The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Honoring The History & Legacy of Black Veterans| Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: May 28, 2023

In honor of Memorial Day, we observe the contributions of Black service members like The Harlem Hellfighters and the Tuskegee Airmen. In this episode, host Roy Wood Jr. chats with the cofounder of the Black Veterans Project, Richard Brookshire and the author of Half American: The Epic Story of African Americans Fighting World War II at Home and Abroad, Matthew F. Delmont. They discuss the racism and segregation Black soldiers have had to face in the military, how Black Veterans were excluded from GI Bill benefits, and how the GI Bill Restoration Act would be a step toward repairing the damage done to Black Veterans and their families. Original Air Date: November 8, 2022. Beyond the Scenes is a podcast from The Daily Show. Listen to new episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts, or watch at YouTube.com/TheDaily Show See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Roywood Jr. And in honor of Veterans Day we're talking about a CP Time segment that honored the contributions of the black soldier. Rode the clip. In World War I, the 369th Infantry Regiment fought so fiercely that the Germans called them the Harlem Hell Fighters. And when a German says you know how to whoop ass, that means something. The Great War also provided many black fighters with their first chance to travel abroad. And once in France, our brothers and arms, the arms, their arms, and their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their fighters with their first chance to travel abroad. And once in France, our brothers and arms found something they had never seen before.

Respectful white people. It was so enjoyable in Europe that a lot of black soldiers didn't come back, which I understand. I went to Belgium for two days, ended up staying the whole summer with Helga. And she knew how to iron that Belgian waffle. Oh, my waffles. I was there for three months. Then my wife found out. I'm sorry, baby. Please, please let me come home. Today I'm joined by the co-founder of the Black Veterans Project and former infantry combat medic and U.S. Army veteran, Richard Brookshire. Richard, how you doing? I'm doing good.

I'm really happy to be here. I'm excited. Well, good to have you here. I'll tell you my veterans day story about the parade in high school. the today's today, the epic story of of history at Dartmouth College, an author of the new book, Half American, the epic story of African Americans fighting World War II at home and abroad. Matthew F. Delmont, Matthew, thank you for joining us. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here, right? Oh, well, a pleasure to have you

all, and let's get into this discussion. You know, the contributions of veterans I think are often minimized and remixed in our society and done so even more for black veterans. Matthew, I'd like to start with you. Your book is titled Half American. Talk to us a little bit about how you settled on the title of that book and what the experience was like for black service members in the military during that time where, you know, the racism and segregation was just as entrenched within our armed forces as it was in just general American society. So the title of the book,

Half American, comes from a letter that a man named James Thompson wrote, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. Thompson writes a letter to the Pittsburgh Courier, which was the largest and most influential black newspaper at the time. What Thompson asked is, should I sacrifice my life to live half-American? Is the America I know worth defending? What he's saying is what it means for him and other black Americans to get drafted into a military that is entirely racially segregated? The Army is segregated. It only particularly allows black Americans to serve in supply and logistical roles.

By and large, they're not allowed to participate in combat. In the Navy, Black Americans are only allowed to volunteer and be drafted into the Messman branch where they essentially will wait on and serve white officers. And at the start of the war, black Americans are allowed to the patriotism and service of black Americans. They want to be able to do everything they can to help protect their country, to serve the United States at this time of war. But the military doesn't do what they can to acknowledge their service and to take advantage of the skills that black Americans can bring to the military effort. Once those troops get drafted into the military, what they find is thatthat conditions on those bases are just as bad, if not worse, than they are in the surrounding towns and cities in the country.

Their stories abound of black troops being sent to these army camps in the South, and they're fearing for their lives. They get attacked by towns people. They get verbally abused and physically harassed by white officers. They're called racial epitophe. get so bad that they're actually anxious and excited about the prospect of being able to deploy to battlefronts in Europe at the Pacific because they think it's going to be safer there than it is in Mississippi, Alabama or Georgia. And they didn't start letting black troops in until after the war start. You know how racist you got to be? It's like no, you can't die for America. we'll do it first. All right, all, all, all, all, they they they they they they they they they's, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin't thi. thin't thin't thin't thin't tho. tho. thin' is th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thin. And, thin. And, thin. And, thin. thin. thin. And, thin. thin. And, thin. And, thin. And, th ass. Well, come on over here, black folks. All right, we're going to go and let you in just look.

