The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Guest Spotlight: Why Govt. Deficit Is a Good Thing | Are Algorithms Controlling Our Taste?

Episode Date: April 28, 2024

Bestselling author and professor, Stephanie Kelton, joins Jordan Klepper and Ronny Chieng to break down the flexibilities of government finances despite being in a deficit and how the Modern Money Theory can help change how we interpret government spending. Also, Jordan and Ronny sit down with Kyle Chayka, New Yorker staff writer and author of "Filterworld: How Algorithms Flattened Culture," to explain how the social media algorithms affect our taste and culture in real life.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. Our guest tonight is a professor of economics and public policy and the author of the best-selling book The Deficit Myth. She's featured in a new documentary, Finding the Money. Please welcome, Stephanie Kelton. Stephanie, it's a fascinating documentary. Stephanie, welcome. Stephanie, welcome.

Stephanie, welcome. Stephanie, it's a fascinating documentary. I will say, you are setting out, correct me if I'm wrong, to fundamentally change how people see money. Yeah. That's a big ask. And we got about seven minutes. Yeah. I think a place to start is with MMT, right? MMT. If you can help us define what MMT is, and I think what the narrative you're hoping to get across with MMT.

What is the new economic narrative? It's no longer pull yourself up by your bootstraps. What is MMT telling us? So in economics is widely known as the dismal science, right? Because it's... You've got to get better branding. Well, that's what MMT is trying to do, better branding. Because, you know, in the dismal science, it's all about scarcity. And we can never have the things that we want, because there's always this really intrusive problem, which is how are you going to pay for it? Where is the money the money going going going the money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money money the money the money the money? the money. the money. the money. the money. thi. thi. thi? I is going? I is thi? I's, thi? I's, thiolu. thi. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. I. I is, to be. I. I. I. I is, to be. I. I. I. I. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. to. to money going to come from? And the problem is that we treat money like just any other scarce good or service in the economy. And what

MMT is doing is saying, hold on a second, we're not on a gold standard anymore. We have this thing called a Fiat currency and it does make people nervous because a Fiat currency sort of opens up space and it's kind of like, wait is money real after all? And so MMT is an economic framework that tries to have an honest conversation, that talks to people like grown-ups, not insulting people by telling them that you have to treat the government's budget

like a household budget. And speaking down to people, we want to be honest about the monetary system we have today, the capacities of the government to spend when you have a fiat currency and you're not tying your currency to gold and promising to convert into something that you could run out of like physical gold. So we're opening up a conversation where there are still limits and you still have to make choices, but we can have an adult conversation about how the government can actually operate its budget when it doesn't face the same kinds of constraints that a household or a business faces.

I mean, I guess by that, I think the big headline with this as well is the way we look at what the deficit means, correct? Yeah. Like, I hear deficit, you hear it in the news, you MMT, a monetary, modern monetary theory, is deficit good, correct? Every deficit is good for someone in purely financial terms, and I'll tell you why. Because you're right. We use this word and it sounds inherently like something's gone wrong. If somebody's in deficit, there's a problem, right? You don't want to turn on the sporting game and find the announcer saying that your team is going to have to come

back and overcome a seven-run deficit if they're going to win the game. It's always a bad thing, right? But actually, if you think about what the government deficit is, it's just the difference. It's just the difference between two numbers. That's all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all all is all all all all, I guess we'll find that. Is everything fine? Does everything fine? It's fine in the sense that it's just a benign mathematical, like it's the difference between two numbers. It's not even higher order math, right? It's just how many dollars the government spends into the economy each year versus

how many they take back out mostly through taxation. So simple math, if they spend $100 into the economy and they only take $90 back out, we label it a government deficit. Somebody records it as a minus 10 on the government's ledger. What we forget to do is to recognize if they put 100 in and only take 90 out, somebody gets 10. So the government's deficit is matched or mirrored by a financial surplus in some other part of the economy. Wait, hang on. So did you guys meet backstage or something? Because what the hell?

What is MMT? What's MMT? What does MMT stand for? You have it? So it's modern monetary theory and so again the currency we're not on a gold standard we're in the modern Fiat age. Okay what's Fiat? What's Fiat? What is a good car that you get or what? What you're walking around with if you've got some of this stuff in your wallet is a tax credit.

