know, again, I think then to Washington. I mean again, you know, it's a whole other thing. I mean, I think, you know, for the, for the their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for their, for the, for the, for their. their. the, for, for, their. their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their, their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. today. today. today. today. today. today, today, today, today, today, today, think then to Washington. I mean, again, you know, it's a whole other thing. I mean, I think, you know, for the, for Native peoples, particularly people living in a Cleveland area, I mean, it was just a long, hard fought battle and they were just relieved again, you know, to finally, that the name, it's just not the same level of vitriol, right, and just, I mean, they were never as nasty as the Washington team and their leadership,

right? So I think it's just, you know, it's kind of looked at in a different way. I don't think with the same kind of distrust, and, you know, and I think today, people are pissed at the team, you know, I mean, even though we're relieved, it's just still like so evident that I don't think that they've really learned. And as you know, from wanda, you put it right, I mean, it's that's their legacy. And if you watch the video, the the NFL as we know, it was really like, I mean, it was really like, wow, it was a wink wink, you, you, you, tha, tha, th.., th., it was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, I, I, I, I, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I that, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I, I, I'm, I, I'm, I, I, I that, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. wink wink nod to that. And it's just, it's, you know, the NFL, as we know, has a little bit of a racism problem and there's the understatement. Well, Chris, I'm curious about this with Cleveland, because to me, you know, I'm speaking from obviously

a bit of a comfortable distance, and like when I hear Indian, I hear Indian like I hear colored, right? Like it's an antiquity that's born in a bunch of stuff, but not a slur in the same way as we talk about these other things. The thing with me with them was always Wahoo, which by the way they had, if you don't know, they have evolved, there's been various forms of Wahoo. This form of Wahoo, the last one, the mascot they the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, tho, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was................. the, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was. the, was, was. the, was. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. two or three incarnations that had come up previous. Like they had held on, that was always the one

where I'm like, you got this thing on the hat. You can't do that. Like, like that was always the most. The Mohawk and everything. Yeah, I was always the most indifference part. And then that last year when they looked like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like the he had one of the antiquated Cleveland Chief Wahoo and I was floored. It was the mascot as much as anything else that they held on. People like, look, can you move off from this? Look, can you move off from this? And at points teams, it seemed at points that there would be times the leadership was like, yeah, we can do thi. thin' thi thi tho's th th th tho tho's tho's thoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the mascot the mascot their their their tho. It was like their tho thooooooo. It was like their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. t. t. toda. toda. It was. It was. It was. It was. It was what in the world are these fans going to do and I'm like, do you know anything about Cleveland sports fans? Do you see the losers they have

attached themselves to for decades? And you think they go quit you over this? Are you serious? But they just refused to let go of that part. And that to me was just, it was just always so striking that nothing was quite like that, because I feel like, and I could be wrong here. But I feel like the best way to get people to not pay that much attention to your native mascot is if your uniforms are attractive. So the Chicago Blackhawks managed to dodge this in a bit of a unique way. They have very striking jerseys. Like I'm not saying that they are not problematic. I am saying visually they are striking. The Braves have had those uniforms that they've been wearing now since 1987. You can't think of very many teams that have had uniforms the same without any fundamental change to them that long. Like they found a design and they stuck with it. The chiefs, same way. Somehow, and granted their names names names names names names names names names names names names names names are names are names are names are names are names are names are names names are names are names are names are, their names are a little different. It's not, you know, it's not the same as the R word and all of these things. But those are the ones they get to skate.

If we don't think your gear is hot, we're telling you that you've got to get this stuff out of here. You know, I think that's part of it, right? But, I mean, just one point I want the the point, the point, the point, the point, the point, the one, the one, the one, the one, the one, the one, the one, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. tho one point, tho one point tho one's the one point tho one's tho o' tho o' tho o' the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one's the one, the one, the one, the one, the one, the one, the one, the one, the one's the one's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the is thean., theanan. thean. thean. thean. thea. thean. thea. thean. the.? I mean like the R word that's like that was next level right people like chiefs, braves, like blackhawks, come on what's native people's problems here? And it is it's about the imagery, right? But it's also about the racist sports fan behavior that starts spinning out from it, the red face, right? Red face is the equivalent to blackface, right? The turkey feathers, the drum, the tomahawk chop, all these things that mimic and mock Native peoples. It has nothing to do with anything related to traditional native culture. So it's really this ecosystem that radiates out, even from a name that might not on face value

look like it's offensive. It's ever, it's the culture that radiates out or the way that rival fans will use hate speech right when they're cheering against those teams that ends up being hate racist speech against Native Americans. And Chris, I'll tell you something I didn't know. I did not realize until very recently that like sports teams that are the Warriors that that was basically a euphemism for previous native names. Like I was on a Little League team when I was nine years old that was called the Warriors and it hit me one day. It was Navy blue with red letters across. We were the Cleveland Indians. I had no idea.