I'm not sure if that was the exact memo or how it was discussed, but it's definitely an interesting dichotomy in the sense that you want to have pride for something that is also, you want to have pride in a place that is also, you know, mistreating you. Richard as a veteran when you enlisted how much was the thought of the inequities that still troubled America? How much did that play a role in you choosing to enlist or even being hesitant to enlist initially? Yeah, I mean I think like the first thing I can think of is I joined shortly after Obama was elected and so it was like this momentum like we have a black, you you know commander-in, the first black president.

So maybe there was some naivete. I was also young and young people tend to join. You're talking about even in World War II, the predominant, like the majority of folks that were joining were like 19 and 21 is your young people, right? So I think I was naive around around the the the the the the the the the the the to to to toe. naive around the inequities. And my story kind of bears out kind of all of the lessons learned over the last decade since I went to Afghanistan. And talking with other black soldiers,

was there any sense of community? Or is it kind of every man for himself when you're dealing with inequities within the armed services? I think it depends on where you end up getting stationed. When I was in training, I think that, you know, we kind of congregated based off of race. I just naturally, folks kind of gravitated to the folks that they were kind of wanting to be around. And then I ended up being stationed at a small base in Germany, a former Nazi base, actually, a bomb holder Germany, where it was predominantly white. I had only a few black soldiers that I could th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, the, the, th. And, th. And, the, thi, th. And, th. And, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, naturally, naturally, naturally, naturally, naturally, naturally, naturally, naturally, the, naturally, naturally, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, they, they, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, build community with. And that was actually probably the beginning of the awakening, right? Because I was

kind of thrust from going up, I was a student at Morehouse about a year and a half before, and then suddenly I dropped out of Morehouse and found myself at the middle of Bomb Holder Germany around a bunch of Midwestern white boys, and it was just, it was different. I remember that first like six months, that first six months going into the going into work and like the kinds of conversations that these folks were like engaging in like, you know, they was just kind of spewing the things that they were hearing all Fox News. It was happening back in 2010, right, right, right after Obama had got elected and all those things. So, um, it was discouraging. I remember coming to work and kind of like, th, like, like, like, th, th, like, th, th, the, th, the, the, th, the, the, the, th, th, th, like, the, the, the, th, like, the, the, like, the, the, the, like, the, like, like, like, their, their, their, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their, their, their, their,. So it was discouraging. I remember coming to work and kind of like just, it was always kind of an awakening every single day with how ignorant folks could be, how prejudicial folks would be how sexist and homophobic folk could be, let alone how racist folk could be. So after about six months, I just,

I stopped engaging in the dialogue, because it was exhausting and I had to prepare to go to to to to to to to to to to to work to to to to to to work to to the to the the the the to work, the the the in the dialogue because it was exhausting and I had to prepare to go to war, right? And with these same people, right? So I felt like I was just kind of a losing battle to try to feel like I could change their minds or all they needed was one more conversation for me or one more one more book to read or one more book recommendation to, you know, edify themselves. And, you know, these folks weren't really interested in learning. How do you have, like, upon enlisting, how do you possess a sense of pride in something that is not fixed within that organization? Like, if we just go with the Harlem Hell Fighters, right? All right.

Harlem Hellfighters, they go over to France during World War I. They whip a lot of the medals. And then they come home home and an and an and an and their and their and their and their and their and their and their and their and they're they're their they're their they're they whip a lot of ass, they get a lot of medals, and then they come home and they can't even be in their own parade for the homecoming to even celebrate that you made it back safely to America. And then you look at groups like the Tuskegee Airmen who had a lot of their accomplishments overlooked and it was a long time before we really, in my opinion, properly gave those brothers their flowers. So how much did you identify with the black person's relationship with the military of the past and reconcile that with the present? And you know, why are these black service members?

Why are they so important to military? Why are they so important to military? I think what's powerful about black military is that black military? I think that's true the the their their their their their their tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thi thi that's their their thi their that is their their that, thoes. I thooma. I's thate. I's thi. I's thooma. I's thi. I's thi. I's their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their, their their their their, their their their, their, their, their thi. I'm thi. I'm that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thii. that thi. thi. th same time. They've been fighting for equality within the military, but they also been trying to fight to make America actually up to its ideals. I think that's true in World War I with the Harm Hell Fights. It's true in World War II, it's true in World War II, it's true in World War II, and the tuskiarmen and all of, still has racial discrimination as a key part of it.

