The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Brett Kavanaugh Faces Sexual Assault Allegations | Eli Saslow & Derek Black

Episode Date: September 20, 2018

Stormy Daniels likens Donald Trump's penis to Toad from "Mario Kart," Brett Kavanaugh is accused of sexual assault, and Eli Saslow and Derek Black talk "Rising Out of Hatred."  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. John Stewart here. Unbelievably exciting news. My new podcast, The Weekly Show. We're going to be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. September 19, 2018. From Comedy Central's World News Headquarters in New York,

this is the Daily Show everybody! I'm Trevor Noah, thank you so much for tuning in. This is insane. Sit down! Sit down! This is amazing! Wow, you guys are fun. Our guest tonight are Eli Sazlo and Derek Black. They're here to discuss an amazing story about Derek's transformation as a former white nationalist who now fights for racial equality. Talk about a plot twist. But first, let's catch up on today's headlines.

Bert and Ernie are beloved Sesame Street characters. But the question on everyone's mind this week was if that segment was brought to you by the letters LGBTQ. We are back now with Bert and Ernie and to you by the letters LGBTQ. We are back now with Bert and Ernie and the Burning Question this morning. Are they best friends or something more? The question was raised publicly by a recent interview with former Sesame Street writer Mark Saltzman. Were you thinking of Bert and Ernie as a gay couple? Saltsman, who joined the show in 1984, responded in part,

I always felt thatthat without a huge agenda, when I was writing Bird and Ernie, they were. Saltzman's recollection set it off on social media and brought responses from Sesame Workshop, declaring in part that Bird and Ernie, quote, remain puppets and do not have a sexual orientation. Wait, Muppets don't have a sexual orientation. That's weird because I know for a fact that Kermit and Miss Piggy Wait, Muppets don't have a sexual orientation.

That's weird because I know for a fact that Kermit and Miss Piggy smash hard. That's what I, I know. I know this. They, they even did an episode when the Count counted all their sex positions. He was like, one, reverse cowgirl, two, Sudanese Jackhammer, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah. Now, I don't really know if Bert and Ernie are gay, because I mean, on the one hand, two guys living together for 40 years could mean they're gay, but it could also just be that they live in New York and apartments are expensive.

And also, if they were gay, let's be honest, that eyebrow would have been addressed by now would have been dealt with. But let's move on. Let's move on because a school superintendent in Texas did something racist. A Texas school superintendent's job may be on the line after he made a racist remark about Houston Texans quarterback to Sean Watson. On a Facebook post about the Texans on on Alaska ISD superintendent Lynn Redden wrote quote when you need precision decision-making you can't count on a black

quarterback. Well parents whose kids attend the school district were quick to come out against Redden's comment. I think he needs to be checked out for that. That needs to be addressed. You think that comment's racist? It sure sounds like it to be addressed. Do you think that comments racist? It sure sounds like it to me. Okay, I'm gonna be honest. I didn't expect that accent to say something woke. I'm not gonna lie. Like, I watched that clip thinking I was gonna see a story about a racist,

and it turns out I'm the racist. Because that was great, he's right. Like now I'm imagining that there's an entire crew of Southern Progressives just running around like, hey boy, we don't take kindly to racist around here. This year's tolerance country, you heard. By the white, congratulations to By and Ernie. Live your truth, boys! Yeah! Yeah! Oh, in other news, in other news, Stormy Daniels has a new book out, and the details are way too detailed.

New excerpts from Stormy Daniels, her book was just released, and in it, she describes her intimate encounter with President Trump, and we'll give you the daytime TV version. She says the president's, you know what, looks, it, it, it, it, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. It, th. It, th. It, th. It, th. It's, thi, thi, thi, it, it, it, it, thi, it, it's, thi, is thi, is th. It's, is th. It's, is th. It's, is th. It's, is th. It's, is, is, is th. It's, is, is, is, is th. It, is, is, is, is th. It, is, is th. It, is, is th. It, is th. It, is th. It, is th. It's, is th. It's, th. It's, th. It's th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th th th thi. th th thi. thi. th th th th th th th give you the daytime TV version. She says the president's, you know what, looks quote like the mushroom character in Mario Kart. And in a today's you're wondering here is the character named Toad. That's right in her new book Stormy Daniel says that Trump's penis looks like Toad and first of all gross. First of all gross. Third, this shouldn't be on the real news. I mean, we would cover it, but people shouldn't be up for punitences for getting the Trump toad dick scoop. I don't think that

should be on the news. And like, I have so many questions now, like does it include the shoes? Like does Trump's dick have tiny little shoes? Does, like, it's got a vest? Does these penis have a vest? Because now I'm picturing like a penis wearing a vest? And Trump's like, sometimes it gets chilly, you gotta keep it warm. I, like, and also what I want to know is, when did Stormy Daniels discovered Trump's dick

looked like toad? and she was like, oh damn, where's Mario and Luigi? Or was it years later when she was playing Mario card for the first time and she was driving and she was like, Ah, there it is! Either way, I'm not gonna lie. I hate this story. I hate the story. Because now it's made me wonder if Trump has other Mario related to things about him. Like now I just picture Trump getting frisky like, now, now I'm gonna.

I'm gonna go down on you. Nah, no, no, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, all, let's, let's move on to our main story. Brett Kavanaugh, Brea, Supreme Court nominee and renowned dad-ge this weekend, they reached a whole new level. The Supreme Court nomination of Judge Brett Kavana could be in jeopardy. A woman going public saying he sexually assaulted her when they were in high school. Christine Blazy Ford, a college professor in California, tells the Washington Post, Kavana and a friend were stumbling drunk at a party in the 1980s.

It allegedly forced her into a bedroom, pinned her to a bed and groped her. She says, he was trying to attack me and remove my clothing. She told the post, when she tried to scream, he put his hand over her mouth. Kavanaugh has categorically denied the accusation, saying in a statement, I did not do this back in high school or at any time..... Just when you thought the Supreme Court hearing couldn't get any more dramatic, this drops. I mean two weeks ago it was protesters dressed like handmaid's tail and now we're dealing

with allegations that Brett Kavanaugh sexually assaulted a girl when he was 17. And what's also wild about this is like the fifth prominent person Donald Trump has supported who's been accused of mistreating women. You know, it's almost like he's like realize it. But if he likes someone, it's because they have a shady history with women. You know, it's like shame, recognize shame. So like if Trump says there's something I like about this guy, we should probably investigate them. That's what I'm saying. And now, like, Kavanaugh denies all of these allegations. Adamantly, he says, he says, he says, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. the the to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the, the. the, the the, to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. too, too, too, too, too. too. too. tr tr tr tr tr tr tr tr tr tr true. tr too. tr too. toe. toe. to He says he doesn't remember that party.

In fact, he says he was never even 17. He just went 15, 16, 18, just to be safe. Just to be safe. And now look, nobody at this point knows all the facts in this story. But because these allegations are so serious, Senate Republicans are saying they want to get to the bottom of this, as long as it doesn't take too long. Christine Blase, Ford, the woman accusing Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh of sexual assault, says the FBI should investigate her claims before she agrees to testify before

the Senate. But Republicans are pushing for a Monday hearing. Chairman Grassley argued nothing the FBI or any other investigator does would have any bearing on what Dr. Ford tellowsy the committee, so there is no reason for any further delay. Senate Republicans have a message for Dr. Christine Blasey Ford. Testify Monday or they'll move on with a vote. Wow. So Dr. Ford wants the FBI to investigate this incident before she testifies, and Senate Republicans are insisting on Monday or nothing. Like how tone deaf is it that in the case of an alleged sexual assault, the woman is saying,

I feel like you guys are moving too fast, and these dudes are like, well, we're ready, so we're doing this? And now, to be honest, I understand why Senate Republicans are in a rush. Like, they want to get the Supreme Court seat filled before the midterms, which they're afraid that they may lose. It's the same way I made sure to pose with every celebrity at the Emmys before I lost to John Oliver. Because I knew. No one wants testimony though, right? They've already decided that there's something fishy about this woman's story.

This was in the early 1980s, it's now 2018. She was 15 years old, she's now 51. There is ground for some suspicion there. He was appointed to a federal appeals court, or federal court. Where was she then when he was appointed to that court? I don't, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. She had repressed her memory, supposedly, till 2012,

but it was when he was up for the Supreme Court, that suddenly the stakes got higher. Yeah, that's a good point. Why are these allegations about his fitness for the Supreme Court only coming up now that he's going up for the Supreme Court? Get the f-fix out of here, man. Like, this is exactly the time you'd expect this stuff to come up. That's the whole point of hearing. Like, it couldn't work any other way. Like, that would be the weirdest episode of law and order ever. If the lawyer came out like, your honor,

why would the prosecution submit the murder weapon as evidence now? During the trial, the timing seems suspicious to me. I arrest my case. And now I'll be honest. I'm not shocked that people would question the motives of a woman who's come forward with these allegations. It's pretty much par for the course. What's been interesting though is that there are some people arguing that even if she is telling the truth, that shouldn't affect Kavanaugh's Supreme Court appointment because boys will be boys.

These are sensitive issues, but high school behavior. How much in society should any of us be held liable today when we've lived a good life, an upstanding life by all accounts and then something that maybe is an arguable issue took place in high school? Should that deny us chances later in life? Even for a Supreme Court job, a presidency of United States or you name it? Okay well first of all we know it doesn't exclude you from the presidency. I mean yeah yeah, no, that pussy grabbing ship has sailed. But really, this is your argument? Like, look, we can all agree that drunk 17-year-olds do a lot of crazy shit.

I mean, they eat food off the floor. They pee on cars. Hell, some of them draw penises on their friends' faces. But, but, th th th th th th th th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thu thuu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thuat, thuillue, thu. thu, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but thu. But, but thu. But, but thu. But, but thu. But, but thu. But, but, thu. But, thu. But, thui thu. But, thu. thi. thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, the. But, but, but, but, but, but, but let's not add attempted rape to the list of stuff drunk boys do. And I'm not saying like if you did something awful when you were 17, you should be excluded from society forever. But I also don't think we should just brush it aside because it happened when the dude was young. Like, this is for the Supreme Court, not your local softball team.

He would go on to be one of the 10 most powerful people in the country. And yeah, I said 10, because it's the nine people on the Supreme Court and Biance. It's 10. And look, all I'm saying is this. All I'm saying is, I think it's worth taking the time to try and find out the truth. Because if it turns out that this allegation is true, would you want a guy making decisions about all women's rights if he couldn't even respect one woman's right to choose? We'll be right back.

So as I was saying to you earlier, one of the things with Kavanaugh that's been really interesting is an argument that I've seen repeated for different people who've been accused of doing something generally, it's generally you know sexual assault or harassment and it was a senator defending Kavanaugh who I think articulated it best and I I think we have the clip that they'll play I just wanted you watch this. Do you think that any of these claims are legitimate? No I don't. I think think I the I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th th th th th think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I think I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi thi thi. I thi. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I have th. I have th. I have th. I have th. I have th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the. thi. I the. the. I the. I the. I the. th. that any of these claims are legitimate? No, I don't. I think this woman, whoever she is, is mixed up. I know the judge very, very well. I know how honest he is. I know how straight forward he is. I know how he stands up for what he believes and what's right. And frankly, if you were going to believe anybody, you'd believe him.

Now, you see, what I find interesting about that is, I don't believe that that senator is wrong. He goes, I believe he's an upstanding man. I believe that he's lived an outstanding life as I've known him. And what I've come to realize is, in society, we're seeing this over and over again, whether it's Bull Cosby, Les Moon Viz, Brett Kavanaugh, whoever it is is is is is not saying Kavanaugh is guilty of anything. I'm just saying what we see is people struggle to understand that two things can be contradictory and true at the same time. You could know somebody as a great person and they could also be doing something that you

don't know about that makes them someone that you wouldn't recognize. You get what I'm saying? It's just th is is is is is is is just th is just th. th. th. th. th. th. thi is just thi is just thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi... thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi.those simple ideas. It's like, Bill Cosby, people were like, oh, he's a famous comedian, is the guy who sells Jello. We didn't know that he's a part-time rapist. Do you get what I'm saying? Like, no, no one knew that. And then there were people who said, but that's not all the time. Like, your parents, in life,

you'll learn things about your parents that you never knew about them. You could have testified about things. And then like, you turned 30 and you're like, I didn't know this about my parents. I didn't know this. I tha th tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's tho' tho' thi. Like, it's just, you know what I mean? Like you can find out things that shock you.

Like, in South Africa learned this lesson with Oscar Pistorius. I won't lie. We were genuinely shocked and people did not know how to piece those two images together. Here was an inspirational man who didn't have legs, who motivated a nation, who did so much for charity and worked with young kids and everyone and now people were saying oh but he murdered his girlfriend and people like but that can't be true because he wasn't that. But there's a reason we call them skeletons in the closet is because they're skeletons in a closet. There's not skeletons on the porch. That's not what we say. Do you know what I mean? It's something that

I don't understand. People don't understand it. Every single one of us has a side of us that nobody knows about. And it may not be sexual assault for everyone, but it's something. You know, it's like people know you and then there's like the you from your internet search history. Do you know what the that's that you, that's like completely different. And a good example is it was with Brett Kavanaugh specifically. The friend who was in the room or the friend who Dr. Ford said was in the room, he hasn't been called to testify, which I find strange. And they said like, oh, he says he doesn't remember all of this and Kavanaugh's not

that kind of guy. But here's an interesting fact. His friend wrote a book a while ago about being a drunk in high school and just being like and he writes about one of his best friends who he said would party heart and throw up all the time and the character's name in the book is Bart O'Keviah. I mean that's not a great student in all from bread to Bart. You've got to change the name completely. That's like really Bart. That would be like if someone wrote a book about OJ in high school and they're like my friend Apple Juice Simpson you'd be like yeah we we still know who you're talking about so all I'm saying is this I'm saying this like just because you know somebody is being good they may have been good to you it doesn't mean that they were never bad

to somebody else you know it's always that age old story you watch the news somebody somebody somebody th somebody th somebody th somebody th somebody th somebody th so so the th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th I I th I th I th I th I th. th. th. th. thi thi thi. thi. thi. they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they'll they'll they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they's they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're the the the the the the the thi thi. I thi. I tho. I'll they. I'll they. I'll the the the tho. I'll the. I'm they're. You watch the news, somebody was caught busted being a murderer, and what do the neighbors always say? They say, I can't believe it, he was so nice. He was so nice. Every day we would meet when he would be taking out the trash and he was so nice. And they go, but ma'am, do you know what was in that trash? It was human body parts. It's, it was like, it was like, it was, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, I. I. I. I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I'm, I'm th. th. th. thi. that. that. th thr-I's that that thr-s. that thr-a. that. that. parts So I'm just saying like two things can be true at the same time. We'll be right back Hey everybody John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast the weekly show. It's gonna be coming out every Thursday. So exciting you'll you'll be saying to yourself TGID. Thank God it's Thursday. We're gonna be talking about all the thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th th th th th th th th th thi th th thi th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. the the the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election. Economics. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on

sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth, but in importance it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guests tonight are here to discuss the new book Rising Out of Hatred, the awakening of a former white nationalist. Please welcome the author, Pulitzer Prize winning Washington Post reporter, Eli Sazlo,

and the subject of the book, Derek Black. Welcome to the show. I'm going to jump straight into it because this is honestly one of the most fascinating stories I've ever come across. I remember an op-ed you wrote about it, but I'm going to the show. I'm going to jump straight into it because this is honestly one of the most fascinating stories I've ever come across. I remember an op-ed you wrote about it, but I'm going to start with you Eli. How do you decide to write the story? How do you even believe the story and where do you start in saying, here's a former white nationalist? When did you start learning about Dillon? theirclerk? So I was writing about Dylan Roofing D. the the of nine people at a church in Charleston, South Carolina, historically black church, and he'd spent a lot of time on the site called Stormfront. So I went on the site to try to learn about him, learn about this community.

It's the largest hate site in the world. And there were certainly threads on there saying Black, who was the son of the founder of this board, David Duke's Godson, had been raised to sort of lead this ideology, and then had disavowed it and sort of disappeared. And so I wanted to find him, and I did. So you're looking for a man by the name of Derek Black, who people are saying on the site is basically this ideology, someone who's inspired them. When you're reading through these threads and ideas, you say hate, but like, what are

we specifically speaking about? Well, in Derek's case, we're talking about somebody who was on the radio every day. He had a radio show every day, talking about anti-immigration talking points, talking about spreading false information about IQ scores with different races and saying that white people were smarter. We th th about somebody in Derek's case who had already run for office in Florida, spreading this kind of information and been elected, had risen to a position of power. And then had written a letter later on to the Southern Poverty Law Center, unwinding all of these talking points, all of the reasons he'd had the facts totally wrong, and trying to convince other people that these conclusions were disastrous for the future of the country. Now Derek I mean on your side you

have a really interesting story you know a lot of the time people will say nobody's born racist but I feel like you are one of the few people who's closest to this place because oh because I mean your your mom was married to David Duke. You were born into a family of the Ku Klux clan so from the very th, I th, I thiiiiiiiiiiiii- th th th th th th th the very very very thi, I tha thi, I tha thi, I tha to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to tha. totu, totu-I, totu. tote, tote. tote. tote. tote. tote. tote. tote. tote. totally totally totally totally tot born into a family of the Ku Klux Klan. So from the very beginning, you were taught to think a certain way. How do you even begin the journey of starting to think differently? I didn't until I was at college. I spent my, all the younger years getting more, more involved and feeling I really needed to help push this

as my parents were getting older. And it wasn't until this weird experience of being outside of that in this different environment and seeing people who were not supposed to fit into my in group, but who I really liked and we were hanging out, and also a college community that really condemned everything I was saying. And I wanted to know, first thing I want to know is why do you condemn it so strongly. Like I think it's fine, it's not attacking anyone. So you genuinely believe these ideas.

Like just when you were alone in your room by yourself, you went like, I believe that black people have lower IQs, I believe that people cannot mix. I believe, like, this was like, this was like your truth. Yeah, this whole sections of white nationalist organizations that spend their time putting out journal papers, putting out articles, putting out things that seem very scientific that make a lot of sense, misusing statistics and misusing facts and making a case for all this just being the unfortunate truth that people don't want to believe. So you go to college, you meet kids who are not like you, do you come in with your clanhood or do you, like I genuinely want to know, like how,

like did you, or did you disguise your identity as a person? Was that, was that how you started working in this world? I didn't disguise it. Since I was a, from the time that I was a little kid, I was very aware that it was controversial and I just didn't bring it up. In anything that was not the white nationalist conference world, and as I got older, it became harder and harder to have two parts of my life. And before college, everybody who I was doing stuff with,

that was not white nationalist, just sort of said, oh, you know, I don't like that a lot, but what am I going to do? Let's hang out. And it was college was the first the first the first was the first was the first was the first was the first was the first was the first the first the first the first the first the first the. And it was college, was the first time where I had this community that said, this is disgusting, we do not accept this at all, I'm not going to just let this pass. So you have all of this information at hand. But when do you actually start changing?

Because I mean, like you say, you have people who've opposed you, to the story, like, thii, th, to, th, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th, th, th, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, thi, and, thi, thi, and, thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, they.. And, they. And, they. And. And, they.a.a. And.a. And, the. And. And, the. And. And, the. And. And. And, the. And. And, to. And. And. And. And observing from the outside, started to change somebody's mind on what they believed was right? I think one of the things for me about reporting this book was learning how hard it is to affect that kind of change. I mean, from students on this campus, it took two years of sustained activism and engagement with Derek in order to begin to even see some kinds of results of a change. And that was civil resistance on campus, shutting down the school at one point to sort of say, these beliefs are not okay, you don't belong here.

It was people reaching out to him, people who were the victims of his prejudices, who invited him over for dinner, sat with him again and again and again, even when they weren't seeing change, just hoping that maybe Derek would go beyond the stereotypes and start encountering the humanity beyond what he believed. It took a long time. It sounds like a process and it also sounds like it's extremely unrealistic for it to be a process that works for everyone because you would need every single person who believes in these ideas to be engaging with people who are not like them, which is really difficult. You went on to become someone who started writing about your experience.. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi be be be be be be be be be be thi be thi be thi be thi be thi be thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, te, te, te, te, te. te. te. teeeeeea. too. teeauuuu. too. too. too. too. took, took, took too. t who are not like them, which is really difficult.

You went on to become someone who started writing about your experience. I remember I first read your op-ed in the newspaper and it was amazing how you spoke about what you believed in, how people changed you, and why you now believed differently. But when you go back and speak to the people who you preached hate to, they don't come with you. No, no. When I left, I left alone. And I spent a lot of years totally alone. There were a couple of people who I could keep in contact with, but once I left that community, it wasn't even clear that I was going to be able to talk to my parents.

And there's not an anti-racist world that you just moved to, so I spent a bunch of years not knowing what I should do and not talking to anybody and going by my middle name and trying to believe that I never would have to speak about this again and that maybe in that way I could continue living a life. So now not only are you not racist, your last name is black, which is like an added part of the story. The part of the book that really, really gripped me was when Eli's writing about your relationship with your father and how he genuinely treats this like a death in the family,

where he sees you as the son he wishes he never had because you now go against everything that he truly does believe. How do you grapple with that? I mean, we struggle with this so much as human beings. I'm assuming you still love him because he's your father, but you also speak out against the rampant hatred that he professes and taught you. I think in a kind of weird way, the stuff that I was raised with that although all of society thinks we're nuts, this is truth and we have to say it

and that we've gotten there by being independent thinkers who are curious and look at facts even though everybody says it's wrong, like that stuff was also the things that I needed to be able to leave it and I know he doesn't exactly see it that way but I think in some ways he respects that I believe something strong enough that I have to talk about it right because that's the value that I was raised with even if it didn't end up how he hoped. When you look at the conversation around white nationalism and Donald Trump. There is no mistaking the rise, as your book talks about, of this rhetoric.

The Stormfront website that, I believe you designed, correct? Parts of it, you designed, I think when you were like 10 years old, which is insane. That website after Trump was elected experienced its highest traffic. So we're starting to see that there is something in what Trump is saying that connects with this message that is completely white nationalist. I think that's totally true. I think the even scarier thing is,

the things that Trump are saying that are pretty explicitly white nationalists also connect with a large portion of white voters in the country. I mean, we see studies all the time that 30 or 40% of whites believe they experience more prejudice. They're the victims of prejudice and discrimination more than people of color or Jews, which is factually wildly off base. But by playing to that sense of grievance, white nationalists and people in power like the president, by saying things like, we don't want people here from shit, whole or you know we need to build a wall and by retweeting stats about you

know black on white crime factually incorrect you know it's effective it gets people elected and and I think that's the scary power of this ideology it's historically embedded in a lot of what the United States has been and unless we go through the act of confronting it it's going to continue to grow and be a dangerous force in what the country is. Let me ask you this, Derek, before we go, as someone who grew up white nationalist, as someone who studied it, I guess, more than anybody, would you say you consider Donald Trump a white nationalist? He's not a white nationalist, because a white nationalist is this little insular world where everybody believes a bunch of very specific things.

But I was raised with a really firm belief that has always been true that America was founded as a white supremacist country, that a lot of people's assumptions about race in America remain there and that that's untapped. And what he taps into is the same thing that white nationalists tap into when they're trying to recruit recruit recruit recruit recruit recruit recruit the their their their their the and that that's untapped and what he taps into is the same thing that white nationalists tap into when they're trying to recruit when they're trying to convince somebody to go from some sort of garden variety sort of racist belief to something that's ramped up that's more extreme that that process looks exactly the same. So in a way it's almost like a latent or dormant idea that is embedded in America. It's something you have to work against.

Right. I think the big surprise recently has been that it's a lot harder to be an anti-racist than it is to be a white nationalist because being an anti-racist means you're saying we have to change the status quo. Being a white nationalist is saying that things are fine as they are and you're good and don't give them an inch if they call you a racist. That's easier to tell somebody they don't have to do anything. It's a powerful story and honestly I was fascinated by it because you share your experiences in a really transparent way and there's only one question I had and it sounds like a joke and it sort of is but are you not afraid that like you now know the non-truth

so what if like would you flip the other way does that make sense because you you believe something was true for so long and now you go like no the the opposite is true do you ever wonder if it's the other way around like how do you how do you contort your brain around that idea? Because I've never flipped on an idea like that extreme if that makes sense. So how do you say to yourself, no, now I believe the correct thing? Yeah, yeah, no it's legitimate. It is hard. And I think for those years where I was living in the wilderness, right? Metaphorically, like what do I thin.. th. th. th. thia thia thia thia thia thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, thi, like, thi, like, like, that, like, like, like, like, that, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that, that, that, that, that, that, time saying, like, what are my assumptions about the world?

What do I think about things? What do I think about people? And how much of that comes from something that I never even really challenged? And figuring out how I make choices and what I speak about and what I do, there's still a part of me that says maybe I can't even trust things I feel convictions for, but I do think that I can say that if I if I'm driven by what doesn't hurt people like what makes life better for people than attacking a white supremacist system that is unfair that is unjust and being the person in the room who challenges the latent white

nationalism is something that does that. It makes life better for people, including white people. And that is a value that I don't think could be wrong. And that was what was missing before. It was the fact that I considered the only people who were important who I needed to advocate for was this little group, and realizing that that's, that's wrong wrong that that that that th. th. th. thi that thi thi thi thi thi thi thi that that that that that that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that's that's that's that is that is that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi. that's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that's thi. that's that's that's that's that's that's thi. thi. thi. that fact that I considered the only people who were important, who I needed to advocate for, was this little group, and realizing that that's wrong, that the little group has to expand, and that we're all a part of this, and if something hurts other people, then we have to figure out a way to change the system so that we are all included and that we can all work forward there. And you have to be the voice in the room doing that because it doesn't just happen.

The status quo is not going to lead us there. The only thing that undermines a white nationalist who's trying to ramp somebody up to a more extreme version of racism is somebody in the room challenging those beliefs, keeping it from escalating and reminding them that what you're saying is wrong. Do you think white people would be more effective at that? Do you like, do you think there could be more white people who are actively doing that as opposed to as you said, turning a blind dancing like, I don't like that you believe that but let's still hang out? It's a white person in the room who has the strongest voice to counteract a racist thought. We were aware of that as white nationalistl. thapapapapapapapapapapapapaped that we th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. were aware of that as white nationalists. We were explicitly aware that if you're talking to somebody and you're trying to get them to

go from those Mexicans or maybe the south side of Chicago is a problem and get them to escalate into it's about race. Right. The person who's going to ruin that for you is another white person who's saying stop that because it's equal. Like they have they have literal skin in the game and what they say shuts any sort of white nationalist racist thing you're saying down and it stops the room. And that's the thing that people can do. That's the thing that people at college did. It's the thing that anyone anywhere can do is speak up because being silent is a choice. Wow.

Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you, Eli. Rising out of hatred is available now. It's a fascinating story. I really recommend it. Eli Sazlo, Derek everybody. Thank you for all. Thank you for all. Thank you. Thank you. The Daily Show with CoverNoa, Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show Weeknights at 11.10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central

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