The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Defining Blackness: How Systemic Racism Divides Black Communities - Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: August 23, 2022

From the One Drop Rule to low essence media stereotypes, America continues to attempt to fit Blackness into a box. This has led to Black folks policing their own Blackness and divisions based on colorism and ethnic backgrounds. Daily Show writer Ashton Womack, and Yaba Blay, author of the book One Drop: Shifting the Lens on Race, join Host Roy Wood Jr. to attempt to define Blackness as an ideology and open up about moments when they didn’t feel “Black enough.” More Beyond the Scenes: http://podcasts.iheartradio.com/5VF7TkWF?sid=soc See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, it's Roywood Jr. Up next is a special presentation of the original Daily Show podcast Beyond the Scenes, hosted by yours truly. In this podcast, we take you further into topics and segments covered on the daily show, and we talk with producers from the show, writers, correspondence, and expert guests who can give us a little bit more insight and context on the topics at hand. Have a listen.

I know you're going to like it. Hey, what's up? Welcome to Beyond The Seeves. Hey, what's up? Welcome to Beyond the Seeves. The Daily Show, the Daily Show, the Daily Show is your Uber. The's that thel a little water bottle you get for free during the ride. that, you, you, you, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the th, th, the ride, th, the ride, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, have, I I I th, I I, I th, I I th, I th, I I I th, I I th, I I th, I I I, I th. I th. I, I, I, I, I, th. I, th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thi. thi. thi. thin, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. I thi. I the show. If the Daily Show is your Uber, this is that tiny little water bottle you get for free during the ride.

You know how drivers have a little peppermint and stuff, the little free extra stuff that's right there. And I'm the relentless, chaty driver. Okay, that's maybe not the best analogy, but you get what I'm trying to say to you to you to you to you to you cancel this ride. Today, we're discussing a topic that Trevor covered back in 2020 when Kamala Harris became the first ever black woman to be nominated for vice president. Now, Fox News journalists didn't skip a beat to claim she wasn't black enough. The segment illustrates how white people have tried to define blackness for centuries.

Road to clip. What's especially ironic about these people trying to define blackness for centuries. Road to clip. What's especially ironic about these people trying to exclude Kamala from blackness is that it's the reverse of what white America did for centuries, defining as many people as black as possible, whether they wanted it or not. Color and who qualifies as black, who qualifies as white, has historically been policed not by those who were the targets of oppression, but by those who set up the system of oppression. In America, blackness was defined by that auction block.

You were black if you could be put on that auction block and sold as property. Following the abolition of slavery, some Americans feared of rise in interracial relationships. So states began passing laws that, that any child with even one drop of Negro blood would be classified as Negro and denied the rights of white people. This became known as the one drop rule. The one drop rule was an attempt to save the so-called purity of the white race. By 1925, nearly every state had a form of the one drop rule on their books. All you need is one person, five generations thir thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-a thuuuu thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thro, thro, tho, th, thro, thro, th, th, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thr-a, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thr-a, thr-a, thr-c, thr-c, thr-a, thr-a, throee, their, their throe throe throoe throoe throooe, thro the one-drop rule on their books.

All you need is one person, five generations back, who is black, and that is enough to make you black. Seriously? One black person in your family has the power to make you black. But all the white people in your family can't make you white? If anything, I feel like this was also racist to white people. I mean, imagine that. They were basically saying 10 white sperm is not as powerful as one black sperm. That is an insult to white sperm, and I'm offended on behalf of all my white brothers and sisters. Today I'm joined by Emmy-nominated Daily Showwriter, Aston Womack and author of the book,

One Drop, Shifting the Lens on Race. Dr. Yava Blay, they're going to both help us answer the question, can you define blackness? Ashton, how are you doing today, brother? I'm good, brother. Always a pleasure being with you, man. Dr. Blay, thank you for gracing us with all of them wonderful books in the background. The people listening can't see it, but you got them books and I know you read

them books because they ain't color coded. Of course, of course, that's kind of like the given background for academic, but you got to show you books. Yeah, but I don't respect people who color code that books. That just mean you put them books up there. Yeah, two of them might be a phone book, you know, but that's legit books up there. So let's get writing to it. White people have used many tactics to keep black people in line. We saw that with the history of the one. Drop rule and we see it in policing today. How have methods that white people have used to police and categorize us affected the way we operate within this society? Ashton, I'll start with you. In many, many ways it's affected us. I mean, first off, we don't even get to control our image in the media. We're finally, us, this existed is us taking reins of our media image.

But before I was white people who controlled our images, so they, it was what we would look at. We're like, oh, is that us? And that created, that creates the image the image the image the image the image the image the image the image the image the image the image th th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's thii. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's affected thi, it's affected thi, it's affected thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's affected. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th at we're like oh is that us and that created that creates an image of yourself they they were creating the images of ourself that we ingested and then we in turn emulated those images the best example I can use for that is like I remember I went to schools all over across America I went to bad schools I went to the bad schools in bad in bad neighborhoods and ghetto neighborhoods or whatever you want to call it.. the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I the the the thi thi theateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateateate. that's that's that's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the is the is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theeeeeeeeeea theeeeeeeeea thea thea thea thea th bad schools, I went to good schools. I went to the bad schools in bad neighborhoods, in ghetto neighborhoods, whatever you want to call it. Kids, they just acted like how they were. They acted how they work. But then when I went to like the middle class schools with the middle class black kids, instead of acting like their, the class they come from, the class they they today, they just just just just just just just just just their, liked...... their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they're just, their, their, they're just, they're just acted, they're just acted like, they're just acted like, they're just, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're just, they're just, they're just, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the social class they come from, they just emulated the blackness that they saw on TV, so they'd be like well off, but they're acting superhood or acting ways that images that were given to them on the television.

And that wasn't, I feel like that was one of the ways that, how whiteness affects our own image of ourselves. Them putting out imagery that we then emulate and even if it's not true to yourself. And see I'm itching over here so let me jump in real quick. Oh jump, job. Come on Dr. Blake. It's the word acting so I feel like we're going to cover a lot but like this whole conversation there's so many things we're going to cover hopefully there's the history of how race is defined. It's the problematics even of projecting race race race race race race race, the the the the the the the the the tha, tha, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thi. thean, thi as an identity to an entire group of people and expecting us to act a uniform way.

But even that question of, you know, as you said, acting their class, I think, something to the extent that you said, right? And so for me, that's an immediate, well, what's that mean? For black people, especially, what does it mean to act hood versus act middle class versus act, act, uppity, and to to to to they, they, the mean, right? For black people especially. What does it mean to act hood versus act middle class versus act uppity versus act buggie like? All of those categories weren't necessarily created by us to begin with. So then when you have the intersection of race and class, these are different things happening, right? Some could argue that whatever we define as hood is black culture regardless of where you fall on an economic hierarchy.

Like, you like potato salad at the cookout. I don't care how much money you make, right? And you don't eat everybody's potato salad. You know to speak to black people when you walk into a room. It doesn't matter what, you know, how much money you make or what college you went to. There's certain cultural moors that we all, I think, globally, right, agreed to. And so I think what ends up happening is the intersection of race and economic status and all the intersectional axes of our identity has us confused and has us even having these

conversations, right? Okay, so then on the other end of the stick, you know, I was a child that was raised by two college educators between my two parents, there were five college degrees in the home, so I wasn't allowed to go, uh, used to could, so there was always a stress on verbiage and vernacular. But then the moment I came from the white middle school back to the black middle school in seven grade, you talk like white folk. Why you talking all proper? How much have we been bamboozled ourselves into restricting what we even know blackness to be because it is defined by white to say white people I'm talking the media I'm talking like even something as simple as who they choose to interview for the I wouldn't I seen what happened they were over there and the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thing and I the thing I the the thing I the the thing I the thing I the the th I th and I'm I'm th I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm I'm I'm thin. I'm th. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm you you th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm th. I'm thing. I'm th. I'm th. I'm things. I'm th. I'm thin. I'm t. I'm toling. I'm talking. I'm talking. I'm talking. I'm toling. I'm toling. I'm toling. I'm toling. I'm tol who they choose to interview for the

I would I seen what happened they were over there and then the thing in the car flipped up like how much does media play a role in influencing how black people define blackness I mean I would open our arms wider and say you know I talk about white people you talk about white supremacist ideology right you're talking about historical way ofist ideology, right? You're talking about historical way of thinking about ourselves that is very much informed by the power and privilege that has been, I was going to say bestowed, but I really want to say taken by white folks, right? So they've come to define what white is, what good is, what black is, what bad is,

what ghetto is, what they've come to give us all of these categories of behavior and so us want to be free, right, wanting to have access to all of the better places, like, and I'm all over the place but stay with me. No, no, no, keep going. I am very black, capital B in a lot of ways, politically, for my political views on the world we live in, and especially the country that we live in. And so in my family, folks might call me, you know, the radical one, right? And so let's just say my community of folks, my friends, we all tend to have similar kind of ideas and see ourselves connected similarly, particularly in our relationship to this country. But one thing that fascinates me is for all my radical, natural-haired, fist-bumping folk, how many of us, and by us I mean them, send their children to predominantly white schools?

And so on the weekends you might be with auntie and uncle, and we talk about RBG, and, you know, we talk about all manner of things and trying to situ you in your blackness, but on a day to day, day, you are one of th, you th, th, th, to to th, to to th, to th, to to th, th, th, th, to th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, the, thi, tho, tho, tho, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, thi...... And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, to, to, to, to, toe, toe, toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. And, toe. And, toe. And, the. And, the. And, the. tos and trying to situate you in your blackness, but on a day to day, you are one of three, one of ten, one of however in the school because your parents, even your radical black parents believe that in order for you to get a good education, I can't send you to Philadelphia public schools. I got to send you to Germantown Friends, or I got to pay tuition at another space, and I hopefully will supplement your blackness, and I th But we, and you know, in fairness, it is a fact that our public school systems are not equally yoked, right? So then what do you do as a black parent? If you want your child to be, quote unquote, well educated or to have the opportunity to go on to college or higher ed,

you want them to be grounded as best as possible? And so we're constantly putting these spaces of, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the spaces, the spaces, the spaces, the spaces, the spaces, the spaces, the spaces, toe, toe, toe, toe, to be. toe, and their. to be. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, and their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and their......... to. to. to. to. the, the, the, and, the, and the the the the the the the the the the toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. to be grounded as best as possible. And so we're constantly putting these spaces of like, how do we make these decisions? And some of us end up feeling like we quote unquote have sold out, right? In order to take advantage of the quote unquote best opportunities, if that makes sense. This is why I'm gonna send my kid to Dr. Umar school. Don't, okay. That's a whole separate conversation you have to explain., how, how, how, how, how, how, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, how, how, how, how, how, how, how to to to to to to to to to they they they to they they their their their their their their, how their, how their, how their, how they, how they, how they, how they, how they, how they, how they, how they, how their, how their their their their their their their their their their, how their, how their their their, how th the, the, the. We the-a, the-a. We the-a. Wea, the-a. Wea, the-a, the. Wea, the. We're the. How, okay. And solve all those problems right there. That's a whole separate conversation. Don't wake it like, don't wake it up.

Dr. Umar here is. Uh, but Dr. Blay, when we see people like now VP Kamala Harris and former president, Barack Obama, they run for office, they win and it's, you know, they win some of the highest receipts in the country. They always get a little extra pressure put on their shoulders from the black community. They always have to carry the burden of hope, you know, that we hope that this means our issues are finally be taking care. One of us is in there.

One of us is it finally. But Dr. Blay, why is it harmful for people to assume that every black person that makes it to power is a political seat for all black people? Or do you even think that's harmful? I would just say that all the views expressed here are my own and I know that the blacks might not agree. Oh come on with it. Clock in now. You didn You didn't already shoot the table with white supremacy. Come on, now, clock in. It's hard because we have to also understand the danger of talking about the black

community. All skin folk and can folk, right? So for me, the fact that no judgment, love them. The fact that Barack Obama and Kamla Harris aspire to be in those positions says something to me about their relationship to a white supremacist ideology. That might not be fair, but the fact that you want to be in power of this country. The fact that you want us to pledge allegiance to this flag, the fact that you want to uphold the articles in this constitution, we're not the same, right? Now in fairness, should we have black folks in these

positions? Sure, but we shouldn't we, and by, I mean, us looking through the screens, we should not assume that that means that they'll now be able to bring us with them because they're also, let me use your friend Clarence Thomas as an example. In my opinion, part of the ways in which he's been able to stay in the position and have the positions that he's had, it's almost like he's had to perform more disdain for black people to somehow prove to white folks that he's like them. Right? So just because you're in a position the position the positionthat I'm bringing y'all with us, I'm going to be bringing our, whoever our is, right, our needs to the table. Sometimes I think they even have to perform a particular level of anti-blackness just though white folks will trust them. I can't remember who said the quote, but I remember it kind of shift gave me perspective, not in a good way,

just gave me more perspective, of why I kept asking, Barack don't do nothing. What's the, my brother's keeper program? You know, those programs, the, the, the things we did get, when I look at it as a whole, I was like, that's not a lot for, you know, the first president, that's kind of nothing. But that's, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what?? What? What? What? What? What? What? What's, what? What's, what? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? What? the, what? the, what? the. the, what? the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the, don't want to attribute the wrong quote, but it was basically, Barack Obama is not the president of black America, Barack Obama is the president of America. And America is, you know, it's a white country guys. And so you gotta, it's the same when we see like, Democrats, and we think like, you're a democrat, but then they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they.., but they., but they., but they. they. thobar, thrown. thrown. thrown, thrown, throw, throw, I is the president is the president is tho, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thobo, is thobo, is the president is the president is the president is the president, Barack. the president, the president, the president, the president is is the president is the president is the president is the president is the president is the president is the president is the president, is the president, is the president, is the president, is the president, the the the the the the the the thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. throe. throe. thro. thro. thro. thro. thro. thr. thr. thr. I is thrtowards the center. You gotta shift towards the right to get that, to even be president, you gotta appeal to some white people, white people. And again, I want to just, I'm gonna reiterate this throughout our conversation, because I don't want us to focus on people

as much as I want us to remember ideology. As uncomfortable as it might say, be to say the words out of your mouth, we are talking about white supremacist ideology. This is not about white people because you said America's a white country is going to be somebody in the comments that says, well, it's this percentage of this and this percentage of that and people of color. Okay, fine. I'm not talking about the color of the people physically. How are we thinking? What is that constitution built upon? How do we think about those quote unquote people of color? The fact that we even have to have the language, people of color, normalizes and centers whiteness.

The fact that we have diversity, equity, and inclusion leaves whiteness over here. We're gonna national geographic, look at all y'all, other people. Whiteness is the the center and everything else has to make do. Is your perspective rooted in the belief that this is a system that cannot be fixed or infiltrated or in some degree bit by bit repaired? Is the system in which this white supremacist system and under which we all agree we exist under as black people, is it irreparable? And if not, how do you fix it from the political side using their rules? Thank you for saying that.

It makes me uncomfortable. I always cringe when I have to answer that question, because I want to be able to say, yes, let's burn it down, we can fix it, right? I don't want to feel as a, it's a defeating and deflating experience, you know, the more we are faced with with particular realities every single day, the ways in which white folks get off the hook, you know, it can be defeating and deflating. Howsoever I do want to believe, and I do believe, bit by bit, chip by chip, every generation, we are all making a difference, right?

But we have to temper our expectations. Are we going to fix it and dismantle white supremacy in our lifetime? Likely not. It doesn't mean we don't stop chipping away at it. Dr. Blake, respectfully, I just think you're being very pessimistic. We passed body camera laws and granted the cops haven't turn them on yet but eventually they'll turn them on. So in the meantime we record the police and I know they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they they they're they're they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're to their to to their their their me their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their to to to to to to to to to to to to'll turn them on. So in the meantime, we record the police, and I know they pass and lost out and make it illegal to record the police and they got gerrymandering law. Damn, I think she's right. She might be right, bro. When you can get away with get away with storm in the Capitol and we come to find out who the leaders are and they'll be free,

and you can get away with shooting one one black. the black the black one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black one black black one black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black.. the the the their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. times? Yes. Oh, and it doesn't even get, I can tell just a personal anecdotal story that just happened on July 4th at the, in New York, going to see fireworks and my mom and sister. It's all these beautiful people of color. July 4th, American Independence Day, there's literally fireworks in the air blowing up. And this lady is, she looks like Clarence Thomas's wife. th. th. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. th. I. th. I. I. th. I. th. I. I. I. th. I. th. th. I. th. I's, th. I's, th. I's, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th. I'm, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th, th, th, th. I, th.. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. the's wife literally just look like Clarence Thomas's wife. She's getting kicked out, she's getting escorted out by the cops because she's like

calling people slurr- she did not like seeing all this beautiful, it was beautiful, it was all kinds of diverse people out there celebrating America, you know as hard as that is, you know I love, I love everybody but you know as a person of color minority in this country, you know you're like, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th.. th, th... th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiii. thiiiiiii. thiiiii. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, I love everybody. But you know, as a person of color minority in this country, you know, you're like, all all, all right, I'm gonna do it. And so when she saw all these beautiful people celebrating, look in different shades, she lost her stuff, started calling everybody slurs. And in Fourth of July, this, this fourth of July, with fireworks, in the air, I had a white woman, I had a white woman, and it felt like, and it, and a white woman, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it was, and it was, th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when the w.......... And, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they the the the the oned it. There were fireworks in the air. It was like, yeah, black. And what happened was there was a black cop right next to it and the whole crowd was like, oh, oh, this is how, this is how nothing, it feels like nothing can be done by racism.

The black cop, when they go, oh, she called him a n-word.the black cop goes who she called it in word I know she ain't called me in word and he goes no no she called him and he was like oh cool and then oh he got to keep his job though don't he because he's he's protecting this country he got to go to the locker room with them cops he got a ride I feel, and this one, this is the frustration, right? But also, I know you're gonna be tired of talking around me, asking, I'm coming back to language, because again, it connects to white supremacist ideology. I refuse to call myself a minority.

I don't care what's your statistic show. What you say out of your mouth impacts how you feel in your body and vice versa, right? And so if you see yourself as a minority, you might have your head down acting like a minority in this country. You might concede that this is y'all's country. And that is a complete revisionist idea of how things have gone down. You know, language, people of color, I get it. This is what I'm saying, it's no judgment, for real, for real. But I'm also here to ask us to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi....., toeei.. toean, toean, toean, toean, toean, thi... thi. thi. thrying. But I'm also here to ask us to think critically about what we say and how we do things. For black folks, our particular

relationship to this country, we can't afford to be piled in with people of color. We need our own black folks. Okay, so that point of not being piled in with people of color and black people needing to be their own separate operated entity. How much pressure do you think is th th th say th say th say th say th say th say th say th say th say th say th say th say th say th say thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to say to say to say to say thi thi thi thi thi thi the the the the th the th th the th th the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to say to say to say to say to say to say to to to to to to thean. to thi to thi thi. thi. thi. thi. people needing to be their own separate operated entity. How much pressure do you think is put on black people that are in positions of political power to portray blackness to the public while remaining, you know, on the level with the white politicians that are in office who they got to make the deals with, much like that black cop where, all right, you need the trust make the deals with, much like that black cop, where, all right, you need the trust of the black community,

you want the love of the black community, so you gotta make sure that you do it. You gotta show up and eat the chicken. You gotta come to Essence Fest and wave, to the people. But I hosted Essence Fest tha thau- not just at the national level, but at the state and Senate level who was coming and going, hey y'all, I got y'all back, but also I got a gold deal, because you know, you look at Stacey Abrams is a great example. It ain't black people alone who put her in office, but it is black people who put her in