It is still facing a lot of the challenges with regards to racism that are fully meshed in the culture of the military. And so I think it's powerful about the fact that black Americans have continued to serve the country is that they're truly demanding the country be a better version of itself. They are trying to to trying to bring into being a better version of the United States. And Richard, same question to you. How did knowing those stories of the journey of black people through the military, you know, how much did you feel a connection to that, you know, early on? I think that it really actually happened after I'd gotten out. I came, I came back, finished my last three years in the military while I was kind of matriculating. The beginning of

the Black Lives Matter movement was kind of proliferating in the country. I was kind of struggling to reconcile my service. I wasn't connected to a lot of vets, right? like even fewer vets that served now than they did back then. So there wasn't connected to a lot of vets, right? Like even fewer vets that serve now than they did back then, so there wasn't a lot of community to discourse with or engage with. And really what was the impetus to my project was the desire to kind of better understand the inequities that were that, that, so I'll start with, you know, unfortunately, I had a suicide attempt about a year after getting out of the military. Like I said, I was really, really struggling to reconcile my service and, you know, PTSD that I had had and just didn't feel like I was getting the support that I needed.

And when I was in the psych ward, we didn't have TVs, we didn't have anything to engage, so I had people bringing me books. And I read a book called when Affirmative Action was White, a book by Ira Katz-Nelson, a professor out of Columbia, and there are two chapters in it that focused on the GI Bill and essentially this is wide social welfare program right after World War II that enabled many people to gain access to zero via home, so the ability to go to school. And the first time that I really sat with the history that black folk were mostly locked out of that. So shortly after getting out the psych ward,

I went to an event because I was unemployed. And the event was for unemployed vets. And it just struck me that the majority of that room was black. And so for me, it was like, you know, there's this history lives matter movement, the ascension of Trump is happening, trying to figure out how I can be of utility and reconcile my service. And then I'm seeing like, you know, get to Googling for a couple of weeks trying to do research and seeing that there's really no, this history isn't connected to the present day, and how can we be having a racial justice conversation as a country, and then kind of talking about to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the to to the to the to to the the to the to be a the to be a the the the the the the to be a to be a to be a to to be a, to the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the th.. I. And, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, the the the the the the the the the the not to be happening in this institution, which historically has always had a race problem. And then kind of talking about some of my experiences as well, I was beginning to connect the

dots in like this invisible kind of issue of race still permeating in the military and wanting to do a project that would really kind of tie the historical threat for people and make things plain and simple. And so that's what we've really been trying to do for the last five years. Let's talk a little bit about that for a second, because your time in the Army, you know, after that, you wrote a New York Times article a couple years ago entitled, Serving in the Army as a queer black man,

open my eyes to racism in America. Now, within your time enlisted, were you openly queer? And if not, what type of layers that add to being within the military? I came out when I was 16. And I think part of even my experiences at Morehouse was trying to reconcile what that meant, right, to be a young black man and to be gay. So I came in with a good sense of myself, and I think that's partly why I survived the military. And then, but I had, I came in at the height of Don't Ask Don't Tell.

I couldn't be out, you know, in the military and it was something that I was aware of going into it. But it took about two years between training and that first year of being at my duty station getting ready for war, and you know, ultimately, you can only hide so much right and so I was facing a lot of sexual harassment a lot of folks it kind of rumors were floating in the way in which people were engaging with me and on top of I think like some racist based actions and like just some things that a lot of black folk face when they're like significantly diminished or like they're not we're not we're not mentored in the same ways we're kind of set up for failure in a lot of ways so I definitely think like me being gay played a role up into that point but right before I want an appointment I was like you know I might go to Afghanistan and die so I'm

not about to go there without folks you know the people that I'm working with directly knowing that you know I'm I'm gay and I'm not something that I'm a a a a a that I'm a that I'm that I'm not that I'm not that I'm not that I'm not that I'm not that I'm a th you th out to my direct unit, the folks that I was working with, specifically the physicians because I was a combat medic and my other medics, and they were largely supportive, right? But I was also, it just so happened that a policy had passed where they don't ask don't tell was still in place, but it was under review, and so they weren't kicking anybody actively out, right? And it's just that that window of time. And then the policy actually changed on my birthday in Afghanistan about nine months into my deployment.