So those dollar bills that we're walking around with we think of that as money right and we can use it to trade. their. their. th. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. thi. the. the. the. the. the. the. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thi. thooooooooooooooo. the. the money, right? And we can use it to transact. We can use it to buy and sell things. We can use it to make purchases of goods and services. And money is good. It's good to have, generally, and it's really good to have when you got to pay your taxes, because this is what the government expects us to hand over at the end of the day and payment of that... let's do this. What about that government deficit that you just mentioned, right? And I said every government deficit is good for someone. Why? Because it's just a financial deposit into some other part of the economy. The question is good for whom

and good for what? The government can increase its deficit to do things like feed hungry kids, tackle the climate crisis, fixed-crumbling infrastructure, all of those things are ways to use a government deficit that might have desirable results for people and for the economy. So money is good. Deficit is good. I'm with you so far. So what's the bad?

What's the problem here? A big part of the problem is the way that we've been taught to thi these things, to try to stamp out deficits, to reduce them, to view them as inherently dangerous. They're not inherently dangerous. And as I just said, they can be used to help us accomplish important goals in the economy. Okay. So, for example, if I go to Caesar's palace and I borrow like 200 dollars in my credit card, I put it on red and I lose everything. That's good. That's bad. Wait, why is that bad then? But doesn't the casino... It's good for the casino? And also, don't go to Caesar's Palace, that's a little gosh.

First it's bad, maybe go to MGM or just something, but financially that's bad for him. But that's bad for you, but the point is to try try try try try try to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the point is to try to figure out and to wrap our heads around what it is we're actually capable of doing because we're always told that we can't tackle big problems that we face. We can't deal with housing problems or education or climate infrastructure, social security and Medicare always come up and everybody always says the same thing. We can't afford it. We have this deficit, or we have this national debt. Where are you going to find the money to do these things? And so MMT comes in and says, look, it's not about finding the money.

The money is created when the government spends. Congress authorizes the spending, and if the votes are there, the money. the thing you have the the the thoes thoes thoes thoes tho things. things. things. tho tho thi thin thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. the the. the. the. the. thin. the the. the. the. the. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thoes the comes the comes comes comes comes comes comes comes comes comes comes the. the. the. the. the comes comes comes comes comes comes comes comes thin. thin. thin. thin. the. the. the. the comes the. theee.m. theane.m. thee. theee. theee. the. the. the comes the comes a free lunch, there are no constraints, there are no limits, there are limits. And the limit is inflation. You can't run out of money, but you can run out of things to buy. I mean, so this is, correct me if I'm wrong, but if I'm going nutshell here, your essential argument is we're not bartering back and forth like this is an avatar for gold in our pocket. The government makes money. They can decide how much money goes out there, right? You pay taxes. They don't need our taxes to fix big problems. They can make big money.

It's on them to figure out how to spend it and put it into the economy in a way they can get big things done. And then the boundary that they have to act underneath, correct? Well done. Well done. Wait, what? Are you? Okay. Did you read? Now she's a published author and created a movie and still assholes won't fucking do the research. But here's the pushback. Here's the pushback. Here's the pushback. So I'm memorizing the pushback. Here's the pushback. Here's the pushback. So everyone on memorizing the Wikipedia page.

But here is the argument. Here's what's so compelling. And Ronnie is a great, he's a useful idiot in this. And people are scared. I don't know a lot about money. And I think the narratives are on money teach me to be afraid of it. It's something that we shouldn't talk about because I don't understand the underpinnings of it. And I think what it's compelling about your argument is we can and half, like World War II, have figured out ways in which to create money and fix big problems. It's it's we almost need a giant, we need a big thing to focus on to get those problems done, correct? To get the narrative around it. Like I think... Well it helps and COVID and COVID and COVID and COVID and COVID and COVID and COVID and COVID and COVID and COVID, and COVID, and COVID, and COVID, and COVID, and COVID, and COVID, the to. And, to. to. to. to. the, to, the, to, the, to, the, the, to, to, the, the, the, the, the the to be, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, and COVID was that big thing for a period of time,

