The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Black Superheroes Deserve the Space to Make an Impact | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

Superheroes inspire us and help us believe we can do all that we set our minds to. Black superhero stories, however, don’t always reach mainstream audiences, leaving young Black children few characters to identify with. Host Roy Wood Jr. sits down with Daily Show writer, Ashton Womack, Daily Show senior producer, Aaron LaMarr Burleson, and contemporary artist, Hebru Brantley, to discuss how Black superhero stories have more capacity to bring authentic Black experiences to the big screen.    Beyond the Scenes is a podcast from The Daily Show. Listen to new episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts, or watch at YouTube.com/TheDaily Show See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, Years Edition, listener. It's Ronnie Chang, correspondent for the Daily Show. You're about to hear an episode of one of our original Daily Show podcast, Beyond the Scenes, hosted by Roy Wood, Jr. It's the podcast where we dive deep into the segments and topics from the Daily Show, with the show's writers, producers, and experts. This week, the show is nerning out about the world of black superheroes. Daily Show writer Ashton Womack, Daily Show

Senior Producer, Aaron Lamar Burleson, and contemporary artist Hebrew Brantley joined Roy to discuss how black superheroes can bring more authentic black stories to the big screen. If you like the show, check out the Beyond The Senes podcast wherever you get your podcast. Enjoy. Welcome to Beyond the Seams, the Daily Show podcast that goes deeper into topics and discussions and segments that originally aired on the daily show. Like this is what you got to think of this podcast. This podcast is like, you know, you know, you go to church. You go to church, you can go to heaven. This podcast is them little sandwiches you get after church. Like, you know, you go to church and you praise the Lord. But then down there in the fellowship hall, they got them little finger sandwiches and That's what this podcast is. I think that analogy works. This Black History Month, we are taking a look at a CP time I did,

not too long ago, about the history of black superheroes. And we talked about some of the more notable superheroes in black history. Give me a clip. Black superheroes are not new. In fact, they've been squeezing into Spandex for decades. They didn't as far back as 1936, when cartoonist Jay Jackson created Speed Jackson in the Chicago Defender Newspaper. Speed Jackson was a former track star at Howard University,

who was an excellent fistfighter, which may not sound powerful compared to today's superheroes with their laser eyes and sticky spider hands. But you have to think about it like sports. Today's best athletes at the pinnacle of human physicality, while the best athletes from the 1930s were just the ones with the least polio. Times change. Jackson used his abilities to fight against fascists during the war and write the wrongs

of a racist society, which is tough because superpowers don't help when you fight in systemic racism. It doesn't matter if you have the strength of 10 men if none of those men can get a mortgage. To help me dive a little bit deeper into this topic, we've got a lot of brothers. We're gonna go around the horn here real quick. First up is a certified nerd and standard comedian and daily show writer. Super nerd Ashton Wilma. What, what are you? What are you trying to disrespect you gangster?

No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. You know, you're still Houston. Yeah, yeah, don't. How many times have you been on the show? Like I tha, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. We, th. We, th. We, th. We're, th. We're, th. We're, th. th. We're, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. tha. tha. tha. tha, tha, the show? Like what number is this again? Like you have to like, I think this is like my fourth time. Give a take, give a take. Yeah. Also joining us is a comic artist who creates narrative driven work

and incorporates his own character creations into his work. Hebrew Brantley, Hebrew, how you doing today? What's up, I'm great man. I'm glad to be on. I appreciate you guys having me. Well, appreciate you for being smart enough to not join us in this hot-ass studio. Nice and air-conditioned where you are. Television is torture, Hebrew. It's torture. Also, for the very first time, this man's work has helped make this podcast happen up until now we have a senior producing self-professed geek of all things Aaron Lamar Brelson Aaron how you doing? Testing one too wow this is how it feels like going beyond the scenes all right yeah I'm doing great Roy it's a pleasure

and honor to be on the show with you all normally you're normally helping to produce all these segments and put all the wheels on the car so it can go for room. But thank you for settling in on this one. Because Ashton we was like, yeah, we talk about black geeks and Aaron was like, well, you know I have a lot to say about them. I'll just write myself around the horn to the three of you first. I want to know when you first started reading comic books

and becoming engrossed in the world of comic books. And when you recognize your first black comic superhero, because I'm going to be honest, for me, I grew up with budget limitations. And so, you know, where I'm from, you could really choose one of two things. You could collect baseball cards, or th. th. th. th. th or tho, th or tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the the the the tho, the tho, the tho, th, th, th, th, th, the th, th, th, the the the the thi, thi, the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thro, theea. thoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. the the tho, the where I'm from, you could really choose one of two things. You could collect baseball cards or you can collect comic books. You could not afford both. And with a little bit of extra money I did have, I would spend that on video game magazine. Shout out to GamePro, shout out to electronic game and monthly.

Shout out to Nintendo Power. So I never, game and former. I was like, you're speaking to my nerd heart right. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to, I. to, I. to, I. to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to, to, th. th. th. th. th. to ca, to, th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to to to, to, to, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. to c. to c. to c. to c. to c. to c. to c. to c. to c. to c. to c. to c. the.. I was like you're speaking to my nerd heart right now. So I never, I never dealt with the comic books. And so there would be kids in middle school and have the comic books, but I just, what I knew of comic books was the cartoons. If it didn't have a Saturday morning cartoon, I couldn't tell you anything about it. New nothing. But I can name you who was on the bench for the Cincinnati Red to 1988. So, that's a different type of nerd. That's still in, you're still in the house. So, but this is, but this is a world that I really do not have much of a,

