The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Guest Spotlight: Embracing Cancel Culture | The Harm of Growing Up On Digital Media

Episode Date: May 12, 2024

Jordan Klepper sits down with author Lexi Freiman to unpack how her new book, "The Book of Ayn," helps readers understand narcissism through the lense of satire, and how ego deaths can lead to enlightenment. Plus, NYU professor and author, Jonathan Haidt, discusses his latest book, "The Anxious Generation," and how the shift from outside play to the internet and social media has negatively affected young people's mental health and development.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, the weekly show. It's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting. You'll be saying to yourself, TGID. Thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election. Economics. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth, but in importance it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday?

I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is an author whose latest book is The Book of Aine. Please welcome Lexi Freeman. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome. Well, thanks. Well,

Thank you so much. Lexi. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I love this book. Thank you.

Turing. Do you like searing. Searing. Do you like searing? Yeah. I love searing. You love searing. You want a searing novel, it gets into the shit.

It makes fun a little bit of everything. It reveals something about yourself. I mean, it revealed nothing about me. I don't see myself at any kind of literature. But I love this book. This book starts, it follows somebody who gets canceled. Yes. And then one of her first moves is she finds the writings of Einrand. Yes.

And you describe her initial thoughts about Einrand as the character says, and the main character says, I had always considered her the gateway drug for bad husbands to quit their jobs and start online stock training. Yeah, yeah. True. So, what is it what is compelling about Iran for you and starting a novel like this? I mean, to me, she was, you know, basically the worst person I could write a book about, which really appeal to me. She's so contentious within the culture and but I had recently watched a documentary about her when I started thinking about

this and to be honest I mean her ideas are provocative and difficult but she also just had like a crazy sex life which I found you know she was essentially in an open relationship at the end of her you know in her 60s she was she was having a the the the the the cu, you know, she was essentially in an open relationship at the end of her, you know, in her 60s. She was having an affair with like a man 25 years younger than her. So like, Einran was basically a polyamorous. Like, she had a poly-cule, which I think people sort of like don't know about her, and it kind of destroyed her in the end. She ended up sort of like having a nervous breakdown her and it kind of destroyed her in the end. She ended up sort of like having a nervous breakdown when he was cheating on her.

It kind of undermined her whole philosophy of selfishness in a way. And I found that incredibly interesting and funny. She's just funny. Yeah. If there's one thing that's going to take Iran down, who thought it was to be polyamory? It was polyamory that did it in the end in the end in the end in the end in the end in the end in the end in th in th in th in th in th I I I I I I I I I I I I I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just just just just just th. I just th. th. th. th. I just I just I just th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I just just just just just just just just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just I just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just I th. I th. I th. I th. I just just just just just I just thi thi. I just thi. I just thi. I just thi. I thi. I thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. I just thi. I just th's going to take Einran down, who thought it was going to be Polyamory? It was Polyamory that did it in the end, which I just find delicious. I think it's, it's, it's, it's, I think your book sort of looks at what it means to be selfish. It sort of examines narcissism. Like what, what to you is interesting about the idea of narcissism and if you can't make you can can can can can can can can can can can can can can can can can the the the th you can make it about me. Well, yes, exactly. I mean, you know, I'm not the first person to say this,

but the culture is pretty narcissistic. And so, you know, wanting to write a satire about the culture, you know, you want to write something that's going to speak to all sides. And I kind of felt like, you know, narcissism is also something that speaks to the nature of the artist artist artist artist artist artist artist artist the artist the artist the artist this this this this this this this is this is this is is this is this is this is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this is about is about is about this book is about this is about this is about this is about this is about this is about this is this is this is this is about this is this is about this is about this is about this is about this is about this is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about is about, narcissism is also something that speaks to the nature of the artist, which this book is about, someone who's grappling with this idea of selfishness and wanting to be the best and wanting to be interesting and special and have contrarian opinions. But then there's also this desire to be empathetic and to do good in the world. And it's the kind of the conflict between selfishness and altruism. That th th that th th th that th th th th th th th thism thism th desire to be empathetic and to do good in the world and it's it's the kind of the the conflict between selfishness and altruism that is

Iran's whole philosophy that I feel is kind of distilled in the artistic temperament in the artist's personality that feels like this really interesting kind of paradox to me and narcissism plays into that really beautifully and is and is also funny. It starts to unpack, starts to unpack this idea of cancel culture. Like how do you see that? Is there an upside to cancel culture? I mean yes, sure there's you know things, things, it moves the needle, there's there's cultural change in a way that can be good. And then there's also just, you know, I had a conversation about this with a canceled person,

and the conversation went in the sort of direction of, you know, what being canceled kind of affords you the opportunity to do is to kind of kill your ego and not give a shit anymore about like what people think, and because the ego is all about reputation and trying to kind of kill your ego and not give a shit anymore about what people think. And because the ego is all about reputation and trying to succeed and when that's not a possibility for you anymore, then you get to pursue enlightenment, which I think is the other thing we could all be doing with our lives if we want to do. So what you're saying, in order for me to get enlightened, I have to first get canceled? Is that what I need to do tonight? Maybe, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to hold out to that ego just a little bit longer. Yeah, I think enlightenment is good for, you know, as you get older and, you know, we are all supposed to be sort of shedding our egos and not caring about these things that preoccupy us in our youth. So I feel like getting enlightened is something you could put off for retirement, you know, retirement slash enlightenment. And that seems like a good thing. Yeah, yeah, fuck working at Walmart,

go, go work at enlightenment, right? That's the time, yeah. Yes. Now, this is a satire. I think it's fascinating how you're so specific in this book, and you're able to satirize the left and the right as you move this character through these spaces. I guess I'm curious, I always view satire and the Daily Show, we dabble at it here and there. But more often than me, it seems like satire is a broadsword.

It's rarely, it's a scalpel. Yeah. It seems as if you find complexity. And how do you find complexity in satire? I think you just have to be really specific. You have to be really generous. Like, the reader is smart. You can't try to trick them with easy kind of ideas and jokes. I- You can.

I mean, sometimes it can be very rewarding. Yes. And a lot of people will fall for it. But if you want to kind of, if you want the reader to really come on side with you, and especially with your most transgressive material, then you've got to really not take them for granted. And you've really, I edit the crap out of my books. I go in there, I try to see it from all different sides, and I really try try try try try try to to to to to the to the reader to the reader to the reader to to the to the to the the to to the the the to see, I to see, I to see, to see, I to see, I to see the the to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to see, to the to the the reader the reader the the reader, the the reader, the the reader, I to to to the the the to the the the to the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the the to the to the the the to to the to the to to the the to the to to theeereteer, Iea, toea, toea, toeer to to to to to to to to toea to get as specific as possible you know so that so that the reader feels like I respect their intelligence and I you know I'm I'm thinking of the thing they might argue back with me about and I get specific you know there's a scene in

the book a sex scene where it the character is pretending to do the locker room scene from Jerry McGuire do you remember that fit??? th? th? th? th? th? th? th? that? th? th? th? th? that? th. th th th th that? I I the th. th. th. So th. I that that that th. I that that that that that the? I the the the. that that that that that that that the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theateateateateateateateateateateateateatea theateatea theateatea theateateateateateate. the the to do the locker room scene from Jerry McGuire. Do you remember that fit? Yeah. So, you know, I watched that scene a lot, and I really got very specific about how you might perform certain sexual acts while doing the Jerry Maguire locker scene. So, you know, you just, you do it, you just, you commit and you, and you really go all the

way with it. If obsessing and thinking about sex scenes from movies could make you a great author, I think I would be a great author. I'm curious what you say about the editing, that's all it is, right? I'm curious when you talk about editing too, like, are you, are you having a conversation with yourself as you're writing that with, like, like really really really really really really really, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, really really really really really, the, the, really really really really really really, the, th, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, really, really, really, the, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, the,talk about editing too, like, are you having a conversation with yourself as you're writing that with more extreme points of view than you don't know if you fully believe and you're writing that thing out and then your editing process is a chance to essentially see if it holds water? Exactly, that's it.