Did you, here's a, here's a, here's a personal question, but I feel compelled to ask it. By dealing with discrimination from sexual orientation, and then dealing with discrimination, well, sexual orientation rumors, and, and thi, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and thi, and the, and the, and the, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, the, just, just, they, just, just, they, just, the, they, the, with discrimination from sexual orientation and then dealing with discrimination, well sexual orientation rumors, and then dealing with racial discrimination, you are combat medic. Did you regret signing up for the one MOS that requires you to maybe help somebody that might have been talking shit to you the one MOS that requires you to maybe help somebody that might have been talking shit to you the day before on base. I never resented being a combat medic because I think I got to I've never had a moment where you're like these are the people I got to save if they get shot no I mean I would say one of the the most

racist people that I engage with was actually a physician that was in charge of all of us, right? Oh, I love. So, like, you know, some Tuskegee experiment. I remember Martin Luther King Day and I'm a more house man. So I'm talking about Martin Luther King's on TV. I want to give him a shoutout. And it was playing in our aid station. And he was like, turn that troublemaker off. And he literally like what he said, right? And he said that, it was like something out of a movie.

I was like, what is happening? Because he started talking about how Martin Luther came down there. He was older, older gentleman. He came down to, I think he was from Alabama and said, it came down and made all thrown, and my mammy, I, I, I, I, I, and tham, and that, and I, and I, and I, that, and I, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, was, th... It was, that, that, that, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, th. It was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was, was... th. th. thi. thi. t t t t t t today, was like, t today, th th thi. th thi. th th th th thi. th th th th th all this trouble and my mammy got all worked up and he was talking he basically he had a mammy I never met someone who had one but he had gracious yeah it was just like something like that right but he here's somebody in charge of like the career trajectory of these soldiers let alone the kinds of engagements that we might have with soldiers of color, queer folks whatever local Afghan populations and and what have you. So yeah, that opened my eyes, but I never regret it being a combat medic. At the end of the day, helping people is helping people.

So, yeah. You ain't, you ain't never seen somebody that was on the battlefield messed up and you just walk up to talk that shit you was talking at the police. Never had the opportunity. Nah. Nah. Nah. Let me just stop right there. Matthew, before we go to the break, you know, everybody talks about the struggles of the black man, but if the black man got it bad on a Monday and the Tuesday, then the black woman got it bad all week.

Who were some of the other unsung black military heroes in the military during that time, particularly black women? Let's take a moment to educate people on, you know, just not only what was necessarily going on on the front lines with black men, but also with black women in all support capacities if not combat. So within the military, there were thousands of black women that participated in the women's army corps. The largest group was a group called the 68th Central Postal Directive Battalion that was under the command of Major Charity Adams.

And this group's job, once I got sent to England in 1944, was to distribute mail throughout the European is progressing. And he had a lot of guys with common names, so they would be trying to determine which Bob Jones was receiving this mail or which Tom Johnson was receiving this mail. But they developed these systems to get mail distributed throughout the European theater, and ended up moving about 65,000 pieces of mail per day throughout the European theater. It was really important for true morale. to to to to to to to to to to tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, tho, tho, tho, the, and the, and the, the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, thrown, thrown, thrown, throwne, throooooooooooooooooooooooooome, and thean, and throoooe, and the, the, th really important for troop morale. Both black and white soldiers talked about the importance of receiving mail from home in terms of morale. But those black women had to face the kind of racism and sexism they

would have encountered in the United States as well. And so in terms of where they could stay when they're in England, they had to fight to get access to hotels, fight to get access to the Red Cross aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid aid the the the the the the the the the the to to the to to to to to to to the the the to to ofism and sex and sex and sex and sex and sexism and sexism and sexism and sexism and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the racism and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and sex and the the the the the the mail throughout the European theater. On the home front, there are more than a million black Americans participated in defense industries and 600,000 of them were black women and for them, and for them the war industry has really opened up important job opportunities that just weren't there before the war. By and large, black women had opportunities outside the home only either in agricultural work or being domestic servants for white families. And so a lot of these black women war workers essentially they were like black rosy the riveters. They said the war is what got them out of white people's

kitchens. And so those again were were monthly and week battles to get access to these really well-paying and important war jobs. So black women's work was crucial to winning the war. Well, after the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the break the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, th. th. th. th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the. the the the the thea. thea. the thea. the the thea. the thea. thea. thooooooooooooo crucial to winning the war. Well, after the break, I want to talk a little bit about, you know, we've talked a little bit about what the military was like and we've gotten a little bit of what it was like specifically for you, but I want to talk about what the military is doing right now to try and end some of this discrimination and what other veterans are dealing with once they're on the other side of their military service. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter.

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Try it for free at this exclusive web address. Zip Recruiter.com slash zip recruiter. The smartest way to hire. Beyond the scenes way to hire. Beyond the scenes, we are back. We are talking about what it means to be black in the military, black man in the military, black and queer LGBTQIA plus in the military, what it means to be a black woman in the military. We were talking, you know, during the break there, Richard, just a little bit also, not only how black women were dealing with so many issues

and trying to help the military during that time, but it seems that a lot of the issues that affected men also intersected with them as well. Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that a lot people don't know are that black women, under the policies that don't ask, don't tell, were disproportionately affected. There's a new study that is getting ready to be published that shows that women, broadly, or in the last five years, have been up to four to five times, more likely to get a dishonorable discharge, meaning they're getting into the military, the militaryto their benefits. There's still a wide variety of issue around sexual assault in the military,

and the military hasn't done a good job of really forthrightly addressing that issue. And so you have all not only just discrimination, kind of rearing its ugly head, but all of these other issues and ways in which black women can and are marginalized that are often invisible to folks. Yeah, let's stay right there in that pocket, Matthew, because I've always, joke isn't the right word, but I've always said on stage that, you know something going wrong in the military

because they got they own court and they own jail. What other job you know got they own jail? I'm like, damn, is everybody breaking the rules? So how does the legacy of racism and white supremacy, how does that still haunt our military today? I think there's a through line in terms of how criminal justice works in the military, how it's worked historically, and how it works in the present.

In the World War II time period, to pick up on what Richard was just saying, that black Americans were treated unfairly was what they called blue discharges. These were written on blue paper, but they essentially kicked people out of the military without having to go through the court martial process for black troops who they considered to be troublemakers. And so the two primary populations that received these discharges were gay and lesbian troops, because that wasn't allowed during against the kind of racist treatment they're receiving on base would receive one of these discharges. And that was a less than honorable discharge, which meant that they had no access to the benefits that they had earned and worked for during the war.

Fast forward into the present, and a lot of the same issues remain with regards to how military justice is carried out along lines of race. And this is where you see where you th is where you th is where you th is where you this is where you is where you is where you is where you is where this is where you is where this is where this is where this is where you is where this is where this is where this is where you is where you is where this is where this is where th is where th is where th is where is where is where thi is where thi is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where is where th is where th is where th is where th is where th is where th is where th is where th is where th. th. th is where th is where th. th is where th. th. th is where thi is where thi is where thi is where thi is where thi is where thi is where thi is where thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the military has progressed, and I think there have been significant aspects of progress from the World War II era to the present. It's still an institution that has a lot of the existing racial prejudices of the nation, that in many ways it can't not have those when you're bringing together this wide cross-section of demographics, race, gender, sexuality, from all across the country. If you get people in power who have pre-existing racial biases, that's going to lead to disparate and unequal treatment

for people of color in particular once they're in the military, and they see it reflected in the kind of legal punishments and court marshals and other less honorable discharges that the black troops continue to get today. We were talking at work about the NFL and black NFL, right? And how that's a problem in terms of having more black coaches means that there has to be changes at the top higher than the level of coach. So that's GM, team president, owner, or league officials, right?

So when you talk about eliminating racism that's structural and institutional, how much of this falls on people, let's just say at the Pentagon level to stop with, like, like, like, like, like, if, like, like, if, like, like, like, if, like, if, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, the, th, the, th, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, there, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thin, theean, toooing, tooing, thean, thean, thean, thean, their, their, their, just say at the Pentagon level to start with it. Like if you look at like say January 6 right January 6, I think it was like over 20 people that were active military. Not like you got radicalized later after you like. No, you was just at base yesterday. I'll be right back lieutenant. I got a run down to DC for some on January. I'll be right back. Yeah, like, you. the the the. the. the. the. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the be right back, Lieutenant, I gotta run down to D.C. for something on January. I'll be right back. Like, how do you adjudicate that? How do you punish that? How do you regulate that when it's so ingrained, when you have monuments named after all of these Confederate generals? Like, how do you start? And I hear you breathing already. Like, how do you change any of this culture?

Where does the solution even begin? It's complex, right? I think that where the focus of the project that I've been carrying out over the course of last few years has been, is looking at the history first. And so, you know, kind of focus almost exclusively on veteran affairs issues, like these, the harms that have been done.