it does not connect to my childhood if I'm just being 100. So I want you to walk me through how you all got in the comic books. Actually, I thou you you you th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. tho, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, th. th. But, but, but, but, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. But, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. But, but, but, thi. But, th. But, but, th. But, th. and what was the first like sense of representation that you saw? I would say the way I got in the comic books was I grew up on Fox, they had weekday afternoon cartoons and you'll watch X-Men, you would watch all the superhero cartoons and that spark my love for comic books. Now the first superhero that actually got me truly loving superhero, it's always been black superheroes. My first superhero I loved was Meteor Man. He was, uh, oh, yeah, it's not a comic book, it's a movie. Robert Townsend. So many famous black actors, but when I was growing

up as a kid, we would watch Meteor Man 18, thousand times a day. So then to that point, Aaron, what did you discover? That's a movie, that's a movie you know and Ashton you know he kicking back with his pops watching something yeah probably was that movie was a little grown it's a classic little grown for you were you like five six years old what about you Aaron how did you get into like where did you go to get him because yeah like comic books was that was a white side of town Aaron and growing up for, growing up in Birmingham, you did not go to the white side of town unless a white classmate had a birthday

or unless it was time to go Christmas shopping. That was literally another universe. Yeah. So where are you even finding the comic books? Like, who is your people? How did you get into this? You know, I have to give a lot of credit for to to to to to to credit to Brian you know he was an avid collector so he had a bunch of GI Joe comics but it was when he was growing up and going away to you know college and everything he let me inherit his comic book collection which had a lot of the

1970s Batman comic books you know what I mean and that you know vintage blue and gray jumpsuit. And so you get a lot of those like 70s and 80s Batman comics, death in the family where you see the second Robin passing away by the hands of the Joker. And so I was really fortunate to have an older brother who was into a lot of geek stuff. Star Wars, Batman, G. I was. Ihen, I as well was watching all those weekday cartoons in the afternoon,

X-Men and Batman the Animated Series. So really developed and coalesced through, I mean, I think the animated series for Batman is one of the groundbreaking series of all time. And so it was really in that pocket that I really embraced, you know, my geekdom in a way and grew to have such a love affair with this art form. Now Hebrew, you took it to another level because you started drawing and actually trying to do something with all this stuff, unlike these two shifless Negroes. How did representation, you know, how did that inspire your work?

Like did you ever feel a moment, and you know, and did that inspire your work? Like, did you ever feel a moment? And, you know, and Ash and Aaron, feel free to jump in on this as well. Was there ever a character where you're like, oh, damn, that's gonna be my through line? Or that's the one that inspired me to go to the next level with this? No, man, you know, I'm probably a little older than, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you than, you know, the brothers on the panel. And I think for me, it was like, I came into it through my mom. My mom was just a reader.

My mom would read everything. And she just wanted me to be a reader. And I wouldn't connect with anything. You know, like I would pick up something, and then she introduced me to comic books. But it was her way, so it was like Archie and I don't, I, I, excuse me, I don't know if I can curse, okay, but, but, you know, the stuff that, again, it just was a little too white for me, you know, and wasn't funny, and then I gravitated more towards like X-Men and all that stuff, and I think that like, you know, my first introduction before comics or kind kind kind kind kind kind kind th. or kind th. or kind the th. or kind, th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, thi, to, to, to, th... I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th... I, th.. I, th.. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. And, th. And, the, th. And, the, the, the, the, th. And, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, you, to, you, you, to, you know, to, you, to, you, you, you, to, maybe at the same time to black heroes is a questionable black hero, which is Panther from Thundercats.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, the mechanic. They just always made them fix. Exactly. That was it. And he had Nuntucks. Niggas love Nuntuck. Yeah, let's just do that. And it was, you know, Panther was voiced by the grandfather on the Cosby show.

Oh, yes. Yes. No, that makes sense. Yeah, and it was so, you know, he had that deep black man like, you know, I feel like, you know, I feel like it was my grandfather talking to me. So, and that was his character. And that was his character in the show. He was like, he was like, he, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. And, th. And, the, th. And, th. And, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the being a pussy, like, come on, stop now. Like, yeah, let's stop, let's stop this shit. But, um, but no, but in all sincerity, like, that was sort of my way in and then it was like, you know, the 11 year old boy in me saw storm. And that was like, oh, okay, that's, this is speaking to me on a few levels, right? This not, that's not just, they......... And, th.. And, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that was, th. th. th. that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, th. That was, th. That was, th. That was, th. That was, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, that was, it came to my stuff, I think, you know, it wasn't, I think it's just a combination of just like all these things that I've sort of ingested over the years, you know what I mean? Like these different, different heroes, different characters.

But, you know, I think, man, we all were hooked on blonde-haired, blue-eyed supermen for the longest time, right? Because that's all we were fed. Yeah, you know, the closest I came to comic books, I would read comic strips in the newspaper every day. I grew up in a newspaper house, so especially on Sundays, we passed the paper around the table, and you just read all the different sections. And so, you know, to that point Hebrew, like, I'm trying to think, you know Birmingham media, especially print media, is

hella conservative back in those days. So I don't even think I saw the boondocks until late 90s, but to me the blackest thing I saw in the newspaper was the Phantom. And he was a vigilante and he was te' up shit. No, only reason I thought he was black because he was in the jungles all the time. I was like, he's a black superhero. And then the movie came out, they had Billy Zane, Billy Zane, Pazz. I thought that was the original Black Panther for real.