I'm always, in a sense, trying to cancel myself as I'm writing. I'm thinking of like, what would someone who thinks the opposite to to to to to to the opposite to the opposite to to the opposite to the opposite to to the opposite like what would someone who thinks the opposite of this say and then what would the counter argument be and like how would I destroy myself if I wanted to? That's how I write. I'm just constantly thinking of these other arguments and in a sense it just makes your writing better and better and in a weird corny way it your writing better and better, and in a weird, corny way, it makes you better, because the more you think about what the other side might think and try to make your argument better, you know, the smarter and the more kind of compassionate

you become. And I think that's why I get away with saying some of the things I say in the book. Because it's done with, you know, I'm not, I th, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm that's thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's their, I their, I their, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the their, the the more, the more, the more, the more, the more, the more, the more, the their, their, their because because it's done with you know I'm not I think I'm respecting these characters and their complexity and their wholeness and understanding why they think what they think and looking for the funny funny parts really and the absurd parts which you know who do you imagine your audience is when you're writing? Oh God I, I think it's just like this mean voice in my own head. You're trying to quiet down the mean voices in your head. Yeah, it's literally just me being as mean as I can to myself.

I don't know, that's probably a few, I think there's a couple of critics I think about a little bit. One's I respect and ones I don't don't. They they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're th. I they're th. I th. I th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I's thi. I's thi. I's just thi. I's just thi. I's just thi. I's just thi. I's just thi. I's just thi. I's just. I's just. I's just. I's just. I's just. I's just. I's just. I's just. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th. I's th's the. T's the. I'm the. I thei's just thei's just thi's just thi's just thi's just thi's just thi's just thi's just thi's just thi's just a couple of critics I think about a little bit, ones I respect and ones I don't. They're in my head, some of my friends who are writers are kind of in my head. But yeah, and yes, definitely, like these people I imagine holding really different opinions to me. I feel like there's like an avatar of that person that's sort of there saying but what about you know this and and and why aren't you thinking about this and I'm like okay okay and then you know you go back in. So I don't know it's a whole there's a whole Parliament of people in there telling me that I'm getting it wrong. Well I would say I think you got it right. I find this book hilarious, fantastic.

Congratulations. I hope at least one of those voices in your head is happy with the product. The book of Ine is available now, Lexi Freeman. We're going to take a quick break. We're right back after that. Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show, it's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting, you'll be saying to yourself, TGID, thank God it's Thursday, we're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election, economics, earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to

be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches and I know that I listed that fourth but in importance it's probably second. I know you have a listed that fourth, but in importance, it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. I guess tonight is a social psychologist who teaches ethical leadership at New York University. He's here to talk about his latest best-selling book, The Anxious Generation. Welcome to the Daily Show. I guess tonight is a social psychologist who teaches ethical leadership at New York University.

He's here to talk about his latest best-selling book, The Anxious Generation. Please welcome Jonathan Height. I see people walking all over Brooklyn holding this book. It's talking about the great rewiring. Talk to me. What is the great rewiring? So, um, something happened to you. to the great rewiring. So, um, something happened this book. It's talking about the Great Rewiring. Talk to me. What is the Great Rewiring? So something happened to young people born after 1995. All of a sudden in the early 2010s, their mental health collapsed. Rates of anxiety and depression skyrocketed, self-harm is up 150% for younger teen girls. Suicide is up up 50%. Something happened in the early 2010s.

And my argument in the book is a tragedy in two acts. The first act is the loss of the play-based childhood. It's what anybody over 40 in this audience had. You were out with your friends after school. There was nobody supervising. You had to learn how to work out conflicts, how to face adversity. So that's what kids have had for hundreds of thousands of years. It's part of being a mammal. You play, you play, you develop skills. We began to crack down on that, to lock kids up in the 90s, to not let them out. So we're restricting what they most need, which is play, from the 90s through the 20s, th th th th th th th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, to to to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, their, their, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to play, to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, th, to, to, th, th, th, their, their, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, 't collapse then. It's actually pretty stable.