The Golden State Warriors and basketball. I had no idea this one. They were selling the old gear on the website. And I looked at it and you would be shocked. And you would be shocked if you looked at what it was. It was just terrible. savage native imagery from like the 1950s, I had no idea that they ever had this era because I did not think of warriors in that way. And what was so funny about it was,

my producer on my podcast pointed it out to me. And I said, wow, when we talked about it on the podcast, and sent a link out, that was like, wow. I had no idea of this. Within, I want to say a half hour, it was down from the MBA store. Like, nobody had noticed it. It was just literally, nobody noticed it was there. And I was the one person to be like, yo, this is bananas. And then we looked up at the link was gone. But right fast, that link was gone. Because they had just been skating and I had no clue that that was where all that store. So the the link, and the link, and the link, and the link, and the link, and the link, and the link, and the link, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the link the link the link the link the link the link the link, the link, the link, the link, the link, the link, the link, the link, the link, the link, the link, the link, the link the link the link the link the link the link the link was gone because they had just been skating and I had no clue that that was where all that started. So then that brings me to this last question

before we go to the break. Where does economics fit into this resistance to change, Bo? Because a lot of teams don't want to change because they think that the fans are going to be angry like right now the chiefs are starting to get a little bit of pressure and they said like, I think like back in 2013, 2014, we are meeting with members of that community and we are trying to make sure and figure out a way and we are not racist. Just give us a little time to figure it out. But they hadn't done anything since any of those conversations. How much does the economic model of sports play into these teams believing that if they change the fans will leave and we is going to be broke. Yeah I don't think it's

economic I think it's just white supremacy to be perfectly honest like all the things that the NFL expels us to put up with at every turn and they think that's going to be the one to make people suddenly stop. to their have told us over and over again that they believe that no matter what we do, don't you worry if people are going to show up. As long as you sing the Star Spangled Battle before the game and show some blood to the military, then people going to come to the games. So they don't think really that this toobeckle. their thoombue thoombue thoombue thoombue. T thoombue. thiiii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. tooombuillion. tooe. toe. toe. toe. toe. too. too. toe. toe. Thea. Thea. Thea. Thea. Thea. Thea. toe. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. It. It. It. It's is is is. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It'sa. It'sa. It'sa. It'sa. It's a toe. It'sa. It'sa. It'sa. It'sa. It'sa. It'sa. It'sa. It's a toe. It's a toe. toe. It's a toe. toe. It's a toe. It's a to, and this is clear, unless you are like the Green Bay Packers or the Dallas

Cowboys and you have this brand that is just immutable and so strong and that if you change it, it really like fundamentally alters the experience that people have with it. Yeah, like if you want to those, otherwise you just change the name and sell most stuff and get more bread and then bring the other stuff back as a throwback if you want to and figure out some way to do that. Like I've always thought that the economics would encourage a change in this and no I just think that they ain't about to let nobody tell them what to do and what I thought was the most instructive thing about the period after George Floyd. Look how much work we got done when we stopped caring about mad people. It was a month and change where you didn't worry about if it made white folks mad and we got

a lot done and they didn't even actually get that mad. I mean that was January 6th, but other than that, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, they didn't get mad her, right, maybe they was already on the red line, right? And there wasn't no place else for them to go. But they, but they laid low for, for the summer of 2020. Oh, we was bought it and they was like, let them have it. Let, let them get it out. Crystal.

Crystal, why do fans hold else that they could find that's less racist that represents their town? What does it say about people when they have an inability to just let go of something? Like in Cleveland, they're still artists that sell Chief Wahoo stuff. They're like, I'm painting what I want to paint. You ain't going to tell me what to do. What does that say about our society when people think that the identity of the team their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, is is is is is is is is in in in.... We is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi.ei. Wea. Wea. Wea. thiiiiiiiiiiiii. thiii. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. th identity of the team belongs to them and not to your people. I mean it just goes to show how, like again going back into the psychology of this country and like the deep like master meta narratives that are around this, it's like there's something about playing native.

It's just such like it feels like an entitlement and a right. And it's like it's about anything goes. It doesn't matter what native people say we do. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And it's like it's about anything goes. It doesn't matter what native people say, we do, you can come take our land, you can take our culture, you can take our women, you can take everything. And that is like a deeply embedded part of this nationalistic identity in white supremacy. It is, I mean, so many, you talk to any activist, native activists that is working on these issues at some point, you have received death threats of violence. And it. And it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and, is, and, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, th. And, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, like, like, thi. thi. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi received threats of violence and it's just like what this is a damn sports team this is like seriously you're getting like I got a threat this morning on Instagram and it's like what is it about this dude in Kansas that he's like you know losing his mind about this name change and I think it really speaks to the heart of white supremacy this white nationalist identity that unfortunately is just getting fed and and really getting bigger and bigger and it's just you know it's it's stunning

to me right but it is it's a deep psychology of white supremacy and which has a lot to do about conquering native peoples and taking that is just you know it's what we're fighting against constantly. After the break Crystal I want to talk with you more about your research and the things that you all have planned for the future and around the corner and both money. I want to talk with you a little bit about the same thing because, you know, you have for a long time on a number of various platforms, been trying to wield that sledgehammer of justice. And you already did. I didn't even know that story. I didn't know you cut off somebody's money on the NBA.com merch store.

It was gone. So I know that there's a lot that you have to do as a member of the media in bringing these topics to light. And I think that you too, the other side of the break. This is beyond the scenes. Hi, my name is Cassidy Zachary and I am April Callahan. And we are fashion historian. Yep, and co-hosts and the creators of the podcast Dressed, the history of fashion, which is dedicated to investigating the significance of dress from throughout history and around the world. And we are so excited to bring you a brand new season celebrating groundbreaking fashion figures and exploring the history of everything from corsets to blue jeans. Dress the History of Fashion is

available on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday. The Black Effect Present. I didn't know. Maybe you didn't either. But the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery. Oh no, the the the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history the history the history the history the history the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. the history. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It know. Maybe you didn't either. But the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery. Oh no, it's royalty. Not despair. B. Dot here. And every day in February, I will give you a black history fact that I didn't know. And maybe you didn't either. It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history.

Listen, so I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black Effect Podcast Network, Our Heart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or just wherever you get your podcast from. We have had a very spirited conversation about native imagery and professional sports. Crystal is here, and her company is Illuminative and your company does a lot of you use you do what people need now because it's not enough to just go something racist.

You got to have data. You got data. You got data. Talk to us a little bit about the future of your company because then people go okay now you telling the truth. See I didn't believe you before from just being a member of that community. You got data. Talk to us a little bit about the future of your company and how you all are measuring. How do you measure what's wrong and then how do you measure when you think it's changing? You know, what's the future look like for your company? Yeah, well, I mean, I think when we think about the future of Eliminate and we're just thinking about representations. So, you know, despite everything that we've talked about about Washington, right, that's a victory for Native peoples at the end of the day, right?

As we start knocking these things down, but at the same time, like so much of the work that we have done is really to advocate, for example, in entertainment and media, right? About the need for more native stories and TV and film, more representation across all facets of media. And so that's a really big focal point of art organizing, our advocacy, both like very outward facing, but also behind the scenes, right, doing a lot of work inside the industry, and really forging partnerships with studios so that we can see, you know, last year we had our first two ever Native American television shows. It's crazy it took this long to kind of hit that mark. But, and they were huge successes, right? So really looking at how we get more of those stories made and working with studios in that way.

I mean, I think it's also a lot of advocacy across all facets of media, right? We still don't have any Native American commentators on any of the major cable networks, you know, major media outlets. So it's really again looking at that advocacy and creating opportunities for Native peoples, Native voices and Native stories so that more people can see us and hear us and understand that Native peoples have a lot to say,

we are doing a lot, we are contributing a lot. And it's really shifting that narrative so that Americans can really see who we are today............................................................................. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. the the they. they. they. toe. they. toe. the, to really shifting that narrative so that, you know, Americans can really see who we are today and the ways that we're leading and innovating across this country. What I what I love about shows like Rutherford Falls and Reservation Dogs, which are, I'm assuming those are the two shows that we're talking about, is that it doesn't, it's just people existing. And there is a plot and there's a story and it's within the world that you may or may not know something about, but it doesn't come across this, this is our story and it's time that you know exactly what is.

And it's beautiful because it's an easier entry point for people to absorb stuff that they might reject because let's be real, when you're trying to inform ignorant people, you got a hide the vitamin and adult food, which Bumani, that's something that you are very often very able to do that. The Caucasian shirt is a perfect example of that. Like you didn't come on to take a stand. It was just, yeah, just wearing the shirt. I thought this, right? You know what's happening, right? So when you approach racial injustice in sports, not in sports, but as a sports, as primarily a sports journalist, though, I think HBO gonna force you out that box a little bit and let you start dibbling and dabbling.

I mean, I've been out that thing for like 20, but I feel you. How do you, how do you approach covering racial justice in sports? Let's just keep it in sports since that's what this episode is. Well, I don't think I have a strategy as much as, the one thing I know is, just don't make it personal. You'd be amazed the wide birth that you receive if you don't make it personal, right? Like that's once you start, and part of why I'm not inclined to make it but so personal, is you actually, in many cases, minimize the overall point when you make it personal, because there are

individuals that exist who certainly are racist. There's no question about that. Once you start focusing on whether or not, or calling that person racist, the discussion then becomes whether or not that person is racist. And that term racist is used by different people in different ways. There's like th, once th, once th, once thi thi, once, once, thi, thi, thi, th, thi, and th, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and, thi, and, and, thi, and, thi, and, thi, and, and, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and, thi, and, and, thi, and, and, th. th. thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, thi. And, and, thi. And, thi, and, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. by different people in different ways. There's like a very basic word that you can use but see once you start talking about it as it evolves individuals then you start getting a standard that is beyond even a reasonable doubt right like people gonna require you to prove that to the 99% of confidence on that and everything you say then ultimately winds up being derail.

Our biggest problem is not individuals our biggest being derailed. Our biggest problem is not individuals, our biggest problem is systems. Our biggest problem are the things that happen that you can't just point a finger at one person and say, hey, he's the one who did this. So for me, talking about systems and the things there, that isn't difficult and it's not hard to get the room for people to are willing to listen to me go kind of hard, which is a bit surprising, but I think the reason is, you just kind of got it, like for me, my brother told me something very early on in my career that has guided me. And he was like a good argument is not one that a genius cannot refute. It is one a fool cannot refute.

So I am going to talk to you right where you are. I'm going to come to directly where you are in as direct a fashion as possible. As polite a fashion as possible, also, but as direct a fashion as possible as possible, but as direct a fashion as possible, as possible, as possible, to me, people are willing to to do on these matters. Some of them are lost causes, you know, but you can't worry about them. And I think that's the biggest part of it. The people you ain't never gonna win over any the people you can be concerned with. So as we wrap up here, Crystal, and we look ahead, there are a lot of franchises that,

for the time being, seem inclined to keep their problematic names. Are their their their to to to to to keep their, to keep to keep their, their, their, their, to to keep, to keep, their, their, their, their, to to keep, to keep, their, to keep, to to keep, to keep, to keep, to keep, to to to to to to to be., to keep, to keep, to keep, to keep, to keep., to keep., to keep....... to, to keep..... to keep, to keep.. to keep. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to, to be. to, to. to. to. too, to. too, too, too, their, their, their, their, their. tooome. tooome. tooombea. tooombea. tooombea. too, to people. to people. to peoplethe casual sports fan, what can we do to help bring light to this? And I'm talking bigger than just black people and other communities of color. I'm just talking about if I'm a fan of the Braves or the Chicago Black Hawks, what can I do as a casual fan to try and bring light to these types of injustices? I mean, one, lean in and get educated, right? Because I think, what we to what we to, what we to, what we to, what we to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th light light th light th light th light th light th light to try and bring light to these types of injustices. I mean, one, lean in and get educated, right? Because I think what we find, you know, going back to my original statistic, 80% of people know very little about Native Americans. So one, it's just we see that there's still a lot of education and to understand why

these things are harmful. And it's not always just the name, it's all the things associated with it. And then I think making our voices heard, and I'll tell you this, you know, this last, you know, world series, I was stunned by how many sports reporters actually were like, oh, we get this now and started really challenging the team and its ownership and the MLB commissioner. Like, it was a new dawn, this last round, thi. thi, tho tho thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, tho, thu, thi, thi, their, their, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu. I was, thu. I was, thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. th the level of conversation, you know, about the history of Indian removal, you know, and genocide and in, you know, Georgia and all the things, like it really kind of brought it in. So I think people, you know, social,

the tooble to the tool, and when people start turning up the volume, you lean in and start making your voices, Right and to really be part and parcel of joining that movement because that's how we started getting it done with Washington and these other ones right They felt the pressure so it's just really people getting educated It's engaging in those conversations with your friends and your family and then really being a part of turning up the volume and putting the pressure on these teams to make the change Yeah, and I think the world series is a perfect storm too. It helps that the commissioner of major league? to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to th. to to to to to to to to to to to to te te te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th is. th is. the th is. te is. te is. te is. te is. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. te. te. It helps that the Commissioner of Major League Baseball, Cornell degree or not, does not appear to be the brightest man in the world because they took that all-star game out of Atlanta because of the voting rights stuff that was going on there. And then when he got asked about that team name, he basically pulled the state's rights argument and said that this is a local matter and not something for us to discuss. And we all all all all th. And we all all all all th. And we all all all the th. And we all all th. And we all all. And we all. And we all. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the. And the the tha. tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, tha. And, the. And, the. And, the. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, tha. tha. tha. tha. tha. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. And, too something for us to discuss. And we all like, so was that voting rights bill, homie, but you packed up and moved

because Delta and all of them told you we're not on board with this, and then you left. The hypocrisy was laid so bare at that point that I think it did bring on a whole new challenge. And I hope something that people learn from that one also is is is is the natives that the team tells you speak for every other native. Like Dan Snyder had his on-call natives whenever something would pop off. I was just about to ask Crystal about,

yeah, they're on television. And the Braves got their on-call natives, and they have a casino deal with them, right, because the Braves are corporately known. Easterman, Cherokee. Yep. Yeah, that's right. And so like, if they are like, now, come listen to them. If they not like go listen to all of them, they're like, no, listen to these ones right here standing next to me.

It's probably a con. Yes, yes, exactly. Kee Sneed from Eastern Band got put on blast across Indian country for what he pulled down there. I mean, I saw a man to Black Horse once. I think I was on outside the line. I don't know if I was on. I may have just been watching. She was all with some whoever Daniel Snyder's on call native was at that time, I just flat out asked him, are you being paid for this? Which I don't recall him answering? Uh-huh. What's that conversation like internally?

I know black folks, we normally don't get into it publicly because we call it family business. But what is that internal strife? Is there a lot of that strife within the native community? Hey, could you shut the hell up? We're trying to get the name changed over here. Oh, I mean, it, no, this time with what happened at the Starris, and I mean, he got put on blast publicly, the tribe did. And I was, I mean, like, I think there was a statement came out of national congress, American Indians saying things like natives, I mean, the people, gloves, their, they gloves, they gloves, they gloves, they...... they, they, they, thap, they. thap, they, they. I, thap, they. I, tham, they. I, they. I'm, they. I was, thathe a, thi, they. I was, they. thee. they. thee. they. thi, thi, thi, thi, they. And, thi, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, t ty ty ty ty ty ty tha tha tha thee thee thee thee thee. thee. ththat a tribe in the neighboring state said no to no this is where we're going to sign off on this it's not the tomahawk chop is

not traditional to Eastern Ban Cherokee or anybody else this is an invention of Hollywood right in people's fantasies of playing native so I think this is really people put the tribe Eastern Ban Cherokee and whatever this mattering of natives that they found in the the that you do not get to make that decision for all of us and for our kids. And so people are people are over it and I can tell you like more and more especially as these younger generations of natives are coming up, they're done. They're done. They're done with and my grandparents and everybody above were cool with it. These younger generations, they're done. And so that's the shift. Well, I wish that we had more time to really dig into this, but I feel like we got a lot accomplished today.

I cannot thank you all enough for going beyond the scenes with me. But Monnie Jones, the show is Game Theory, and that's premiering on H on H on H on H on H on H on H on, the the the the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the show, the th, the show is Game Theory and that's premiering on HBO later this spring, maybe early summer. I do not know your production schedule, but I do know it is coming very, very soon. And Krista Echo Hawk, thank you so much. Thank you for all the work that you're doing with Illuminative as well to bring about change in this country and the elimination of the Tomahawk chop as well. Thank you all for going beyond the scenes with me. Listen to the daily show beyond the of the podcast under the influence. If you tuned into our last season, you know that the world of mom influencers on Instagram contains multitudes.

Yes, there are pretty pictures and gorgeous kids, and yes, there's lots of money behind a lot of those pictures, but there is also something much more dark and complicated going on in the background. And that speaks to everything that is wrong with how we treat women in the world. On season 2 of Under the Influence, we're advocating for the women who make content and the women who consume it. We're going into some of the darkest corners of the social media universe, and we might just have a plan to shut it all the hell down. Listen to season 2 of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza on the I Heart Radio App, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. What grows in the forest, our imagination, and our family bonds.

The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest near you at Discover the Forest.org, brought to you by the United States Forest