It was such a lack of black characters out there, I had to identify with Beast from the X-Men because he was blue at least. And so it was someone that you can still see yourself in, because you couldn't really see yourself in Cyclops. You can't really, even though you have Wolverine and he was dope, you couldn't see yourself in that. So at least with Beast being blue, see it a little bit. It's not till you get Bishop coming to the X-Men 2 where Bishop is just a strong like six foot six black guy will like wavy jet black hair and just call it what it is Bishop had a Jerry curl. He had a Jerry curl. Bishop looked like he was a running

back for the race. Yeah look like a superman but how did that make you feel Hebrew in Ashden like when you saw a brother that looked like your uncle from a family barbecue in a comic book because I remember seeing for me it was Bo Jackson, Frank Thomas, King Griffithy Jr. Those were the three black athletes that made me feel like oh he's doing, especially Boe because he's from around the corner in Birmingham's suburb. So like I remember that feeling of man I can do this because he looks like me. Was that, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, was that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's that's that that's that that that's that that's that's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th. that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's, thiiiiiiiiiiii. thiiii. thi. thi. their, their, their, their, their, the corner in the Birmingham suburb. So like I remember that feeling of man I can do this because he looks like me. Did was that was that your character Aaron was Jerry Curl man? Bishop was that I mean because at that point you're really grasping for some sort of representation so you get that with Bishop right.

You have a person who's not from the time period that the X-Men are taking place and he's from a dystopian future and he's coming back the right the wrongs that kind of led way to his horrible future, you know, where he isn't happening so. But Bishop was a little bit off his rocker, you know what I mean? But it was okay because he was he was really cool and militaristic in a way so I really gravitate to that. He brought I'll start with you on the the to to to the to the to to to the to the to the to the to Do you think that black cartoons outside the mainstream get enough credit or get enough attention? You know, like within the mainstream culture, how much of, do do black cartoons get their props from the mainstreams the way that they deserve? Is the tie changing is a little bit or is it still kind of picking shoes? I think it's picking shoes man like I don't know any I mean besides like Boondocks obviously that that had a real moment right and it still does I think it kind of reverberates

you know when you get people you know sort of reposting memes and things like that and how it sort of lived through but but you talking the strip of the cartoon or both? Well really both. More so the TV show because th. th. th. the the th. the th. the TV th. the TV th. the TV th. the TV th. the TV show th. the TV show th. th. the TV show. th. the TV show. th. th. the TV th. th. th. th. th. that's that's th. th. th. that's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that's the. the. thi. thi. thi. the. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. talking the script of the cartoon or both we're really both TV show more so more so the TV show because that's what everybody you know like that's where a lot of people found it you know so I think beyond that man there really hasn't been like we've only just been side kicks you know to the white characters and I'm not you know it's just you know we get a proud family every now and then you know we have little blips on the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, it's, it's, it's, it's the. It's the the the the their. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. It's uh, found out that, you know, black was cool, um, again, after Black Panther. I mean, black was profitable. There you go, black, yeah, exactly. We can make money off these folks.

You know, it was just that thing of like, let's retrofit this character, who was probably a white man, let's make him black. But they don't th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really th really the the thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, black. But they don't really change anything except for just, you know, replacing the actor or the person, not necessarily reforming the character. And I feel like that happens in cartoons and animation all the time where it's just like, you know, we have to feel like, all all right, we have, how many black kids we have in this group? Oh, oh shit, let's get a black kid in here real quick. Right them some big hair. Right. Have y'all seen the new Velma TV show?

No, I haven't seen a game. Where Shaggy's black. Shaggy's black? Shaggy's black and he don't smoke weed. He don't even get high. I don't even know what kind of shaggy. I like it's like when it comes to like what you're talking about where they re-skinned white characters for put a black face on white characters. We need representation but that it's it's the other side of that is like yeah. I like shaggy.

I've been watching Scooby-Doo. You know what's wild about that too is that it's one of the thingir own stories and white people don't want to see their favorite characters, you know, dipped in chocolate. Yeah, yeah. He's like, I agree. They're like, well, listen, you say that and then you'd be like, hey, you know Jesus, them guy might have started off. The original superhero. Yeah. But then you even take something like say Miles Morales Hebrew where you have Spider-Man into the Spideyverse right which was an animated

film with a black Spider-Man who you know a whole spiderverse or whatever and it did so well there was there was rumbling for a quick minute oh I bet they should do a live action, Miles Morales. And then they was like, nah, we're just gonna get out of a sequel. I'll go from one more time. But I feel like that, you know, again, with that, listen, Miles is one of my favorite characters in comics. And I, you know, I love the character, although they've never really given him to a decent black writer or group of black creators, which they should have. But you know, with that movie, I think that movie worked because it was just a good movie.

They really honed in on making Miles feel authentic. His neighborhood felt authentic. His parents shit feels like Miles is Miles last name is Morales and his dad's last name what's his dad's last name? Davis. They hate the day Davis right? Davis right? That's that's some real shit you know what I mean like that's not even his daddy. My last name womack my dad last name Lomax they just happened to rhyme they not so I think I think I they did a good job in bringing in some authenticity. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. I. I their. I'm their. I'm their. I'm their their their their their their their their their their their mal mal. My. My. My. My. My. My. My. My. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. I. I. My. My. My. My. My. My. My. My. th. My. My. th. th. th. th. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. My. My. My rhyme. They're not the same. So I think I think they did a good job in bringing in some authenticity. I think that we will start to see more of that. But you know again, it's like where you know Hollywood's motivated by the dollars and as long as you know Peter Park. Like we'll get the black miles in real time in one point but you know white white spiderman is still you know very very bankable. So after the break I want to talk to you a little bit more