Then we get Act 2, which is the arrival of the phone-based childhood. And what that is is, in 2010, everybody had a flip phone. The iPhone had come out, but most teens had a flip phone, no front-facing camera, no social media on the phone, no high-speed data, and by 20, 2015, everyone's got all those other things. Now suddenly everyone has a smartphone, front-facing camera, high-speed internet, social media, especially Instagram on the phone, and almost like someone turned a switch in 2013, girls in America and many of the countries suddenly become very anxious, depressed, and self-harming.

And so that's what the book is about. Something changed between 2010 and 2015, and I'm trying to explain what it is. You're saying in Act 2, they introduce check-off cell phone, and we know what ends up happening after that. You look at sort of the adolescent brain. How dumb and stupid is a 13-year-old brain? I would say not dumb and stupid is a 13-year-old's brain? I would say not dumb and stupid at all.

I would say it's in the process of remodeling, and it's right. It's still in the early phases. So we have, you know, children have a brain, which is actually almost full size. By age six, the brain is almost full size. I'll fact check that. I don't think that's right. I don't think think think think think think thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. It's thi. It's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's thi. It's theeaa. thea. theaauuuuuua. It's in theea. It's in thi. It's in thi. It's in th, continue. You must be right. Yeah, thank you. The rest of childhood is not about growth.

It's about picking which neurons survive and which ones get eliminated. It's all about wiring up. And that happens slowly in childhood. But then, around age 11-12 for girls, puberty starts a little later, a couple years later for boys, and you get this massive, quick rewiring of the brain to sort of lock down into an adult configuration. It starts more in the back of the brain. The prefrontal cortex is the last part to develop. And so around the age of 13, kids emotional areas are rewiring. They have the beginnings of sexual urges and lust.

They're very emotional, passionate, but they don't have the self-control to say, no, I'm not going to spend a fifth hour on..... And, their, their, thia, their, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, thi, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and I's, and then, and then, and their, and somea, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, their, and somea, and, and some, and some, and some, and some, and some, and some, and some, and some, is is is is is their, is their, is... So. So. So. So. And, their, their, the their, the their, the the their, their, the the the their, the the the thi. thi. thi. thi. th th thi. th thi. th thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. their, the no, I'm not going to spend a fifth hour on Tick-Tock. I'm just going to keep going because I can't stop myself. And when does that stop? Because I'm looking for that happening too. And like 47, 48? Like when does that part of my brain close off and I can put the phone to'er. Well, in your case, I really can. It's smart, smart. 25 is when the front of cortex is done, rewired. I'll tell you when that happened. Well, it's interesting how you're talking a lot about not only these phones come in and they change the way kids think and the way society thinks, but you talk about raising a child, an

anti-fragile child. And you make some bold claims, onethis book, one of which is right here, you claim that this merry-go-round playground spinner is the greatest piece of playground equipment ever invented. Defend yourself. Okay. How, how is it, how, first of all, what is it not? What is better?

I mean a teeter-totter, it's just a metaphor of you're up, you're down. You know, it's just, it's what life is all about, you know, work with somebody else, one's up, one's down, there's no way to stay in the middle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, the key... Okay. Well, while I have no, I have no citations to prove my claim. The psychological thing I'm trying to get at there is thrills. This is something I talk a lot about in Chapter 3 that kids need to play, but they especially need risky play.

Kids literally need to face risk. If you don't give them risk, they'll find a way to get it. They'll climb up on walls. They'll skateboard downstairs. Kids need to sort of need to have some actual risk. And so, yes, you're right, a tetatrife. It's really big, and you could come crashing down, there is risk. And that's good. Why you try to hurt these kids? Well, because you have to put kids in a situation where they can get hurt.