where governments around the world suddenly stopped asking the question, how are we going to pay for it, and what are we going to do about this deficit? And they just pulled out, I'll use the phrase, the money bazooka, right? Countries realized that they were going to have you know, we spent some five trillion dollars just in the first 12 months or so of the pandemic. And I wish that climate was going to be that catalyzing event that kind of forces everybody to have that wake up moment and realize that we've been focusing on the wrong sorts of problems that we really can tackle the problem of climate change. We can afford it. We got to watch out for inflation. OK, sure. So you're saying that MMT can be used to solve issues that we claim that we have no money

for by basically the government making money, because that's where money comes from. Right? And you're saying, but doesn't that increase inflation inherently if you just keep making money? Well no, I mean, the government has run deficits most of my life, with the exception of four years during the Clinton administration. The government's budget has been in deficit. Look at a country like Japan. They've had large deficits every single year for the last 30 years or so and no inflation to show for it. And we hardly had any inflation.

Flation didn't really become a problem until COVID-in. came along and started breaking supply chains and then wars in Ukraine and food and energy prices and so forth. But you can have large and persistent deficits without having an inflation problem. It's when those deficits collide against the backdrop of constraints in the real economy where the economy can't resource, can't keep up and satisfy that demand. That's what happened in the COVID pandemic, and in World War II. So if it happened in World War II and it happened

during the COVID pandemic where inflation got out of control, where we had basically unlimited spending on one single issue, World War II or COVID, then how can you, you know, what's the evidence that MMT will work then. If we had two real examples. I'm just joking. I've no idea what I just said, to be honest. Someone just briefed me on that and I just repeated it. So, the evidence that it works is that MMT is a description of how government finance always operates, whether you have a budget deficit, a budget surplus or a balanced budget. MMT is at work, providing the explanation. So it isn't about ramping up deficits and running large chronic deficits. You can have a good healthy economy in some cases with a relatively small deficit or maybe

even with a balanced budget. It depends on a lot of other things. So the evidence that it works is that it's a description. And we think a more honest and accurate description of the monetary system we have and how governments actually pay their bills. Now, as a, I guess, in theory, how this this this this this this thi thiak thiak thiak thiak thiak thiak thiak thiak thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th and how governments actually pay their bills. Now, as a, I guess, in theory, how this takes greater effect and affects our lives and gets big things done. Green New Deal, that was a big part of the way in which it would be funded.

We need to start looking at money like through an MMT lens, correct? That's also presupposes that you do have this paradigm shift that we start to see as a country, as a collective, we start to see the usage of money differently. But getting people to have a cohesive change of mind and the way they see the world seems like a impossibility from the experiences I've had out on the road and at Thanksgiving. Well, look, like, how much of like, do we live in a culture where we can experience a paradigm shift?, thive, thiiii. that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, that, th, that, th, that's, th, that's, that's, that's, th, th, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's that's that's that, the that, the that, look. Like, how much of like, do we live in a culture where we can experience a paradigm shift,

or is that in and of itself an impossibility? I hope so. I mean, Tick-Tock is there. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We're going to get better. No, but it's stuff like this, right? It's conversations like these that allow people to hear a different different different different I think you know look with the what the last couple of years what we've done in

some cases on a bipartisan basis and in some cases just with Democrats but you had the Inflation Reduction Act which is the largest climate bill we've ever had in the history of our country we have the Chips and Sciences Act which big investments in actual productive capacity here in the US and the bipartisan infrastructure bill, which is repairing roads and bridges and you know taking care of our infrastructure. So those are three big packages which I would argue are just an extension in many ways of what the administration started doing with the COVID spending and it's just another example of the government

being able to mobilize the financial wherewithal to commit to spending money that it doesn't have because the money comes from the willingness of Congress to say yes. When Congress says yes and writes those bills, the legislation is the set of instructions that goes to the government's bank, the Federal Reserve, and it says we've committed to making these payments, your job as our fiscal agent, is to carry out all of the payments we've authorized on behalf of the U.S. Treasury. And that is just how government finance works. It's no more complicated than that. But we complicate it with stories about taxes and borrowing and debt and all the rest of it. But at the end of the day, the spending is really easy to carry out. Well, you see, you're a very smart person, you're saying things very calmly.

And everything seems like it's fine. So how do we get to, what would you, what can people walk away with like if they want to like not be sad? When they look at the, when they look at the deficit. This is always his question. How do I not be sad? What's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's like, what's like, what's like, what's like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, like, like, like sad? What's the, what's the, what's the, what's like the practical application? Because you're, you're, well, I guess we just, the three of us sat down here and we decided that the deficit is fine and we can, well, okay then. So, what's the next step?

Why would we actually, like say we believe in MMT or yeah, MMT. What, what's the next thing that, I mean, is belief enough? Do I just have to pray to MMT and then it? What has to happen next? Or who else? What has to happen next is that the people that we elect to represent us have have to go in there and take decisions, and take decisions, and the the tak decisions, and the decisions, and the decisions, and the decisions, and their, and their, and to their, and their, and to their, and their, to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to to their, to to to to to their, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th..e, th.e, thiiiiiiii.e, thi.e, thi.e, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, toea., toea, their, their, their, their power that they have called the power of the purse that they've got to take decisions about whether to fund programs, whether to cut programs, not on the belief that they ought to be operating their budget like household, but when these decisions come up about

social security and Medicare or continuing with the Inflation Reduction Act and staying, you know, in the game on climate change and going even beyond what that legislation did. What I think gives me hope anyway is that we've demonstrated what we're capable of and that we can build on it and not revert back to old ways of thinking about austerity and the need to to reduce deficits because that when that's when you hammer your economy, that's when people have a lost decade, that's when you hammer your economy. That's when people have a lost decade. That's when all of a sudden, you know, the prosperity that is within reach starts to slip

through our fingers. So when the IRS comes from my taxes, I just got to tell them like, y'all, deficit is good. Don't worry about it. You need to, you know what you need to do? You need to take some THC or some DMT and let the MMT just wash over you. Let the paradigm shift come to you, Ronnie, Jay. Yeah, I think I'm in it right now. I think you're in it. Well, finding the money will be released in select theaters nationwide and on demand,

May 3rd. For more information, go to find out. Stephanie Kelton. We're going to take a quick break. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash zip. Zip recruiter's smart technology identifies

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It's been said that nigh skies finish last. But is that really true? I'm Tim Harford, host of The Cautionary Tales podcast, and I'm exploring that very question. Join me for my new mini series on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to T to T to Tah to Tah to Tah to Tah to Tahe to Tahe to Tahe to Tahe to Tahe to Ta to Ta to Ta to Ta the the the to Ta the the the the to the the the the the the the the the the new miniseries on the Art of Fairness. We'll travel from New York to Tahiti to India on a quest to learn how to succeed without being a jerk. We'll examine stories of villains undone by their villainy and monstrous self-devaring

egos, and we'll delve into the extraordinary power of decency. We'll face mutiny on the vast Pacific Ocean, blaze a trail with a pioneering skyscraper, and dare to confront a formidable empire. The art of fairness on cautionary tales. Listen on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show, it's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting. You'll be saying to yourself, TGID, thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things

that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election economics, earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches and I know that I listed that fourth but in importance it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go but how many of them come out on Thursday I mean talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart wherever you get your podcast. Our guest tonight is a staff writer

in New York whose latest book is called Filterworks, How Algorithms Flatten Culture. Please welcome, Carl, Kyle. I like this book. I like this book. I like this book. I like this book, I'll tell you why. I've been in grumpy asshole about culture for years now, and this book validates so many of the things I've been telling other people. Tell me, how am I right? How do algorithms flattened culture? How has everything gotten worse in the past decade or something? I like seeing the sticky notes by the way. I feel like this is a demonstration. I'm going to grill you on all this shit. Please, it's like a quiz for me. But yeah, I think we're surrounded by these machines right now, which are algorithmic recommendations.