I want to talk to all of you actually about how we can introduce new black characters, new black IP into the world of comic books and eventually matriculating into television and profitable movie franchises for you Hebrew. But also the hurdles of comic books and eventually matriculating into television and profitable movie franchises for you Hebrew But also the hurdles that you've dealt with and Trying to break through new concepts and what that world is like. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back Beyond the scenes we are back. We are talking the world of black superheroes and why we only get the same couple of superheroes remix even though we got a whole universe of black stories waiting in the queue to be told. One of our guests has been creating some of these characters. Now Hebrew walk us through this journey

because I want to talk a little bit this break just about a lot of the existing black movie IP and how it came to actual fruition. But I want to talk with you first just from the ideation of drawing a character, creating the character, creating a comic around the character, walk us through that journey of what that was like. Because are you writing, are you creating a character like with television, like Ashton, I know you know this. Like with television, the trick is, do you want to write and create a character that you know everybody will gravitate towards, that they'll like, or are you writing what you like,

and then you making people get on board with what you're into. Well, I think for me, my journey is really unique in the way that I didn't start out trying to create a comic or anything like that. I, you know, I come from the world of hot art, right? So, like, you know, paintings with galleries, museums, etc. And in doing that over the years and trying to find my voice, I kind of accidentally landed on this idea. A lot of the work that I was doing early in my career, it had a lot of angst to it. You know, it was very pro-black or maybe a little bit too much, you know, skewed a little too dark or heavy-handed, so to speak. And I think, you know, within the gallery world in thatthat space, you kind of have to, you know, you have to walk a line, you know, there's, you have to be very clever

about how you say certain things. And so for me it was like, you know, the advice that I got from a lot of my peers was like, man, you know, you have to paint things that feel like you. And for me growing up, you know, a self-professed sort of black nerd on comics, cartoons, anime, all that shit, trying to really figure out what that was. And it wasn't until, you know, a few years after college where I had found myself in that place that we all do, where it's like, man, what's the next thing? And, you know, I found a book on World War II, just was thumbing through it

and landed on the Tuskegee Airman. And with Tuskegee Airmen, you know, man, it was just, it was like a lightning bolt that hit me because it was like, man, nobody has really touched on these brothers from the standpoint of like, like, their journey was so powerful, it struck me in this way because the time in which they existed,

the time in which they were charged with doing certain things, our world was a mess. I mean, it's not that different from what it is now, but we're talking, we're talking world war, we're talking, you know, within America, blacks are, you know, treated significantly less than, right? But then they're allowed and tasked to fly these planes and they do it successfully and these brothers are buttoned up and you know, they are the sort of personification of what manhood is, right? And what thin, and what heroism is? And so I found that and I just thought about,

like, what if there was like this character or these characters that existed that time just kind of forgot about, right? Like it happens all the time. These cartoons that fall off the shelf and never get seen. And so I created Fly Boy, which became sort of my staple IP, but as kind of a lark, like within the high art space and just like creating this this show presupposing that I found this animation project that never saw the light of day and I presented it like that to my audience. the the the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu. thu. thu. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. the. that. that. that. that. theea. that. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. that I found this animation project that never that never saw the light of day and I presented it like that to my audience. Like some found footage. Yeah. So it was it was kind of, you know, just bringing people in that way because I felt like

that was the easiest way than just to say, you know, hey, I created this thing, whole clothed. And people started to bite. You know, folks coming to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the show, the show, the show, to the show, the show, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I, thoe. I, thoe, thi. I, thi. I, thoome, thoe, thoe, thoe, thoe, thoe, thoe, thoe, tho, thoe, tho, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the theme, thi. And, thi. And, thin. And, throwne. And, thin. And, tooomooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomkkk, the. And, the. And, the. And, th out. And people started to bite. You know, folks coming to the show, the response was great. But it wasn't just a response to like, you know, because there was no narrative behind it, for real. Like, there was no story through line or anything like that. But people started bravading him as a Tuskegee airman. Did you present him as black?

Or was he just all goggled up and scarfed up. Goggled, blackface little kid, you know, with or without superpowers, take it, you know, take it what you will. But I think that people were allowed to read into it. And I think that there was sort of like this message behind it of empowerment that people really, you know, they felt. And so as I started doing more and more of these paintings, you know, grew and people were coming to the shows looking for flyboy. I have people making, you know, like little Halloween costumes, it's, you know, cheap little,

little aviator goggles, red scarves, etc. And so it just grew into a thing where, you know, it wasn't intended to be, you know, a thing that I continued on with, it was intended to just be this moment, but as it started to grow and my understanding of it started to grow, I started to attach narrative to it. Because, you know, nobody knew the origins or they weren't coming for that. They were just coming for for the aesthetics and the messaging behind it. And so, you know, a few years back, I finally, you know, created a comic. You know, it was my first run. And, you know, like any junior, you know, novice to a thing, I pretty much wrote myself into a corner by issue two. I, like, I like, killed off one of the main characters by issue two and I was like, oh shit. So I kind of had to like, you know, wheel it back, but like let those things exist on an

island by themselves and then sort of retool and recreate something. But again, all that to say that, you know, it wasn't me intending to make something, to make this what it would it's become. It was sort of a happy accident. But, you know, again, through that has bared a lot of really, really, really strong fruit. Okay, so then you create Flyboy and then you're eventually going to be at a crossroads, if you aren't already, that a lot of black content creators are going to be at now where you have an idea and the trade-off for exposure and money is new cooks get to come in the kitchen and tinker with the seasoning on this dish that you've perfected up into this point.

How difficult is it to try and navigate deciding on how to hold on to your IP as things start to grow because when we talk about this idea that there's this idea that there's the the their there's there's there's their there's their there's their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their their. their their. their. their their their their. their their thea. trea. trade. tradeoo, tradeooeo. tradeooo. tradeoo. tradeoo. tradeoo. tradeo. their their their their on how to hold on to your IP as things start to grow. Because when we talk about this idea that there's this backlog of all of these black ideas and black comic strip shows that are out there that deserve to be seen and deserve to be made in the movies, but how much of it is the studios and the labels and the distribution networks creating an impossible contract that you just possibly can't agree to. And is that one of the hurdles that is keeping something like, say, flyboy, from truly expanding to something even greater?