Because only then they learn how to not get hurt. The human program of evolution is kids face risk, they're a little scared, they have to be a little scared, they overcome it, and then they're more confident the next time around. And that's the path to adulthood. But we stopped that in the 90s. We said, we said, we said, we said, we're to to to thi. We's. We're thi. We're thi. We're thi. We're thi. We're thi. We're thi. We're thi. to to to to to to to to thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the thi. the. the the. the. theee. theeeeeeeeananananananananananananananananananananananananan. theeeeeeeeeeeeananananananananananananan're going to send you to universities like mine, where you're coming in still not ready for independent living. Now, you take that, and then you also, fast forward to this modern era where kids are obsessed with phones, they're on the internet, they're on social media sites.

Is there an argument, though, that the anti-fragile way in which kids need to, it's not to pull this thing away, that they need to be exposed to the risk that the internet has. I mean, this is the world that they're going to be born into anyway. Shouldn't they be learning and how to navigate that at an early age? In theory, yes, but let's say, sexuality. We want them to learn how to have sex. Does that mean we should th, we th, we th, we th, we th, we th, we th, we, we, we, we, we, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean not, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that, that was, yeah, that was, yeah, theoretically, okay, yes, yes, boy. So I've heard this before. thee, the real world, but you're saying we need to protect them more in the virtual world. Isn't that contradictory?

Not at all. Not at all. Kids, where mammals, kids need to be outplaying, rough housing, putting their arms around each other, touching out in nature. This is the way a lot of us grew up. You play outside. And when you put kids in an environment where everything where everything, where everything, where th and everything, where th and everything, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, their, to, to, their, to, to, their, to, their, their, to, their, to, their, where, where, where, where, where to to their, to, where to, where to, where to, where to, where to, where to, where to, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where, where to to to to to their. their. their. their, where their. their, where, where their. their, where their. their, where their. their, where their, where their, where their. their, where their, where to to to to to to to too, to to to to too, to to to to too, to to to to to their,that. Now the latest stats are around nine hours a day they're on their phone. And a lot of them, it's almost all the time because they're always checking. That blocks out time in nature, time with friends.

Time with friends. Time with friends is down 65% since 2010. Kids need time with friends. And that I think is why as soon as they moved on to social media and the boys on to multiplayer video games, they got so lonely. Loneliness surged along with depression and anxiety. It's interesting. You talk a little bit about in childhood discover mode versus like defensive mode. And even in a world of the arts, I did improv comedy forever and I think the mindset of that is a discovery mindset, right? And so you're constantly looking for something. It was interesting reading this in terms of how to raise a child and to put them in that

open mindset, but it seems remarkably reflective of just how society feels right now. And I don't know if that's partially because of our connection to social media and the anxiety that is there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there. there. But there. And the the their there the. And the. And the. And I thii. And I thi, but thi, thi, thi-and thi-s, thi-and thi-mi-mi-mi-mi-upi-upi-upi-upi-upi-upi-s. And so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and somea-s. And so, and some. And some. And so-s. And so-s. And so-s. And thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi-s. And, thi-s. And, thi-s. And, thi-s-s-s-s-I-I-I-s.I'm-I'm-I'm-I'm-I'm-I'm-I'm-I'm-I'm-s, and, the-s, and, the- media and the anxiety that is there. But do you see parallels there as well that we are inadvertently too in defensive mode because of these devices that we have in our pockets and our hands? Well, right now it does seem like everything is going to hell because it actually is. Oh, that's, okay. It's not just my phone telling me that. But, but it wasn't that way in 2012. So, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, that's, that's, th. th. that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. telling me that. But it wasn't that way. It wasn't that way in 2012. So the fact that this happened in so many countries at the same time,

and a lot of people say, oh well, you know, the global financial crisis, that must be what it was. Like, there were real economic difficulties. Yeah, that was 2008. Why do the numbers not begin going up until 2012-2013 when the economy is getting better and better. So you can't make the claim that things were so terrible in Obama's second term compared to his first that all of a sudden teens, especially teen girls, suddenly fell off a cliff. That just doesn't work. So, you know, if this had all started in 2020, we could say, well, yeah, COVID and all the craziness that's going on, but this started in 2012.

There's no other explanation that anyone's proposed for why it happened in so many countries and hit girls the hardest. It was interesting, you have a chapter in here that looks at also faith. And I'm an atheist. I know you mentioned that you are an atheist as well, but you speak to sort of this god-shaped hole, I tho..... And, th. And, th. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to they they they they they, they, thi. thi, thi-shaped whole, I think it's a Blaze Pascal quote, a God-shaped hole to everybody's heart, every human heart, right? And that this lack of religion is something that is affecting childhood in a way. That again, as an atheist, I always have my dukes up when that comes about. You said you were once, so you earned yourself a pass.

But this lack of religious institutions in this modern media landscape, how do you see that as something something thiiiiiiii something thi something thi something thi something something something something something something something something something something something something something something thi something thi thi thi thi thi religious institutions in this modern media landscape, how do you see that as something that's affecting like a childhood? So the way to think about this as an atheist without getting defensive is good luck. No, I've been working on this professionally for many years. I finally got it down. Let's see it. Okay. Just looking at it descriptively psychologically, psychologically. Religious people are a little happier than non-religious people, that's been true for a long time. Just as married people are happier than non-married people. On average, your mileage may vary.

But people need to be tied in, locked in, in a community. I'm a big fan of Emil Durkheim, the sociologist is my favorite thinker of all time. When we're not tied in, locked in, we're, we're, th in, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thi, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, is, is, is, is toe, is toe, is toe, is toe, is toe, is to, is to, is to, is to, is to, is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the too, and, the the too, the too, too, too, too, isa, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, is we're not tied in locked in, we're free, but that doesn't make us happy. We don't have nothing to push against. We have no sense of meaning. It's like if you try to raise a plant, not in the ground, but just like up in the air, and it just can't be done. And so religious kids are rooted in traditions, faith, rituals, they go to church every Sunday. The Jewish kidsk, thk, thoes thoes thoes thoes, thik, thik, thik, thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to to too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too. We's, too. We's, too. We's, too. We's, too. We's, too. We's, too. We's, too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. toda. toda. too. too. toda. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. to church every Sunday. The Jewish kids have Shabbat. They literally can't use electronics for a day. So they were always happier than the secular kids. But what happens after 2012, it's quite remarkable in all the graphs. The religious kids get a little more anxious and depressed.

The secular kids get much more anxious and depressed. So what I'm saying is, especially if you're an atheist. You're going to have to work much more intentional about rooting your kid in stable social relationships. If you give him an iPad, then he graduates to a phone, and it's all this network, that network, interacting with strangers and weirdos and bots and ayes. That's not a community. That's crazy making. It might just be easier to get them to believe in angels. Then, what, then take away the iPad? I was gonna say that iPad is there.

I do want to... You've written a lot of very interesting books. The book you wrote before this, the Cotillain of the American Mind. You co-wrote, sort of looked at safetyism. It looked at the college landscape. And now what we see on college campuses, these protests are breaking out. I wonder as somebody who look closely at that and the ways in which students kind of move through it, what you see now on these campuses.

Yeah. So, you know, I don't want to comment on the substance of the protest. This is a complicated issue. I respect people on all sides. We all agree, students have a right to protest, constitutionally protected. But two things I see going on is, one is the protest, and this is about Greg Lukianov, my co-author first notice in 2014, that the shouting down of speakers, the activism on campus that was really illiberal, and it was intimidating and it was stopping people from speaking. It was based on arguments about fragility, about my mental health or her mental health. Like, we can't let this person on campus

because it'll be dangerous, it'll be harmful, speech is violence. So that's a new idea that comes in with Gen Z. Because they haven't been given an antifragile childhood, they've been given way too much therapy. They think everything is trauma. So we see that beginning in 2014, 201 2012. It was very new in 2014, 2015. And so the protesters now, I don't know the details. But just one thing I read this morning,

someone sent me a quote from a student at Harvard, where she was in the encampments, and she said, if Harvard cares so goddamn much about my mental health, theaugh, thi's thaun't their mental health. thii, they they they they they they they they they they they they th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. the the the tho. their their their their the the the tho. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their.. their. their. the the the the the the the the the th.. thi. th. thi. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. theean. thean. tha. toda. toda. toda. today. today. today. today. today. today. today. today. today. thae. these because our mental health is at stake. That's something new, and it's just not going to get them very far in political life going forward once they leave campus. It's curious. I read this book, I want to do this right.

