The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Derecka Purnell - "Becoming Abolitionists"

Episode Date: December 21, 2021

Lawyer, activist and writer Derecka Purnell talks about her book "Becoming Abolitionists," which takes a deep dive into the notion of abolishing the police. Originally aired September 2021. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Derek, welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much for having me. You have written a book that is sure to get you a ton of praise, and then, I mean, death threats and criticisms from the high heavens. Because, I mean, I've learned this personally. If you even suggest a criticism of the police, especially in America, you are seen as somebody who hates all police, you're seen as somebody who loves crime, you're seen as somebody

who just doesn't believe in a functioning society. Yes. But when you go abolish the police, but when you go abolish the police, their, theymeat, I mean, let's start with that. their toe. the told that. to the tho th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the. the. the. the. the. the. thr. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their their their. their. their thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. to to toeishing the police without having people believe that then we're going to be living like in like a mad max dystopian future? Oh well it depends on who I'm talking to right so there are people who I organize with or communities where I live and when I talk about police abolition the first question is you know what about the murderers what about the rapists will I be safe right and I'm usually in conversation with people who their vi-nivers their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is.s is. their. their. their. their their their their their tapist. ta. ta. ta. ta. their their their their their their their their their their most vulnerable to violence from their lovers, their neighbors, strangers, cops.

And so then I ask them, with a million cops right now, do you feel safe? And usually the answer is no. And what abolition feels like to them is nothing. Right. It feels like absolutely nothing. And when you have nothing, no investment in your education and your health care, you know, and any of the things that would make you live a life where you can thrive, police feel like something and something can feel like everything, right? If your option is nothing. And so I try to articulate

is that police abolition or prison abolition is not merely the absence of police, it's eliminating the root causes of harm and it's merely the absence of police, right? It's eliminating the root causes of harm and it's eliminated the kind of society that could rely on police to solve that harm because we know police can't solve it. So that's sort of where I start. I ask people if they feel safe, what makes them feel safe? And how can we start building that world together? Instead of just relying on police to do that work because it's ineffective. I ask this this this this this this this this this this this question this question this question this question this question th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi the question thi. I thi. I thi, I ask thi, I ask their tho their their thi, their their their tho, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, to do that work because it's ineffective. I asked this question I go why can we not as society not just eliminate the need for police in those certain areas so we go I agree with

you police shouldn't be helping people unlock their cars police shouldn't be helping a homeless person who's on the street police shouldn't be interacting with somebody who has a mental illness police shouldn't be coming to you because you played your music too loud, etc., etc., etc. And police I think would say the same thing. Of course. So if we eliminate the need for police to do those things and then they can focus on subduing criminals, you know, like as you said, the murderers, the killers, the kidnappers,

the whi. Why do you still argue for abolition as a whole? Oh, yeah, of course. Well, one reason is because we should ask questions like, why do people kill people? Or why do people commit sexual violence? Because sending police to go and arrest someone who's a murderer, it doesn't prevent the murder. Right? So I think about the neighborhood where I grew up. So many black boys that I had questions on don't live to become men. They just don't, they don't make it past 21, they don't make it past 15, they don't make it past 30.

It's not as if police are standing out in front of their houses every night protecting them from the bullets that enter their windows. That's not what policing do. Okay. Police can go get the person who may have killed the person who may in the U.S. 16,000 people rather, who are killed in the U.S. every single year. And what we essentially task police to do is go be body searchers. When we actually know what eliminates and prevents murders, right, which is a strong

economy, jobs, health care, education, being connected as a part of a community where there's accountability. If you're disrupting communities by taking away jobs, by decimating education, by putting people in prison, so then when they come out, they're in a much more precarious situation in the first place, you're essentially creating the conditions for more violence, right? And that doesn't keep anybody safe. In a world where the police have been abolished. Yes. Two things. One, what is the transitionary period? Okay. You know, because that's a scary part. It's like, because when you go abolish the

police, people go like, so no police tomorrow? Does that mean we get a trouble spike of murder? That is not worth. And then, the second part of that question is, the, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. the, th. the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the transition, the transition, their, their, their, their, what is, what is, their, what is, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, their, thr.a, thro.a.a.a. th.a.a. th. the. throoo. the. the. thr. their, their, their, one, what is the transitionary period? And two, what then happens when somebody kills? People have been killing from Bible times. You know, so what then happens? So let's start with, what is the transitionary period? Yes, can I actually answer the questions in River? Oh yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so if we think about something like, I don't know, murder. Murtle. to control the sexuality of a woman. Okay.

Okay. And so that's not something that's natural to a man. It's something he's conditioned to do under patriarchy, right? So abolitionist asks, how can we eradicate what's conditioning men to believe that they should be able to control a woman's sexual life? Right. How do we eradicate that impulse to say, no you can't leave this house, no you can't break up with me? To the point where we'll murder that person.

The second reason why people kill each other is for control over petty arguments. Something you've said, and I'm using men as an example because they're overwhelmingly convicted of murder. Right, right, right. Right, okay. Not to, yeah, not to disany men. Okay, so the second reason why people kill each other is because of these, these petty arguments, right? It's like, you said something that insult to my manhood and now I'm angry, now we're going to... Oh, you've taken something that is why you've they... You're the thaken something. You're thaken something. You're that's thaken something. You're that's thi?? that's that's thi. You're that's the that's that's that's that's that's that's not that's not that's that's that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. that. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You. You. You. You. You're-. You're-. You're-. You're that. You're that. You're that. You're the. You're the. You're the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the second. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. the the've taken something exactly exactly so people are conditioned to do that and the good thing about well it's not good that they're conditioned but that conditioning can be undone right we can teach people to have different kinds of relationships we can teach men and boys and children how to interact with women differently or people who are

trans or people who are queer I don't disagree with that yes I wonder is that not leading to a utopian place? Like it's a utopian ideal but what happens? I still ask the only question which is what happens if eight out of ten men are like we've been conditioned we are fine with this? Yes. Two out of ten men come and go I'm taking what's yours, I'm killing your woman, I'm doing. Who then now? Yes, which is why I tried to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer to answer the the the they they they they. I they. I'm they. I'm their their their the only. I'm the only. I the only. I's. I'm? I'm? I'm. I'm? I'm. I'm the only. I'm the only. I'm the only. I'm the only. I'm the only. I'm the only. I'm the only. I'm the only. I'm they. I'm they. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I still. I still. I'm. I still. I'm. I still. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm the. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm doing who then now? Yes, which is why I try to answer the questions in reverse. Because one, abolition does not happen overnight. There are a million cops. There are 2,300 jails in prisons there. 18,000 law enforcement agencies. America loves cops. There's no way abolitionist is going to happen. there's no abolitionist who I know who are organized with, who expects it to happen. What we do expect people is to be committed to experimentation

to figuring out how to get there. How do we get to that two out of ten? Because right now we're in a society where it's like nine out of ten, right? How do we even get there? And so what's frustrating is that people will have a step back and say, well, you don't have an answer for every single scenario. So there's no need to do anything. Right. What's so sad is that cops don't have an answer for every single scenario. But who is funded? Police. Right?

We get increased police budgets. Murder jumps. Okay, we need to increase police. Well, if they knew the answer, if more police was the answer, then why isn't murder decreasing? Why isn't all these ills in society decreasing? And so we're doing the inverse, right? So the one example that's usually helpful for me, is an analogy of like a house with a leaky roof. Right. So you have, it's dripping and dripping and dripping. And then you put a bucket underneath it to catch this water. The leak picks up. Next thing you know, the buckets are overflowing.

And at some point, someone who has scents in the house says, we need to get rid of these buckets because they're like, it's mess everywhere, it's not working on the leak. And abolitionists are trying to figure out, well, why is the house leaking in the first place? And the police are kind of like the buckets, except buckets don't kill people. They're kind of like the buckets. People are like, you want to take buckets out of my house? This is going to flood, it's going to smell like mildew is going to be messy. We're like, no, no, no, no. We don't want your house to flood. We want the roof to stop leaking. Then it is just to keep replacing buckets, buying buckets, getting different colors of

buckets. That's, there's only so much we can do with that because buckets were not intended to stop leaks, right? That takes a different kind of skill and a different kind of imagination, a different kind of commitment. Fundamentally, what you're saying is Americans need to think about solving the cause instead of only treating the symptoms. And. And to that I say good luck. Okay.

Derek, thank you so much for joining me. It's been amazing having you here and your book is twice as amazing as the conversation because you can have it for much longer. Watch the Daily Show, Weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.