office, if you get what I'm saying? So, how much pressure is on the backs of those politicians? And is that a fair p p p their tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha thia thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I thi, I'm thiolioliolioliolk, I'm to go to go to go, I to go, I to go, I to go, I to go, I to go, I to to to to to to thi, I thi, I thi, I I thi, I I I I th... thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I'm thi, I'm thi, I'm not to to to to tooananananan, tooan, tooan, tooan, tooan, tooan, tooan, I'm too. to to to to to the backs of those politicians? And is that a fair pressure for the black community to put at their feet? It's an enormous amount. I can't even imagine the amount of pressure. Is it fair? Maybe not. But I think what black folks are responding to is y'all come to the church, y'all come

to the sorority and fraternity meetings, y'all come to the church, y'all come to the sorority and fraternity meetings, y'all come to homecoming, y'all come when y'all are campaigning, and you are man, you are woman, you're gonna do, you're gonna, all right, cool, we're gonna rally up like how we do, we're gonna organize like how we do, we're gonna organize like how we do, we're gonna vote for you sister. Power to the polls let's go. Right? We gonna get all our people and never voted before come on out we got a one of us. We got on the bus we driving we don't care that they gerrymanded half of the state and it's only one polling station in the next 200 miles. No we're gonna get you there. We can't drink no water at the entire time we're standing in line, but we're going to be there to vote, right? I remember the night President Obama was elected in and it was it felt like it was late.

We were out at a bar. I mean people were crying. People were overwhelmed. I felt like it was an out of body experience the next day. At the time I was working at a predominantly white institution. White folks didn't know how they behave. They didn't know how they should be responding. Some of them overdid it. Some of them felt like they were in morning and black folks are just like don't talk to me today because we want. It felt like OJ verdict day. It was really... No, I remember. Absolutely, right. so I think coming back to that question that question that question that question that question that question that question that question that question that question that question that question that question of is it fair? I think black folks are trying to cash in on the work that we did to get you in office. Now you in office and all of a sudden we got to understand all these things.

Be honest when your campaign. Let us know that you can only do so much because at the end of the day it's still their house but you're going to do what Knowing good and well, you can't do it by yourself. It's this country. After the break, Dr. Blay and Ashton, I want to get into how we as a community sometimes like try to police each other's blackness and see what are the things that led us to this place, the the causes that have led to this effect. Is that effect with an E or a I don't, I don't, I, I, I, I, I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th, th, th, I th, I, I, I th, I th, I th, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, try, try, try, try, to to to try,'s talking. I'm talking. You can't tell. It's beyond the scenes. We'll be right back Dr. Blay. How can I, how can I, what's the safest way to enter this part of the conversation? How do we as a community, I don't like blackness being policed. All right? I'm gonna just start right there. If I'm just using my own personal experiences, okay? I'm a black kid that loves baseball. I was in chess club, but I also played at the park.

Shout out to Powderly Park and the west side of Birmingham with gangster disciples and vice lords. So I grew up seeing a spectrum. I know how to swim. So there are all these things that I saw growing up that that to me me me me me me., I were, I was, the, the, the, the, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, thi, the, tho, tho, th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, I, I, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I, I, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, tho, the, the thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, thooooooooooooo, that, that, that, that, the that that I saw growing up that to me were just black people doing a thing. So I never saw something as being a black or white thing until I went to visit relatives in more rural parts of Mississippi. And now you're using in big words, you think you know everything. Like in what ways do we divide ourselves as a people and does that self-policing of our own blackness, is that

a hindrance or does that help us define ourselves so that we don't drift into losing our sense of culture? Sure. My first response is going to, it feels like a hindrance, right, in the ways that you explained it because we are holding on to very narrow ideas of what blackness is, and I think we have to take it back historically. I feel like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like, as that, as that, as that, as that, that, that, that, that, that, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, does, that, that, does, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that, that, that, that, that, that's that ways that you explained it because we are holding on to very narrow ideas of what blackness is and I think we have to take it back historically. I feel like as black folks, and again I'm using B, capital B, black, there's some folks that are still lowercase B. Now when I say capital B black, I'm recognized as blackness

as a larger umbrella identity under which every one of African descent falls, right? So I'm first generation Ghanaian, born in New Orleans. My folks in Ghana might not identify as black because they've never had to, right? It's not until you are forced to be in mixed company that you are now black or white or Asian or Latino, these conglomerate types of identities. But when you're in Ghana, you're a Khan, you're you know all these other ethnic groups. The blackness happens when you leave that space and now you're in company with other people, right? That being said, how could we, if we talk about

this large umbrella of blackness, right, holding people of African descent all over the world, we couldn't even begin to say that's black behavior, that's not. I mean, well, they're also, we wash our legs, I can tell you that. We all use soap and wash cloths or some other accoutrement to scrub skin. We do, we do that, you know what I mean? We got a hot sauce. There th. There th. There th. There th. There th. There th. There th. There th. There th. There th. There are th. There are th. There are th. There are th. There are th. There are th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. We're th. th. th. th. We are, we are th. We're th. We're th. We're th. We're th. We're th. We're th. We're th. We're, we're, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thee. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. the. the. the. the. to scrub skin. We do that. You know what I mean? We got a hot sauce. There's certain things that we do all over the world, but playing chess and playing baseball and those things, that's a part of being a black American, I would say. But I think what happens, particularly when we start doing that north-south divide, because I grew up in the south and then moved up north. And I think that is really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really that is really that is really that is like that is like that is like, that is like that that that that that that that that th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like thi th. thi thi th. th. th. th. th. th. thi the South and then moved up north and I think that is really That feels like a historical kind of We's free up here and y'all enslaved down there on both ends in terms of how we think of ourselves right and so y'all up it up there y'all speak different. Y'all got different accents. Y'all do things differently in the, we're looking at them as if they're backwards, you know, or closer to the cotton fields.

You know, side note, it might not make it in, everybody loves Pea Valley. I just got on the Pea Valley. P. Valley, where I'm into it now second season, but the first scene of this show starts with a trigger for me because it was scenes of a hurricane, assumedly Katrina, right? So I was already annoyed, but then as I continue to watch the show, I'm like, y'all got every southern accent in this show. You know the difference between a New Orleans accent and a Houston Texas accent, and an Alabama accent, and an Atlanta accent, y'all got, so it's almost like, this would have felt like I didn't the didn't do my research on the show. It almost

felt like somebody said we got to do the South, y'all go at it. Because you don't respect the space culturally enough to know that there are distinctions. These are cultural distinction. They say Maine, right? New Orleans we say Boutendna. Who says Finnah? Certain people say Finnah. I don't say Fendna, right? These are, and I think because it is aligned with blackness, all of us negate it. It's not that important. It's crucial if we really respect blackness as a culture. It's crucial that some people put sugar and spaghetti, it's some people mix the spaghetti all together. Like black spaghetti is a thing. crucial. That some people put sugar and spaghetti, is some people mix the spaghetti all together. Like black spaghetti is a thing, right? Italians don't make spaghetti like how we make spaghetti.

I just don't put fish with theirs either. Listen, I don't, look, where your people from? You don't eat fish with spaghetti. I got meatballs in mine. Is that wrong? But it's just to say for me and this is coming. I'm somebody, My work is on blackness. My PhD thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi s s s s s s s s s. thi sp. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I thi. I thi. I to. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I th. for me, and this is kind of, I'm somebody, my work is on blackness, my PhD is in black studies, right? This is my joy and I get really excited about seeing how we're connected all over the world. And so for me, these cultural things that we don't give credit to and we don't see the power in, that saddens me, because we don't see the power in our own culture. We've allowed ourselves to believe all that this white supremacist ideology has projected onto us that we have no culture. Yet and still historically, y'all went around the world stealing everybody's culture.

Who didn't have culture? Well, Dr. Can I actually, actually, about like, I remember the first question I had, or point I had was about, I made it class issue saying poor people act like this, middle class, which I was just poorly phrased. The way you described is like blackness can be, there's a whole spectrum of blackness, which is what I was, which is how I was trying to describe it using, like you said, language is important.

And but that, my question is, do you think the media and media in general shows the lowest essence of blackness and then people, no matter where you are amongst that spectrum, because that's the main, that's what we emulate. That's what we copy. And to be clear, when we think about it from a production standpoint, creative standpoint, it would be so easy to say, look at how white people people, people on TV. A lot of times that's us folk. A lot of times there's a black directors and producers and EPs. Because you know why though again, think capitalism, what's going to sell? If the large majority of your audience is a white audience, which blackness do they want to see? How do they maintain their delusion of supremacy, right? th. th. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. their, their, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. their, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. A, thi. A, thi. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A.a.a.a.a. A.a. A.a. A.a. A. A.a. A.a. A.a.a.a. A. A.a. A.a. A. A. So do they maintain their delusion of supremacy, right? If not by being entertained

by the lowest of us, by the ghettoist of us. They have to maintain the idea that they are superior to us. So let us continue to project these notions of black people being hood, not being able to speak, killing each other, sliding up and down the pole. And I don't have shame about that. What's so interesting. I'm thinking of sister Monique. She came out and it was a whole rally around sisters wearing bonnets in public. I was so annoyed by that, right? Not because I myself want to walk outside with a bonnet, but like, I just don't think we can afford to be out here doing these public kind of let's get us folk together because ultimately what you're saying is we got to act right in front of these white folks. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't change anything. You think they're looking at what you're wearing

before they shoot you 90 times? It doesn't change anything. And so we get so caught up in the surface of things. We do the code switching. We want to live in certain neighborhoods. We drive certain cars. If we got we got we got we got go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go go. We go. We the their their their their their their their. their their. their. their. their. the the the the the the their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. te. te. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. their. their. their. their. th. to live in certain neighborhoods, we drive certain cars. If we got Gucci, we want it right here on our chest. I want to make sure you see that it's Gucci, right? Because we know that there's value afforded, right, to the performance, I think, of value. And to me, that's what, we can't afford to be doing that, because ultimately when we're not thinking critically about it, we're not recognizing how we are supporting a white supremacist ideology. We're not dismantling it, we're not pushing back against it. We're saying you're right.

Let's act right, y'all. Instead of saying this whole way of thinking is out of order. I think Ashton and I are going to have the same answer to this question but I'm asking it to you first Dr. Blake. When we think about our upbringing and how that affects how we view blackness and what is blackness, was there ever a time in your life where you didn't feel black enough where you felt disassociated from the black mainstream however you define it? Yeah, I would say in that regard there were times where I didn't feel black American, right? because I grew up in a Ghanaian home, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th is thi, and thi, and what is th is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and what is, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that regard, there were times where I didn't feel black American, because I grew up in a Ghanaian home, right? And so though I saw myself connected at home,

we eat with our hands, you know, we listen to a different type of music, and I feel like I've always been just interested, and let me connect the dots so I don't feel, you know? And so there were things in New Orleans culture. I'm like, oh, we do that too. It's okra and gumbo. We eat okra stew. You know what I mean? I was always trying to show people we're more like than we are different. Everybody doesn't necessarily see things those ways. But yeah, I definitely spent a lot of time. My name is not yaba. My name is yaba. My name, my name, my name, my name, my name is, my name is not, my name is not, I, I, I, I th, I th. th. I th th thi, I thi, I thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was th thi, I was thi, I was always always always always always always th, I was always always always th. I was always always th. I was always thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was thi, I was always thi, I was always thi, I was always thi, I was always thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi makes it easy to your turn, it's Yaba. When I go to Ghana, it's the only place I hear people singing my song to the right tune. And so there's so many ways that I've had to Americanize, I should say, black Americanize myself.

Because of your cultural root, how did you deal with the black American divide between black Americans and Africans, if I would just be to to to to to to to to to to you to you to you to you to to you to to to to to to be the black American divide between black Americans and Africans if I'm just be 100 about it where you know we would call your slur and you talk funny and oh why you wearing that and you like the African booty scratcher Ashton I'm sure you're familiar with that southern attack phrase. So. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, it was such commonplace, you know, as a black American, to view people like yourself as other and not part of the diaspora. Like that was never taught. I'm just be real with you. Like,

it was never introduced. It definitely wasn't introduced in the school system. And unless you had parents that interacted with immigrants, they didn't know what the hell. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. the. I. the. the. I. the. the. the. the. the. the. I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, the. It. It. It was, it. It was, it. It was, it. It was, it. It was, it. It was, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. the, the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. ta. ta. ta. ta. the. the. the. the. the. the.'t know what the hell, they was too busy telling you, you got to, I march for you, boy, you going to school and you're going to go to college because them white folks was beating on me in the 60s. That's... And also, it's not just that. It's the fact that we've othered ourselves from Africa so much as black people that when we see, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, like the commercial, I see, you, oh, buddy, buddy, we're not saying you like the. Or even, I've gotten the sense that for many black Americans, there is a resentment, right?

Because a lot of, and I can speak for West Africans specifically, a lot of West Africans coming to the US and getting, quote unquote, better jobs, they're going straight to doctor, their, their, their, their, their, th, th, th, to, to, to, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, I, tha, tha, tha, tho, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, they're going straight to lawyer, they're going to certain, you know, an economic status and being able to live in certain areas. This idea that they are coming to take something from you, right? I've definitely gotten that sense. And it's true, like in our West African community in New Orleans, very middle class at that. and so for me my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my my thoe my thoe my thoe, my th me, my the, my the, my code, my code, my code, my code, my code, my code, my code, my code, my code, my code, my codeeckck, theck, to, toeck, toeck, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thoes, thoes, thoes, th.................................... I, to, to, to, to, toeck, theck, toeck, toeck, toe.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e. And, ise. And, ise. And, is middle class at that. And so for me, my code switching wasn't even about white people. It was about going from Africa to Black America.

It was about switching my behavior in that cultural zone to wanting folks to know, like, I'm down like you. So no, I might not have a grandmama in the project, but the minute I had the ability to go to the project, I was going to hang out in in in in in in it was almost like I was trying to make sure that I knew what the experiences were about so that you couldn't keep me from them. If that makes sense. That makes me open, I want to know then what is blackness? Because it seems like everybody has a relationship to that. their tha. to their to to to to to to to to to to to their their their relationship, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience experience experience, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, super hood person, you got your own person relationship with blackness, unless you're some girl, somebody who's like, you know, too white for the black people,

too black for the white people. Like, it seems like there's a relationship to blackness that every single black person, dark skin person, melonated person has to deal with. So what is that, is there a essence long-term work, but I think our confusion, the conundrum, is that we're thinking about blackness as a race and not a culture. And so we would be able to take the time to understand what a culture is and what cultural moors are, we would, again, be able to recognize, I hear it all the time when folks go to Ghana, when they go to Jamaica, when their......... their. they. they. they. they. they. they. they. th. they. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that, thea. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, tha. And, thin. And, tha. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, tha. And, they. And, tha. And, tha. And, th. And, th. And when they go to Jamaica, they're like, we do that, we do that. It's like this, you know, and I say there's a hashtag that I've used everywhere we go, there we are. But you

have to be open to seeing yourself in that way, right? And I think that's the critical thinking in the consciousness. You have to be open to making the connections as opposed to drawing better seated, right? Again, not minorities. We are a global majority. So it's in our best interest then to see all of the ways that we are connected to one another as opposed to distinct. I would say for me, if there was a time where I knew I didn't necessarily feel black enough, was when I first started doing stand-up comedy. Because in 98, you know, off the heels of the Deaf Jam movement and the rise of BT's comic view, a lot of black comedy thrived in stereotypes,

not necessarily, not just about the world, but also about blackness. So blackness was defined by whatever the collective shared experience was. In that particular night or that group of people. So there would be nights where I get on stage, you know, and I started when I was 19. So my early jokes were just a 19-year-old black college student. Had them folks in the room was over the age of 50 and never went to college. So this book buyback joke, it ain't gonna connect with you. You, you have to work. And so the one

thing I did gradually learn over time though with black people, and we're just talking about the diaspora, my comedy changed, my comedy evolved, is that the one thing we all share is pain in a struggle and figuring out a way to make it. Whether you still live in the Caribbean or you still live overseas, or if you're a black grit, whatever it is, you're dealing with some form of struggle. So when I learned how to coach whatever it was I want to talk about in a form of, here's what I'm dealing with and made it about my form of blackness, people were more, the jokes were more well received versus have y'all ever, don't y'all all hate it when you be swimming? No, I don't get in the pool during a pool

part. You know, so that's kind of where I felt out of place. Ashton, I don't know, you know, coming up in the black clubs in Houston and Memphis and stuff if you dealt with that, but for me, that was like the first smack in the face of like oh I'm different black absolutely had the exact same experience you know one of my mentors is Ali Sadik if you know anything about him he he thrives in he thinks pressure makes diamonds and he loves going to hood rooms because that pressure baked diamonds and I would go in there same exact thing I'm a college kid being like, my car is, it's pushed to start. It just takes three people.

Am I right guys? They'd be like, boy if you don't get that, boy, and so it definitely was a struggle. It may be looking myself like, damn, it's my comedy for white people. But no, actually, one, it's two things I know this. Black people just like, speak, be real, be real, and now they can connect,

it's a connection you can find it. Two, be entertaining. That's it. I got in my head a lot thinking it was me and my two white and it's like, no, once I started being myself more, more with audiences. But there was a complex in my head for a while with my blackness and relationship with my comedy. And there are also going to be other black folks like you who have similar experiences, you know, so maybe they're your audience. But one thing I also want

to come back to something you said, Roy, because I hear this a lot when folks think about blackness and they think about the things that are common amongst us, this idea that we all have a common struggle, right, like no matter where we are across the world. And that is real because white supremacist delusion is global. Global. For me, though, I also want us to balance that out and recognize, you know, people say black girls are magic. That's not to, not to take away from our humanity, but that magical piece, because I also love comedy, right? The fact that even through all of these things that y'all have the ability to make people

laugh, even while these things are happening, we find a way to come up with all the Tick-Tock dances, right, we've got the best music, we've got the best, we're still cooking, we're still eating good ti ti. We're still hugging and kissing, and kissing, and kissing, the people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people the people the their the best. We're still cooking. We're still eating good. We're still having a good time. We're still hugging and kissing and speaking to people on the street that you don't even know, wishing your baby while at graduation. We're still doing all these things. And I think that's what,

they don't understand why we still smile and laughing and dancing. After all that our ancestors have been through, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, the, we, the, we, the, th, th, we, th. thi, thi, we, we, th. thi, we, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, thi, tho, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, to, thin, thin, th. th. to, th. to, to, to, thi. to to to to to to to to to to to thi, thi, th we, they couldn't, after all that our ancestors have been through and we still, we're not supposed to be here. We're still here, and not only are we still here, we can have a good time at the same time, there are times where thi's times when the times, and theymea thiaughed all of the wackest, ratchetous memes and videos. Let me laugh. It's always, we're always going to have the space to laugh and find joy. So with that, with all of that being said, and everything we have unpacked up into this point. How did you decide to write a book on all of this, Dr. Blake?

This is stressful by your own admission just now. It's sometimes stressful. So I can only imagine the process of unpacking everything to decide where to focus your book. Because like, because your work focuses on like colorism and beauty and gender and politics. And so with this book book you figured out a way to go beyond that and explore blackness as a whole globally like how we're all connected like so when you wrote one drop shifting the lens on race did you know this was going to be a big ass mountain that you was going to

have to climb and why did you still decide to climb the mountain and write this book? I didn't know but step by step that one that is a blessing for me, I was trained at Temple University, home of Afrocentricity and African-centered ideology. We talk about a place, but we're not talking about black and white, we talk about African and European, right? And so, it's a very black space, and one of the greatest blessings in my training was that I should center myself, right? In research, so many times folks are encouraged to be objective, whatever that means, that you should separate yourself from the work that you're doing. And this is why you can have black folks doing research about their own communities and using language like them and they, I'm going to say me and us, right? And so that there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, that, thi. they, I'm going to say me and us, right? And so that there's a literally a shift in my thinking, in my movement, when I connect to the work, right?

So, I grew up in New Orleans, and what you should know about New Orleans is that there's a long history of color-coded racial ideology, right? And so, whereas in other places in the world, or in the country, white and black and black, and black, and black, th and black, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th and their, their, thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. There, their, their, their, their, their? And so, whereas in other places in the world, or in the country, white and black, in New Orleans, it was white, Creole, black, and creole is a larger umbrella is just to say, not fully black, so you could be quadrun, all these terms, right? Historically, literally, one quarter black, three quarters white, you know, like that kind of equations. All that to say that historically that meant that blackness

seemed to be a punishment, right? So that if you had any bit of mixing and listen to the language, you got to be something else. You didn't have to be black. So blackness was a punishment of sorts. I say that just to preface, me growing up, I probably knew that I was dark skin before I knew how to spell my name, because everybody made it a point. Oh, you're so black, you so black, she black, the black, black, black, black. Black, black, black, black. Like, constantly, I knew, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, I that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I that, I that, I that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, I black like constantly I knew that I was dark skin right and what I also knew just on a child's observation

My father taught it Xavier right and so here's an HPCU and many of the students who were sent to Xavier They were brown skin folks for a large majority of them were very very light skin some of them Some of them may have identified as Creole. Some could have passed for a variety of things, but it's to say, just even as a child, I saw what's the mayor look like, what city council look like? What the students at Xavier look like.

I could see the power and privilege that was assigned to lighter skin. I could also see how lighter skin folks treated me. I like like like like like, like, I, I, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I the tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I the tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, tho, the thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th, the th, the th. the th, the th. th, th. the th. th. tho, tho, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. theaa, theaugh, thi, thea, thea, thia, thia, thia, thia, thi. thi. thi. how lighter skin folks treated me. Like I couldn't, I wasn't invited to someone who I thought was one of my best friends in elementary school. I wasn't invited to her birthday party because my mom said I was too black. Yeah. This is a black girl or another black child or a white child. I'm gonna call a Creole. That's even worse. Right. Now to me, Creole is black, but who am I to to tell you who to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. I'm th. I'm to thi. I thi. I'm thi. I'm th. I'm to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi. I'm thi. I'm thr. I'm thi. I'm thr. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I is black, but who am I to tell you who you are? Right? Y'all rolling with it, roll with it. But it is to say, it was a different experience and I felt that. We moved from New Orleans to Delaware because my dad went from Xavier to Del State. And I had a whole different experience coming up north.

Now, did I know I was dark skinned, th I had my Foxy Brown era. You know, like it was a different situation up here. And then of course the 90s hip hop, you know, we red, black and green, I'm wearing head wraps. Like, my stock is real high because I'm an original African. You know, so- Sister Soldier and yeah. You know, so that was my experience. All of that to say, by the time I got to grad school moved back to New Orleans and then came back up to go to grad school at Temple, I had an experience with a sister who I wouldn't

have called a sister at the time who was a grad student at the program. Super, super, super, super light. I ain't know anything about her but what I know is she would come up to the eighth floor Glad Felto Hall, which was our common area and she wouldn't speak. thr How you come up here, room full of black people, and you just don't speak. How do I work? So in my mind, I'm connecting dots. This is how Negro's acting in New Orleans.

This is how you act, you want to them. You one of those people who thinks that light skin, you have privilege. You one of those people who think that you have privilege because you like skin. Check. I don't fool with you. And I did not fool with her, right? Before she graduated, she got her master as one of our common professors, was like, you got to read Danielle's paper. And I'm like, I'm not reading shit. You got to read Danielle's paper. I read her paper. I come to find out that she, her father's black, mother's white, Mennonite from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She. She, she, she, she, she, she, she, her father's black, mother is white, Mennonite from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. She grew up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, where she was the blackest thing there. She was really clear that she was black in Lancaster because they told herself.

And it got so bad to the point where she dropped out of high school and finished at home, home school GED, right? She came the temple because she wanted to be around black folks. She wanted to to to to to to the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she got, she got, she got, she got, she got, she grew, she, she, she, she grew, she grew, she grew, she grew, she grew, she grew, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, the temple because she wanted to be around black folks. She wanted to be in Philly with black folks. She wanted to connect with the blackest face. She got amassers in black studies because she wanted to, right? And she came up there not speaking because she thought we didn't like her. She thought she wasn't black enough. So she was reserving her piece. And I'm like, wow.. You know then I had another experience being on a panel with a sister Rosa Clemente and you know we talk about colorism and diaspora and she introduces herself I'm Rosa Clemente and I'm a

black Puerto Rican woman from the South Bronx and I'm looking at her like black Puerto Rican what's that? I just know Puerto Ricans and she doesn't look black for what I thought I knew black as the was at the time, but she was adamant to continue to say black Puerto Rican, black Puerto Rican, black Puerto Rican. And so it just had me thinking like, yo, blackness looks a whole lot of ways in this world, but I'm also very interested in, and again, listen to my own, how I've been impacted for folks who don't have to. For to are you choosing blackness? And so the book is about me talking to them. But yeah, like if you don't have to be black,

why are you choosing blackness? And so in the book, I interview them about their blackness. And though many of them use different languages, like Danielle identifies as black and menanite, they're people who identify as biracial, multiracial, just, you know, different terms. Even the, again, the language that we use, wanting to know what does that mean to you to identify as black and midnight or biracial or mixed race. Because in fairness, I've always judged those terms. Because again, historically and in my experience, oh, you're just saying you you're the black. You're trying to take the out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out, I, I, I, I, I, I, the out, the out, the out, the out, the out, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the thea, different, different, thea, different, different, different, different, different, different, different, different, different, different, different, different, different, te, te, te, te, te, te, te, t, t, t, t, t, t, t, t, t, t, t. different, t. different, te, te, te, the. different, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. different, the. different, the. different, the. the. the. the. their, their, their, their, thea. different, thea. the. the. you biracial so you don't have to say you black you're trying to take

the out I've never had an out. Now see that brings up a question that after the break I want to get into about how can we fix those moments that you had on the eighth floor how what can we do as fellow black folks capital capital B, to make better choices when we see a quiet negro across the room and figure out whether or not they are a hater or whether not they are ally. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right there. Beyond the scenes, we're bringing it home, talking blackness what it means to be black,

and whether or not you can place all of that blackness at the foot of black politicians and expect them to honor all different quadrants of blackness. Dr. Blay, before the break, you were telling a very, very wonderful story about a woman who I would assume now as a colleague and how we can sometimes as black people tend to misread one another initially if we think that your blackness is something that is different. What can we do now to better understand each other's black experiences? Because I will say that I feel like artistically we're in a better space now,

because I would argue that a cat like Donald Glover or Esa Ray would not have gotten shows or would not have gotten the same looks 25 years ago versus today. I do think that young black people that are different who did not come up necessarily in the hood, you know, even Djibouki, who was on with us for a long time, Ashton, I would argue that them taking their identity and owning that, yes am black and accept me as I am yeah I like anime and what is I think part of it but what can we do as layman to better understand each other's black experiences doctor? I mean that's a great question I want to honor our feelings though right and so the reason why I tell that story is I don't want to throw away the fact that I had a certain upbringing and certain certain painful experiences

And so that Danielle's presence was a trigger for me I have to own that so right so that that's that's my job and my work to work through that the question Is always how you know is it only through therapy? I don't know um I have to work through that? I have to work thrown. thrown. thrown. the thrown. to work? I? I to work? I thrown. I thrown. I thrown. I to work. I thrown. I have thrown. I have thrown. I have thrown. I have thrown. I have thrown. I have thrown. thrown. I have their thrown. thr-I thr-I thr-I thr-I. thr-I. thr-I. thr-I. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. thr. thrown. thr. thr. thrown. thr. thr. then on Danielle to know, okay, you want to understand blackness. There's certain things that we do as black people, right? We speak. We're not saying have a whole conversation. Good morning, good afternoon. Hey, how y'all doing. A nod even, but just to walk with your head up and not acknowledge us,

we're gonna think about you funnily. I got a problem right there. I am in my head all the time. And if me looking down at the ground means like, I'm not participating in blackness, then I'm like, oh, well, I'm sorry, I'm insecure. I guess I'm not black anymore. No, that's a good point too, because you know, at the end of the day, it's not always all about us, right? all the time. You never know what somebody is dealing with or how they're thinking about. So that's absolutely fair. I guess when I'm struggling with to answer, I'm struggling to answer the question, right? What can we do? I think these conversations are helpful.

I think honesty, you know, about who we were, I know so many people all the course of my life, who've just straight up lied about where they've been and what they did trying to get their black card check. Like you ain't never hung out in the projects. Why are you saying that? I mean even rappers, even rappers, what's you raping about? So that's because I was going to ask you. That's it from my perspective, I mean it seems like just because it seems like we have all so much baggage with it that's like gatekeeping blackness is it's unnedn't, you're, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you're that, you're that, you're that, you're that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's like, that's like, that's like, that's like, that's like, that's like, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that, that, that, that, that's that, that's that's that's that's that's that's the the the the thaping, the thaping, the the that, the the that, the that, they's like, the they're the than, that, that, they're that, that, that, that, thi, thi, that, you're black, you're black. In my head, since there is such a big spectrum of blackness, you can't really define it, you're black. It seems like something that you just can't gatekeep being black. But that being said, like, I have one hand that feels like you shouldn't gatekeep

blackness because it'll create complexes and insecurities and people. And then on the other hand, I don't want Jack Harlow to be in rap. So I have to find a way. Okay. I know. Okay, so then, so then let's get to the shit then. So then let's get to it. So this is the last question. Can you define blackness? Because now if you're going to introduce Jack Harlow into the conversation and go, okay, you have somebody who we think is a culture vulture and is just coming in and co-opting an experience that speaks to, that is rooted in something spiritual that we know you cannot relate to because of your upbringing dog. Where do you put black conservatives when we're trying to define blackness? And we're not just talking about the Clarence Thomas is and everybody else who stumped for Trump.

I'm not naming names. You know the names. Who have to name the names? They and your family. But where do you put, all right, give me a Stacey Dash. Like, where does that fall on the black spectrum? Should that also be respected as some form of thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, thu, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thus, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu, thu. thu. thu. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thu. is thi, thu. thu, thu, thu, that fall on the blackness spectrum? Is that, should that also be respected as some form of black ideology,

even though it's not necessarily traditional? And is that also defined as part of blackness? Or is that like a weird boil that we got to burn off and free, you know, how you remove a bowl, Ashton, what you do? You freeze that thing and you twist that. I think these are difficult. He gotta do that to Stacy Day. I think we have to, we have to continually put ourselves in these situations.

This is uncomfortable. I don't have an answer, right? Because nothing fits cleanly in here. Um, again, blackness as a culture. Do we feel some type of way then th then then then th th th th th th th the the thi th because nothing fits cleanly in here. Again, blackness as a culture, do we feel some type of way then that the Kardashians got to insert things when it was convenient to make a shitload of money, and then when it's not convenient, you can go back to your original factory settings and date white boys.

They took their booties out. They like they straight went back to 1.0. Which is another they did another black thing. They went back to their roots. They cannot stop skin living black people. They went back to their white boots. It's hard to say you know. In regards to Stacey Dash, yes, Stacy you are a black woman. I will not take that from you. You are not in a position to represent black people. Amarosa is probably a better example because she had more of a political platform and influence. Yes. Would be a more fair black conservative. Because some of what Stacy was doing, I could say was opportunistic and for exposure

to build your career and portfolio, whereas I feel like Amarosa had more calculated motives. Not in fairness though, it's interesting, as you name these names, we wouldn't question these people's blackness, you're black. I don't think they ever position themselves to say I'm a representative, they don't want to be a representative of the black community. They just want you to take them as they are. We might have a better conversation.

If it's somebody who's tho's who's who a representative of the black community, now we got questions. So to be a representative of the black community, you have to follow those certain ideologies and certain, there's me being myself without no communication with the black community. I couldn't be part of the black community. I couldn't be part of the black. Why would you have communication with the black? Why would you not have communication with the black community? I'm just saying if I was born in a vacuum. If I was born in a vacuum, that's what I'm saying. Why would you represent us?

Just because you're black? No, that's... I don't think skin is enough qualification. So if, and again, this conversation, this conversation, thio-savou, thiiiiiii people's lived experiences. I think that is an important question. And you gotta keep your word once you're elected. This is a conversation that we could go on and on and on about, Dr. Blay, I cannot thank you enough for coming in here. The book is one drop, shifting the lens on race. Ashton Womack has not yet written a book because he is too busy going out to New York City Comedy club slaying jokes. Ashton you need to get your life together. That's

why you ain't got no books in your background. Step one read a book. Thank you Dr. Yavabla and Ashton for taking us beyond the scenes. See you next time. Catch you guys. Thanks. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the I-Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast.