The Daily Show: Ears Edition - From the Archives: Masha Gessen - Examining Russia's Autocracy In "The Future Is History"

Episode Date: August 22, 2018

Masha Gessen, author of "The Future Is History," compares the authoritarian behaviors of President Trump and Vladimir Putin, and breaks down the relationship between the two. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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To stream my show, download the Comedy Central app on any device. And don't try to tell me tell me to to the to the show to to to to to the show to to the show to the show to toe. toe. toe. the show the show toe. toe. thoe. thoome. thoomorrow. thoomorrow. thoom. the. the. the. thoome. thoome. thoom. thoom. thoom. thoom. thoom. thoom. thoom. thoom. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th.. th. the. the. the. the. toe. toe. toe. the. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. thea. thea. thea....... And don't try to tell me you don't have any device, because you're literally listening to me on a device right now. There's no excuses. Just download it and watch it. Please welcome, Masher Gesson. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I cannot stop the interview without commenting on your shirts. That is an interesting motif without commenting on your shirts.

That is an interesting motif you have on there. This actually is a shirt from the 2011-2012 protests in Russia. What does that shirt mean? Putin must not wear a princess crown? Yes, Russians against tiaras. It's Putin should not be a monarch. Right. We should have a liberal democracy.

That didn't work so well. Let's let's talk about that. Let's get straight into that idea. Putin should not be a monarch. Do you think in many ways Putin has managed to cement his power as, in effect, a monarch of Russia? Absolutely, there are no elections. There are no elections for Congress, there are no elections. There are no elections for, you know, Congress,

the Russian equivalent of a Congress. And there's a presidential election, but no one can get on the ballot without Putin's personal permission. And no one can campaign. Which seems fair, I mean, you know? He thinks he's the best person for the job. He genuinely does.

He is someone who for a long time has felt, though, that his standing in the world has been diminished. He's someone who has felt for a long time that Russia isn't where it should be in the world. Would you argue that that's all he wants from America and from the EU and all of the powerful nations out there? You know, the kind of leader that he is, basically, an autocrat, I don't th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi I don't thi I don't thi, I don't thi, I don't thi, I don't thi, I don't thi, I thi, I the, the, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thus is thus is thus, thus, thus, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is a thi, is a thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thi, thi, thi, is a ocrat, I don't think there's such a thing as all he wants. He very much wants to be taken seriously. He very much wants to be treated as an equal partner by the United States, but he will always

want more. I mean, it's in the nature of that kind of leadership to want to expand, and it's also he needs to constantly sort of create the illusion of movement in order to be able to mobilize the population. It's interesting that you say the illusion of movements because you've written extensively about Vladimir Putin and understanding authoritarianism looking at what it comes with and what it entails. When you look at Vladimir Putin and you look at Donald Trump, are they the same person? Are they similar or are they aspects of what they're doing that reminds one of the other? They're not actually that similar, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the thi, thi, thi, their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to thi, to thi.i.i. to to to thi.i. thi. thi. toei. their, their, their, their, their, same person? Are they similar? Or are they aspects of what they are doing that reminds one of the other?

They're not actually that similar, right? I mean, emotionally, they're completely different. Trump is raw emotion and Putin is, he prides himself of being so controlled. Now I'm just a picture of like Trump crying watching a movie. Emotion? No, exactly what I mean. But, you know, they come from different histories and everything about them is different. But there are certain things that I think are characteristic of autocrats that after 20 years of covering Putin, I've sort of trained my eyes to see that. Such as?

Like, I have optics. Well, like, for Trump and Putin, one amazing similarity is the way they lie. Which most politicians who sometimes lie, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their toe sometimes lie will want you to come around to their point of view. They want to get you to believe something. These guys lie to assert power. The more absurd what they say is, the more power they have asserted. It's basically saying, you know, I will say whatever I want whenever I want to. I don't understand that. Is them basically having the power power the power the power the power the power the power the power to the power to the power to the power to the power the power to to the power to the power to the power to to to the power to to the power to to to to to to to to to to to their the power to to to to to to to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come to come their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the power the power the power the power the power the power to to to their to to their to the don't understand that. Is that them basically having the power to define reality? Is that what it is? I truly don't understand how they see that as a powerful thing? Because you would assume everyone's looking at them going, but you're lying.

Well, it's two things, actually. One is having the power to define reality, right? It's not, I'm not just president of the country, I'm king of reality. Right. But it's also a bully tactic. I mean, it's like the kid who's stolen your lunchbox and you're saying, you stole my lunchbox and he's holding it. He says, no, I didn't take your lunchbox. Right? And he has the US. Do you feel that this is the right amount of attention that should be paid towards it,

or is there a different way to look at it? As someone who has been an expert at what the Russians want or what's happening with Russia, American relations. How do you think it should be handled as a topic, as an idea? It's important, obviously, and Russian interference interference the election is important, but I would argue that actually what's out in the open is much more important than whatever an investigation might have unearthed at least at this point, right? I mean, we saw Donald Trump say openly that he wants Russia to hack Hillary Clinton's email. Yes.