How do I helicopter parent my child correctly? Like, what are some tactical things I can take away from this? Well, you just push them out of the helicopter. That's what it is, okay. I was just, sorry, learn how to fly, right? That's that anti-fragile, that all of that all. That's right. For birds, it works. You know, a lot of my books, a lot of my writing is very dark about, things are actually going to hell in a lot of ways.

But this one, we can solve it in a year or two, because the reason it got so bad so quickly is that we're trapped in a, what's called a, it's a social trap, it's a collective action trap. The reason why we all feel we have to give our kid a smartphone by the time their is is is is is is their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their their. their their. their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. Because because because because because their. their. their. Because their. their. Because the reason. Because the reason. Because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because because, time is is time time time time time time time time time time, time, time, time, time, time, their time, the time they're 10 is because everyone else did and your kid says, you know, dad, I'm the only one. I'm being left out. So we're all, you know, we're all doing that. And the reason my students are spending so much time on Tick-Tock, they say is because, well, everyone else is, and I have to keep up. I have to know what's happening. So we're all tra escape, we can escape together. So I've proposed in the book, there's a lot of suggestions, but four norms that will break these collective action traps. First, no smartphone before high school, just clear this out of the lives of elementary and middle school kids.

Send them out, give them a flip phone, a dumb phone, a phone, a phone watch so you can text them. But don't give them the entire internet, their, their, their, the entire, the entire, the entire, the entire, the entire, the entire, the entire, the entire, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone.e, their smartphone.e, their.eck.eck.eck.c.ecklea.ecklea, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, their smartphone, therying to get at them sexually. Like, this is just craziness. So no smartphone till high school. The second is no social media till 16. You know, the things that are sent around on social media, the things they're exposed to, like I just recently learned about the video, a cat in a blender, which was popular while ago. I don't know it. It is exactly exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly what is exactly what is exactly what. It is exactly what. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is that. It is that. It is that. It is that. It is that. It is that. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly. It is exactly hardcore porn animal cruelty beheading videos so you know let's just at least wait till they're 16 before they see that stuff. I was gonna say that's the appropriate age to watch a cat in a blender is that's 16. It's like, ah you get to drive a

car and why don't you check this thing out? Yeah, what I'm after here is not the optimum age, it's what's in a minimum age that we could actually all do together, because that's the key. If we, if most of us do this, we solve the problem. The third norm is phone-free schools. This is the most powerful one that we can do instantly. So if you're watching this and you have kids that go to a school that lets the kids keep the phone in the pocket. Send, well, well, buy, buy, buy, buy, the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, we, their, we, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, so so soo, tho, tho, thoooooooooooooo.e. Soo, is. Soo, thoo. Soo. Soo, their, their, the the principal. No, to go, you know, I have videos, send them a video of my talks on phone-free schools. Every school needs to go phone-free by September. The phones are, they don't just make the kids anxious and lonely. They make them less intelligent. Test scores have been dropping around the world. Once the kids bring a phone in school, they're not listening to the tea.

So get rid of phones and schools. And then the fourth norm is far more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world. We have to, so it's not, this is not just about let's take away, take away. It's, let's give them a real childhood. The kind of childhood that us older people, the kind that we can give them is a real human childhood. And if we do it together, we can get this done in the next year or two. I love it.

Just give your kids some space, a beer and a bag of glass, and it should be okay. It's a fascinating read and an important one. The Anxious Generation is available now. to the show. Explore more shows from the Daily Show Podcast Universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus.

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