The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie - "Dear Ijeawele" and Raising a Child to Be a Feminist

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

"Dear Ijeawele" author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie discusses stereotypes of feminists, the implications of chivalry and the expectations of women in public life. Originally aired June 2018. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm so excited to have you here because I've been a fan of your work for a long time. I've been a fan of your words for a long time. I've been a fan of your words for a long time. I have to ask you before we get into the book. Thank. Thank. Thank. Thank. Thank, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, th, th, to, to, to, to, to, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the the the the the the the the the the the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, been a fan of your work for a long time. I've been a fan of your words for a long time. I have to ask you before we get into the book, as a person who is considered as one of the most foremost feminists of our time.

Why is it that so many people see the word feminist as a negative thing? Because I think that feminism has long been associated with the most extreme versions of it. So people think a feminist is sort of a crazy woman who hates men and doesn't shave. And, right? And so all of these sort of really crazy negative stereotypes that have been attached to feminism. And so people don't want to associate with it.

That people who've said to me, why do you call yourself feminist? Why don't you just say associate with it. There are people who've said to me, why do you call yourself feminist? Why don't you just say you're a humanist or an equalist? But that is what feminism is. Right. Feminism is about justice for everyone. You have to name your problem. And the problem is it's women who have been excluded.

So we need to call it what it is. In many ways, that's the same thing people say about Black Lives Matter, all that they go to one. You say all Lives Matter. We know the rest of the lives matter. The problem needs to be a question. The book that you have written here is really different from your other offerings. It's a feminist manifesto in 15 suggestions. And I like that you keep making it easier and easier and easier for people to be feminist.

This is a really interesting book. How did this book come about? So a few years ago I wrote, my friend had a baby and so she said to me, I want her to be feminist, I want her life to be better than mine. What should I do? And then, so then I thought I should write her a letter. It was an email that I wrote to her, I that I that I that I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I, I, I, I, I wrote, I wrote, I wrote, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th...ed, thed, thed, thed, thed, thed, thr.ed, thr.ed, thr.ed, tha, tha, tha, thr.ed, tha.ed, thr.ed, thr.ed, thr.ed, thr. thr. that I wrote to her. And then I decided to turn it into a book and I made a few changes, but really it was for my friend. And only after I had a baby, my daughter is two and a half, did I realize how easy it is to sort of tell people what

to do about child raising when you don't have a child. Right. It's much easier to deal with a hypothetical child than a real child. But I'm still trying to follow all of the suggestions. It's just that it's more difficult than you would think. What would you say is the most difficult part of teaching a child or raising a child to be a feminist? You know, it's not that it's easy to do, you know, you don't have to play with dolls, but then you go to the store and the girl's sections are just dolls. Right. And you know, there's still very much that blue and pink binary in the wall.

And you're trying to teach your child that, you know, you can be whoever you want to be. So it can't you can you can you you you the the the the the the the the th. You can't th. You can't th. You can't th. You can't th. You can't th. th. th. th. th. thi. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thoom. thoome. tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thoom. tho tho tho tho tho tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. thin. thin. thin. th. th. the the the the th. th. the the th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thin. thin. You the. You te. You te. te. te. tee. te. te. tee. te. tea. te. te. te. t a lot that you need to push back, right, right, you know, from the world. But, but it's doable. I'm very optimistic about how we can change the world. What I've always admired about your words on feminism is that you don't seem to live in a world where it's abstract or it's just extreme. Like, it never seems to me like you talk about thi. thi thi, like thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm tho, I'm tho, I'm tho, I'm tho, I'm thomomomomom-a, I'm thomomomomomom-I I tho, I thi, I thi, I I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I'm, I'm, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm very, I'm th it is, and that is the way it is. Like in the book, for instance, there are some suggestions where you talk about how you can encourage your daughter, if she's a daughter, to be anything she wants to be, to like blue, to play with boys, toys, etc. But that shouldn't mean that she should shun her femininity.

That's not what feminism is. So when people find their their their thing they could say to themselves that just makes it easier to understand? Think of yourself as an individual. Right? Right. There's no, I mean, I think feminism and femininity are not mutually exclusive. I think that the early feminist in the West shone femininity because femininity had for so long been used as a way to put th down. So women were property, you're supposed to look pretty and stay at home. So I think when women started to push back against that, they were like, we don't want pretty.

But I think now we've come to a stage where we can accept that people can be many things. You can be feminine and feminist. It depends on whether you you to be what you don't want to be, then that's not feminism. So I usually say to women who are thinking about it, just think of your individual self, right? What do you like? And is that thing causing you harm? Right? Is it somehow, is it reducing your spirit? Is it making you resentful? Because I think that when there's real equality, resentment will not exist? Right? In relationships where people are unhappy because there's a gender problem,

there's resentment. If there isn't a problem, you just, you don't have resentment. You kind of know it's intuitive, I think. Right. Would you say then it's still possible for a woman, I mean, I know my mom always says this to me, but some people struggle with the concept. Would you say it's possible for a woman to say, I am a feminist, I believe in equality, but I still want a man to open the door for me. I like that gesture, or is that problematic in of itself?

You know the thing about, by the way, your mother is wonderful, just from reading your book. Thank you. You're so fortunate to have been raised by her. in you is because your mother is too. You know what's funny is... Now we don't... Now we don't... I appreciate that, but the way you said it is, it's a beautiful compliment that sounds like an insult. You know, it's just like everything good in you is from your mom.