When it comes to the military itself, like race is a factor from recruitment to retirement, and there are multi-faceted prongs when you have conversations about how to address those things, right? So let's just take recruitment for instance. We know based off of a geospatial map study that was done on the city of San Diego, the majority of recruitment that was happening in black neighborhoods were for service-oriented roles, right? And low-skill, low-age really roles. And they were recruiting officers from white affluent neighborhoods, right? So we haven't been able to extrapolate that study outward,

to see what's happening in other cities, but we can kind of take that as a model, right? We know that just within the military itself has a broken, equal employment opportunity system, right? The ways in which folks can make complaints and adjudicate complaints without fear of retribution, the statistics show that folks don't trust that process, trust folks don't trust that system, right? So you're getting funneled into the military oftentimes with only access to service the service, the service, the service, the service, to, to, the service, to, to, to, the service, to, to, the to, to, to, the, the, to, to, to, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, and, the, the, the, their, their, their, and, and, their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I I I I.......a, I.a, I.a, I.a, I.a, I.a, I.a, I.a, I.a, I.a, I.a, Ia, Ia, Ia, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,a, theymea,a,a,a,a,a, theymea,a,a,a,a,a, the,a, is access to kind of service-oriented roles. You have the academies really that these military academies which more of the top brass end up kind of being funneled through, have a race issue really with recruitment and the ways in

which they target black populations to attend those schools. So that ends up having impact 30 or 40 years down the line when these people become the heads and leaders of the military. And then you have the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tha the the tha tha.a tha.a tha their their tha.a.a.a.a. I their their their their their their their.aqqqqqqqqqqqqq.aq.aq.aq.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. their. I's. I'm, their, their, their, their.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. when these people become the heads and leaders of the military. And then you have a white nationalist problem in the country, you know, the Pentagon doesn't want to be forthright and honest about, right, and the ways in which they tackle it, because there is a very uncomfortable discourse around what does that mean around politics? Because what I found when the ways in which people were being radicalized, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I th, and I, and I th, and I, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, theean, thin, thean, thean, thean, threate an threat, thean, threat, the, thean, their, people were being radicalized and I and I tell this story because it's an important one like I served on a former Nazi based in Germany, right? It was not uncommon to see people walking around with mine comp and reading it like for leisure right just white boys. Just white out in the open like sports illustrated. Yes, yes. And there were folks that were just, you know, and they would say oh, I'm just interested because. Not like a book on tape like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the the folks that were just, you know, and they would say, oh, I'm just interested because. Not like a book on tape, nothing, not like a Kindle.

I mean, for all I know, they had, they had all those things. But yeah, bringing it to work and reading it, it was normal, right? Fast forward four years, I'm getting out. I'm going to work training at the same place at the same time. I never, I don't believe I've met this person, but we ended up being stationed at a bomb holder, which is a very small base in Germany at the same time in the same unit, deploying to Afghanistan at the same time, getting out of the military at the same time, you know, fast for three th.... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I don't thi, I don't thi, I don't th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I, I th. I th. I, I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm thin. I don't, I don't thr. I don't theeeeeeean. I don't theeean. theeeeeean. I don't theeeeee right? And to me, that's when everything started to, I started to connect the dots more, that like, you know, the radicalization that's happening in the military, conspiracy theories were rampant in the military.

Like, I literally would be talking to commanders and they'd be talking about like, oh, FEMA camps are real and like, you know, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that, that, that, that's, that's, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they. I, they. I, th. I's, they. I's, they. I's, th. I's, th. I's, th. I's, th. I's, threat. I's, th. I's, that's, th. entrusted with thousands of, you know, the leadership of thousands of people, potentially hundreds of people. So, you know, it's just, yeah, radicalization in the army is really, I think, the big issue. But I look at like, something, someone like Bishop Garrison, he got appointed last year, an appointment, an appointment, the first of its kind to report directly to the Secretary of Defense. And he lasted less than a year in that position. A black man who was appointed to oversee, you know, the issues around race, the issues around diversity and inclusion. And within a year, he's being kind of pushed out.

You know, I, you know, it's, there's no easy solution, but there has to be a willingness to have the conversation. And that's something something that's something that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the the the the thi the thi thi thi thi toe toe toe toe toe toe toe toeeeee toeeeeee toeeeee toeee toeee thi. thi. thi thi thi there has to be a willingness to have the conversation, and that's something that's continuously pushed off, because race steel plays a major role, right? A major role for folks, and they want to keep that racial hierarchy, and there are folks in the military that abide by that. There's deep historical roots for this as well. So there were countless stories of black troops during the Confederate flag, either alongside or instead of the Stars and Stripes, once they took over these towns in France. And you just have to stop and imagine, like, what did that feel like? What did that look like to these black troops to see their fellow soldiers or their white countrymen praised the Confederate flag?