From flying, if you will. To soaring. Like, how difficult is it to try and keep control of your eye because you're trying to grow this shit? Yeah. But then to grow it, you gotta give it to somebody that gets to go, I do whatever I want if we can make fly boy and give them a sister and fly boy.

Tell me let's make them 34. Fly man. No, I mean, you know, it's a task, but I think for me, again, my situation is unique in the sense that like, this isn't a comic book, right, that's just selling for five bucks, right? These are paintings that sell for, you know, thousands of dollars, right? You gotta take your prices. Don't tell them your prices. A lot of, a lot of dollars. But you know, these are collectibles that I've created and statues that I've created that you know are now seen all around the world.

These are collectibles that, you know, go on eBay for triple the price. You know, you're talking four or five thousand dollars for some plastic, you know, with that, you know, it kind of changes my narrative when coming into Hollywood because it's like, the product is proven. And, you know, I'm only doing this on a smaller level when it comes to, you know, I'm keeping it contained at a very limited number. But, you know, it's proven.

Look, these are the numbers here. And this is just me doing it. So, you know, if we start to bring this thing out to the masses, you know, it's going to obviously change and you're going to, you know, get more eyes around it, gain more fandom around it, and, you know, obviously, you know, it's able to grow, the IP grows, etc. But just me being able to do it on my own is already, I think a lot more than most are able to kind of come in the game with. Like most folks are coming in with the idea if it's a book or if it's a script,

you know, that's not as leverageable as, you know, building out a world doing, you know, exhibitions. I did an experiential exhibition in Chicago a few years ago called Nevermore Park, where basically I created the world of Flyboy and you kind of walk through in this experience basically through an origin story of this character right and you know we had like we had a couple hundred thousand visitors to it I bought like 50,000 tickets for CPS students so they were able to kind of come through you you know it it really expanded you know our again our fan base in a lot of ways and and also

showed them sort of another side because they're only familiar with the paintings and you know again having had all of that gives me a little bit more leverage in those conversations with different studios. Ashton Aaron, why don't studios accept the fact that black superhero hit movies are not an anomaly? It irks me that the first Iron Man is credited with being the beginning of the Marvel rise. Yeah, universe, yeah. It irks me when we all know the truth is that it was Blade. We do. We do. Now, they didn't connect Blade to none of the other shit and maybe that's why they try not to write it off. Blade had a budget of about 40, 45 million, if I'm not mistaken. Grossed about a hundred. It made about a hundred. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's, that's, the. Yeah, the. Yeah, the. Yeah, that's why they try not to write it off blade had a budget of about 40 45 million if I'm not mistaken

Grossed about a hundred it made about a hundred It didn't know it did 130 it did by 130 140 it made it made it's money back and then another hundred million. Yeah, give up to justify a sequel. Yeah, two sequels. Yeah, it got sequels and a TV series which spike cancer because they said they couldn't afford the special effects. Yeah, that's a the the the the the their????????? their. It's a their. It's a to? Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. It's. It's just. It's just. It's just. It's just. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. Just. It's, that. Just, that. It's just, that. It's just, that. It's just, that, that, that, that, that, that, the that, the to, to the the the series which spike counts because they said they couldn't afford the special effects. That's a true story. So why don't these films, like why, like let's just talk about the erasure of Blade? Yeah. Is there, do you think, do you even agree with that point, Aaron? Let's just start there? Oh, absolutely. I mean, we can go a step further to just talk about the erasure of Wesley Snipes, but I think... Well, he would have paid his taxes. Yeah, I mean, he was talking about Blade 4, 5, 6. I mean... Well, you know, him and Ryan Reynolds didn't get along that girl.

Yeah, you try to play Wesley as a diva. The thing about it, I commotion apparently with that Blade Trinity production, but we have to take it back to the 1990s and understand that before Blade the film, there isn't a successful Marvel film adaptation at that point. You have the Captain America film which is from the 1990s, which is, it's not what we have with Chris Evans now. And then you also lost. Dufflandren Punisher, cult classic, but not hit. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It......................................................................................................................................... and Punisher, Colt Classic, but not a hit by any stick. And then you have this buried Roger Corman Fantastic Four film that wasn't even released to the general public and you can only find copies of it at Comic-Con.

And so Marvel was doing this thing of licensing out their characters, not building the overall universe, but licensing them out to 20th Century Fox, licensing them out to Colombian pictures, Sony, and just seeing what it got, it wasn't as much of a creative powerhouse in the film game as it is today. And so you get this film called Blade, which is rated R, which is bloody, violent, vampire flick, action flick, and it literally, it becomes a hit because of the performance of the performance of blaze, because of this black superhero. But it also th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th of Blade, because of this representation of this black superhero. But it also creates a door for us to get X-Men in 2000, for us to get Spider-Man in 2002 and all the various films that come and kind of give us modern contemporary visual adaptations of superheroes on film. And so I just think it's just one of those things where people don't want to get black characters or black actors or performers the credit.

And it's old-fashioned racism. They're trying to, you know, qualify it with different metrics and whatnot. But blade was a hit to generate two more films in a film in a series adaptation. But again, they want something more, um, but at no point did they go, what is some of the mother black characters we got in the fault? Like why didn't Marvel go dig in the crates? Yeah, I, because a lot of those characters are whack as hell. Let's be real. Why you, yeah, well, he, let's be real. Black Panther, think about like the one of the hurdles had to overcome a black panther was a, uh, Manker was a, uh, Bukku's character, the character, their, thu's, their, thu's, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, because, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, th.. th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Yeah, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because, th. Because comic books. He was just straight up a gorilla, like a monkey. That was his power, monkey man, or something like that.

And they had to like actually make him a modern character for today and get rid of the racist trope that he was. So I'm sure they go and look through their list of black characters and half of them are just stereotypes. Even with Black Panther, Black Panther, you know, was a character that was created by Jack Kirby, rest in peace, Jack Kirby, one of the greatest comic book creators of all time. But you know, Jack Kirby's not a brother and I'm pretty sure, like I don't think Jack have many brothers on his roller decks like, hey man, I'm creating this character called the Black Panther. Can I run a bag of notes. Also hold th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th called the Black Panther. Can I run it by you for notes?

Right, let me get these notes above. Also, hold on, can I just shout this out? This is a very, very proud moment in my life of nerdom. But my paintings and my figures were in Wakanda Forever. Ooh, and I heard her shot. That's hard. And so, set up to that. It was like the biggest nerve moment.

It was all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest nerve moment. I you know it was all quiet in the theater and I saw my shit and I just let it Oh, oh, it's that's fire you like, yo this movie the greatest movie in the world. I don't know. I love this movie. All right. Let's let's stay on that detail for a second then. How do you get a call from like secret number unknown? And the hello. Is it Samuel Jackson? Is it a Samuel Jackson. the? the? the? the? the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do. Do? the. Do? the. Do? Do? the. Do? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh? Oh, the. the. Oh? Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. the. Oh. the. Oh. the. Oh. the. Oh. the. Oh. Oh. the. Oh. Oh. it Samuel Jackson with an eye patch and shield. He's recruiting. Get a phone call. How you doing, but this Ryan Cougal. It has to be Nate Moore or somebody. No, it's so.

Yeah. I know I know Ryan through through Mike. Right. So I got I got a chance to hang out on the first Black Panther set. Michael B. . Oh, he's just Mike. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. That's. That's. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. That was. that was. that was. that was. that was. that was. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. the first Black Panther set. Michael B. Jordan. Yeah, Michael B. Jordan. Oh, he was just Mike. I know. I know that was wild. I'm sorry.

I was like, Michael Jordan? You know Michael Jordan. I was like, do I know Mike? Is this a Mike we all know? Oh, man. Oh, of B. Jordans. And so, you know, I was able to kind of go, you know, that route. But again, the space that I kind of move maneuver in in terms of like, you know, black visual artists, you know, on the painting and sculpting side.

And again, playing multiple, wearing multiple hats, I'm one of few, so I think that, you know, that kind of helps me maneuver and get to get to know some of these folks. And I saw Ryan Kugler in Atlanta when he first was coming back to start Black Panther too. We ran into each other at the hotel. And I was like, I was messing with, I was like trying to juice him for, you know, some gossip. I needed to know what was going to happen. Give me something. line give me something of course he didn't give me shit but it was cool but I think that like I would like to think that you know as Ryan is sculpting this and this is so you know Black Panther is so cultural right it's not just about Wakanda but like when you look at even Wakanda forever like there's there's you know it's it's black It's not just this fake African culture. And so I think that, you know, they do such a good job of being fully immersive and aware of what's going on,

you know, outside in this world that they bring into this Marvel world to make it feel real for us. And I think that, you know, the character Riri being from Chicago, me being sort of, you know,, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi Riri being from Chicago, me being sort of, you know, Chicago's, you know, some of my characters sort of being the mascots in certain instances for Chicago I think that it was just, you know, it was one of those things that just really worked and I'll be honest with you and this is going to sound like a flex but you know it takes so long to make these movies that I that th. th. th th th th th that that that that that tha takes takes takes takes takes ta ta tha tha tha tha tha tha tha. tha. tha. tha. thi. thi. tha. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. tha's tha's thae. thaeee. to that's to thea. to thea. to thea. to to to to to to to to to to thi. th I forgot they even asked to use it because it was like four years ago. Yeah, oh my god. That's true. So you know it was like when I watch the movie you're in the movie and then I see my shit on her desk in the workshop and then I see my shit on the wall and I'm like oh my god

man. That's fine. Man you're different you showed me something I did four years ago. I'm gonna need that. I'm gonna need a season desist. I need that taken down. I need all that. After the break, I want to bring it home and talk about how we can expand black storytelling, you know, not only in comic books, but as it gets into television. And what is, what do you think could happen and what you think probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably probably could happen and what you think probably won't happen. I got a question for all three of you after the break. This is Beyond the Scenes. Beyond the Scenes, this has been a wonderful, wonderful conversation about black comic books and

black superheroes and you know whether we can get a couple more on the screen that aren't remixed versions of old 1942 stereotype time. I'm gonna write me a black soup you're gonna be called Jive Turkey, you did. And every time he kills somebody he go, you did. I like that. I bet you that shit get green that's what I'm saying. Now I'll never be able to go back home to Birmingham or will you be a hero in Birmingham? No I can't go to Essence Fest after you write a movie called John Turkey. You dig. I got another idea. It's like Teen Titans, but they call the Youngbloods.

Yeah. Okay. How honest can the black experience be infused into black superhero narratives? Do you think there is still space for expansion, Ashton? I mean, not do I think, I know there's space for expansion. Will it get made though? I mean, it's up to us. We can't let white media or American media control the stories that we tell. I feel like one of my inspirations is Tony Morrison. And pretty sure she was like, I tell thi the the their their their their their their their their their thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi there is still is still is still there is still is still is still thi there is still there is still there is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still their is still their is still. their is still. their is still th. th. th. th. I th. th. I th. I thi. thi. thi. I thi. I thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi is still thi. thi. thi is still thi is still their is still is still is still is still their that we tell. I feel like one of my inspirations is Tony Morrison.

