The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Christiane Amanpour Discusses the War in Gaza | Salman Rushdie On Freedom of Expression

Episode Date: May 2, 2024

CNN Chief International Correspondent, Christiane Amanpour, shares with Jon Stewart how her show, "The Amanpour Hour" highlights differing viewpoints as she navigates covering the war in Gaza. Also, author Salman Rushdie chats with Jon about the near death experience that inspired his latest book, "Knife," and his role in the fight for free expression in America. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election. Economics. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth, but in importance it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as

podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. The Daily Show is taking a break this week, but don't worry, we handpick some of our favorite episode highlights from the archives just for you. We'll be back with brand new episodes next week. In the meantime, enjoy today's episode. today's episode. Welcome to the Daily Show, my guest,'s chief international anchor and host of the Aminpur

Hour. Welcome to the program, Kristian Aminpur. Hello. Hi. I wanted to have you want to talk to you. The world is ending. Well, it seems that way. Yes, that's why the eclipse was so beautiful today because it looked like it is ending. Well... It seems that way. Yes, that's why the eclipse was so beautiful today,

because it looked like it was ending, and yet it brought so many people together in this incredibly divided country. Honestly, it was very emotional. It was very emotional. It was very emotional. So, just the answer to this is we just got to do this every day now, the Eclipse? Yeah, yeah, I think. Can't we just pretend?

Focus people's minds. Put something over it and just block it on there? What is happening? What is the frustration you're working over at, what is it? What is it name, CNN? The big red letters? I've heard really, you know? What? What? That's a new branding. Let me ask you this. We see it on air and everybody's working so hard.

What are the journalists behind the scenes talk about as their frustrations? What would they like to see covered? How would they like to see it covered? Or are they executing it in the manner which they think they're satisfied? Well here's a thing. You know you've been talking talking a talking a talking a talking a talking talking talking talking talking talking talking talk talking talk talking talking to to to to to to to to to to to their to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their to be to be too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. their their their their their their their their the manner which they think they're satisfied. Well, here's a thing. You know, you've been talking a lot about Israel, obviously about Ukraine. Our major problem covering Israel Gaza right now, this phase of it, which has been going on for six months, is that we can't get there. This is an unprecedented situation.

Journalists are not on the ground in Gaza. And it is... Well, they're the their. They're being killed. You're right. You're right. I'm talking about independent Western journalists are not able to get there or anybody else, except for those people who are absolutely risking their lives every single day. Media workers, journalists almost a hundred have been killed according to the CPJ in Gaza, West Bank and Lebanon in six months. It is an unprecedented situation.

And it goes beyond the horror of what's happened to those people and their families. It's about telling the story of Gaza, telling the story of the Palestinians. You know, actual local journalists would tell you about A people, right? A people, not just, you know, dehumanizing numbers or the like, but eight people. And when we go to do our job, and I'd be doing this pretty much since the first Gulf War, we go there to be the eyes and ears of everybody who can't go from who's not a local.

But we're not able to get them. Is this an American problem? No, it's an Israeli problem. No, no, no. I don't mean that. I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean that we that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that. I that that that that that thi. I thi. I thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to be to be to be to be thi. to be thi. thi. to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be their their their their their their their their their thi. thi. thi. the. the. thean. thean. thei. their their their their their their their thease. the. this country might not be getting the information, but on social media, on various things, or with Al Jazeera, the world is certainly seeing a very different picture than what Western journalism is showing. That is very true.

And if this terrible law goes through to throw out any organization from Gaza, including Al Jazeera, it would be a terrible thing. yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, yet, thiiiiii. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I thi, thi, thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the world, I I I the world, I the world, I the world the world thr-a, I thr-a, I thr-n-s is thr-ni. thr-ni. thro-ni. thro-nileau-nile, I thr-nile, I thr-a, the world, the world, I It would be a terrible thing. Yet another chilling effect on trying to tell the truth in this raging war. So this is a real, real problem, and it is true. Many people do get daily news from social media, from actually, as I say, the very brave camera people who are there with their phones and with their cameras and who are feeding things. It is remarkable. It is is remarkable. It is remarkable. It is is remarkable. It is is remarkable. It is remarkable. It is remarkable. It is remarkable. It is remarkable. It is remarkable. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th.. th........ the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. thea. thea. thea. thea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. tea. tea. tea. thea. thea. the are feeding things. It is remarkable. You were covering these types of events from 1983. We all remember that was the occupation in southern Lebanon. It was right.

The Israelis invaded their their the Lebanese civil war. There was and the rise of Hezbollah in that occupation. There was the Islamic Revolution in Iran. We're watching these stories play out redundantly. Yeah, you know, there's two things, obviously. One is that, you know, history is not always a great teacher, but the other is that, you know, leadership matters. And we are in a crisis of leadership around the world.

I genuinely believe, and even as bad as it was in the 1979 in the 80s and all that there was a period let's say in this part of the world in the Middle East in the 90s where there was an actual peace process. Now we can poo poo it, we can laugh at it, we can say that it failed, but it failed because the people responsible for enacting it and actually sabotaged it. So there have been instances where peace can be forged, where both sides can come together, and it depends on the leaders, you know. But this will take more than both sides. This will have to be a regional piece.

This is a grinding war with no real, I mean, the idea is, well, we're going to do this until we eliminate Hamas. So you're going to do this until we eliminate Hamas. So you're going to just kill everybody? Like what does that even mean? What is the plan? There are two things, right? Israel was attacked on October 7th, the worst single day massacre in its history. Of course.

And it has the right to defend itself, but, right, the issue is you stay within the guidelines of international law. So now you heard, you know, America is getting very frustrated and concerned. Well, we're very concerned. If, if, Christian, if true. You know, we are concerned. You know. It reminded me of something that happened at the State Department during the Rwanda genocide. When a journalist asked the State department spokesperson in 1994, 30 years ago this week, how the woman said there have been acts of genocide committed in Rwanda. And the reporter said, well, how many acts of genocide does it take for you to call it a genocide?

And she said, I'm not able to respond to that position you're taking. So you know, we have a genocidologist. We have an issue with calling what's happening certainly back then. We have no issue roundly condemning or being very clear with our moral issues. And the other side of it, this isn't about the ability to defend yourself. It's not even about the moral issue. It's about, after 9-11, the, after 9-11, the vindictiveness in me, the bloodlet, like, it certainly rose up, but very clearly our response was flawed in its efficacy. We made a mistake. And you know that President Biden said that to Prime Minister Netanyahu when he went there, so did Lloyd Austin.

So did many Americans don't make the mistake that we made. But President Biden, when he was in a position to say that to America after 9-11, didn't say that. That's not the position that he took then. Then the position was has failed in this moment. And I'm surprised at, and maybe this isn't really the case and I'm misrepresenting this, but the passive nature of the Arab states.

Well, look, that is a big issue because they have now all rushed to make peace and certain accords with Israel, the UAE, Morocco, Saudi Arabia was apparently on the verge of doing, it still is working on it. And I actually have spoken to a lot of Arab leaders, I've said to them, look, for all these years since 1948, when the Palestinians left, the Nakba, when they were forced out, when they were chased out, when they voluntarily left, all that what happened and that's what that's what the Gaza is right the the the refugees from 1948 where when are you going to stand up also and take ownership of this problem because the Arab states have had Palestinian

refugees for you know pretty much 75 odd years well certainly given them I mean has probably a larger citizenship ever Jordan has no no none of them have. Right. Because... Look, they're all terrified of Hamas and Hezbollah. That's right. The dirty little secret over there is the Islamists that they helped foster through Majas's

and all those other actions. They're scared, shitless of. They just are. doubt about it but people the leaders think one thing but they don't want accountability for people people think another thing and the people are essentially very upset the people in that part of the world and the young people as anybody would be watching all over the world are very very very upset why tell me why this is naive or wrong that the Arab states form a DMZ to immediately deescalate this problem how do they notthe Arab states form a DMZ to immediately de-escalate this problem. How do they not step in and form some type of guarantee the security of Israel in that moment,

guarantee the security of the Palestinians and stop this carnage? So there have been certain plans floated. At the moment, the Israeli government wants none of it. It doesn't want the UN, it doesn't want the Arab countries. The only thing that the Prime Minister is talked about... Does it not see its isolation in the world? That is what its allies are trying to tell it. That you had the moral high ground and you are very close if not having lost it. And this is a problem for Israel because the truth is, and the leaders, that if this actually isn't

solved politically, then unfortunately it will keep happening, this vicious cycle. In the future of this as you look at, when you talked about leadership, then who is the leader that emerges? It's clearly not Netanyahu. Well I think the Israeli situation is really interesting because you have two contrasting facts. The overwhelming majority of the country supports the war. They also want their first priority be their families to come back. They need a ceasefire and a deal to bring their families back.