And they absolutely knew what they were doing. Everyone understood that that was a signal for slavery and for a racial hierarchy that could be traced back to the Jim Crow South. Part of what was important about the military finally to segregate in 1948 is they recognized that racism and segregation made the military a less effective fighting force. That during the war, segregation was stupid. It made no sense strategically, right? You were doing everything in duplicate. They were segregating blood from white and black blood donors, even though there's no

scientific basis to do that. It's not because of political correctness or anything else that led them to desegregate. It was due to intense political pressure from black activists, but also to the fact that military leaders finally identified that, you know, we can take better advantage of the manpower of the country if we actually are integrated. They were turning away black Americans with PhDs, with language skills, with degrees from Harvard because they didn't want to have black Americans serving in certain units. And so I think to Richard's point, there's been a lot of backtracking in the last couple

decades that one things that comes out of Vietnam is you have, once the military becomes an all volunteer force, you start the the military, the military, the military, the military, the military, the military, the military, the military, the, to to to to volunteer force, you start to see vastly more numbers of black Americans and Latinx Americans participate in the military. You see many more minorities in the military in the military, you see many more minorities in the military. But you also see the development of a very intense and increasingly public, white nationalist strain in the military. And it's hard for the military to have both those things coexist. You can't ask people of color to serve disproportionately to the percentage of the population while also still cultivating and not doing

anything to counteract an intense white nationalist thread in the military. I think if there's any hope for where the military might go in the future, it's trying to recognize that it's really mission critical for the military to be a space where racism isn't part of the day-to-day culture, that you want this to be a space where we're all Americans who choose to serve can do so proudly. I want to say one more thing. Racism is a spectrum, right? You have white nationalists, but you also have the everyday person who might have racial biases, but the way that they move, the way that they engage compounds over time and affects a black person's career potentially in the military, right? So when we have these conversations about racism, it's often like, it's kind of very easily goes to the white nationalist conversation when like the everyday racial bias and the attempts to

try to intervene in that with education are being intervened, right, or not being taken seriously. And I think what happened at West Point last year was a perfect example when there was a class being stood up to essentially kind of engage with the concepts of CR, critical race theory, it ended up on the congressional floor, right, with like members decrying that like how dare we try to see to teach the former leaders of our military about the history of race in this country

and the systemic systemic s systemic s s s s s s s s s just wanted to put that in the conversation about racism, racism being a spectrum. On the other side of your military career, when you retire, and we've kind of graced a surface a little bit, but let's dig in on this. What are some of the inequities and the types of benefits black veterans have received throughout history? My uncle is a the the th, th, th, th, th, is is th, th, is My uncle is an army veteran and God bless him this man and spent about the last five, six years trying to prove that he has what they don't think he has and he keeps getting sent to every single VA doctor that ain't got an appointment and it ain't get well you had to get a second opinion, get to do this paper. It's just a long-ass dance. And not only what are the inequities that black veterans have received through our history, but what impact has that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the their th. their their their their th. their their their th. th. th. th. their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. It's thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the inequities that black veterans have received through our history, but what impact has that had on veterans' access to housing and education and health care and just general economic opportunities? Historically, it's had a huge impact. So the GI Bill is perhaps the most important piece of

legislation in our nation's history. It's what enabled a whole generation of white veterans to come back and enter the middle class to be able to raise themselves up and raise their families up. their their their their their their their their their their their to their to their their their their their to their their their their their to to to their to to to to to to their their to to to to to to to to to their. their. to their. to, their. to, to come back and enter the middle class to be able to raise themselves up and raise their families up because it provided access to low interest, VA-backed home mortgages, provided access to college tuition benefits, loans to be able to start businesses and a range of health care benefits and other benefits as well. But the way that legislation was written, it was largely authored by Southern Democratic politicians who were segregationists, and so they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they the the the the the the way the way the way the way the way their their the. the. thii. the. the, the, the, the, thi. thi. the, to to to to to to to to to the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. the, the, the. the. thea. thea tea. tea. togea. to to to to to to to togea. to thaea. tha. tha sure that that legislation was distributed not at the federal level, but at the state and local level, which meant that these local VA officials could discriminate discriminate once black veterans came into these local offices.