And everything from your email, to your Facebook feed, to your text messages, to a TikTok video, it's all sorted for you. So I think that kind of affects culture in two ways, where as consumers we become more passive, we're like more accustomed to just getting stuff handed to us that already agrees with our viewpoint and like our tastes. And then on the other side, the creators of culture kind of have to mold their work to fit these algorithmic platforms. So thi to figure out what works on Instagram, what works on TikTok, and then like adapt their work to that rather than just doing what they might want to do on their own. I actually, you mentioned here, which I think is a good example of it, and part of

what you ruminate on is this generic coffee shop. Tell me about that. Yeah, it was this kind of coffee shop design that I started encountering just traveling around as a journalist, probably around 2015, 2016. And I think everyone can recognize it, especially in New York if you've been to almost any cafe around here. There's white subway tile on the wall, there's reclaimed wood furniture, there's hanging Edison bulbs with those like exposed wires. There's succulents and little ceramic jars. There's a giant neon sign that says I love coffee. Absolutely, yeah like avocado toast and script or whatever. And I think the reason why you find those everywhere, like whether you're in Beijing or Berlin or Los Angeles or Bali or wherever you go is because our tastes have kind of been homogenized by platforms like Instagram. So there's like a particular aesthetic

that works for Instagram, and everyone puts it out there, and then everyone else on the platform slowly copies that. And I think that's true for a coffee shop owner, which I interviewed a bunch of for the book, but it's also true of musicians, or a chef making a kind of thii on Instagram, or a producer making a beat for TikTok. So I think we're all kind of getting funneled into these weird tracks that are set. And when I visit coffee shops like that,

overseas or around America, I feel at home. Yeah. It's familiar to me. No, it's true. But I mean, the point is like, I hate social media as much as anybody. Everyone can testify to this. I f-h-hate social media. I testify. I testify. But when we'll talk about algorithms pushing tastes, I mean just to be devil's Africa a little bit like we've had aesthetics become popular before computers existed. So how much of this is

algorithms and how much of this is algorithms? How much of it is just humans kind of having this, like the meta game of human art aesthetics, kind of finding a balance to what everyone kind of likes? We're always chasing each other, right? Like culture is a process of copying stuff and finding a style that works in the mainstream. But I think now, we're just really in these funnels that are directing us in like a bigger and faster thiii thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, kind thi, kind thi, kind thi, kind of thi, like, kind of thi, kind of thi, kind of thi, kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind of kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind, kind, kind kind, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the mainstream, but I think now we're just really in these funnels that are directing us in like a bigger and faster way toward each other.

Like we're all being shoved into these set tracks much more than we were. But I guess I'm saying how much of this is algorithms fall and how much of this is we are just humans up, this is, humans are bad, bad, bad, and dumb and we have bad and dumb and we have bad taste and eventually the machines, they copy us. I think it's the humans have bad habits. Like we are, we want to be passive, we want to be lazy, we don't want to get too far out of our comfort zones. And these algorithmic platforms make it so easy to not do that. Like we don't have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the to the to the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tomorrow, tomorrow, theaugh, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, don't have to go, we don't have to see things we don't like, we don't have to listen to music that's unusual for us. So I think it like

enables those innate tendencies and that makes us more boring. It like makes us more boring consumers, it makes culture kind of more generic overall. And I worry that we like can't get out of that laseysiness, like we try that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, the that, that, their, that, their, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, like, like, like, like, like, like, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, th, th, th, th, th, th, like, like, like, like, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, the, the, thei, thei, thei, their, their, thin, their, thin, their, thin, thin, thin, their, thin, thin, thin, thin, ena, ena, ena, ena, ena, ena, thin, in because of the platforms. I think a lot about like, our taste is part of how we define who we are, how we interact with the world, right? And I think, for me, the stuff that I have grown to fall in love with, you find it before the internet. I'm that old. But like, I fell in love, like, my, the cool high school friend who recommends you thr-a' long commute to school and so you play it and you sit with it and it becomes interesting and part of your identity you find it like you sort of have to meet a moment with a part of

taste to find it and for it to actually stick to you and what I worry about with algorithms like are we are we executing serendipity? Yeah I think so in a way because everything is pre-sorted to appeal to us. Like you are not seeing something that's totally outside of your frame of reference. So in that case, when your friend in high school recommends an album to you, there's this like passion to that, there's like a creativity to that. They really enjoy it so they want to to you, it and give it some patience and try to understand what they meant by giving it to you. Whereas when an algorithmic feed gives you something, there's no feeling there. Like there's no creativity, there's no enjoyment of that piece of culture. It's just that enough data suggested to a sorting machine

that you would like this bit of stuff. And like that is kind of depressing to me as someone who enjoys like art and music. Your data likes this, have more, eat, sup, at the bistro lights. Look at the bistro lights. Sure, you guys are both Brooklyn, hipsters. Again, you want some human to come and tell you what's good. But like, what about the situations when we go on Instagram or insert social media, whatever, and then they recommend something to buy like a piece of clothing or, or, let's not go to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. I th. I thi. thi. th. thi. th. th. thi. And then they recommend something to buy, like a piece of clothing or, or, or, that's not going to what I buy, but like, uh, yeah. I was running my head through all the stuff I could say on TV, but, uh, they recommend something and you go, I actually like

this. I actually do like, I hate to admit it, but the algorithm got me. Yeah, judged the algorithm got me. I bought this things, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, you, uh, you, you, you, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, or, th, or, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, uh, uh, th. th. th. that, uh, uh, that, that, that, that, that, that, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, that, uh, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. That, th. That, th. That, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's, the algorithm got me yeah judge to my wife my algorithm the algorithm got me I bought this thing you know whatever is chewing gum that comes from a tree in grease or whatever it was like but and I actually enjoy it so like you know we're arguing against algorithms here but how much of this is you know beneficial yeah not everybody has a cool high school friend most people that maybe should be replaced by an okay algorithm. Yeah. No, I feel like sometimes the algorithms judge us too well. Like they know exactly what we're going to look at.

They know what niche products we're gonna want to buy like the resin gum or like weird natural wine or whatever. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. We all have those things that are like,, you, the algorithm says that I must like this, therefore I like it. And so I think it just like guides us towards those things. And we feel an anxiety from being perceived too well in a way. It's like, oh no, the machine knows me.

And I think that inspires bad feelings as well. In the book I write about algorithm, the algorithm, thia thian thian thian thian thian thian thian thian thian thian thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi thi, thi, and thi thi thi thi thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and we thi, and we thi thi thi thi, and we thi, and we thi, and we thi, and we thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thii thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi term for basically the lack of power and agency you have in relation to the algorithm. You don't know how it works. You don't know why you're getting recommended resin gum from Greece. Right. You just know that it's like you have been evaluated and this is directed at you. But now I know that we actually might be friends because you both get the same for the for the Greek gum thing. Yeah, you don't know what tell you. Yeah, what the cool kids of this? What weird pervertive stuff to you guys that he buys?

That's what I want to know. So they say, if politics is downstream from culture and we all are moving into this flattened culture, what does this mean from 30,000-foot view to what it does to our politics. Yeah, I think it affects everything. It affects culture, it affects geography, cities, also politics. And in culture, algorithms kind of funnel everyone toward a generic average where there's just this style that works for everyone. But I think it's slightly different in politics. It's sorting people into these very extreme groups that are very far from each other.

So like in the US maybe there's two big buckets. Like you are either a Democrat or a Republican, and there is one way to be those things. There's no internal diversity. It's hard to have different opinions at the same time. It's just like you've been sorted into this bucket or this bucket, and then you've experienced algorithms are flattening the culture when it's bad for us, meaning everyone's seeing the same thing? But when it comes to politics, and maybe it would be better if we could grow in the same direction, it's making us more divided. Why is the algorithm

doing the worst possible things? I mean, some... It's totally true. It's like opposing forces, in a way. I mean, I think culture is like a thing that many people experience collectively. Like it's a thing that we can all enjoy it together in a way. Sometimes. Yeah. And in like a Taylor Swift context, everyone can like Taylor Swift. Yes. So if there's a Taylor Swift. And we do.

We do. We do. Very clear. So if we could find the Taylor Swift for politics, that would be amazing. But I think something... I think it's Taylor Swift. There we go, okay, we figured it out. The algorithmic solution to politics is Taylor Swift. But yeah, I mean, maybe it's just that there can be no one solution to such opposing

viewpoints. Not even computers can figure it out. Until we have the president that is the algorithm, unfortunately. Right. How old is that algorithm? Yes. Well, none of them are that old. This has only been a decade or two. You know what?

It sounds like a decent option that a lot of people could get behind. Filter World is available now. Kyle Jacob. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. John Stewart here. Unbelievably exciting news.

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