But the overwhelming majority of the Israelis do not support Benjamin Netanyahu. So what the Americans are saying now, and you saw Senator Schumer and others, that there has to be, the Israelis do not support Benjamin Netanyahu. So what the Americans are saying now, and you saw Senator Schumer and others, that there has to be another election at some point, God forbid we would be meddling in another country, but nonetheless. There has to be election at some point... By the way, that's against the rules-based world order. This thing, yeah. And then, and then potentially, hopefully, open up another real possibility of a negotiated solution that's backed by the Arab states as you mentioned, by the United States,

by Europe, by all the vested... But why is this not the top priority of why is this not the only session that's going on at the UN? Why is everybody not stopping whatever the hell they're doing and hammering this out? Because as you know, at the Security Council, there's a lot of people with vetoes and things like that. It hasn't got to that point yet. And the big, big issue right now is famine stalking Gaza and the death toll that's mounting and mounting and you know even, Jose Andres, the chef who you know so well, after the killing of seven of his workers, he said, I spoke to President Biden and I said, how can you also send weapons

and also call for respecting life and the end of this famine? So there's so much that's just... And how can we only respond to this tragedy when it's seven Western aid workers that are killed? You know, when I heard the figure of children, over 10,000, unprecedented. I've never heard anything like that. Of course, they're haunting. And I'm, listen, for Jews, this is heartbreaking because, you know, I don't necessarily

have that much of a connection there, but there's this idea that like, they're sticking they're they're thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when thi, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when thi, when thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. the. theateateateateat, when they're, when they're, when they're, when I, when they're, when I, when don't necessarily have that much of a connection there, but there's this idea that like, they're sticking it out for all of us because we're not safe anywhere in the world, which, by the way, if that's the issue, that's kind of a larger problem to begin with. I think for Israelis, for Jews, for Palestinians. Right.Crucial is that there has to be real leaders, their a real real real real real real real real real, theirahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah their their their their has their has their has their has their has their has their has their has their has their has their has their has their has their th. th. thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus is thus is thus is th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th th is th th th th is thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, thus, the is the is the is the is the is the is the the the the the the the the the the is the And the most important thing also is to be able to converse and discuss. There is nuance and diversity within communities that is not allowed. But why is that not allowed on American people? Do you have any idea what's going to happen?

But you always, you're always in the thick of it. But I have all these diverse opinions on my program. That's what I try to do to be any any any any idea. to be any idea. to be any idea, to be any idea, to be any idea, to be any idea, to be a any idea, to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to the to to to to to the thick of it. Like, you know. But I have all these diverse opinions on my program. That's what I try to do. I try to bring Israelis, Arabs, Jews, Muslims, all the interested parties in this particular conflict onto my program to talk. People who've lost family members, whether it's an Israeli or a Palestinian. People who've waged peace, whether it's an Israeli mother or a Palestinian. You know, people who've waged peace, who've tried to wage peace, whether it's an Israeli mother or a Palestinian mother. I have them on my program. Young people who still believe in the peace process, even though it's evaporating before

their eyes, they come on to the program. So there is hope. They have to be empowered these people. their their. You know, it's always, you can't talk about it in America, but you know where they talk about it, Israel. Yes, they do. They argue about it in Israel. Yes, they do.

But to be fair, to be fair, they do. There's very robust arguments going on, but even of the hostages tell me, it's still a very traumatized society. And yet, I promise you, this incredible woman, Sharon Lifshir, she said to me, we, Israelis, sometimes the Arabs look at us as if we're all the same. We're not. And we cannot look at Palestinians as if they're all Hamas. They are not. And for a woman whose parents have been held hostage to be able to say that and how we must make friends with our enemies otherwise we will keep dying. But we cannot keep putting the onus on these individuals that governments and nations have to step up and step in because it is all slipping away very rapidly. And Ukraine is the next point you have to do because that's a big one we cannot take our eye of the no I thinks that was that that that that that that that that that thi that thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi that that that that that that that that that that that tho tho that that thus thus thus tho the tho the the the the the the the weens. wee wee the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they must they they must they must they must they are that that that thus. I thus. I thus. I thus. I thus. thus. thus. they're thus. they're thus. they're the they're thi they're the next one you have to do, because that's a big one.

We cannot take our eye of the brain. No, I thought that was fixed. I think that's done. I think that's done. I think you should have Speaker Johnson maybe? Speaker Johnson. I can't even tell you how many times I've called that. Let me trying to bring in, we were trying to help them get interpreters who helped American troops in Afghanistan.

And it was going into this omnibus bill that was going to keep the government open. And I can't tell you how many times I called that office and left messages on the office and left, they're just going to make sure the Afghan Afghan, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to make, to make, to make, I, their, their, their, their, than, their, their, their, their, tho, thi, their, their, and, and, and, and, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and th................... th.... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tha. tha. tha. tha. tha he said when he called back? He didn't call back. You got me. Air Saturdays on CNN. And AminPorn Company airs weeknights on PBS. Christiane Annaport. Thank you so much. Thank you.

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Slashziprecruiter.com slash zip. Zip Recruiter, the smartest way to hire. It's been said that nice guys finish last. But is that really true? I'm Tim Harford, host of the Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a jerk. We'll examine stories of villains undone by their villainy and monstrous self-devaring egos and will delve into the

extraordinary power of decency. We'll face mutiny on the vast Pacific Ocean, blaze a trail with a pioneering skyscraper and dare to confront a formidable empire. The art of fairness on cautionary tales. Listen on the IHart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. John Stewart here. Unbelievably exciting news. My new podcast, The Weekly Show. We're going to be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches.

Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the Daily Show, my guest tonight. A world-renowned and best-selling author. His new book is called Knife. Meditations after an attempted murder. Please welcome intoto the program, Salman Rushdie. Sir. First question, obviously. How are you? This was obviously a traumatic experience. How are you feeling? I'm okay, you know, I mean, surprisingly. Yes.

Nice to see you. First question, obviously. How are you. I'm okay, you know, I mean, surprisingly. Yes. But sometimes there are good surprises. This was one. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the th. th. the the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the.. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. the. the. theumatic experience. How are you feeling? I'm OK, you know, I mean, surprisingly. Yes. But sometimes there are good surprises. This was one. I'm pretty much recovered. I have to say, and I know this, it's

it sounds peculiar to say this, because of the traumatic experience that you endured. I love this book. I too' this book. It's a beautiful work of introspection. I feel like I know now how your mind works. You know, I've read other of your books, but you really do a wonderful job of taking us through how you think. Yeah, it's weird how I think.

No. I mean, I have this kind of free associating mind, which goes from the moon to a movie, to a book, to a piece of mythology, to a joke. I had to read this book with another book next to me. To get just some of the references. But it's, it allows you, you know, sometimes you'll read an author's memoir and there's a certain self-consciousness to it.

But maybe because this is about a traumatic incident, I feel like your defenses were down, and it was very revelatory. Yeah, I mean, there's a subject. I mean, it's, what I felt is that it's, it starts up, there's a love story which tune, th, tune, tune, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, tom, tom, tom, tom, tom, that it's, it starts, there's a love story which turns into a murder story, which turns back into a love story. Yes. The love story, by the way, is with his wonderful wife, Eliza, who is really the hero maybe of the book. Yeah, no, I mean, she did a huge amount, and I wouldn't be here in good shape without her.

And plus, she's an amazing writer. Right. There's that too, I say, with a certain amount of gritted teeth. Yes. Is there competition in writerly families? No, not really. Actually, one of the nice things about this is there isn't. We're enormously supportive of each other's work. I thought a really interesting part of the book is, spoiler alert at the end, when you go

back to Chautauqua. Shatakwa is the famed community in upstate New York where they bring in speakers and where this unfortunate event happened. And you go back to revisit the scene of it, but also the jail, where they are holding this person that attacked you. Yeah, it was a last minute decision. We were actually on the plane flying up to, because I had this desire to go and revisit the scene of the crime and show myself that I was standing up where I fell down. Sort of. But then on the flight up there, I thought, Chautauk was a really small town, and if he's in the county jail, how far is that from the

institution? And it turned out it was like five minutes drive. So I thought, well, let's go to the jail. I jury, it's a really boring jail. It's a little cell block and a wall with some barbed wire. But I thought, you know, he's in there, I'm out here. That feels good. You win. And what happened is a weird thing happened. My feet started dancing. You were dancing. No, my feet were dancing.

