The Daily Show: Ears Edition - From the Archives: Robert Sapolsky - May 4, 2017

Episode Date: July 6, 2018

"Behave" author Robert Sapolsky describes how the criminal justice system relies on outdated science and discusses neurological differences between liberals and conservatives. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The smartest way to hire. Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the th. I the th. th. I am. the th. th. I am. the thiiii. th. th. thi. thoing. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi...., John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show, coming out every Thursday. We're going to be talking about the election, earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. Please welcome, Robert Sapolsky.

Welcome to the show, Professor. Thank you. Welcome to the show, Professor. Thank you. What I've always enjoyed about you, and we met a while ago, was that you look like a professor professor. I like that. It was a requirement. Yeah.

You've got a professor face. I enjoy that about you. And that's a time to have you on. Let's talk about this book. Behave, the biology of humans at our best and at our worst. This was 10 years. This book took you 10 years to write. And despite being a pessimist, you have confessed that you've learned what gives you optimism is basically that there is an idea that we can learn about how to better the human condition, how we can get human beings to do the right thing

as opposed to the wrong thing. How did you get to that conclusion? Well, I think the starting point is, you know, we're a miserably violent species, but at the same time, we're also an extraordinarily altruistic and compassionate one. And the main thing that sort of gets at it is it really depends on context. Because in one setting, you fire a gun

and it's like the most appalling act possible and another. It's heroic and self-sacrificial. You put your hand on top of someone else's, and that could be deeply compassionate, or that could be a deep betrayal. Our behavior is incredibly context-dependent. In other words, if you get the contexts right,

we're a whole lot nicer of species than we are an awful lot of the time. What does that mean for humans as a whole, because if we go, we are nice and it depends on the context, does that mean that in some context, Donald Trump is a nice person? No. No.

Oh. Oh, okay. That's, uh, on the average. What is that? On the average. I like that. I like how you're like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, no, not at all. What does that mean for us as people, though, if you're trying to decipher us? Because, I mean, I've read through most of the book, and what's tough to understand is what it means.

You know, some people have arguments that I read all the time where they go, well, you know, some people are genetically predisposed to committing crime. And people always use that as a dog whistle for racism. And they're always thi, th tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. tho- tho- tho- tho- tho-nue thi. tho- tho- tho- tho- tho- tho- tho- tho- tho-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n-n. th. th. th. th. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. thu. to'-n'-n'-n'-n'-s. toge. toge. to-s. tough. they're always going to do. As somebody who studies neuroscience and the biology of it all, does that make any sense? That's right around when you get apoplexy over, like, oh, come on, what century are you functioning in? I mean, in terms of genes and behavior, genes don't cause behaviors. Because genes work incredibly differently in different environments.

And it basically, at the end of the day, winds up being useless to ask what a gene does. What does it do in the particular environments in which it's been studied? What does that mean for the U.S. system? Let's go into the book. You talk about how the criminal justice system, for instance, in America is broken in a way that I've never thought of before and that is the neuroscience of it is broken. What does that mean? Well, sort of the core of the American legal system in terms of thinking about how the brain works is basically if you're so organically impaired by some brain disease that you can't tell the difference between right and wrong, that's a pretty

good mitigating circumstance in the trial. And that's something called the McNaughton rule. Uh-huh. Gold standard, McNaughton was a guy who almost certainly was a paranoid schizophrenic who attempted to kill the Prime Minister of England because of the voices he was hearing in 1840. That's it. That's the neuroscience that the legal system has sort of absorbed since 1840. I mean, in 1840, like people hadn't even figured out test tubes or Bunsen burners yet. That's it. The legal system is based on neuroscience. That's about 170 years old. But what does that mean for today's legal system then?