And pretty sure she was like, I tell stories, I don't exclude black people, I tell stories from a black experience. And they're for black people. That's the kind of superhero story I want to see. A story that's truly all around made for black people. It involves every aspect of black culture. And it have to capitulate to modern mainstream America, modern society, have to like, do,

why is it always black stories that have to do, reach across the aisle so everybody else can feel a scene and accept it. We ain't never been, nobody reached across the aisle for us? Why can't I tell a story that's... It revolves around the dollar. I think for me being able to spend a little time in you know Hollywood and having all these conversations, right? Like, you know, studios are, I mean, you know, these cats, they're not original and it's the dollars, the bottom line. So I'm going to reach back in a catalog of things that we've done already that people are familiar with because once upon a time it lived and we're going to redo that to death. And then we ain't got nothing else, right?

Hopefully we have our Ryan Kugler's or our you know our Jordan Peels, those are the only brothers that are would be allowed to introduce something new at this moment, right? Like you have a little bit of radicalness to it. Yes. Right. State approved radical. Because maybe Ava Duvenate might. Yes.

Maybe. I think so. I mean, but yeah, not to exclude Ava at all. I think she's absolutely one of those ones. But you know, it's going to take someone of that ilk to get that thing across. I think like you look at the time in the 90s, you talked about somebody mentioned, you know, Meteor Man, right? Like, Meteor Man doesn't get made, even as a comedy, if Robert Townsend doesn't have all that goodwill that he's built up. Five heart beats. Hollywood shuffled.

Hollywood shuffing. I'm going to get you. And those relationships, yeah, those relationships that he's built with all these phenomenal black comedians and talent where he can get, you know, get those folks in at a price so he can make his movie at a price, right? And again, it's still kind to down me me me me me me to down, to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to to be to be to be the to be to be to be a the to be a to be a the th. th. th. to be a thian, thian, thi. thi, thoom, thoom, thoom, thoom, th. thi, th. th. the, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th.. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, tho, tho. And, to, to, toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. And, and, right? And again, it still kind of had to be, you know, it's not to down Media Man, because I love Media Man, but it had to be a comedy, right?

It had to be a comedy. And it definitely plays on those 90 stropes of like, the bad neighborhood and the gangs, the golden laws, right? Like, Don Tudor. What you're doing? Give me your purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse purse, give me your purse, give me your purse purse purse, the purse, the purse, the purse, the the the the the the the the the the the to the to to to to to to get to me, to get th. tham, tham, tham, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to be to be to be. to be to be. It, to be. It, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me, to me to me th. to me to me thi. thi. thi. to the. the. the. the. the. the. the. to to th. to to to to to to me, old bitch. And unfortunately the thing about Meteor Man, it was a box office flop, right? And so when that happens, Robert Townsend goes into Hollywood jail, can't direct for a little bit or has to go make the parenthood on television, which is a great series as well, but also you don't really get that Meteor Man too. And so, you know, and I think we kind of overlooked the importance of Black Panther being that it was Marvel's, I think it was Marbles either 18th or 19th film at

that point. And it was the first ever Marvel film to be nominated for Best Picture. And so just Marvel grossed everything that came before it. You know, and again, that's a that's one part in a series of these episodic films that people are just, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, you, you th, you thi, you thi, you thi, you're, thi, thi, you th, you th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the th, the th, they, thi, thi, they, thr-I, thr-a, thr-m. thr-I's thr-ma. thr-ma. thr-I's, thr-I, thr-I, th's a that's a one party in a series of these episodic films that people are just okay We're doing this film to get to the next point, but Black Panther was a cultural moment. It was a phenomenon. It was a phenomenon really and then Marvels like, hey, yeah, look at what we did. And so it's kind of like, you know, you get those hits, but to try to get to that level and to try try try try to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. th. th. the. that. the the that. th. th. th. th. th. their their their their their their their their. Black. Black. Black. Black. Black. Black. Black. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. thr. the. the. thr. the. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. th. th. to that level and to maintain that I feel there's way more pressure on black creators. There's way more of a, see, we told you that it wouldn't sell and then that opportunity gets yanked away when so many other folks in Hollywood can take swings and miss but still be able to make other films and so I think the playing field for us is very limited. And so you got to either get up and hit a home run or you might not get that chance that that that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that chance that get that chance, honestly. One of those challenges though, Aaron, to what you're saying, even when you're talking about Media Man, is that, you know, we haven't, we, as as black folks and folks of color, by and large, haven't been taught or haven't been welcomed into the conversation of science fiction. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, if this hero is playing in the theaters one through nine, and Tyler Perry is playing in, the thir, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, you you you you you you you you you you you th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, the thin, to to you you thin, you you to thin, you the the thin, the the the this hero is playing in theaters one through nine and Tyler Perry is playing in theater 10, listen, I mean, seriously, like, I'm off the streets with my lady, I'm going on a date, I'm not speaking just with myself, but, but I'm gonna go with Tyler Perry. That's a brand name for me, and it's something relatable, right? And I think that like, you know, the fact that categorically, that we have not th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th relatable right and I think that like you know the fact that categorically we have not been put into science fiction films

in that narrative forever like we had we'd always be one of us right like you know Billy D. Williams is the only nigger in space for how long? Right yeah and he finally let LeVar Burton in space, he was blind. He's blind, right. He had Star Trek, Mitch, get on some shades. Shout out to LaVar Burton, man. So to the creators, to the black content creators and writers that are listening to us Hebrew. How do you allow your work to be the truest version of yourself?

Like you have a coffee table book that you've just put together that's not a sale at oh oh it's right oh oh oh it's right oh oh I can already tell from the cover that book Ashton that's one of the books you put on the table impress when press yeah yeah right hey it can be the only only thing on the table too it can be the only thing on the table to be the table too. Next to a glazed candle, because I don't know nothing about candles. As you look back at all of the work that you've done, enough to put into a book, which is already a crazy accomplishment to think about, that you've done enough that you went, you know what. And I know that's not even everything you've done.

That's just the hits. How did you allow your art to be the trruest trruest trest, trruest, tr tr tr tr tr tr tr tr tr tr tr to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the truest version of yourself and not be influenced by what they might buy or what could, how did you stay true to what you wanted to do versus what you thought people wanted to see? I think my art has sort of always been a bit of like my own diary, right? My art always reflects where I'm at, you know, emotionally, mentally. And so I think that like, you know, with art starting out, there was not really a big risk. You know, you just do a thing. I'm working, I got two other jobs over here, making, you know, horrible money, being a horrible employee, but it wasn't a risk to just go make some shit at night and paint and stay up all night and create some stuff. So I think that like starting out from an honest place of just like I just need to express myself. You know it's it's an

easier upstart than you know I didn't have to start out and from a place of like I have to make things in order to pay the bills to survive. So I have to work according to everybody else's sort of level or expectation of what is good and what's cool. The thing that stuck with me a long time ago was most deaf said, I just always wanted to grow up and make cool shit. And it's a very simple statement, but that's sort of how I lived in that sense of like, if I can always be honest with myself and in my work, I'll be okay. No matter what other work I have to do, like I have my outlet.

And my outlet has now become my career and my occupation. So, you know, just one of those things that really kind of worked out, I'm lucky. How, and I'll end with this question to all of you. And we've already kind of talked about whether or not we think that there'll be more black superhero stories. I think that they will. I think, you know, whether or not they will be able to toucest the studio has on all of the different intricacies that is the black experience across the diaspora, you know, that's depending on the producer

and the level of trust the studio has and that director blah blah blah blah. But once these fucking shows are on the air, do you think they'll give them time to find an audience? Damn. So, there was a great show on C.W. C.A. A.P. produced it, yeah. Correct. And then Michael B. Jordan, excuse me, Mike. He EPed a show on Netflix raising. Dion. Dion. Dian. Ra. Raising Dian, which was about a young, a single

mom raising a black boy with superpowers and how you navigate single mother, single parent with super. Like able to turn the genre on its head a little bit but neither one of those shows Naomi got a season I think racing Dion got two from Netflix if I'm not mistaken so how do we get these places to still just give shows time to find their audience or is that just strictly money and we're screwed I I think that's just the old days man this is this is this is all all all all all all all all the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the show is the show is the show is the show is the show is the show is the show is the show is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to find their audience? Or is that just strictly money and we're screwed? I think that's just the old days, man. This is all the numbers game, you know, financial and, you know, viewership. I think it's just, there's so many people buying for those spots and those slots and, you know,

the turnaround is just a lot faster these days where it's not networked so they don't have have to invest to invest to into a, you know, look at Seinfeld, man. How many, how many seasons did it take for Seinfeld to actually pick up? Two, maybe three. Yeah, right. He would have been canceled. Oh, he wouldn't totally. That's my fear for the story of the story of the black superhero is that even if these stories and the diverseness and the difference of all of the types of stories you want to tell, even if all that gets green lit, once you're out there and you're on the playing field, are you gonna get the support, are you gonna get the advertising? And are you gonna be given the runway you need to actually find it? Like if the CW won't give you a chance and nobody. Home of black lightning and all those different. You're going to 2B and that's it. That's CW's like get out of here Ava we got to put on another season of Flash.

Listen we just got to we got to leverage our white allies privilege. Taylor Swift if you listen to this I know what you did for ticketmaster. Yes. Do that for raising V on season 3. Yeah, bring it back. But I think you speak to a really important point of like, there's a pressure for the artist to create that will have a long-lasting effect and have success. And that's a hard place to come from an artist. Like Hebrew mentioned, he, you know, just created. You know, he was free to create. He wasn't caring about if this character IP that he created would one day,

you know, you know, connect with a large, he was just doing him. And so I think more initiatives and programs for up and coming black voices and artists like the milestone initiative for black creatives for milestone comics. I mean, we've already went so much time without even bringing up milestone comics. Which is basically, yeah, like, formed by black creators with black characters, more of an authentic voice. And so they actually developed not too long ago a pipeline program for aspiring black creatives who want to, you know, create comic book heroes and superheroes and play in that world. And so again, like, no one can forecast the future, especially when it comes to media in

particular. But what we can do is just develop, you know, opportunities to identify and spotlight some of those up and coming voices who can give us the next static shock, who can give us the next icon or, you know, rocket, someone like that who were featured in milestone comics that gave nuanced portrayals of blackness in comic books, right? Like they gave us not just this binary approach to life for black people, but so much more. It gave us that world building aspect that you find a lot with Hebrew's character flyboy. You know, it's not just one character, it's a whole world of experiences that we're looking to build. And so if we can develop more programs like that and identify more up-and-coming voices I think that's a that's a start but like

you said you know who knows when it comes to television and film I mean the bottom line is the dollar and so we're always going to be fighting that. Well I think this is a good a place to end and also CW I forgot that you gave us a lot of seasons of Black and Lightning, I'm sorry for raising my voice. With that aside, thank you so much. Ashton, Aaron, Hebrew, much respect to you. We look forward to seeing your work in Black Panther Part 3. And I have my lawyers reach out to you. Some of you work in my movie, Jive Turkey. Let's go.

Don't mess around. Hebrew might have a proof of concept right now on Jihad Iraq. I'm trying to write myself in as a sidekick, so. Youngblood can be a team of people or one person. I'll be. And where can we get the book, Hebrew? Where can people, the local bookstore, preferably people, they still, they still exist folks. Please patronize, you know, mom and pop bookshops.

But other than that, the bald white man spot, Mr. Bezos, you can go to Amazon and pick one up right there and delivered right to you. You know, there's so many weird names of businesses in New York that I thought that was a real business. I had to say that. Oh man, this is a great discussion. That's all the time we have for today. Thank you all so much for going beyond the scenes with us. Give me some theme music. Listen to the daily show beyond the scenes on thethe Eye Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts.

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