But what does that look like? It's just chiming, but the body stayed. Well, and I said, well, Eliza, well, I said, stop doing that. I can imagine this gentleman just glancing out the window for no apparent reason, going, is that the guy? Like, yeah, and he's dancing at the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the car the the the the the the the the the the the th. thee. thee. thee. thee thee thee thee. thathing. thateathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. that, that, that, that, thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thathing. thatheatheatheathe. thathe. that. th. th. th. th. that. that. that. that. that. thee. thee. thee. thee. theeat. theat. theat. theat. theat. theat. theat. thee. thee. thee. th reason, going, is that the guy? Yeah, and he's dancing at the Coppawk. You, you know, you talk a lot about your thoughts about this gentleman and whether you wanted to confront him. There's actually a really wonderful section of it, almost like a Socratic litigation that you do

in four parts. Yeah, I make him up. But you don't make him defenseless. No. The litigation that you and the dialogue that you have with him is challenging. Yeah. Well, I thought you, you know, you've got to give the enemy an even break. If you're going to have a serious conversation, then it can't just be me yelling at him, telling him what a bad person is is is is is is is is is is is... Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. th. thi thi is thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. you, you the the. the. the. the. that that that that that that that that that that that that elling him what a bad person he is, which I think.

Yes. But he wasn't, it makes you wonder about, you know, you spent since 1989 this fatwa is put upon you and it's these fundamentalists and these are religious extremists who have decided they're going to punish you for whatever their reasoning was. You write though that this gentleman is sort of a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of that. He's 24, he wasn't even born when this thing happened. And he, by his own account, had read nothing I'd written. And yet he was willing to commit murder. I mean, that's stupid. Yes. But it's...

I wonder if you think of it, does it strike you as a change in fundamentalism? You know, you say he was radicalized by Iman YouTubey. Yeah. That he watched YouTube videos. And do you think this attack had more to do with, like John Lennon's attack or with a religious attack? No, I think in some ways it's a very American attack. Right. He spent four years in a basement playing video games and watching videos. And it kind of messed with his head.

And also, you know, I mean, he's born in Braiden, New Jersey. Slow down. I think I know where this is going. Well, then, you know, you're ahead of me. But, you know, we live in America where people kill each other every five minutes. Right. And I think maybe in his New Jersey brain. Yes. That is how we describe it as well, by the way.

He's got that New Jersey brain. Exactly. Do you think that there is a shift? You know, we think of fundamentalism as primarily a religious artifact. Have the algorithms made fundamentalism something different from that? I think maybe they have. I mean, I'm too old to know really, because I don't, algorithms don't know what to do with me. Right. Give them a chance. No, I do. But they don't know what to do. So I'm not algorithmically influenced, but people are.

People are all the time. And yeah, I mean, I think he was... Something happened in him, which made it possible for him to decide to murder a total stranger. Right. And that has to be brainwashing of some kind. Right. Whatever you want to call it, but I call it brainwashing. Yeah, as I read the story, I started thinking, you know, we're so used to this idea of violence

with a cause, this idea that these, you know, there is something deep inside them that can almost be noble or understandable. This is not that. It struck me more as more in common with the school shootings we see here or the other things that you were just this thing he saw. And you know what's so strange about it is, first of all, he must have known that he was messing up his own life as well. Right.

Not just mine. At 24. And you know the last thing he did before he got on the bus from Fairview, New Jersey to Chautauqua, the last thing he did, he canceled his gym membership. What? Because he knew the prison had weights? He wasn't coming back and why should he keep his standing order going? Wow. So he's going through it and going like, I don't need serious radio anymore. I don't...

So this... Was he suicidal or was he... I don't know. I mean, maybe we'll find out if whenever, if this trial happens, we might find out more about him. Do you dread something like that? Is that something that still visits you? No. I mean, I think, you know, if I, I, I mean, if they need me to testify, I'll go testify. And I'll be in the courtroom with them, but my view is he should be scared about being in the courtroom with me. Absolutely. Absolutely. Do you wonder sometimes, you know, and this is not not to get, but you and I are both getting the the the the the the th in thin getting thin getting to get getting to get getting to get getting the to get getting to get getting the to get getting to get getting to get getting the to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get, and this is not not to get, but you and I are both getting older and you write a lot in the book about, Speak for yourself, come to.