And so I don't quite understand the excitement when nearly a year later it turns out that Don Jr. said in private and confidence the exact same thing his dad said in public for all the world to hear. But wouldn't you wouldn't some people say, yeah, but that's different. He said it, but then he claimed that he was being sarcastic, whereas with Don Jr. It looked like this was an action, these people were wto collude with the Russians. Right, but I think again we knew that, right? And I think it's important to react to what's out in the open. What's out in the open is Trump's admiration for Putin. What's out in the open and Trump is explicit understanding that political power is what Putin is controlling a country, it's governing a decree, it's basically again establishing an autocracy. There are many people who say Putin and Trump can't be that similar because Putin is oppressive of the LGBTQ community in his country,

but Donald Trump has said that he would be an ally to the very same community. Right, so I actually wrote a piece... I actually wrote a piece a year ago, in I argued that if Trump became president, he would likely reverse progress on LGBTQ rights. And it was a weird thing to do because when I was writing it, I thought, logically I know this to be true. Emotionally I couldn't believe it. I was right, even as I wrote it, I thought, well, it's impossible, you know, it's like, it seems that we have made so much progress. There's no way it can be reversed.

Plus, Trump had said, you know, he had draped himself literally in the rainbow flag. Right. And yet, it was the most recent social change. But I think even more than that, and I think this this was where this was where, what this was, what thua, what, what, thua, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, thi, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, that, that, that, that, that, that, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It, th. It, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thr. It's, thi. thi. thi. that, that, that, that, that, that, that's, that, that, that, that, that, thi.. But I think even more than that, and I think this is where, what he did, a year to the day after I wrote that article with tweeting that transgender people weren't going to be allowed to serve in the military. What he did was something that's emotionally actually goes to the heart of Trumpism, which is very anti-modern. It's this promise of return to this imaginary past

that is so simple that everybody's role is assigned at birth. And you're born to be a carpenter or a farmer, and you will live in the same quarter for the rest of your life. And you are born man or woman, and it can never change. And nothing about you can change. That, I mean, it's an almost mystical kind of past, but it's the kind of past that he promised us. You know, he ran on the promise of an imaginary past.

And I think emotionally sort of saying to Americans, look, you're not going to have to face the possibility of inventing yourself. Right. Is very important for him. So if we we we we we we to to to look to look to look to look to look to look to look to look to look to look to look the the the the the the to look the the to look the to look, I the the to look. to look, I, I to look, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, to to to tooomomom. tooom. thoom. thoom. thoom. thoom. thoom. the thoom. I, the the the the the the the the the the the th. I, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. I. th. I. th. I. I'm, the. the. I'm, the. I'm, ty. tyan. together. together. together. together. together. together. together. together. together. t look at Putin and Trump and their relationship as it stands, I believe the Senate just move the bill forward now to the President's desk, the sanctions on Russia, that seems like it's going to be a major point for Trump, he's going to have to openly say yes, I am completely with the United States or I'm going to deny this, I'm going to veto this

bill and not support the sanctions. Do we know anything about their relationship beyond what we're told in public? Is there anything that we should be looking for as someone who's familiar with the Russians and as someone who's seeing Donald Trump at the same time? So again, I think that we should be looking what's out in the open, right? We should really at all costs try to avoid the kind of conspiracy thinking that a leader like Trump, who is himself a conspiracy theorist, produces, right? You want to mirror it and look for the hidden

secret instead of just staring at the truth that that stars you in the face. But frankly I don't think that Putin that Putin that Putin that Putin that Putin that Putin that Putin that Putin that Putin that Putin that Putin thuuuu thu thu thu their their their their thus is a thus is a their thus is a thus is a thus is a thi is in the face. But frankly, I don't think that Putin is as interested in lifting sanctions as he claims to be. There's a particular set of sanctions that Russians are very interested in lifting. And those are the sanctions opposed by the Magnitsky Act. Yes. And that's when they talk about adoption, they actually talk about those sanctions. Those sanctions are important because they target people personally, they target their assets personally, and

they have really felt the pain. When the country at large feels the pain, that actually is not, it doesn't necessarily hurt Putin, and in a way it's a mobilizing tool for him, because Russia has been sort of gathered around Putin, who who has said that Russia is at war with America has been saying that for basically the last four or five years. Wow, it's a scary story and the shirt that you're wearing makes it lights at the same time. Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate your mind.

The future is history will be available on October 3rd, but you can pre-order now. Mash the guessing everybody. The Daily Show with Covernoa, Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more.

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