The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Eddie S. Glaude Jr. - "Begin Again," James Baldwin and a Moral Reckoning for America

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

Eddie S. Glaude Jr. talks about his book "Begin Again," which delves into the life of writer James Baldwin and his struggle for racial equality. Originally aired July 2020. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling? But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Seth Done of CBS News, listen to 60 Minutes, a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17th. Professor Glod, welcome to the Daily Social Distancing Show. It's my pleasure. First of all, can I just say how impressed I am that you, you're at

home but you're rocking that suit like you are in a studio somewhere. It's really pleasure. First of all, can I just say how impressed I am that you're at home, but you're rocking that suit like you are in a studio somewhere? It's really impressive. You know, if you ask me to stand up, it'll be a different question, but I appreciate that. I appreciate that. I appreciate it. People always ask me about the books that are behind me here, and yours has been here almost from the very beginning I think. You write about race and you write about America's stories and the stories it tells

itself about race. James Baldwin is notorious for being a writer who wrote and spoke his mind and in many ways taps into the consciousness of what it means to be black in America. Your new book delves into his life but it's part biography, part analyzing, you know his writing and how it applies to to, to, to what to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to what to what to to what to to what to to to to what to to what to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the means to be black in America. Your new book delves into his life, but it's part biography, part analyzing, you know, his writing and how it applies to what we're going through today. In all the time, since those books have been written, has anything changed?

Well, you know, Bolton has this wonderful line, America's always changing, but the a tauble that's a thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that's that's that's that's toa, that's that's to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi, thi, thi, thrueueueueu., throwne, throwne, thrown, thrown, thrown, thrown, the, thrown, thrown, thi., thi., to wa, to wa, to wathat the country is dynamic, but there's this ongoing through line. And this through line is the value gap, the value gap that I mentioned in democracy and black, and that is this belief that white people matter more than others. And that belief evidences itself, Trevor, in our habits, and our dispositions, and then we tell a whole host of lies to protect those beliefs. And so even as we change, th, tho tho tho th, tho tho th, tho tho tho the tho tho tho the thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, Barack Obama as the president is not the same as being in Jim Crow, which is not the same as being enslaved, but the through line is why people have valued more than others.

And so that's what Baldwin understood. And I think he's our most insightful writer about democracy and race in this country. And I think that's why his work is like an evergreen. But what I do in this book is I focus on th, I the th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I the th, I focus th, I focus th, I focus the, I focus tho, I focus the, th, the, th, the, the, the, the, thi, the, the, the, is the, is the, is the, is the, is the, is tham, is tham, is tham, is tham, is tham, is th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, the, the. And I think that's why his work is like an evergreen. But what I do in this book is I focus on the latter work, the later writings, and that's what's unsettling a lot of people. This is stuff that was written, so it was out there. But it really seems to unsettle people when you delve into Baldwin's work and almost delve into what it means. Why do you think it's so unsettling thun unsett unsett a Baldwin that's trying to come to terms with America's betrayal.

Most folks say he's bitter, he's angry, his rage is overwhelmed as art. But Baldwin is trying to come to terms with the fact that the country has assassinated Martin Luther King Jr. He's collapsed. In 1969 he he tries to commit suicide. Failed relationship. The. T. T. T. T. T. the the to. to to to to to to to to to to to ries to commit suicide. Failed relationship, the country is on the road to not only electing Richard Nixon, but it's on the road to electing Ronald Reagan. And for many people, they don't understand, Ronald Reagan was as notorious as George Wallace for black folk in this country.

And so I was interested in Baldwin, who was trying to make sense about trauma, our pain, our wound, trying to pick up the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces the pieces to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, toe toe to, toe toe toe to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, toe, the the the the the the the, the the, the, the the, the theau.ooeck.oeck.o, toeck.oecklea.oeckleau.oeck. toe, toe, trying to make sense about trauma, our pain, our wound, trying to pick up the pieces in the face of America's betrayal. And here we are in our moment, after Barack Obama's presidency, and then the vitrool of the Tea Party, voter suppression and voter ID laws, and then we vomited up Donald Trump. And I was trying to deal with my own despair and disillusionment, and so I turned to him him him him him him to him to him him to him him him him him him him him him him him him, to him, to him, to him, to him, to him, to him, to him, to him, to him, to him, to, to him, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, and, the, the, the, the, the, trying to deal with my own despair and disillusionment and so I turned to him in that moment. Was there even a glimpse of hope in Baldwin's work? Was there something you looked at where you said, wow, okay at least that's changed or that's gotten better? Or this is one part of life for a black person in America that has maybe not held up in the text? Or is it just pretty much prophetic and also at the same thiiiiiiiiiiiii. thian thian thian thian thian thian thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. theat, theat, thi. thi. theat, th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I I I th. I th. I th. I th. I's t. I's t. I'm to, to, to, to, to, to, toeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. I's toda. I's the. I'm the.time relevant. Yeah, I found hope. You know, I had to, because one of the things I was trying to do is to figure out how to,

how did he manage his rage and his faith in us, right? How could he be angry and still have, hold on to the belief that we could still build a new Jerusalem? And there's this wonderful line he dropped in 1970, man he said, hope is invented thined, hope you know, that idea of hope being invented every day in the context of one having to battle for one's life, having to struggle just to find the space to smile, the space to just simply imagine that tomorrow could be better. You have to invent hope in that context.

And that becomes the precondition for you to join the battle again. Even when he becomes the precondition for you to join the battle again. Even when he embraced the anger and rage of black power, he never gave up the question that or the claim that it was a moral issue at its heart. And so at the end of the day, he wants to insist that we be true to ourselves, that we tell the truth about what we've done so that we can free ourselves into imagining being together differently. And as an artist and a poet, he tried to make that as clear as possible and as powerful and provocative as possible.

Let me ask you about this. One thing I pick up in Baldwin's writing is he oftentimes feels almost guilty that he's living in France for a certain amount of time where he's away from the strife of his fellow black American. And he acknowledges that he's living a better life as a black American in France. What's interesting is I remember black Americans who would come to South Africa and although apartheid was happening, they would comment on how they weren't subjected to the same racist laws as black South Africans were. And it's a really interesting dynamic where it feels thiiiiiii. th. th. th. thi, where it feels th. thi, where it feels thi, where it feels, where it feels, where it feels, where it feels, thi, thi, where it feels, where it feels, thi, where it feels, where it feels, where thi, where th, where thi, where thi, where thi, where th, where th, where th, where th, where thi, where th, where thi, where th. thi, where th. thi, where th. th, where th, where th, where th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, where th, thi, thi, where thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi's thi's their, thi's their thi's their thi's thi. theauii. thiiiito the same racist laws as black South Africans

were. And it's a really interesting dynamic where it feels like if black people go to a country where they don't have a history in that country, the people in that country seem to get along with them easier or in a different way, do you think part of it goes back to what Bolden was saying about the guilt and the burden of that guilt? Is that when people don't have to deal with the history of what peoples have done to other peoples, they can then engage in a forward-looking discussion? You know, I think Baltimore always grappled with survivors' guilt, right? He watched Medgar get murdered,

he watched Malcolm get murdered, and Malcolm get murdered, and Sammy Young, and Jimmy Lee Jackson, and he saw so many of his young friends from Howard and Fisk their eyes darkened. So he he wanted to write about all of those who did not survive and those who survived but who were broken. But he needed the space. You know when I when I was in Heidelberg I didn't you know I was in Heidelberg for an hour and I saw police four white police officers with their knees in the back of a black man who was screaming at the t top the the the the the the the the the the the the the the top the top the the top the top the top top the top top top the the the the top top the their eyes their eyes their eyes their eyes their eyes tip their eyes their eyes their eyes their eyes their eyes their their their their their their their their their their their their their their eyes their eyes their eyes their eyes their eyes their eyes their their t. tip. tip. tip. tip. top tip. to. to. I to. I to. I to. I to. I to. I to. I to. te. te. I te. te. te. te. te. I te. te. I was. I was te. I was teberg for an hour and I saw police, four white police officers were their knees in the back of a black man who was screaming at the top of his lungs help. I wasn't in Heidelberg for an hour.

But the thing is that I didn't have to comment on it. I didn't have to account for it, right? In some ways, I could go back to my flat and breathe. It was like a moment when I was way out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out. the their their, I was their, I was thua. th. that, I was that, I was that, I was that, I was that, I was th. that, I was, I was, I was, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, their, to, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. the tooooo. the the the the the the the the the tooome.e. too, the, toe. toe. to out of the country, I could exhale. You know, because I wasn't there black problem. You know, I was the American, walking around with my American passport. You know, right. And when I was at the, I gave lectures at the University of the North, when I was there, I wasn't there. You know what I mean? I looked like folk, but it wasn't, I wasn't, how can I put it, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I, I, I, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, the, the, the, the, the, wan't, wan't, wan't, wan't, want, walking, walking, wan't, wan't, wan't, wan't, walking, wan't, wan't, walking, walking, walking, wan't, walking, walking, walking, walking, walking, walking, I, it? I wasn't there Negroes. And so you get the space to breathe.

And so Baldwin would leave the country in order to think more carefully about it. Because when you're here, you have to navigate so much of this nonsense. And he left America in 1948 because he said, if I don't get out of this country, I'm either going to kill somebody or I'm going to be killed. So right here on Route 1, in Princeton, New Jersey. don't get out of this country, I'm either going to kill somebody or I'm going to be killed. So right here on Route 1, right here in Princeton, New Jersey, in Lawrenceville, our waitress refused to serve him and he hurled a glass at her head and shattered the glass behind her, and then had to run for his life. He knew the rage and anger was consuming him. He was becoming his stepfather.

So when he chose Paris, he had the space to actually actually actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually to actually, he had the space to actually create himself, to will himself, into being a writer. Sometimes it's all we need is the space to breathe so that we can be, man. What is the one thing you hope that they will get from this? So if somebody says to you, Professor, why would I want to read this book? What is the one thing you hope to give them in this new analysis of Baldwin's life? Yeah, I mean at the heart of it is the through line that we have to tell the truth. And Stan beer courageous enough to tell the truth. And once we tell the truth about what we've done and who we are, then we can free ourselves into imagining a different world and that we're shackled by our lives, we're trapped in this fantasy.

You know, America thinks of itself as the, as never-Neverland. It's always, you know, we're full of lost boys and lost girls. We don't want to be responsible and held accountable for anything. So we have to tell the truth and here we are in a moment of moral reckoning where the country can be otherwise, but every single time we try to give birth to a new nation, the umbilical court of white supremacy is wrapped around its neck. So we have to tell truth. We have to be truthful and be really responsible midwives so that we can give birth finally to a new country that is a genuinely multiracial democracy. Our history says we're not going to do very well, but I have faith because wherever human beings are, again, again, again, again, again, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, their, thi, thi, their, thi, their, thi, their, th. th. their, their, their is, their is thi, thi, their is, their is, their is, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their is, their is, their is, their is, their is, their is, their is, their is, their is is is their is their is, their is their is their is their is their is their is thi, thi, thi, thi, thr- is thr-a, thr-a, thr-a. And, togui. I is togui, togui, thr-a, thr-a, thr-s. And, is to do very well, but I have faith because wherever human beings are, again, we have a chance.

There is always hope. Professor Claude, thank you so much for joining us on the show. Thank you, Doc. I appreciate you. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah Ears Edition. Subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives.

But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look. Starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Comedy Central Podcast.