The rest of that shit is you and your dad. But yeah, but how do you respond to that idea? I think gestures like holding the door shouldn't be gendered. I think it's a lovely thing to hold the door, but we should hold the door for everyone. Right. I hold the door for men and women. So I think the idea of sort of holding the door for a woman because she's a woman. I have trouble with it.

I'm quite happy for people to hold this sort of idea of chivalry. Because chivalry is really about the idea that women are somehow weak. Right, right, right. And need protecting. But we know that really there are many women who are stronger than many men. Right. Right. So really what I think is that the people we should protect are people who need protecting, whether men or women or children, which is also why I'm they........ And, they. And, they. And, they, they, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they. they. they.a. they. they. they. they. the they. they. the the they. they. they. they. they. the, the, the, the of have trouble with the idea of women and children when women are classified in the same, you know, when there's a tragedy and we say women and children should leave first. I think actually is the people who are weak on well, you know, young who should leave first. Yeah. Wow, this is like a more eloquent argument of what some of the guys on the Titanic said.

They're like, I think Chim my mother would want me to leave with women and children to stay behind. But I really do understand what you are saying. There's a fascinating passage in the book, and this was, it's called the seventh suggestion, and in this, it's, the line, the paragraph starts with, never speak of marriage as an achievement. And then when we skip forward, it says

when Hillary Clinton was running for president of the United States, the first descriptor on her Twitter account was wife. The first descriptor on the Twitter account of Bill Clinton, her husband is founder, not husband. Because of this I have an unreasonable affection for the very few men who use husband as their first descriptor. Do you think in that moment it made you feel like in society we've created a world where the best thing you can be as a woman sometimes is a wife to a man, but a man can have every other achievement? Was that the problem with that idea for yourself? Yes, yes. But it's also the larger question of what we expect of women in public life. Why? I think that there are many people

for whom Hillary Clinton is not relatable unless she primarily defines herself in domestic terms. W. W. W. W. W. W. W. W. W. W. W. W. W. W. W.. W. W. W. the w. the w. the w. the w. their, wi. their, wi. their, wi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the wi. the wi. thi. thi. thi. the best, the best, the best, the best, the best, the best the best the best the best the best the best the best the best the best the best the best the best the w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w wi. W. W. the wi. their their their their wi. thi. thi. thi. think that there are many people for whom Hillary Clinton is not relatable unless she primarily defines herself in domestic terms, wife, mother, but wife in particular. Because I think it makes people feel comfortable. I think people are very, people don't know what to do with the idea of a woman who has power or who's seeking power. And so the way to somehow temper that is to say, well, wife, I'm a wife, so therefore I'm not that scary. Right. And it's not, I mean, obviously I think marriage is a wonderful thing and it can be, you know, just such a joy and all of that.

But it's that we raise girls thinking about the wedding dress, right? I don't know how many boys think about their wedding tuxedos. Right. Not at all, yeah, that's true. So what it means is that there's an immediate imbalance, I think, right, in just the idea of what is aspirational. And so I think what we should do is in raising boys and girls, teach them that love is wonderful, marriage is wonderful, but none of that is something that one should aspire to. When you say to a girl, oh, you got your PhD, but when are you getting married? to marriage, the immediate connotation that will come to their mind is that means you're raising a daughter. When raising a child, when raising a child, when raising a child, when raising a child, thap, and a, and a, and a, and a, and a, and a, and a, and I, and I, and I, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, th is, and, th is, th is, th is, th is, th th is, thin, thi, thrown, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and to, and to, and, and the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to, to, to, to, right, right, right, right, right, to, to, to, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to, the immediate connotation that will come to their mind is that means you are raising a daughter.

Yeah. But from reading your work, a lot of the work has to be done by men. Men need to participate. Why is that so important? Because men have to be on board. I think you can change women all you want. If you don't change men, nothing changes. Because we share the world, right? It's the world, right. It's th. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the world, thi. A thi. A tho. A the world, a the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work the work, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to toea. toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. to to live in a world where men are more likely to listen to men. Oh. It's true. Wow. You don't think so. So then how do you convince the first man? I think some men have already been convinced.

I think people like Barack Obama, for example, is a very good role model because he's feminist and he's cool. So he's actually a good, and we need more men like that to speak up. I think men need to speak up, men need to be on board, men need to not think of feminism as something that's attacking them. So I think some men think that. They need to understand that feminism is something that's good for everyone. Because really, when all of us are released from gender rules, we're all better off. And, right. And in, right. And in, right. And in, right. And in, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, and in the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, and in th, and in the th, and in th, and th, the th, and thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, and, th, and th, and th, and th, th, th, and th, and thi, and thi, and thi, thi, and thi, thi. And, theeean, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii means, thi means, thi means, thi means, thi, th rules. We're all better off. Right. And in the end, it's about justice. Don't we want to live in a just world?

So there's some men who've been convinced, more men need to be. Trevor, you should get cracking. I'm gonna call my mom, that's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna call my mom. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really love Street into you every single time. It's an amazing book, DIAWLE is available now. Chimamanda Adichy everybody. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The Daily Show with Cover Noa, Earn,. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more.