Fred, Saddle down. I was just on jury duty by the way. I don't know if you saw a picture of my doppelganger. But there is, there's mortality, you write about Martin Amos and Paul Ops. And people that you've lost, even th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, not thi, thi, thi, thi, not th thi, not thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi, thi, th you've lost, even during the writing of this book, lost to esophagial cancer. You had a cancer scare in the middle of rehabilitation. Yeah, in the middle of all this repair work, suddenly, apparently I might have prostate cancer. I thought that's not fair. No. Well, you're right. He writes, he goes to the doctor. He goes to the doctor. Well, you, apparently I might have prostate cancer. I thought that's not fair. No. Well, you're right. He writes, he goes to the doctor. Well, you can tell. I mean, I went to the doctor and they, examining your prostate is not fun. Again, speak for yourself.

It's, it's, it depends on if you have a Jersey brain. Anyway, the first examination, they thought they found a bump on the prostate. And then I had to have an MRI scan. And the MRI scan, you know, it grades from one to five and five is really bad. And I came out as four. And it said cancer probable. And then it turned out that it was not probable that it was had this bump and had been caused by some other infection. And and a medicine that they had actually given you. Yeah exactly. And so then a

second doctor, the first doctor's boss, also examined my prostate, more thoroughly. They lined up down the hallway? What are we doing here? No, this was very thorough. And also he was an Indian doctor and he was a fan of mine too. He was like to expect. Nothing more uncomfortable than that. Extra thorough. Yes. And he said, no, I think this might be caused by this other infection and so they had to go back and have another MRI scan and it said, one to five, one, no cancer.

So I had cancer for two months and then I didn't. It's so incredible because you face this, as you write in the book, this 27 seconds. It was just 27 seconds. And yet, do you think about and pardon the question but do you think does it matter how you die as you watched your friends and you thought about yeah your fate and your brush with mortality and then to have this cancer scare did it make you think it mattered how you die I prefer not to I've got some bad news. Exactly it. I prefer not to. I've got some bad news.

Exactly. It's coming for all of us. Bad news for all of us. Yes. But I mean, I don't know. My wife Eliza and I have decided we're planning our 100th birthday party by 100th birthday, and I think it has to be a dance party. Yes. Just your feet.

Just your feet though. So we try to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide to decide the to decide the though, not the whole body. So we try to decide who should DJ. I'll pick somebody. But it strikes me because you, whether you've wanted this mantle or not, and I'm assuming you don't, you represent something. You represent a courage and a freedom of artistic expression, of the importance of artistic expression, and of the danger that artistic expression often visits upon the people who do it. It's a noble shield to carry, but not an easy one, I don't imagine.

Not an easy one, and in a way there's bits of me that would prefer to be well known for being, you know, good writer. Well, I have to tell you. I'm pretty sure that's a the thi the the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the the theat theat that I I'm their their theat that I'm that I'm that I'm that's their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi thi thi thi thr-a. I'm thr-a. I'm thr-a. I'm theateateateateateatr-a. I theateateateatr-a. I thi. I'm their their their of me that would prefer to be well known for being, you know, a good writer. Well, I have to tell you, I'm pretty sure that's in there too. Is that in there? Yeah. But, you know, it used to be when I started out as a writer, when people would write about my books, they would mention that they were funny and then after the attack on the satanic verses everybody stopped saying I was funny. Really? And it's because that book is

satirical. Yeah and it's it's and people who read it I get two reactions to read it now. One is where's the dirty bit? Because we can't find it. And the second is who knew it was funny? And I say people who the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I th. I th. I the the the th. I the th. I the th. I the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their their their. I their. I their. I ta. I ta. I ta. I te. I te. I te. I te. te. te. te. te. I te. I te. I their.? Because we can't find it. And the second is, who knew it was funny? And I say, people who read it, funny. But it's, you know, with that on you, do you feel there's an idea that you have to wear that heroism? I don't know about the heroism, but I think I have to be part of the fight. Right. I mean, there is a fight about that that that thiiiiiiiiiiiii thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi is a fight thi is a fight thi is a fight thi is a fight thi is a thi is a thi is a thi is a that thi is a that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that that that that that is who that is who that is who that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thi thi thi, thi, thi thi, thi thi thi thi thi. their their thi. thi. their thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that's that that that that don't know about the heroism, but I think I have to be part of the fight. Right. I mean, I mean, there is a fight about free expression in America too at the moment. And I'm, I feel like I'm in that fight. I have a dog in that fight.

What, what do you think that how the nature of fundamentalism has changed and how that affects artistic expression. Like even now when we see all the protests, you know, up at Columbia University, some students protest as others think that's going too far and they're threatening people and we're crossing all those difficult lines. You spoke at the Penn Banquet, yes? Yeah, last year. Which is a consortium of writers and poets and a lot of people, truly defenders of free speech. Yeah. I just got a text today. They've canceled. They've canceled

a prize giving because they're people attacking them for not being sufficiently anti-Israeli or pro-Palestinian or something. I mean, everybody's so angry right now. That nobody can listen or talk to anybody else so people have shouted each other. Listen, there was a critic and this is going to sound like a joke, a critic of Taylor Swift's new music album, the Torture Post Society, they had to remove the critic's name from the critique because of death threats. Because he didn't like the record? I the the the the the the the the the the the the the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of to toe of their their the of toe of toe of the of the coute of the coute of the cout the of the cout the of the cout the cout the cout the cout the cout the cout the coute of the c. Listen the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of the of theateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateate.eateate. Soeateateateateateateate. Soeeateeeeeee. thes. Because he didn't like the record? I didn't read it. Because I love the record. Yeah. Of course I don't want to hear any negativity. No, but so do I jump. But it's it speaks to in 1989 there was an Ayatollah and a fatwa and a group of religious muckety mucks who

delivered the law from high above and now it's we're all fundamentalists. Everybody's an expert, everybody's got an opinion and a hostility and hostility. The level of anger is crazy right now. Do you think of you know you have a dog in the fight in that creative. How do we, and I think about this a, you have a dog in the fight in that creative? How do we, and I think about this a lot, how do we manage that? And is that just a function of the algorithm? It might be, I think to an extent it is. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, frankly, I'm glad you asked me because I'm the answer,

I'm the answer, have the But you are thoughtful enough and you've been through it enough that I know you have an opinion. Yeah, I mean I just think people have to draw, stop having such thin skins. You know, at the moment we're all very easily offended. And what's more is we also believe that being offended is a sufficient reason for attacking something. Right. But actually everything offends somebody. Always. I mean occasionally you. What? How dare you sir? I am offended. You see and then if you go down that road then we can't talk to each other anymore. Right. But haven't groups always had a way of policing language or behavior?

I think I'm trying to think, has my perspective changed on it or has the dynamic changed? I think what's happened is the temperature has got arisen. I mean, yes, of course, people have always disagreed and people have always said, you can't say that, you've got to say this. That's not new. What's new is the volume and the heat. And so what do we do about taking down the volume and taking down the heat? That's the question.

And again, not to make you the avatar of this, but this is coming from a man who, because of threats from fundamentalists, had to basically alter your entire life. Well, it did certainly have an impact, yeah. I mean, what is sad is that I'd actually got my life back, really. I mean, I've been living in New York City for getting on for 25 years. Right. Well, you had made a decision, I'm going to come out of this and make myself available. And for 23 years, it was. Right. You know, I mean I was doing everything that writers do. Book tours, readings, lectures, you know. Oh I know I'm a writer. Don't stop. I've been there with the coffee clotches. Yeah. And Oprah. Yeah. Well, I haven't been with Oprah. None of us have. But anyway, so it was a shock when this thing out of a quarter of a century ago, more

than that, 30 years ago, sort of came out of a crowd at me. You know, it was, I really was very surprised. Do you find yourself now freed of that fear or is there still that PTSD? Like what, where's your, what does that do to you? Well I mean it doesn't, you know, nothing good. But it's now been what 20 months or something. I think I'm pretty much back to myself at this point. Do you feel like you're in that writing rhythm again? Has your mind started to dream again? I just finished this, you know. And by the way let me tell you something, and I, and we don't

have people on where I don't either, you know, read it or take a look. It's such a beautiful and incredibly interesting and revelatory book. I really thank you for writing it because you had to endure something awful, but your insight into that experience is really a remarkable gift to give to other people. And I really do appreciate it. I just got funny bits. A couple of funny bits, yeah. For a writer. Not for a comic, for a writer.

But it really is a fantastic piece of work and I thank you for doing it. The book is called Knife. It is available as we speak. Salmon Rush to you. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. John Stewart here. Unbelievably exciting news.

My new podcast, The Weekly Show. We're going to be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast.