The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Esther Perel - A More Nuanced Look at Infidelity in "The State of Affairs"

Episode Date: January 5, 2022

Couples therapist Esther Perel discusses power and infidelity in her book "The State of Affairs." Originally aired November 2017. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Please welcome, Esther Perel. Myrel. Welcome to the show. My pleasure. There are so many people who have seen your TED talks about relationships. There are so many people who have read your articles about sex and the way we see sex in the world and how it applies to our daily lives.

When you look at everything that has happened post Harvey Weinstein, what do you think we are learning about sex and power? Sex and power are interdependent. They are interconnected. There is power in sex and power are interdependent, they are interconnected. There is power in sex and power can be sexy. But there's a difference between power two, which can be liberating and enhancing and affirming, and power over which can be oppressive and hurtful and demeaning.

Right. What we are seeing today are abuses of power, you know, and that's a very different situation. When I write about a consensual story. When I look at assault and harassment, I'm looking at a criminal story. Those are very different realities. What has changed is less the accused and more the power of the accuser. Whenever people, children, women have been violated, they've worried that they wouldn't be believed. And what it takes is people who have enough power to withstand

the forces of denial. Wow. If you look at the conversations around sex and denial and the ideas that we all face, you know, some people would say sex is a subculture of what we do as human beings. You have an interesting view and that is you see our cultures and our societies through the lens of sex. What does that mean? It means that every culture, its most rooted traditional, archaic values, are surrounding

sexuality and its beliefs and attitudes about sex. And the most progressive, radical changes also take place around sex. Every civilization tries to control sexuality, license and abstinence. You need some sex or they won't be a species. You can't have too much of it or nobody shows up for work. Now, when you talk about the state of affairs in the book,

especially in fidelity, it's such a powerful the state of affairs in the book, especially infidelity, it's such a powerful topic, especially in America. You know, just recently we saw a congressman where a tape came out of his infidelity and people asking questions around what does it mean, and, you know, obviously he had said different things in public, but it really is a powerful position where the story was then flipped and people were like, is it about the woman or is it about the man? You speak about how, in many ways, infidelity and the issues we're learning about now

displayed to us the power dynamic and the way women have been oppressed for so long. How do we learn that or how do we see that? So the first thing is, infidelity has never been a gender equal proposition. Men have practically had a license to cheat, with all kinds of theories that justified why they have it in their nature to Rome, and women have faced dire consequences and still have nine countries where they can be killed. So this is about sex and power, actually.

That's one of the big differences. What is changing today, actually, is that women are rapidly changing the infidelity gender gap. How are they doing that, and is that a good thing? Well, what it tells you is that women have basically behaved by virtue of the dire consequences of what could happen to them? Ostericism, pregnancy, destitution, and even death. And so once she has more economic independence, once she has no full divorce, once she can control

her own reproduction, and she's no longer worried that a baby is going to come out nine months from now whose color hair doesn't resemble hers, she may be more, you may learn more about her desire than you actually have learned about her throughout history which has been her compliance. Now, you hear stories of people saying, like a good example is Mike Pence. Now, you hear stories of people saying like a good example is Mike Pence. Before, the Harvey Weinstein scandal, everyone laughed at how Mike Pence would always bring his wife to a meeting if there was another woman and he said, I won't be alone in a room with the woman and people said, this is madness.

And then after Harvey Weinstein, people came out and said, well, you see, this is why he's doing it, to protect him from infidelity, to protect him from making these mistakes. Is that a good argument in how we should tackle the these scenarios? But what is the what is the argument? The argument is an age-old argument that says men are biological creatures in perpetual motion in search of an outlet. They can't control themselves and it is the woman who has to be his border, his boundary, and his full stop. The women's bodies need to be covered, hidden, haircut, you name it,

in order for him to be able to control his lustful urges. And she is helping him to do so because the poor man can't do it on his own. You know, if he's trace it's because of her, because she was so seductive, she was the tempterus. You know, it's the poor man, he's never in charge of anything. He's got power of galore, but he's never in charge of his own urges. Because she has to control them and not do what she didn't do a good job at it. That's an interesting point interesting point point point, we saw that in the election. You know, we saw people digging back into the world of Bill and Hillary Clinton, where

people went, Hillary, she didn't leave her man, she stuck with him. And you talk in the book about how the shame has always shifted, but it is always on the woman. Shame used to be the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to be that divorce carried all the stigma. Today, especially for a woman, choosing to stay when you can leave is the new shame. So not only are you betrayed and you're ashamed of being cheated on, but on top of it you have to lie about it because if you were to reach out to people and especially if you choose to stay with that person, you are triple, under the, triplelylyly accused, the the the the the the the the theylyly accusedly accusedly accusedly accusedly accusedly accused thly accused. the thly accused. And thly accused th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thripledue. to to to to to to the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to the stigma. the stigma. to their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to stay with that person you are triple under the triply accused and it is more of a pressure on women because today that we choose their one and only that

notion that it shouldn't happen I waited so long I picked my soul made when you deceive me lie on me cheat on me etc you you shattered the grand ambition of love. It means I'm not your one and only after all. And affairs have always been painful, but now they have become traumatic. When you talk about the state of affairs in the book, rethinking infidelity is a blasphemous term for many human beings. People will say, Esther, how can you? Infidelity is the worst thing that

could possibly happen. Anyone who cheats, anyone who's in a marriage where it ends because of cheating is the worst human being possible. You argue something slightly different, not condoning but arguing that they can be a good that comes from this. How? So I wrote the state of affairs because I think that we need a new conversation for the oldest sin. Any audience, I could ask here, have you been a child whose parent was unfaithful or left for somebody else? Have you been the offspring of an illicit love? Are you the friend that somebody has been weeping on? Are you the confidant? Or are you one of the three primary protagonists? In the end, 80% of this audience will say that they have been affected by the experience of infidelity in their lives. So it's not a few bad apples.

And for that, we need a conversation that's more caring, more compassionate, and doesn't just reduce everything in black and white, which doesn't mean to say it's good. But it does mean to say that it is complex and it has existed since marriage was invented, and so too the taboo against it. As somebody who deals with couples, as somebody who deals with powerful men, as somebody who deals with a lot of these stories, I don't know if there's any right answer, but how do you see a way forward? You know, you see like people go, oh, also went to rehab. And everyone was going to the same rehab. And in Congress, they're investigating themselves. And then they don't find anything or they do, but it's done.

And it seems like there is a quandary that people are in now going, like, well, what is the way forward? Is the rehabilitation? Should it be complete ostracization? Just from your point of th. the their their their their their is something that we could be doing in society to restore power balance? Is there something that we could be doing to equalize how women are treated in all of these environments? But let's establish something. The rehabs, there is no rehab for infidelity, you know, and this is a way of kind of, we used to be sinful. Today we have illness and it is the new frame so we can pathologize our

shi-shoddh'y behaviors, you know, and make ourselves be sick suddenly. What is it actually that is going to be treated in that place? You're acting as criminally and you're going to get help for them. So I think that we have to separate these two, are not the same reality. The story of infidelity. What of the very important changes to this, you know, interestingly, affairs have accompanied marriage regardless of the model of marriage. They were part of the patriarchal marriage, they were part of the romantic marriage, they're part of the new self-actualization.

It always has existed. And it involves for us to ask questions about the transgressive nature of desire, not just about power. You know, when we think affairs, it's quick to think about your Congress guys. But I get a letter today of, you know, my spouse has a mess, my spouse is bedridden. I'm taking care of my partner. I will never leave my partner. And I've had an affair for the last four years. That's a very different reality reality to to be to be to be to be to be to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. the their, thi. thi, their, thi, their, their, their, I, their, their, I. their, their, their, their, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I. And, I'm, I'm a thi. And, I'm a thi. And, I'm a th. And, I'm a th. And, I'm a th. And, I'm a th. And, I'm a th. And, I'm a th. And, I'm a th. And, I'm a thi. And. That's a very different reality of infidelity.

And to just make it be about people with no conscience and narcissistic people or people who, amongst the many things, have also been unfaithful, doesn't help us understand the complexity of this very multifaceted experience of our humanity. Well, thankfully you wrote a book, because it's one of the most fascinating conversations to have. Thank you so much for the the the the the the the the the the of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of of the of of of of wrote a book because it's one of the most fascinating conversations to have.

Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. The State of Affairs is available now. It'll blow your mind. You can also listen to Esther's podcast. Where should we begin on Audible? Esther Peral, everybody. The Daily Show with Trevor No. the t on YouTube for exclusive content and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount

Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.