The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Carving a Path to Equality for Transgender People

Episode Date: June 14, 2023

Control over the rights of transgender children continue to leave folks in a frenzy. Janet Mock discusses her work on the groundbreaking FX series “Pose” and reflects on being the first transgender woman of color to write and direct for a TV series. Plus, Jessica Williams speaks with members of the transgender community to find out how transphobia affects their everyday lives. Finally, transgender athletes' rights activist and track cycling world champion Veronica Ivy discusses the debate over inclusion of trans women in women’s sports.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. The other big culture war story right now is being pushed by people with actual political power and it involves transgender people. Now wait, I know what you're thinking. Scary trans people? Isn't that a throwback from like five years ago? There was an outrage cycle around bathrooms. You remember that?

They're going to be kidnapping our children and wearing dresses while they poop! But even though none of that scary stuff actually happened, they've already kicked off an exciting new sequel. It has become a new front in the culture war. Republicans across the country are pushing to ban transgender students and often specifically trans girls and women from competing in school sports. It meant everything to me to be able to run as a gender within identify and to run as who I know I am.

I really just found who I am as a person like through sports. More than 25 states across the country. Now considering anti-trans policies in school sports, three of those states have already signed them into law. Republicans pushing for the ban have been unable to point to any evidence of a problem. Will you cite any examples where a young woman was denied a scholarship opportunity or a title here in Arizona because they were competing against a trans athlete who outperformed them?

I can't at this point. So the answer was no? At this point, no. But it's only a matter of time. It's only a matter of time. You know what I love about Republicans? Is that when it comes to major issues with tons of evidence, like climate change,

or coronavirus, or gun violence, they're like, huh, let's wait until we see more evidence. But now, there's an issue that barely even exists, and they're like, we don't got time for evidence. There's then then, then, thin thin thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi. that, that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi. thi. thi. thi. tho, tho, tho, tho, that's that's tho. that's thoooooo. thoan, thoan, that's that's that's that's that's that's thoooooooeeee't got time for evidence. There's a plastic trophy at stake. Now, the one thing that people making these laws always point to is a single story from Connecticut a few years ago. That's not evidence that trans kids are stealing opportunities from everyone else.

Aren't Becky's kids have taken away more slots on sports than trans kids. Honestly, I think conservatives are missing the entire point of th. th. th. th. th. th. th. than trans kids. Honestly, I think conservatives are missing the entire point of youth sports in the first place. Because it's not really about the tiny minority of kids who will go on to get scholarships and perform at an elite level. It's not about that. It's about kids achieving their personal best, developing good habits and self-esteem and learning to bully the chess team. And culture warriors say these laws about trans kids and sports are just their their their their their their their their their their the chess team. And culture warriors say these laws about trans kids and sports are just about being fair to the other children. But the truth is, it's not stopping there.

In the state of Arkansas, the state just became the first to ban gender-affirming medical care for transgender kids, even with parental consent. In Alabama, there's a bill that would make it a felony, punishable by up to 10 years in prison for a doctor to prescribe gender-affirming medication for trans people under age 18. A similar measure before North Carolina's general assembly, as some lawmakers look to ban gender-confirming treatment, then't tp-o-ltermone treatment,

puberty blockers or surgery. Senate Bill 514 would also compel state employees to notify parents if their child displays, quote, gender non-conformity. No, man, you guys are playing. So North Carolina is going to make its school employees snitch on kids anytime that they don't, quote, conform to their gender? What does that even mean? Conforming to your... like I caught up late with the other boys in school. So what? You're telling me that if I was in the system today my gym

teacher would be on the phone with my mom? Hello, Mrs. Noah. Yeah, no, no, we need to talk. The way Trevor is throwing a ball. No, no, no, no, no, no, thiii, no, thi, thi, thi, thin, thi, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. too, like, like, like, too, too, too, thi. too, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. tooooooooooooooo. too. thi. thi. thi need to talk. The way Travers throwing a ball. No, no, no, no, more like Tracy Noah, eh? Yeah, no, I have to snitch. Sorry about this. Guys, this is not just transphobic. It's also sexist and everything else. Right? Because these Republicans act. They act like all they care about is the health and well being of the kids. But it kind kind the game the game the game the game the game their their their their their their their their their their th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to thi. to thi. to to to bea. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. to. toe. to. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe.. When they start adding on stuff that's basically just, and don't play with dolls or we'll tell your mom. And look, I'm not a doctor, right?

As I found out when I try to take out my cousin's appendix, RIP and GOSNITE. But these Republican lawmakers are also not doctors, and people who are doctors see things very differently. Major medical organizations such as the American Medical Association and the American Academy of Pediatrics oppose the bill. With alarm and dismay, pediatricians have watched bills through state legislatures across the country. It threatens to health and well-being of transgender youth. Young people when they reach a certain age, if they have gender dysphoria, which means that they experience mental duress because they are transgender, might not want to go through puberty. And so their doctors might push them puberty blockers so that they

don't have to go through puberty and can make a decision when they're older about whether or not they want to medically transitions. Me turning into a man, the man the man the man the man the man their their their their th. th. th. their their th. th. their th. thi, thi, their thi, their, thi, which th. thi, which thi, which th. thi, thi, which thi, which th. th. th. th. th. th. th. Which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which their, which their, which their, which their, which, which th. Which, th. Which, th. Which, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi. thi. thi. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te.'re older about whether or not they want to medically transitions. Me turning into a man is just probably the most horrifying thing ever I could ever think of in the farthest reaches of my mind is me not going on the hormone blockers anymore. The hormone blockers are like my life saver. So look, medical professionals and trans people themselves say that treating kids early can be extremely beneficial, which makes you wonder what's really behind all of these laws? If you ask me, it's hate. Yeah. A lot of these people are angry because trans people don't conform to a neat idea of gender.

And as humans, we like things when they are neat and organize the way we want. It's why people got so mad when they said Pluto wasn't a planet. Well, if it's not a planet, then what is it? Well, actually, it's a rocky Kipur Belt body that struttles line between... I'll kill you! But as scared as some people might be by the idea of a trans person, it is nothing compared to how scared trans kids are dealing with problems that they don't always understand in a world that oftentimes does not accept them. So if these states are going to be passing laws to help anyone feel safer, it should be them.

My guest tonight is a writer, director, and producer of the new FX series, Pose. Please welcome, Janet Mock. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me back. This is a really exciting reason to have you back as well. Um, the new show posed, which is going to be on a theat. Um, the new show posed, which is going to bethe show. Thanks for having me back. This is a really exciting reason to have you back as well. The new show Pose, which is going to be on FX, is a show that is first in many ways.

I mean, I know why I'm excited, but what would you say is the biggest reason you're excited about Pose. I got a job. Is that simple? I like that. Yeah, basically. Well, you know, Ryan Murphy created it. He's a prolific showrunner, shows like Glee, Nip Tuck, of course, the people versus O.J. Simpson, where he won a lot of Emmys and all the trophies.

And so when he invited me to Hollywood to have a meeting with him to talk about this show, I was excited by the fact that it would the first thapapapap first th...... th. th. th. thi th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. the fact thi. thi. thi. their thi. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the show show show show show show show the show show show show the show the show the show the show. their. I is is their their their their their their their their their their their their thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. theeat. theat. theat. theateat. theateat. theeat. theeat. theeeat. theeeat. thrli. I's thrli. I's the first of its kind to talk about the New York City ballroom scene, which a lot of people have known since Paris is burning, but to also center characters in people who have never been centered before, trans women of color. Right, and that's what's really fascinating about this story is that you have a show that is set in the 80s, but it's showing you a story in the 80s that many people maybe didn't know exist or many people didn't know exist, but just didn't think about. And what I found fascinating about watching pieces of the episodes was that a lot of people will say about transgender people now that where did this come from?

This is a new thing, this new thing as if it's like a trend. But you go, no, trans tell these stories as authentically as possible in the 80s? Yeah, I think that there is something about the fact that when you look to the past, you can learn a lot about your present. For me, I saw that HIV, AIDS, poverty, harassment, and violence are things that they were dealing with in 87 as well as today. And so knowing that 26 trans people were murdered in the United States last year, almost all of them women of color, I thought it was important that we memorialize the people who we've learned so much from, the people who've contributed so much to our movement, the people who have given me access to be able to be, you know, the first trans women of color,

to be hired in a Hollywood writer's room, the first to write and direct a television series and to be on a television series and to share it with five black and brown trans women of color who are the stars in the center of our show. It's a pioneering show for so many reasons. You have five trans women of color who are centered in the story. The word centered is so important in this because you know I read a story on the Hollywood reporter about how they did a study on Latino characters on TV and they found that half of them were always represented as criminals and when you look at stories of the transgender community it's always a fringe element you know in so many stories you know it's

always going to be sex workers it's going to be something that seems like it's not in the mainstream. Was it important the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the the to the the the the the to the the the the the the the the the the the story story story. I to the story story story story the story story. I to to the story story story story story story. I to to to to the story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their story story story story story story. their their their their their their their their their story. their story. their their story. their their story. their. their story. their. their story. their story. their story. their story. their story. their story. their story. their story going to be sex work, or it's going to be something that seems like it's not in the mainstream. Was it important for you to center these people and show the spectrum of life that you can be living? Yeah, I think so often too, we're often always in cisgender stories, non-trans people stories as a sidekicks, as someone who's a martyrs, to teach the mar-a, toe........, th.. th. So, the the the the their, th. So, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. their, their, their, th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, is is is their, is their, is their, is is their, is is their, is is their, is their, is is is their, is their, is their, is their, is their, is.. It. It. It's, is. It's, is. It's, is. It's, is. It's, is. It's, is. It's, is. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. It's, is important. It's, is to be real and authentic. And in our show, we center that experience and we don't show the origin stories of our characters. We show them as they're fully embodied, just trans people living in New York City. And with that, you have diversity, you show that trans folk are not a monolith, that we don't have the same dreams and desires, know, protagonists. And I think that that, for me, as someone who loved television, who grew up as TV being a part of like my babysitter and a single parent household, it showed me that I can be centered and that

I deserve to be seen and heard and that at the end of the day, the show really is an unconventional family drama. Right. And we see so many stories of people watching TV shows or movies and for th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, thee, the, being being the first time, seeing themselves on screen. You know, you saw that with Ava Duvene's Rinkle in Time. You saw that with Black Panther. You see it with people going, I've never ever thought of how I've never seen myself. You know, I remember going to watch Wander Woman with friends. And my female friends were like,

they were crying during that for granted, you genuinely do. When you were growing up watching TV, were there any characters or any shows that in some way maybe did make you feel like, you know, there was something that you could aspire to? And was there something that really toucest you? Felicity. She really was the reason why I moved to New York City. Right.

She really was the the. I saw this white girl with curly hair who was smart and love Lauren and wanted to be with you know Ben that's all I wanted. Right. And so now, right, and now you're in a place where you're not writing and I think do you, do you feel that gravity of putting people on screen that identify people out there who maybe have never seen themselves on screen in any way shape or form? Yeah, the fact fact that we're not just merely points of their their their, their, thau, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, team, team, team, team, team, team, so, I, I, so, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I....... And, I, I's, tine, tine, tine, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, team, team, team, team, team, on our show, the fact that we're not just merely points of trauma, right? Because so often, trans bodies are usually dead and inactive bodies. And so here we have five women who have different dreams, who have love, who want desire, who want to be desired, who are funny, who are villains, who are all of these different things. And so in that way, when you center these people on the show, you show people that, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the., the.e.e.e. And, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their on the show, you show people that, number one, it's not scary, that they're not, that they're not horrible people, that they're not freak shows, that instead they're humans that you care about and TV being such an intimate platform, you know this, people

invite you into their home every night. Right. They get to care and hopefully do something. I think it's going to do all of those things. Thank you so much for being on the show again. Pose a Sundays at 9pm on FX. Janet Mark, everybody, we'll be right back. So, what is it that scares so many people about transgender communities? And what's it like to live as the focus of that fear? Jessica Williams finds out.

Iowa's most famous for its cornfields, butter sculptures, and butter sculptures of cornfields. Until last summer, when transgender woman, Megan Taylor, tried to check in to the Drury Inn in the city of Des Moines. We sat down with Taylor herself for an exclusive tell-all. I could tell when I checked in to the hotel that it was it was I got this real Megan Taylor. It was July 12th 2015 you presented your ID to the hotel manager. But she was on to you. Fearing for her life, she took immediate action. I estimate it's a little unusual that's checking into the hotel.

They're dressed as a woman, but it's a man's driver's license. And that's when the cops came, and all hell broke loose. But let's rewind here. What triggered the cops to respond? You pull out a gun and then the cops come and you're arrested? And none of that happened. What, you pull out a knife? No. What did you do drugs?

Nothing of the sort. Well then why the hell were you arrested? I got arrested because I was a black chance to the women. Specifically, cops held her because she didn't have a prescription for her hormone pills. And this is 2016! What were you doing in Iowa? I was there going to a funeral. You were there for a funeral?

Yeah. And did you get to attend the funeral at all? How long were you in jail for eight days? I was there for eight days. I tho-took her time. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. Ugh. I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I tho, I th, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, that, tho, tho, that, that, that, that, thooooooooooooooooooooooooooo jail for eight days. I'm sorry, I... It's terrible, take your time. Ugh, I thought it was tough being a black woman. But compared to a black transgender woman, I might as well be a white frat due to the Dave Matthews concert.

Transgender women get arrested all the time, especially black transgender women, just by walking down the street or anything. And by anything, she means literally anything. Because of discrimination and profiling, at least 47% of black trans people will have at some point in their lives been incarcerated. Let's underline bold and set fire to that fucking graphic, because it's 47%! You'd think there'd be lost to correct this.

But instead, this year alone, state legislatures have introduced 175 anti-trans bills. Many make it legal to discriminate based solely on religious beliefs. And then you have these bathroom bills. They would find and imprison transgender people who use public restrooms that don't match the gender on their birth certificate. That's what's really triggering this trans panic. Just listen to Colorado representative in Elmer Fudd look-likeike Gordon Kling and Schmidt. Should we fear the transgender community? Well, they not only want to be confused about their own identity, but they want the rest of us to be confused with them. Now they want the government

to join them in that pretense. They're making us into liars. Wow. Okay, I met with these these these the the tha tha tha tha tha thia thia thia thia thian thian thian thi thi thi thi thi thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thra, I thi, I thi, I'm thra- thra- thra- the, the, the, the, the, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, tre, thi, tre, tre, tre, tre, tre, tre. trean, trean, trean, trean, tre. tre. tre. tre. tre. tre. tre, tre, the Okay, I met with these so-called liars to find out what their evil intentions are. There's a notion that trans people are perpetrators in some way that we're sneaking and trying to trick you for the purposes of having sex with you. And that's not the case at all. People just want to see male and female like it has to fit in one of those two boxes and if it doesn't doesn't doesn't doesn it's surely not a choice. That's all you need to know. Well not according to Kling and Schmidt who thinks that we're all going to get attacked in the bathroom. A man can go into a ladies room and assault you and your little girl. Especially in our most important bathrooms. Next time ladies you go out to Olive Garden watch out who's going to be in the bathroom. There. Thea. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. that is is, to to to to that is that is to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi is is is is is th is to th is is to th is is to to to to to th is is is to to to th is is is to th is is th. th. th is th. th is th. th is th. th is th is th. that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is to to that is to that is to to that is to that is that going to be in the bathroom. There's no reported incidences of any trans person ever raping or assaulting anyone in

any bathroom ever. If anything, trans people are the ones getting assaulted. These people are up against some bullfix. There must be some small way I can help them out. Give me some offensive comments or questions and I'll give you some good answers. Why you can't use in your day of life. Why your feet so small? You think my feet are small? You have a f-.

Wow, woo, okay, that's guns-a-blazing on that question. Um, I don't currently have a s- So, how much? How much? How much for... Sex? Oh, theymeh. your ID. When do you tell them that you're really a man? I don't know when it's appropriate? Do you have cadaver tits? Don't tell me what that is? What's your real name? Yeah I just want to know. Yeah what's your name? Tell us. Did you

chop it off? Stray women date you? Or game with a cost? Do you like to suck? What's your real name? The transgender community is more pre-a? th. th. th. th. th. th. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. their their th. thu. thu. their thu. their their their th. What is their their their their their is. What is. What is. What is. What is. What is. What is. What is. What is. What is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. their. Yeah. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. t. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the thereatened? Have you ever been attacked by a transgender person? Is that why this is happening? No. Have you ever had a traumatic experience with a trans person? I wouldn't call it traumatic. No, I- Devastating? Yeah, no. You haven't.

So why does he feel this way? Dresing like a woman, and he's not a woman. Wait a second, this guy's a preacher too? And he thinks what? It's not just a psychological disorder, it's actually a demonic spirit. Okay, so now they're possessed? Go on. I would be comfortable talking about religious freedom,

but I'd have to change into my alter ego if you're okay with that. You have to change into your alter ego. Who are you are you, you, you, seeing this I am actually waiting for this man to transition so that he can feel more comfortable during our interview oh and also hey heads up I am not judging him for his personal choice until he took out his phone to judge others for their personal choices and Deuteronomy 225 says a woman was not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear woman's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.

I don't remember that part, but there is a part about shellfish or stoning people to death. Getting tattoos. But what about their sincerely held religious beliefs? They can go shit in their f-h-hatt because we have separation of church and state because we believe in our constitution. Nevertheless, these bathroom bills are being passed and Gordon is doing everything he can

to make it happen. Get used to the idea of having your women and children share bathrooms with cross-dressing men who are going to expose themselves to you. Do you, for whatever reason, associate being transgender with being a pervert? I mean, that is perversion. It's people who label themselves as transgender for the purpose of getting that access to violate the rights of others. Is it fair to say that because you're a priest, that you're a pedophile?

Well, of course not. Because some people th course not? Why? Because some people are criminals, and some people are not criminals. Could you take that logic and apply that to the transgender community? They're apples and oranges. Do you mean apples and apples? Unfortunately, a lot of people think like Gordon. So how can we end this transphobic epidemic?

Hopefully they can understand that we are striving towards becoming a more authentic version of ourselves after a lot of soul-searching and a lot of thought and sometimes a lot of trauma and tragedy. Passing these bills is absolutely going to just add fuel to the fire and ignite trans panic. Trans panic. Coming soon, they've existed since the beginning of time. They are not who people think they are. Girl, you know we need to elevate that light tha tha tha tha tha tha their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the beginning of time. They are not who people think they are. Girl, you know we need to elevate that leg. They come out at night. Stop! No! Or during the day, depending on their schedule.

You forgot your hat. They have an appetite. When they're hungry. You're really going to love this salad. This summer, get ready for the most boring movie ever where transgender people cause trans panic. Lights went out again. Even though they're just like the rest of us.

What else is on Netflix? Yeah, just like us. Just like us. Pride Month is coming to an end today, but that doesn't mean the conversations around gay and trans rights need to stop until next year. So to keep the conversation going on our end, I want to introduce Veronica Ivy. She's a transgender rights activist who is the first out trans woman to win a track cycling world championship. Please welcome Veronica Ivy. Welcome to the show. Thank you. So I'm going to say from the top because I've noticed this happens in every

conversation. Every time you bring up trans rights or if you have a discussion and you say trans people tense up. I understand why. We live in a world where now there are people who are so transphobic that it makes it almost impossible for people who aren't to ask any questions, to have any conversations, to have any discourse that doesn't lump them in with transphobia. And so I'm really glad that you're joining us on the show to talk about this, because it feels like one their thi a thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I's thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm really really thi, I'm thr-a, thr-a, thi, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, their, their, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thr-a, thr-s, thr-s, tr-s, tran. tran. trans, tha. thau. thau. thr-a. thr-a, talk about this, because it feels like one of the biggest issues in America, and yet no one can seem to talk about it. So let's start with your journey. You've competed at some of the highest levels in sports. And you know, as your hoodie says, sport is a human right.

That is what you believe. Talk me through. Talk me through just a little bit of why you believe, to to to to to to to to their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. And, toooooooomoomorrow, thi. And, thi. And, thi, thi, of why you believe fighting for transgender athletes to compete in the categories they'd like to in sport is so important. So it's a fundamental tenant of the Olympic movement that sport is a human right. So in their Olympic charter, in their fourth fundamental principle of Olympism, they say participation, sport is a human right, and they mean that at the competitive level. So this issue, people like to say their their their their their their their their their their th th th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theating thi thi thi theating for theate the, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. te, te, te, te, te, te, te, te. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea and they mean that at the competitive level. So this issue, people like to say that it's a complicated issue and I don't actually think it is. I think it's very simple. It all boils down to do you actually think that trans women and intersex

women are real women and are really female or not. And if you do, it's very simple. Just stop policing who counts as a real woman. Because this has had history of racism built into it over the years. It's not an accident that the intersex athletes who get singled out are women of color from the global south. Because who gets singled out for scrutiny is based on white women's conceptions of femininity and that's being weaponized against trans people too. So it's a fear of protecting the fragile weak cis white woman from the rest of us. So there are many elements to

what you said which I appreciate. So let's try to break them down. One thing that confuses me personally is it it seems like it, it seems like it's what you said, which I appreciate. So let's try break them down. One thing that confuses me personally is it seems like we have discussions about who should participate in which category and how. You know, on the face of it, it seems simple as you say. You know, if somebody identifies as a woman, if they're transgender, they can compete against women who were born biologically, and then, if not, then not. But then, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their th thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi. thin. thi're transgender, they can compete against women who were born biologically, and then if not, then not.

But then there are many who would argue, who are not transphobes. There are many who are born biologically women who will say, but you have an unnatural advantage over me, and that makes the sport unfair. How do you respond to that? Yeah, there's lots of ways thays ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways ways that you that you can that you can that you can that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that you can respond to that. So the first is, the very language of you were born and I'm not biological somehow, like I don't think I'm a cyborg.

So like this idea that like, oh, you're not a biological woman. Well, I am a woman, that's a fact. I am female. So all my identity records, my racing license, my medical records, I'll say female, right? And I'm pretty sure I made a biological stuff. So I'm a biological female as well. So this question of, do trans women have an advantage over cis women? We don't know. In fact, there's basically no published research on this question.

However, there's good reason to think that there isn't, but I think it's irrelevant because we allow all kinds of competitive advantages within women's sport. So one example I love to talk about is the 2016 Rio Olympic women's high jump final. First place was over 6 foot 3, 10th place was 5 foot 5.5. So a 10 and a half inch height difference between first and 10th at the Olympics in high jump. And we call that fair. So the range of body types within the female category

is way, way bigger than anything that could be attributed to trans women. So if there's an advantage, and I'm not saying that there is for trans women in women's sport, it's not an unfair advantage. But also we've been competing at trying to compete at the highest level for decades. We've been allowed to compete for decades and no one has won an elite world championship, no one has won an Olympic gold medal. This Tokyo Olympics was the first time trans women even qualified for the Olympics. So this idea that trans women are suddenly

going to take over women's sport is an irrational fear of trans women, which is the dictionary definition of transphobia. So it's interesting that you say that. It's interesting that you say that, because I think if I were to push back or, you know, not even playing devil's advocates, there are a few things that could be argued. Number one, you could argue that although the trans woman who competed in the Olympics didn't dominate, she did beat a field of women who might have qualified for that position, right? Secondly, when you talk about the height differences, I agree with this completely, but there are many who would argue

that we exist in a state where a lot of the surgeries are new, a lot of the technology is new, transgenderism is not new, we know it throughout time, we've seen it throughout history, but there are many who would say, that we are creating some sort of standard. And the reason we have tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thu, we thu, we are thu, we are thu, we are thus, thus, thus, thus, how thus, that thus, that the, that the, that the, that the, that the, the, that the, that the, that the, that tho, that tho, that tho, that tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, theaa............ that thean, know, we talk about this is, it's the reason they have to regulate a performance enhancing drugs. For instance, what is fair?

What can you drink? What can you not drink? What can you consume? What can you not consume? What can you not? Some would say, if you are, you should be able to compete. My question then comes in from a really, honestly, a different place. I look at somebody like Oscar Pistorius from South Africa, right? He was the double amputee.

And Oscar Pistorius actually went, well, I want to compete in the able-bodied race. And people like, well, do you have an advantage, do not, et cetera, do not, et cetera, because of the prosthetics. Then could they not be an argument if there is no advantage in that, that then trans women should be able to compete, but in the men's races then, because they still be able to compete in the sport? But they're women, Are they really female? Because if you think yes, then we belong competing with other women. So it's an extreme indignity

to say, I believe you're a woman except for sport, right? So you can't single out one of the most important facets of our society. We are obsessed with sport. Athletes are some of the most highly praised, highly paid people on the planet. Definitely. So you can't say that like I believe you and I support you but not for this one really big thing that society really cares about. Right and I'm I'm saying I get confused by why we distill it down into just two things. I'll tell you why. As we learn about gender being a spectrum, as we learn that people can identify in a multitude of ways, we accept the fact that we don't have to put people into categories of man or woman. You know, that's why they say protect trans women, it's like otherwise

which women are you protecting. It's an argument that doesn't separate or diminish anybody, but gives more specificity to what people are saying. And so when we talk about these things, I sometimes get confused by why we're tryn't tryn't tryn't tryn't thea thea thea thea than't thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, their, their, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thin, thin, thin, thin, th the. thean, th thean, th th thean, thean, thean, thean, the. the, the, things, I sometimes get confused by why we're trying to force the people into two again when we've been taught that there isn't a two, whereas a sport like let's say boxing for instance. In boxing, people fight across all weight categories. They don't just go men's boxing, women's boxing, they go, no, men's heavy weigh, and then they'll be like middle weight, their weight, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, they, they, they, like, they, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th... thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, let's, like, let's, let, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let bantam weight, flyweight, featherweight, there's like guys who weigh nothing punching each other. And I mean, genuinely, I've always thought to myself, it's interesting how in boxing they went, well, we don't just want to see guys fighting, we want to see guys fighting at different weights. The UFC does the same thing. They go, you're going to fight in your weight class, which has, it seems, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, to, to, I, to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to, I, to, to.... And, I. And, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th and I'm not saying it's your job by the way, but if you've ever considered a world.

Oh, then great. Have you ever considered a world where it becomes more specific then? You know, the same thing they did in the Paralympics. They had to find a way where they classified how a single amputee and how do we grade that? So do you not think that we're limiting ourselves by saying men's sports, women's sports when we now know that there are so many more genders? So I'm really going to dissatisfy you right now. Well you don't know what I'm looking for those or you can't. I do. I know you're looking for something other than what I'm going to say and

that that is a very important question thapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapap important question question question question question question question question that that that that that that that is a very important thian thian thian thi thi thi that is a very important thi. that is a very important th. that is a very important th. that is a very important important important question question question that is a very that is a very that is a very that is a very that is a very that is a very that is a very that is a very that is a very th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi is a very important important important important important important important important important important important important important important but it's a separate question. The question we're talking about is, given how sport is currently structured, should we include trans women and intersex women in women's sport? And my answer to that is a clear yes. If you want to say, should we revisit how we structure all of sport, I would say yeah we should do that. But if your only reason for doing that is because you can't just accept trans women or women, that's a problem I got with you. I understand, and I'm not saying it's because people can't. No, no, I completely hear what you're saying. No, I completely hear what you're saying. So let me ask you this then. You know, again, eliminating fringes, because everything on the fight, thiiiiiiii. th, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm thin, thin, thin, thin, th. that's, I'm, I'm, I'm, that's, that's, that's, that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin, thin, thin, thin, thr-a, that's a thr-a, that's a thr-a, thr-a, that's a that's a that's a thr-a, that's a that's a that's a that and an argument. If somebody comes to you in good faith,

and I mean genuinely good faith, and they say to you, you know, Veronica, I was born a woman, I was born a woman, I've suffered or lived and experienced life as a woman, this is where I am, this is where my body has gotten me to. My body has had the testosterone or estrogen that it had had had had had hadto this point and that's why I am here and I feel like you may or may not have the advantage but we don't know yet, so why can't we wait to know these things before you compete against me? How would you respond to that? Because that's not how human rights work.

So the way human rights work is that the default the default the default the default the default the default the default the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the default is the burden of proof is on the people seeking to exclude, not the people seeking to include. So I want to share something shocking with everybody. It wasn't until five years ago that we actually studied the relationship between natural testosterone and performance and we found that there is no relationship whatsoever between unaltered natural and dogionous testosterone and sport performance. About 0.5% of elite male track and field athletes at the World Championship level

are below the women's average of testosterone. Competing with men with 80 to 100 times as much testosterone at no competitive disadvantage. And that fact has not been picked up by the broader media landscape. So when you say I'm a woman and I have this much testosterone, well first there's a huge range within women. Definitely. Into the male range. And there is no relationship between her having a competitive vantage over women with lower testosterone. So there are elite cis men with low testosterone lower than a given woman who's outcompeting

her. So our bodies and biology is not this simple. We thought it was and it isn't. So we know that when you add testosterone to your natural levels, like doping, you tend to get bigger, stronger, faster. We also know that when you drop your testosterone levels, like trans women tend to do, you tend to get slower. But what your natural level is has no relationship to your sport performance. And we've been singling out that factor, testosterone, against the scientific evidence.

But I'm a little confused and forgive me if I'm slow to understand this. You just said the natural level doesn't give you an advantage or a disadvantage. But you said if people do have an addition or a subtraction of it, then it does give you a disadvantage or an advantage. Well, it affects things. So for example, like my body doesn't produce testosterone and it hasn't for a decade, but I switched sports from a road cycling event to a track power event and I switched training and I put on

25 pounds of muscle and I went from being able to squat 170 to 375. So I I don't produce any testosterone, and I squat a lot. And that's just because I change training. So it's not so simple as, OK, if you drop your testosterone, you will get weaker. Because if you change your training, your diet, your rest and recovery, your sport, your performance can change. Your body will change. It seems like we're always going to end up in a cul-de-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-s-n-s-n-s-s-n-n-n-n-n-s-n-s-s-ni-s-s-s-s. th-s. thoer. th-ni-n. thoer. thoer. thoer. thoer. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. And, th. And, toe. And, toe. And, to-n. And, to-n. And, to-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-s-s-s-s-s. Ande-s. Ande. Andease-suuuuuuiceau. Ande. Ande. Ande. Ande. Ande. Ande. Ande. Ande. Ande always going to end up in a cul-de-sac

because many people use it as a cudgel, I've realized, to scare people. Oh, the transgenders are coming for you, your bathrooms, your sports, everything. Be careful what you say. But, but it feels like there are many discussions to be had. It feels like, as you said, you know, the research, the science, everything hasn't caught up, but I appreciate you for coming on the show and discussing this with us. Thank you so much for joining me. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcast. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.