Well, you're dealing with a system that is medieval in its knowledge of human behavior. I mean, probably the realm where that's most important is sort of issues of volition, where you've got plenty of people who know the difference between right and wrong, yet in a particular moment, a moment of particular arousal, particular stress, particular neurological impairment, nonetheless they do what they know to be is the wrong thing. And that is something, for example, you would see when there's damage to a part of the brain called the frontal cortex. People there with the frontal cortex is like the coolest part of the brain, does self-control and emotional regulation, gratification, postponement,

and if your frontal cortex is damaged, you know the difference between right and wrong, and you say, I'm gonna reach right here because this has the better payoff, and at the last second you go for the wrong one. Were you grabbing the pussy? What were you doing? I didn't know what that, that seems like it, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, and you, and you, and you, you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you, and the the the the the the the the the the the thi, and then, and then, and then, and, and, and, and then, and then, and then, and then, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. threat, th th threat, th threat, th threat, threat, th threaten, threaten, threaten, threaten, threaten, threaten, th pussy, then what were you doing? I didn't know what that, that seems like it. You know what's wrong and then you, you grab for that. Please sir, I'm a professor. Forgive me, grabbing the vagina, I apologize. America is very politically polarized at this point.

And in the book, you talk about how scientifically you've discovered, or you know, the research has shown, that America's at a point where progressives and conservatives actually have brains that are wired differently? Yeah, which either counts is like, duh, you think, you think, or... actually have brains that are wired differently? Yeah, which either counts as like, duh, you think, or is very informative in that it's got nothing to do a lot of the time with sort of the issues that one would think are going on in people's heads when they come up with political stances. Instead, things like, on the average, social conservatives

are made more anxious by novelty than our social progressives. They're made more anxious by ambiguity. They're made more anxious by whatever is coming in the future. On the average, social conservatives are more worried about germs and hygiene. You look in the bathroom of social conservatives versus progressives and the former have more cleaning items in there. So Democrats are like, Feeh-Washing my hands. And conservatives are like, wipe twice.

Why? Before and after. Yes. Sorry, sir. That's, that is such an extreme idea because it's frightening because it makes me then go, are you saying that in America there is a possibility that it will get to a place where people are no longer politically making decisions but rather reacting to who they are as human beings? Well, I kind of think that's always the case. There's just, we're biological organisms. There's biology rumbling along in us all the time. And here's a finding in that realm. This is like one of my favorite studies in the whole book. You take somebody and sit them down and you give them a questionnaire about their political stances.

And if they're sitting in a room with a smelly garbage can, people become more politically conservative about social issues. Doesn't change your politics about economics or the like trade balance with Nepal or any such thing, but if you're kind of having a part of your brain that tells you that something smells kind of unnerving and disgusting, you're more likely to decide that somebody else's lifestyle is not only different, but wrong and disgusting. So is it possible that Republicans in America have a smell around them all the time?

Um, maybe. But what they do have, what the studies show is, on the average, once again, social conservatives have a lower threshold for gag reflexes. Things make them more disgusted than conservatives do. It's actually sort of fascinating how this works neurobiologically, there's this part of the brain called the insula. And you take your basic run-of-the-mill mammal, and if it bites into like some disgusting, toxic food, the insula activates and reflexes, you wretch, you gag,

you spit it out, it's like great, you don't get poisoned by rotten food. Same thing in humans, but now instead, take a human, and have them tell you about something totall tot tot tot tot tot tot tot tot tot all their tot all tot all their you about something totally rotten they did to somebody else once, or tell them about somebody else's appalling rotten act and the insular cortex activates. And in us, it's also evolved to handle moral disgust. And thus, if it's something horrifying enough, we feel sick to our stomach, we feel queasy, we're left with a bad taste in our mouth, we feel soiled by it, we feel washing out damn spot sort of thing, that we have a brain that somehow evolved

to do the literal disgust that's gustatory and discussed that's this metaphorical moral sort, and it has trouble telling them apart because it's only about 50,000 years or so that humans have come up with this bizarre thing of having moral rules that that that that that that th th th th that thii th thi th thi th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi it's only about 50,000 years or so that humans have come up with this bizarre thing of having moral rules that could be violated. This is... I'm just going to go away from this with Republicans, have a smell around them all the time. Thank you so much for being on the show, Professor. Behaze is available now.

Robert Sapowski, everybody. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, the Daily. thia. thia. thia. thiiiiiiiii. th. th now. Robert Sapolsky everybody. The Daily Show with Trevinoa, Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show Weekn, Weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. John Stewart here, unbelievably exciting news.

My new podcast, The Weekly Show. We're going to be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio, on sandwiches. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast.