The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Beyond the Scenes | Violence Against Women & What Men Can Do to Stop It

Episode Date: May 11, 2022

Kim Kardashian and Kanye West’s divorce started as a celebrity scandal, but has evolved into a larger discussion surrounding the harassment many women face when trying to leave a relationship. In this episode, host Roy Wood Jr. sits down with Daily Show writer Christiana Mbakwe-Medina and journalist Rachel Louise Snyder to discuss how The Daily Show has covered this topic, the many types of violence women endure on a daily basis, and the lengths women go to in order to feel safe.    For further resources visit The National Domestic Violence Hotline:  https://www.thehotline.org    Watch the original segments:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDclMXpjvj8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEZdsisM8ZISee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey, what's up? Welcome to Beyond the Scenes. We are the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the Daily Show of Trevor Noah. I'm Roywood Jr. as always and today we're talking about a very serious issue, violence against women and why it's up to men to stop it. We'll also be taking a look at a recent segment about Kim Kardashian and Kanye West and the

harassment that many women face when trying to leave a relationship. Now before we get started I just want to just add a quick little disclaimer. Today's conversation might contain some tough subject matter so I just want everyone to be aware of that and give you an off-ramp if you need it. All right, with that aside, let's roll the clip. For many women, every time they leave the house, it's a risk. And this is not something that men experience. Like when the pandemic hit, men were like, so just going outside is dangerous now and women, yeah, add it to the list. Because for women, just being out in public. th. th. their, th. their, th. their, th. their, their, th. th. th. their, th. th. their, th. th. their, th. th. th. their, th. th. th. th. th. that, their, th. to, to, to, to, th. th. to, th. th. th. th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the. the. the. the. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. th. th. toe it to the list. Because for women, just being out in public means facing a wide array of potential threats from men. The top story at this hour, the violence against women and the conversation that it has sparked among women

around the world. For many, it can feel like the only way to guarantee your personal safety is to stay at home, lock your doors and never leave. The World Health Organization says one in three women worldwide have been subjected to physical or sexual violence. And data shows the violence starts alarmingly young. Around the world, six women are killed every hour by men. And for women of color, their cases rarely in the headlines.

On social media, the post text me when you get home now going viral. Women all over the world sharing their stories. As men, we should be steering this conversation to where it belongs, centered on us, because this is our responsibility not to be creeps. So let's not make it the one thing that we don't take credit for. Today I'm joined by Daily Showwriter, Christiana Mbacque, and I'm also joined by journalists and author of the book No Visible Bruises, Rachel Louise Snyder.

Welcome to the show. Thanks for having us Roy. Thank you. Now, this topic, Christiana, you know, the show first covered the topic after the murder of Sarah Everart, the young woman who was abducted while walking home from a friend's house in London. And it sparked a much larger conversation that even something as simple as walking home isn't safe for women. What are some of the ways that women encounter violence on a daily basis? It can be anything, it can be being on the subway and a man sitting a bit too close

and intimidating you with his body language and becoming aggressive when you maybe ask him to back off. And it can get a lot more gruesome than that. There's an entire spectrum of violence that women have to face and navigate in their daily life. There's a lot of issues on the show, Christian, and you know, we're on comedy central. But sometimes, and you know, there's times where the comedy has to wait. How do you prioritize which things to inform society, men, let's just keep it real. How do you all decide to prioritize, all right, men are dumb,

which things do they need to understand first? Do you start with the base level stuff? I hear you laughing. Like, how do you all decide which things? Because some of it, you can sprinkle a joke or two in, and you can kind of, like, cat calling, we've talked about to to to to to to to to that that to to that to to to that, to to to decide to to decide to to decide to decide to to decide to decide to to decide to decide to decide to to to decide to to decide to decide to to to to decide, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the the the the, the, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they...... they. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, calling that we've talked about that on the show in the past but cat calling is a symptom of a far bigger issue so how are you all just you know in the writers room able to figure out and sparse out what people need to know versus what you could possibly try to make funny. I mean it's

particularly that Sarah Evraud case which happened where I'm from South London I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I've th. I've th. I've th th th th. I've th th. th. th. th. th. th. tho thoed tho tho thoed. I mean it's particularly that Sarah Evraud case which happened where I'm from South London. I know that park, I've walked through that park many times and thinking about how horrifying it was it is difficult to find any sort of humor in it because frankly the subject matter isn't funny right there's nothing funny about a woman being murdered when she's just simply trying to get home. And when I was working on that, I was thinking from the perspective of a woman, what parts of it are kind of funny in a sick way. And the joke I wrote that did make the show is like, when you go out with your girls and they're like text me when you get home, which is a thing that all women do.

If you don't text you, then when you get home, they get freaked out and you wake up in the morning and you're trending on Twitter. It's like fine Christiana because every woman just thinks the worst, right? Sometimes you just get toxed you're a little bit tipsy, you're their.. loved ones. And that's happened to me on a few occasions. When my now husband, when we was just dating, he would get freaked out if I didn't text him when I'd got home for somewhere. And once he was even going to call his cousin to come to my apartment to check if I was there, right?

It became a big thing, but it's kind of funny, that if you don't text or forgot. And we try and find the funny in those kind of the nuances of it all and how it makes your experience as a woman kind of inconvenient because you're constantly worried about your safety and then reassuring the people that you love that you are indeed safe. To Christiana's point about precautions, right? A woman waking up to being searched for because she didn't charge her phone and she didn't hear the text messages or whatever. Those are jokes amongst men. Those are like, text me when you get home. Ha ha ha. I remember doing a college show years

ago when I was younger in my younger days. Still pull off a student loan or a book buy-back joke. The university would give comedians a swag bag and the swag bag was really the same stuff they were giving the kids for coming to the show and there would be a cup and a little rar-ra go team towel and every now and then there would be a rape whistle in the bag. And I can distinctly remember, you know, some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some some, some, some, a the would be a rape whistle in the bag. And I can distinctly remember, you know, some of the other male comedians that was on the show,

but they were like take, look at the rape whistle and just throw that back on the today, I don't need one of those, give me a key ring. As a man you were oblivious to a lot of that, what are some of the other precautions that women have the other the other the other the other the other the other the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, theeeeeeean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, theeeeee, the, that women have to take every day when they leave their home that men are just completely oblivious and stupid to? I mean I take precautions in my home, you know, I have an alarm system. I live in a city that has fairly high crime and I remember about midnight one night. I stay awake really late. I'm a writer where, you know, we're creatures of habit, I guess, and this person knocked at my door and I was only like three feet away from the door and I just like, holy fucking shit, you know that like, moment you're like, ah, and then I went

and hid behind like one of my chairs in my living room, which is stupid, like, what's that gonna do? Like, I'm not here? And, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I th, and I th, and I th, and I th, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and I just, and th, and I this, and I just, and this, and this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, which is stupid. Like, what's that going to do? Like, I'm not here, I'm not here. And I just remember feeling this like, you know, of course I called the police and whatever, but there's this feeling I get. I don't know if it's the same for you, Christiana, where it feels like, it doesn't matter what preparations I have. I'm a journalist,'s covered war zones and

natural disasters and you know I took a class for journalists and hostile environment and all these things that are supposed to like give me the some advantage that other women don't have but at the end of the day I don't I don't feel those advantages in any tactile way I still feel vulnerable. It really is something I open and you know even something that I try to do is not walk too fast or make my presence known if I'm coming up behind you. You make a cough or you scuff your feet, like you just want to be present of other people's space as well.

Yeah, you know, to the point you made there sometimes feels like a futility to all of these precautions. Right. Because the implication is the women that do suffer from violence is that they weren't cautious enough. But of course we know there's not that's not true there's kind of this randomness to it all right. And I mean for me I have all of these measures I tend not to go out too late by my thu- th- th- th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th to th to th to th th the to the the the the the to the the the to to the the the their their to their to their their their their the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their to to the to te te tea tea teatea teatea to to tea to to to tha the to thea their thea the of these measures. I tend not to go out too late by myself, you know. Someone always knows where I am and where I'm expected to, when I'm expected to be back. Some of that is just growing up African, your parents are strict.

Where are you going? What's going up? I'm very used to, you know, you don't want to be called like a Roman ambassador because you're always to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go to go out out out to go out to go out to go out out out to go out out out out out to go out to go out to go out to go out to go out to go out to go out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the So like, I'm very used to, you know, you don't want to be called like a Roman ambassador because you're always in the street. So I feel like I'm always trying to be accountable to someone. So that's probably just like immigrant trauma really. But, um.

My parents are like, are you still here? Yeah. So it's just kind of just always just always, just always, just these, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the the the, things. I would rarely order maybe Uber eats when it's just me and my son in the house because I'm concerned about if a man sees me alone. You know you're very vulnerable as a woman when a man knows you're alone you know so oftentimes I'll send my husband to the door or even if we have a handy man come to the house, I won't come downstairs because it's just like there's a there's a man I don't know in this house. Have you ever done that thing where you like shout as if someone's there? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. People, I live in a house not apartment, but people who come and do surveys and stuff like that. I'm just like, oh, hold on, my husband needs me. And like, I'm not married.

You know, it's just, yeah. Just put that, that act, you learn to pretend quickly and use it as some sort of shield because from experience, I have learned that men will defer to men. And, you know, a woman will tell you if a man comes up to you and a man and a man and a man and a man and a man and a man and a man a man a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, a man, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, to.................... to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, the too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too if a man comes up to you and asks for your phone number, if you say, oh, I have a husband or I have a boyfriend, they will respect that invisible man, far more than the woman they see in front of them. So you just learn to do all of these things. And far more than a woman saying, no, I'm not interested.

Yeah. That's not enough. He will rather respect this mythical this mythical this mythical thiiiiiiiiii, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not. that's not. that's not. that's not. that's not. that's not. that's not that's not. that's not. that's not. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's not. that's not. that's not that's not that's not not not not not not not not theauiauiauiauiauiauia. the the the the the the that's not the that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not that's not enough. He would rather respect this mythical creature, this mythical boyfriend or husband, than respect your consent in wanting to engage. So how do we get to this place? Like, why is the burden on women to stay safe than on men to change their behavior? Oh. yeah. That's a deep question. I don't want to make it seem like I walk around every moment of every day with this

like hyper-vigilance. Like, I don't. In general, I feel safe in my life and in the life I've carved out. Sometimes going to unfamiliar places, my, you know, I have my spidey senses are a little heightened. I think that to answer that question, the simplest answer to me, why has there been this entitlement is because they can and because all of the systems of our world, you know, from the judiciary to law enforcement to all these major systems, education, they all started, you know, by men with men in mind. You know, I'm talking more specifically about this country, but I think it's

true of other countries as well, that like men write the rules, men make the rules, men, you know, in many countries still today, control the literal behavior of the women around them, all the women around them. And so I think it feels to me like we're going through a growth period, even just having this conversation. We didn't have these conversations when I was like in college, you know, a bazillion years ago or whatever. So I do think it's growth. Well, let's backtrack for a second first.

Before the next question I have for you. Let's talk about the different types of violence against women because so far we're talking about, you know, home invasion or someone kidnapping, but if you could, Rachel, break down, you know, some of the other ways that men can abuse or create some sort of domestic discomfort terrorism, I'm going to use the word, create a little domestic terrorism on people that doesn't necessarily involve physical violence or physical harm. Yeah, that's a good question.

I mean, there's a reason that my book is called No Visible Bruises, right? It's like, so, you know, there's emotional abuse, there's psychological abuse, and there's coercive behavior.... For. For. For, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, thiiii.ea, the the the the the the thea, the the the the the the the the the thi, the emotional abuse, there's psychological abuse, and there's coercive behavior. For example, I covered the Orlando Pulse trial, that Omar Mantine killed, you know, 49 people. The nightclub shooting. And his, he had been married twice, so he was, it was his second marriage when the shooting

happened. And with both women, he had been incredibly controlling. So with his second wife, he moved her 3,000 miles across the country where she had no one. She was from California and he moved her to Florida. She didn't drive and he wouldn't let her drive. So she was really isolated. She didn't have her name on the bank accounts, and he would give her money to spend for her and her son

every week. None of these are physical violence. And in fact, none of them are against the law. It's just a way of coercing and controlling somebody. Now he did actually strangle both women non-fatal, non-fatally, obviously. And in Florida, in fact, in most states, if you're convicted of non-fatal strangulation, it can carry a 10-year prison sentence, but he was never convicted. But he was never convicted. I mean, he could have, should have been in prison when that Orlando pulse shooting

happened, but he was never charged and never convicted. So, you know, that's two types of violence, one not. But there's a lot of way, I mean, I I I I I I I I I I I I I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, and there, and there, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, th. And th. And th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, that's two types of violence, one physical, one not. But there's a lot of way, I mean, there's another, there's another guy in my book who went out into the countryside, they lived in Montana, went out into the countryside and got a rattlesnake and brought it home and he kept it in a cage and told his wife that he was going to put it in bed with her or put it in the shower with her if she did anything that pissed him off. You don't have to physically be violent to control somebody. And there's no, there's only two states with laws against coercive control right now, and they're both brand new and really haven't been tested. Yeah.

And you know, especially in this digital age, there's so many ways where you can terrorize a woman without even physically seeing her or touching her. You can leak her nudes. You can threaten to leak any intimate videos or photos you've taken. You can create fake Instagram and Twitter accounts and follow her every move and whether it's a Snapchat. You know, there's women that say, he was following me on Snapchat and turning up to where I was because if you know, like geolocations now, right?

It's very easy to find where people are. Doxing. There are just so many ways that if a man wants to make a woman's life incredibly difficult but still be within the limits of the law, he can do so. And it's quite terrified. For both of you then, what are social media companies, because on the other side of the break, I want to talk about, oh, Kanye and Kim and my friend Pete Davidson. But what are, what are, what are you all, in your eyes, the two of you, what do you think social media companies are doing right now to try and regulate that

type of behavior? Is enough happening in that regard? Because it feels like if I can get a rattlesnake or I can intimidate you, I can drive by your job, that's more individual one-on-one. But social media is a space. It's regulated. There are moderators, at least they claim that there's moderates. Who are supposed to be monitoring and policing and regulating that type of behavior? Are social media companies doing enough? I'm not an expert on that in any ways. I think we know that they are kind of

failing in a lot of areas in terms of racial harassment, abuse. A lot of women do not feel safe on Twitter or YouTube or even streaming on Twitch because of what they'll see in the comment section. I know Instagram has a feature now that if you block someone, you can also put the option to block any other accounts they create. But for some of these men or sometimes women who are incredibly obsessive and determined, that type of safe measures is simply not enough. But I think even if we resolve some of the social media piece

and make tech companies ensure that everyone that has, say, a Twitter account is someone who's not anonymous and they have to be a real human being, and et cetera, it's such a wider societal problem, it just doesn't get to the root and the heart of the issue. And I think that's the big problem. I think part of the problem is they're not regulated, right? We as society are relying on them to, you know, have our best interest at heart. Like, there's a group of 20 people reading every post on Facebook. Like it's just, it's an algorithm and sometimes it catches it, sometimes it doesn't. Lately I I've been getting these emails that go through, I have a website and I have a,

I have someone else who gets that email for me. It doesn't come directly to me and they keep sending the same thing like, Rachel Snyder has a lot to answer for with pictures of me pulled from all over the web. And that's it. There's no threat. There's no direct question about what it is I have something to answer for. And I, you know, I, yeah, it makes me nervous. I have a kid. I, you know, live where I live. I've alerted campus security where I'm a professor. So, but what can you do? None of it is against the law and none of it is specific, you know? Yeah, it's a very great area.

Well after the break, I want to talk a little bit about Kim Kardashian and Kanye West and how Christian and the Daily Showwriters almost got Trevor No into a fight with Kanye West. Almost. It was a real fight. He might have I want you to explain yourself. Almost. It was a real fight. He might have came up here. You never know. It was during a hiatus week so Kanye couldn't come fight us. What he is that? It's beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Before the break we were talking a little bit about Kim Kardashian and Kanye West and

everything that Kanye has been doing against her. And we did a segment on that on the show. Well, Trevor did. I want to say we in case Kanye come up here and try to fight. Trevor did it, Kanye. But that's probably one of the most high-profile examples of harassment that we have right now. You know, Johnny Depp and Amber Heard as well, but Christiana, we spoke on Kim and Kanye on the show. How did you all decide how to tackle this topic? Because this isn't a typical daily show piece. You know, we're told

the night before what's going to be on the show the next day and sometimes so we can just read up more on the stories or just know what's happening and when I saw in slack that we were doing Kim and Kanye I was like oh that's surprising when anything involved a Kardashian it immediately becomes tabloid and we historically don't toucest tabloid. And we historically don't touch tabloid stories. So there was this, just the very natural reluctance that comes with us, like, why are we doing this very tabloid story? And then there was some trepidation,

because it involves minors. You know, they have children, and there's something icky about discussing such a public dispute when there are children at the center of it. And even though these are children that are on reality TV a lot, this just feels a lot more sensitive and like there are so many landmines for lack of a better word about how we could weave it and do it well and again remember we're a comedy show so we're going to be making jokes, right? So it's's the task is incredibly difficult but the feeling was from Trevor and Trevor and myself spoke about it that even though this was

quote-unquote being viewed as a tabloid story that it was really a microcosm of so many themes that happen in society in general, and there were bigger lessons to learn from it. And Kim, despite her vast wealth and resources, was kind of emblematic of what so many women are going through right now, and they're not being believed, and people treating it like a joke, and everyone is standing by watching this escalating behavior and not spotting them as red flags. So I think that being our entry point made what was a very difficult and tricky process made it a

lot easier and then you know from the comedy side I what I found funny and it was a joke that did make the segment was just like you know Kim in her effort to the comedy side I what I found funny and it was a joke that did make the segment was the site you know Kim in her effort to kind of rebrand has gone down this social justice route and she's training she's trying to do the bar or whatever and in her spare time she frees black men from jail right that's that's what kind of hobbies right now black women too so what are the optics of you like freeing black men from jail in your the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their segment is their segment is their segment is their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the too. Black women too. So what are the optics of you like free and black men from jail in your spare time and calling the police on the black man who happens to be your ex-husband harassing you?

Like, she's kind of in this real, branding, real life conundrum, which isn't funny, but it's also funny, right? And we're just talking about that, like, there are many reasons why she can't call the police, but there is probably on her part, like this looks hypocritical. I'm supposed to be like this abolitionist. So we were just teasing through the comedy in the complications of it all,

but still trying to convey the gravitas of the situation and our belief that Kim could be in grave danger. Even, even someone like me, I was like so tuned in to these issues. And it's like when I heard that monologue from him, I was like, yes, of course, even I had this like casual celebrity relationship to her, like I don't care about all that. There's a lot of people go like, Kardashian, she loves publicity, she loves celebrity, she loves all of this, she does the Kardashians, this is her life, this is her thing. Yeah, and I get it, but there's also an element of a woman saying to her ex, hey, please

leave me alone. You know what I mean? What I see from this situation, I see a woman who wants th, who th, who to to th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thus, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thri, throoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, the, thi with what I see from this situation, I see a woman who wants to live her life without being harassed by an ex-boyfriend or an ex-hospent or an ex-anything. What she's going through is terrifying to watch, and it shines a spotlight on what so many women go through when they choose to leave. You know, people always say that phrase to women, they go like, why didn't you leave? Oh, why didn't you leave? Why didn't you leave? Yeah, because a lot of women realize when they do leave, the guy will get even crazier. And when I say crazy, I don't mean mental health crazy. I'm like, it's, you understand what I mean. You know, the point is that Kim Kardashian and countless other women, they find th. th. thine, thine, thine, thine, thine, thine, thine, thine, thine, thine, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, when thi, when thi, when th, when th, when th, when thi, when th, when th, when thi, when thi, when th, when th, when th, when th, when the the the the the the the the the the th, when th. thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, thi they they they they the is they they they they they they the thea. thea thea thea thea thea the the the thi th you know? Because asking Kanya to stop clearly isn't helping. If Kim cannot escape this, Kim Kardashian, if she cannot escape this, then what chance do normal women have? Roy will tell you, Trevor

and I have a very interesting dynamic in relationship. We kind of like butt heads a lot, and that's I think how we produce some really good stuff. We don't always agree, but there's a deep respect there. And it was just one of these things that I had been on sabbatical, and I'd been talking a lot about it on my Instagram. And Trevor follows me on Instagram, so he was seeing a lot of what I was saying about this particular case. And then he was like, he didn't know I was back off sabbatical. and they they th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and th and I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, I was like, th. thre, I was saying, I was, thr-I was, th-a, th-a, I was, I was, th. th. thee, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was saying, I was, I was saying, I was saying, I was thi. thi. thi. thi, I was thi, I was thi. thi. thi, I was thi, I was thi, I'm thi. thi. thr-a, thr-a, thin, thin, thin, th. too. th. too. too. too. th thi. thi. thi. thi., he wanted to do it on the show, but he didn't know I was back off sabbatical. And then he reached out, I was like,

Christian, I'm doing Kim Kay tomorrow, like, it's gonna be weird because you're not here. And I'm like, no, I'm back. And we kind of just brainstormed it and just did a lot of talking. And I just gave him my whole spiel about it. smaller meeting with the other producers and our showrunner and then yeah it really it really came together and I think we were like buzzing for about a week afterwards because of the conversation it generated that felt so

important Trevor said that he was biking down Hudson Highway and some dude was jogging and then ran after him and said I want to say thank you to you for what you said about Kim Kardashian I never saw it that way but now I'm different it was like I'm looking at a the the the the the the th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th th th th th th th th th th th th th th I was like I was like I was like I'm thing thing I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm the the the theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee the to say thank you to you thought you said about Kim Kardashian. I never saw it that way, but now I'm different. It was like, I'm looking at you try and making allies. I know, that's the thing. A lot of men were like, I don't like those Kardashians, but wow, this is horrible. Like the way people really be like oh you know what if it's not it's

not right so it felt like important you know. Totally and coming from him it's the you know if I said it I'd get like you know two likes or what it can't come from a woman that's what I explained that to him I was like look the reason it's resonating so much it's a the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th I I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th. th. th. I th. I'm th. th. I'm th. I th. I th. th. I'm thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. th. him. I was like, look Trevor, the reason it's resonating so much, it's a bit like racism when white people say this is racist, everyone's like, oh wow, this must really be racist. So if a man comes out and says, this is violence. Yeah, yeah, yeah, let me show you how to look at this. Because the bar men have for violence, they always feel that women are being hysterical. So for Trevor to be like, hey guys, I'm not saying he's going to do anything, but we may need to just step back. So then Rachel, to that point, what are some of the examples that you've seen in Kanye's behavior that are textbook examples of this of the harassment and

abuse that women deal with when trying to leave a relationship? Yeah, and that's a good question because my guess is that what thi that what that what thi that's that's thi that's thi that's thi thi that's thi thi thi thi thi thi that's thi thi thi thi thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi thi's the is thi's the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is the is thi is thi is thi is thi thi is thi is thi thi the is the is the is the is the is the is thean thean thean toean. toean thean thean toean. toean. toean thean to thean th guess is that what we're seeing on the outside is just the tip of the iceberg. You know, there have been the text, there's been the manipulation of his social media, right? So he has this kind of like hidden army behind him. There's been the children used as leverage, right? Like, oh, you know, I was not allowed to go to the birthday par. I wasn't told that, you know, there's that kind of stuff. And the video, which I'm sure we'll talk about, but it's the collective of that that is concerning to me and not just the collective, but the escalation of it, where it's like he's u to get help and whatever and I, you know, I hope that's true and that he does get help. But it's, it's the escalation which I think the most extreme is the video, right? Like it all kind of leads up to that video.

We're talking about the Pete Davidson, where he threatened Pete Davidson in a music. Yeah, yeah. I know that he hides behind his art, right? He says, I'm an artist. This is just art. But really, you could then choose anybody, right? Like you actually have Pete Davidson's name in your song. So it's not art when it's a threat. Like, there's a threat. Yeah, I don't buy a house across the street from your soon-to-be-ex wife is exactly art. Right, right. That's kind of a jerk move.

Yeah, it's this stocking, this harassment. She's been very good about not making too many public statements, but she's made a few. And even that, I feel like, fuels him. Fueles the type of person that he is to like up the game to him. Christiana, the thing that I found very interesting about Trevor's piece is that you're looking at an abusive dynamic between Kim and Kanye and for the people that have read Trevor's book and know Trevor's history. Trevor is a child that grew up in an abusive home. So he's seen a lot of the stuff that is starting to mirror itself now. How much of a decision was there for th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. I th. I I th. I th. th. I I I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. theee. thee. theeeee. theeee. thee. thee. the. the. the. th mirror itself now. How much of a decision was there for Trevor to put his own emotions into the segment?

Because I felt like somewhere underneath all of that, there was still a piece of compassion for Kanye and wanting Kanye to get better. It didn't seem like a full-blown vilification, like a dunk on him, like you weren't dunking as much as it was acknowledging the behavior, acknowledging how corrosive it is, and trying to find solutions. We were very keen not to villainize anybody in this piece, right? Because I think that's the instinct that the public lean towards, you know, we need to have a villain in this story, you need to have a hero in the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the instinct that the public lean towards. We need to have a villain in this story,

you need to have a hero in this story, you need to have a perfect victim in this story, and it's really complicated. Kanye has also been very open about his mental health struggles over the years, and they've been courageous and been candid about the difficulties he had, and not to use his mental illness as a root to justify any of the story the story the story the story the story the story the story the story the story the story the story the story to the story the story to the story to to the story to the story to the story story story story story to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the story the story to to the story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story to to to to to the story story, the story, the story story, the story story, the story story to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to and been candid about the difficulties he had, and not to use his mental illness as a route to justify any of this behavior, because that's not the case.

But that was really important context for us, that there are times when Kanye is unwell, there's times when he's lucid, you know, he's a very complicated man, but none of that justified what was happening. So we were very to to their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. theconomic theconomic theckecke. the. theateckeckeckeckeckeckia. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the is the is the is the is the is the. the. the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I've the. I've the. I've the. I've the. I've the. I've the. I've theateeeeeeeeeeeeeeanananeeeeeeaneeeaneaneaneeaneeeaneaneaneateeane but none of that justified what was happening. So we were very keen to say, okay, what Kanye is doing is terrible. It's harassment, but we're not here to beat Kanye up, or beat men like Kanye up. We didn't think that was a productive way to frame things, because it just wouldn't land. It would have gone over the heads of a lot of people who, interesting enough, so many

people were team Karni. That was where the public discourse was at that point. And anyone that came up against Karnia in a specific way, and was like, Kani is a villain. They weren't hearing it. So we were like, okay, Kani is doing a really bad thing and we need to get people who don't see that to see that. We also need really need to make it clear about what Kim is going through and we also knew that there is an audience that was unsympathetic because she's incredibly wealthy. She has this reality show. She's seen as a low-brow celebrity who has notalent, even though I think her talent is like making money.

What do you think was going to happen when you got with Klam? Yeah, exactly. There's a fake booty, you'd be stealing ideas from black women. There's the appropriation piece, there's the whorephobia, and the fact that this empire was kind of built on a sex take. There are so many the the the the the the the the the the tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thin, the, the, the, tho, tho, tho, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, you're thin. You're thin. You're thin. You're thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, you are are are thin. You you are thin. You you are thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, you're thooooan, you're thoan, you're thoan, you're thoan, you're thin, you're going thin, you're thin, you're thin, you're thin, you want to receive it when they hear that Kim Kardashian, a woman like Kim Kardashian, is being harassed and stalked. They just don't get it. So we were conscious of all the nuances of the piece going into it and just trying to cover each part of the argument.

And of course, you heard Trevor say a lot. I'm not saying that Kanye is going to kill Kim or God forbid that happens, but he's just saying, the they, they, they, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people, that people that people that people, that people, that people that people, that that that that that that that that that that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that people that, that people that people, that people, that people, that people, that people that people, that people, that people that people, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi's thi, thi, thi, thi, th Kanye is going to kill Kim or God forbid that happens, but he was just saying the warning signals are here and he was able to spot those signals, I think, because of his personal experience. But I will say that, you know, when you work with Trevor on a headline, he's not something, he's quite journalistic in the sense that he doesn't necessarily want to insert himself in the story. That's not something, he's quite journalistic in the sense that he doesn't necessarily want to insert himself in the story. That's not his impulse. His impulse is actually to kind of be like, impartial observer in times and then at the end he'll kind of give his take. I feel he was a bit reluctant to tell the personal side of his story, not because he's not courageous enough to do that.

He's been really open about his life. But the the the the the th, but th, but the th, but th, but th, but th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, he's, he's, he's, thi, thi, he's, thi, he's, he's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, is, thi, is, thi, is is thi, thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is not thi, is not thi, is not thi, is not thi, is not thi, is not thi, is not thi, is not thi, is not thi, is a toei, is not toei, is not thi, is not thi.ei.ei. He's thi, is not thi, is not th courageous enough to do that. He's been really open about his life, but there was a feeling that perhaps that would color the entire piece, but in my view, Trevor's personal story was perhaps one of the most powerful parts of that segment because he has been a witness to that type of violence and intimidation and harassment and he was saying, guys, this is also coming from a very personal connection. And I feel the audience found that compelling as kind of a end note to this entire monologue that he did. He built a really strong case and then he brought himself into the story. I grew up my whole life in an abuse of household, right? Most of my life, let's say from the age of nine to whatever, 16,

one of the things I found most interesting was how often people told my mom that she was overreacting. What I found interesting was how many times people told my mom to calm down, people told my family to calm everyone, you know, and everyone had different reasons. Oh, I remember once we went to to to the police the police the police to the police the police the police the police the police the police the police the police the police the police to the police station and they said to my mom, oh, but did you talk back? Is that why you're here? You know, oh, but what did you say to it? It's all these questions, all these questions. I remember seeing this as a child, by the way. You see this as a child, you know?

And you see a world where women are questioned what is happening to them, as opposed to people questioning what is happening to them. And for years, people said this shit, ah, no, this, ah, you know, this, this, this, this, that happens, there's everyone, police, some family, stranger, whatever it was, whatever it was. And I'll never forget one day, I got a call from my brother saying, thi thiiii. saying, hey, mom has just been shot in the head. She's in the hospital now, she's just been shot. And I'm not saying it to make it about me. I'm just saying maybe that's why I look at the story differently,

to be honest with you, is I go, it seems like nothing. And again, I'm not saying Kanye will, please. I'm not saying he will. But you see it in all these stories where people say, we saw it, but we didn't, whether it's the people around him, whether it's the people in their lives, whether it's us as a society condoning or not condoning, and I know it's nuanced, I know, I'm not saying kind of just a bad guy, please.

But just as a society, man, we have to ask ourselves questions. Do we wish to stand by and watch a car crash when we thought we saw it coming? Or do we at least want to say, hey, slow down, let's all put our hazards on, because there's a storm right now and some shit might go down? Let's just put our hazards on, if it doesn't happen, hey, the worst thing we did was we all had our hazards on like idiots? I'll be fine to say Ithan to be in one way I say, man, I wish we didn't think the whole thing wasn't worth looking at. It was beautiful and it was I

love what you said about not essentially not taking away Kanye's humanity because that's that's how we don't solve problems is by flattening the other person, right? I spend a lot, I've spent a lot of time with abusers and they're interesting because they're sort of simultaneously out of control and in control at the same time, you know. And they're usually filled with shame about their behavior too. It's not like they're doing this and they feel good about it. They feel, as one researcher said to me, I've never met a happy abuser ever. I mean, they're not happy either. Yeah. Trevor in a ridiculously long Instagram post about Kanye and really, I don't know, this must be like some special celebrity Instagram.

He got, because this man, it is like 10, 15 paragraphs. But one part of it that really, really stuck out and touched me, you know, he said, it breaks my heart to see you like this. I don't care if you support Trump. I don't care if you roast Pete. I do, however care when I see you on a path that's dangerously close to peril and pain. I've woken up too many times and read headlines about men who've killed their exes, their kids, and then themselves. I never want to read that about you.

If you're just joking about it all, then I'm an idiot for caring, and so be it. But I'd rather be the idiot who said something to you in life than the cool guy who said nothing and then mourned you in prison or the grave. Yeah. We're... Gosh, he should write a book. Right. It's amazing. Right. It's amazing. I got goosebumps.

You know, and in a time where so many people can just ride the way the media set this up. It's Kanye crazy. Kim tripping. Man, let that man that man that man that man that man that that that that that that then then then then then then then then then then then then then then then then then then the the the the' the' thuuant thearned the' the' thearned the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And thuunne thuan thuan thuan thuan thu' thin thea thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean the the the thean thean It's Kanye crazy. Kim tripping. Man, let that man see his kids. Yeah. Like what role does the media play in shaping the one-sidedness of it all? Because no one can find the nuance in the middle and I know that the media plays a role in it. So you, journalists, what did you do wrong? Yeah, I mean what I would say it. I have a lot to say about this, so sit back. No. How does the media help shape this narrative that keeps people from? We've minimized the problems, the problems of wealthy famous people.

We put them on a pedestal, right? So that's a particular problem with Kim and Kanye, that we don't feel for her because how could she have problems when she's rich or she's beautiful or she has this perfect butt or whatever. But I think there's a bigger problem with the media in minimizing domestic violence as a whole. I mean, if I could take the phrase domestic dispute and like blow it off the landscape of media forever I would because we're talking

about crime and there's no other crime I can think of where we downplay it and call it a dispute. Like Omar Mateen non-fatally strangling his first wife or a second wife is not a domestic dispute. It's attempted murder and we need to call it what it is. To me it also just feels like sexism right? No one cares about the pain of women. People don't take it seriously, right? It's not seen as valid pain. And my anger at the media narrative about Kim and Kanye, before we'd done that segment, was that everyone was treating it like a joke. There was this he, he, he, ha, ha, part.

It was, Kanye's put a truck full of roses outside of Kim's house. Like, all of it, he's fighting for his family. Right, people's, it was funny and I was looking at like, this is scary. Love makes you crazy. Yeah, it was just, it was seen as a funny kind of tabloid spat rather than a really insidious domestic. I always tell my daughter, like, if a man hires an orchestra to come play on your lawn, like that's not romantic, run, run as fast as you can. It's kind of like grand gestures.

I mean, it's used so much now, I kind of hate the phrase but love bombing, you know, so all of this stuff he was doing. And I was looking at it, and I thought, I am scared for this woman. And the only other people I saw saying that were other women, but the media coverage, just the way the story was framed, was not framed as this is a mother and a wife, who is in danger in some sort of peril. It was like Kim K. You know doesn't want Kanye's flowers. Ha ha ha ha. He's doing his best. It was weird. And even if it goes south it's just called a crime of passion.

Like it's still like well you love you'd be tripping sometimespping sometimes. You know he's still a good person. How do how do women who don't have the resources and the the high level of celebrity that Kim Kardashian have, how do we get the media to even look at these stories? Because there's a million Kim Kardashian's happening on a regular basis in this country, especially women of color. How do we get the media to start turning their eyes towards those those those those those those those those those those those those those those those those those those th th thos thos thos thos tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho-the tho-thea, thea, thea, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thes. thes. their thes. thes. thes. thes. thes. thes. thes. thes. thes. thes, thea. thea. te. te. te. to. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. the. How do we get the media to start turning their eyes towards those types of stories? I have no idea, and I think the distressing thing about all of this is if a woman with Kim Kardashian's resources and visibility and wealth is this vulnerable, and the world kind of just looks on and laughs what does it mean for the woman who's undocumented and is afraid to go into the police station because there's a language barrier and she's afraid of

getting deported and her abuser uses that against her and her community are using that against her. What does that say about a woman who's being financially abused and doesn't have access to her bank account and has no idea about an escape route? Because the reason we didn't want to villainize Kanye is because abusers are very complicated people. There are so many men that people, he'd never beat his wife. He's the nicest guy ever, right? You know, they're really charismatic and charming. And we wanted to make it clear that the men that are doing this to women in your everyday life

are often like Kanye in the sense that you're enamored with a part of them. You really like them. They make you feel good. But there's also a side to them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them th th th them tham tham tham tham that's tham that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's them, they make you feel good. But there's also a side to them that's much darker. And I don't know how we make that change where people are actually really concerned by the about the underprivileged and under-resourced women, or us even learning the super wealthy women, who perhaps become stay-at-home moms and relied on their husband for income

for the last 15 to 20 years. They're vulnerable too too too too to to to to to to th, it, it, it, it, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's th, it's thiuuuile, and I don't thoome, and I don't thio, and I don't thiol-and tho, and I don't, and I don't, and I don't, and I don't, and I don't, and I don't, and I th. and I th. And I th. And I th. And I th. And I th. And I th. And I th. And I th. And I th. And I th. And I thii-a, thi-a, thi-a, thi-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-s. thi-i-s. thi-i-s, tho'-si-i-i-i-i-i-ioli-i-ioli-ioli-iolioli-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-n moms and relied on their husband for income for the last 15 to 20 years. They're vulnerable too. It's a really hard thing because I don't think most people understand how difficult it is for one woman to escape, especially the lower on the socioeconomic lad as she is. There was research done by a woman named Joan Meyer at George Washington University. She did research on custody cases where there were custody disputes she is. There was research done by a woman named Joan Meyer at George Washington University. She did research on custody cases where there were custody disputes and found that in 25% of the cases where abuse was alleged by a woman, they lost the kids. They lost the kids.

The woman lost the kids. So, you know, abusers use that. I'm going to have your kids taken away from you. And it works, it works, right? There's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, their, their, their, their, their, where, where, where, their, where, where, their, their, where, where, where, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, there. there's, there's, their, there's, there's, there's, there's, their, there's, there's, there's, they.e.a, there's, there's, th.a. th. there's, th. their, where, where, their, where going to have your kids taken away from you. And it works, it works, right? There's a, there's, you know, there's a guy that I spoke with years ago a researcher who talked about how abusers, just like you say, Christian are, they're charming. That's how they get victims in the first place. They're often very, very quick courtships. I'm completely skeptical of fast courtships now, I have to admit, and they mess up victims' lives because we want our victims to be a certain

way, right? We all have, I mean, I think even if you weren't a child of the 80s like I was, you still have an image of like the burning bed, right? Like that's your image, and the fact is, like, that's not realistic. You know, people can't leave, women can't leave because bureaucracy holds you in place. You can't, you know, get the name of your husband off your checking account without his permission interacting with him. You can't sign your kids up for another school. I did a story on a woman who had been to shelter in and out of shelters for 20 years,

she tried to leave. They had two girls and he got really smart. The last time she tried to leave she went to a shelter in Maine, she lived in Massachusetts and he wrote a letter to the school system saying you know such and such has taken off she's unstable, she's bipolar, I'm afraid that she's going to do something with the kids, so don't let her register the kids out of school without my permission. I mean, that's... Right.

And he's... And he ended up killing her, you know, and killed himself. So they know, our systems lock victims in place every bit as much as our own sort of social responsibility to not minimize this and not marginalize victims. After the break, I want to talk about solutions to these issues. And I want to talk about the phrase toxic masculinity. That's, that's, that's, I just saw you shift in your seat. Okay, all right, yeah, we don't talk about that. It's beyond the scene, we'll be right back.

You know, we talk about these events of violence, but we usually only talk about them after something terrible has happened. On the prevention side, ladies, what can we do to keep these crimes from happening in the first place? That's a good question. I will say that other countries are doing some interesting things. There's, in the UK, for example, there's a violence prevention hotline that anybody, men or women, although it is 80% men who call, can call and get help if they are in a moment that is problematic. I'll say problematic. And, you know, it's not a solution

in that it's going to, you know, solve violence against women forever and ever, but it is what you're trying to do, what you're trying to do is disrupt a moment of violence or potential violence. And so I think it's a useful tool. In the states, we just signed, reauthorized the Violence Against Women Act. It had been sort of stagnant for, since 2013, roughly. And for the first time ever, they have earmarked funds to figure out what works in anti-violence prevention programs. And so I think, to me, that's a really positive step that we're sort of talking about, not, not, not, not, the, the, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, to, to, to the, to to to the, to the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the violence, the violence, the violence, the violence, the violence, the violence, the violence, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toeffice, toe, toe, toe, the, toe, somea, toeffice, toe, toethat we're sort of talking about not just how to stop the violence before it happens, but how to keep victims in their community and in their families

because you know we haven't talked about this and we probably don't have a lot of time but shelter is not a very good response to like take you know a whole family out of everything familiar, allow them to like take, you know, a whole family out of everything familiar, allow them two suitcases, stick them in one room, you know. So I do think there's a lot of solutions out there, and I don't think that they are necessarily law enforcement solutions. I think that law enforcement often makes a terrible situation much, much worse, and that we need to, like, in certain cities in San Diego, in I think Baltimore here in Washington, D.C.

We have programs where, and I think Denver has one, where domestic violence advocates will go on calls with police officers. And I think that's really, really important because just the police as a presence with all of their gear and their tactical stuff, like they're giant. They're almost like machines. And they walk into a room, they're intimidating, right? So-

You're perceived to make the situation worse. Yeah. And to Rachel's point about, you know, police not being the solution. I'll say that the subculture, for lack of a better word, I grew up in in South London was predominantly made up of West African and West Indian immigrants, right? And if I speak from the vantage point of that particular subculture, civic institutions have a lot of power, let's say. So whether that's the church, whether those are like community groups that are linked to your tribe or your clan, whether those are mosques, local community centers, these civic institutions and the people that run them, so pastors and

imams and the deacons, etc., have a huge amount of authority over what people do, right? You know, if you're having medical issues, you go to your pastor, you're like, you know, I'm just talking about the way immigrants subcultures and subcultures in China tend to work. And from my perspective, I think that a lot of community-based training needs to happen in a lot of civic institutions, about understanding what abuse is, and understanding who a victim is, and understanding that every man can't be rehabilitated, and that women need to be protected,

and children need to be protected. And when a woman comes forward, she shouldn't be ostracized, she shouldn't be told to stay, but we also need to give her the means to escape. That means she remains within the community, because it's actually the isolation that means a lot of you leave the man, you leave the community. And for people I would say, especially of minority descent, if you're of African or Asian extent, where being community, it's more about the collective than the individual, that is

incredibly devastating because you lose your cousins, you lose so much. I think a big part of the solution is going into all of these subcultures, all of these communities are specifically looking at, like, okay, how do we work with these local synagogues about spotting abuse and how they can help their women? Because those are really, those civic institutions have so much power that they can use for good, but oftentimes they're ill-equipped, right? You know, they think, oh, okay, if you just pray, it will go away, keep praying for him,

keep praying for him, and next thing, you know, it's a funeral. You're burying that woman. So we need to really work through these civic institutions in my mind and with various community leaders and helping them being able to support women and men, because women aren't the only ones being abused that need to leave these type of situations. Rachel, where are we with the legislation? And, you know, is there a way to make restraining orders tougher? Like, where are we on the, I guess, on the legal side of things?

We have really good legislation. We just don't enforce it. We have, you know, a ban on convicted felons owning guns. But if you have a misdemeanor domestic violence charge and you live in Mississippi, no one's going to take your gun. So I think that it's a matter of enforcing the legislation that we do have. Now, there are a couple of states that have passed coercive control laws where you can't, you can't, you know, coerce someone into, you know, doing what you want them to do or whatever. California has passed a coercive control off Connecticut. And then there's a few other states looking at them.

I'm not sure where they're at right now. I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I their, I their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tho, tho, tho, their, their, their, their, their, their states, their states, their states, their states, their states, their states, their states, their states, their states, their states, their. tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho. And, thoooo.a.a.a.a, tho.a.a.a.a. A. A. thoo. A. A. tha. A. A. tha, thathere's a few other states looking at them. I'm not sure where they're at right now. I know Maryland and New York were looking at them. And then the other piece of it is offering parole to victims who essentially killed their way out of a violent relationship. It was a killer be killed kind of situation. And so there's a lot of states now looking at their parole and probation boards and seeing if there's alterations they can make New York past one a few years ago, California. Wasn't there a woman in Florida who was taking in for simply firing warning shots

at her abusive husband for a pension? Yeah, same time, the same time Trayvon Martin was killed. Yeah, she was sentenced to 20 years. She's out now now, but now, but now, but now, but now, but now, but now, but now, but that, but that, but that's out now, that's that's th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, their, their, their, their, their, they, wasn't, wasn't, wasn't, wasn't, wasn't, wasn't, wasn't, wasn't, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, thi, they.. th. thii. the the the thi. the the the the the the the thi, the th now, but you know, that's it, that's an interesting example because that's one of the states that has stand your ground laws. And stand your ground laws were meant to kind of address the shortcomings of self-defense, like, you know, what if it wasn't somebody breaking into your house, but it was somebody threatening you out on the street. So all these states have stand your ground laws, which is, does seem to be like a growing movement.

And yet, stand your ground laws, women almost can never use stand your ground laws, almost never. So a lot of the problem isn't with the legislation itself. It's with the gender discrimination and the bias when it's implemented. Yeah, and to speak to the legislation part I think for black women especially engaging with the justice system comes with a lot of historical baggage. Yeah. It starts with do you feel comfortable calling the police? Are the police going to shoot you when they arrive right?

These are the questions going to shoot you when they arrive, right? These are the questions going through a black woman who's being abused mind. If I have a teenage son at home, are they going to misidentify my teenage son as a suspect, not my abuser. There are a lot of subterranean issues here that we need to unpack. Because we can we can have great policy and great legislation but what happens when you can't afford a lawyer? You know I think there's a really significant population of women who are at greater risk of domestic abuse who even when we put the right legislation in place will still not be able to access it and the law really

work on their favor in the way it needs to. Right. And do you want to put someone in prison who is from your own marginalized community already? Which a lot of people don't want, right? And you know I think the abolitionist had really kind of brought this conversation to the fore about prison not necessarily being the solution, especially if that man is going to be out at some point. And we've seen so many cases of men going to prison for domestic abuse, doing their stint, coming out, killing another woman.

Right? So we're kind of putting this problem away for a certain amount of time. So if we look at the idea of restorative justice and what that looks like in some communities that may need to be the model that's prioritized because those women don't want their abuser in jail, they want their abuser to stop abusing them and abusing other people, but they're not going to engage with the justice system or law enforcement. So we need to figure out so how do we the the the the the the the the the the the the to the to their their to their their their to their their to their their their their their we their to their their their their their their. their. their their their. their. their.a. their.a.a.a.a. their.a.a. their.a.a. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the. thiii. the. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their their toooooooooooooooesesesesuuuu.ea.ea.ea.ea. Soea.ea. So. So, tooothe justice system or law enforcement. So we need to figure out, so how do we help and protect them? Okay, so then let's end with this. Men! Garbage, as, terrible, ass.

Men. What role can men play in ending the culture of misogyny and violence against women? Because we talk about the phrase, toxic masculinity, and I pulled this up, because I want to make sure that I'm defining it properly. Toxic masculinity refers to the notion that some people's idea of manliness perpetuates domination, homophobia, and aggression. So my last question to both of you, what are the ways that men can help change the culture on this issue?

You know, that's such a great question, and when I'm talking about this with the men in my life and how I intend to talk to my son about this, is that toxic masculinity, patriarchy, all of these constructs, this big academic language, it harms men too, right? It doesn't allow you to experience the fullness of your humanity. You're not allowed to be empathetic.

You're not allowed to cry when you need to. You're not allowed to express the range of your emotions. So you curtail the human experience. You're not being yourself because you're so conscious of the perception of not being a man enough. So don't think this only harms me as a woman or harms the children that look up to you. It's harming you because you become a prisoner of this construct. So that's where I always start the conversation. I'm like, this is bad for you. Because if you, you know, humans are kind of selfish, right? So if you frame it as this is bad for women,

they're like, well, fuck it, I'm not a woman. Like, you know, that's how people think about it. But if you're like, no, this is really bad for you. tho-n't thrown. This is th. This is th. This is why. This is their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th their. th th their. thr. their. th their. their. their. th this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this. this. this. th. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. th. th. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. theea. thr. th. the thr. the thea. thr. theea. So if you start from that place of like, okay, so this is what toxic masculinity does to men and how it makes you harm your self. And then you say, this is what toxic masculinity does to the people around you, like the women, the women that you love. And unfortunately, it's kind of sad that we have to use the women that men are men men men men men men men men men, men, men, men, men, men, then, then just care of a woman irrespective if she's romantically or biologically or community-wise attached to you. But for a lot of men, they're not going to care

unless that's their daughter, their mother, their sister. So you have to explain how the behavior you perpetuate, how it affects the women in your orbit. And then you say, you need to check your friends. That's what I always say. You need to check your boys because I can't do it. Like there are men that everyone knows that guy is an abuser and you still have him around. Why is that? You should be a shame. Like I'm ashamed people.

I don't care. I'll be like, why is he around? Why do you want to hang with you? You kind of using that language, like, why are you allowing this man still to have social access, even though you know he gives women drinks, he gives them a bit too many drinks so he can fondle them, even though he shouts at his girlfriend, even though he's controlling and you turn a blind eye because he's not doing it to you, but you're actually one of the few people that can check him, right? And that's that's that's that's th you you you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you thu thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, thi, th like my three-step way of unpacking this idea of

toxic masculinity and then giving them something they can, I guess, action on. And my whole thing is, and this is how my group of friends work, we see ourselves as a community and a family, and we have to be able to be radically honest with each other. If you have that type of dynamic with a man and he's a man that you know has influence you should be able to have those conversations. I mean that's kind of how I approach it. Yeah. I mean I just think there's all kinds of ways that we can slightly reframe so many of the conversations that that we're having and I have to say like I know more good men than bad and I've been in a lot the tha tha tham tham tham tham tham tham tham thin thus thus thus thus thus thus the thus thus thus thus thus thus to be thi to be to be to be to be to be to be to be thi the to be to be to be to be to be to be thi. I'm that I'm that that that that that that that that that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to be thi to be thi thi to be able to be able to be able to be able to be able to be to be to be to to be to to to be to to to to be to be that that that to be th know more good men than bad and I've been in a lot of prisons so I know a lot of bad men. Yeah, I completely agree. It's just like I I think I can have this optimism about having

conversations about toxic masculinity because my father, my husband, my cousins, like my friends, I'm surrounded by like really remarkable men who are equally grieved by what men are doing to other women. So yeah we want to emphasize there are good men, more good men than bad men, but more of those good men need to speak up. Yeah, well I wish that we had more time but we are out of time. This has been an amazing conversation. Christian as always, thank you for being back on the show. It's so good to be back. Send the best to the husband and that child of yours with all of that wonderful hand.

I will. I will. And Rachel Louise Snyder, the book is no visible bruises. Thank you so much for all that you do on the journalistic side of this issue as well. Thank you both for going beyond the scenes with us today. Thank you. Thanks Roy. For further resources and support visit the National Domestic Violence Hotline at WWW the Hotline.org. See you next week. Listen to the daily show beyond the scenes on Apple Podcasts, the I-Heart Radio App or wherever you get your podcast.