And so we have countless stories from 1946, 47 of black veterans going to their local branches and just getting the runaround, either being denied outright or being steered into vocational programs. And what they're trying to do is go to a four-year college. They're being told that they can't use benefits for certain reasons. And in terms of mortgages, probably the largest portion of the benefits, all across the country, black veterans find it impossible to get mortgages to live in the majority of neighborhoods. It's true in New York, New Jersey, it's true in California. That has a dire long-term impact in terms of the racial wealth gap. There's a group at Brandeis University called the Institute for Economic and Racial Equity that's been running some studies to try to calculate what the long-term impact this is.

And what they found is that black veterans from the over a lifetime, that was about $100,000 per veteran. Now, you can imagine what that means in terms of what black veterans from World War II could pass on to their families. When you look at the, what should be very upsetting numbers in terms of the racial tap in the country, a huge part of that can be traced back to the GI Bill. And so historically, this is really really really really really of wealth. The way their policy was written, we moved in the other direction. So the GI Bill opened up gaps between veterans that shouldn't have been there based on their service. Yeah, and to piggyback off that, I think we, Matthew and I had a discussion last week, and

he had mentioned that, and I never really they weren't able to go to white schools with the GI Bill, but there wasn't infrastructure at HPCs to absorb the number of black vets that were returning. And so what you had was not only this stripping of generation of wealth that could be passed down through home loans, but also the disappearance of a professional class that could have arise from, you know, access to college education in math so really for the first time. And I think that has a direct correlation to de-industrialization, what we see in inner cities, throughout the 50s and 60s and 70s, and urban plight, it has a direct correlation because that generational wealth compounded, the ability to be able to educate yourself out of circumstance, compounded. And then I like to start around Vietnam, like, you know, go from World War II to Vietnam, the nation, the nation, the nation, the nation, the nation, to to to the nation, to to to to th and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, and black, I like to start around Vietnam, like, you know, go from World War II to Vietnam,

the nation's first fully integrated war, and black vets were disproportionately being kicked out the military continuously, over 100,000 of them kicked out without access to their benefits. We've been talking predominantly about the GI Bill, right, which is a huge social welfare program, very important. But disability compensation is another avenue of income in inthe thousands of dollars, potentially a month, that folks are not getting access to. And we were able to prove that there was a statistically significant disparity with respect to the denial rates that black vets were were facing, and one of which were that over a five-year period from 2015 to 2020, black veterans were almost 30% less likely to get disability for something like PTSD. And that's th th th th th th th the th the th th th th th th, th, th, the th, th, th, th, th, in th, in th, in th, in th, in th, in thousa, in thousa, in thousan, in thousan, in thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand thousand, potentially, potentially, in tho, potentially, potentially, in thous, in th, in th, th, th, potentially, th, th, potentially, th, th, potentially, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thous, thous, thous, thous, thousa, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, thousand, veterans were almost 30% less likely to get disability

for something like PTSD. And that's just in the most recent conflict, right? So we're going to the same wars and dealing with, like all the things that you just said, discrimination and lack of access to genuine opportunity, and that has a psychological effect as well. But these things aren't being taken serious when you go to the VA to talk, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to, to, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, so.I.I.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A.A go to the VA to talk about like I have PTSD and it might look different from a white vet or maybe it does look the same as a white vet but I'm still being denied this disability compensation. And so the case that's getting prepared now is actually a gentleman who served in Vietnam is actually a gentleman who served in Vietnam, by tours of Vietnam, got kicked out his last month in his second tour.

He went from the age of 19 to 21, serving two tours in the Vietnam. Like I said, he was from New Haven. And a white superior called him the end word. He got in a physical altercation. 40 years later, he still doesn't have access to his benefits. Five years ago in 2015 he was a or six years ago he was able to win a landmark case with Yale that gave anyone who had been discharged a dishonorable discharge or other honorable discharge who had post-traumatic stress disorder or traumatic brain injury access to their

benefits. What that means in real time is that they compensated him for three years of the back pay that they owed him. But they still owe him from all the pay that he didn't get all the way from 1971. Right. So now he is levying a suit against the VA. And his brother is suing on behalf of their deceased father who was a World War II veteran and didn't get access to the GI Bill. Because another thing that we don't talk about is service is also intergenerational inter generational generational generational the same families often being, you know,

being stripped of access to these benefits and then it being compounded over time. And so, yeah. Richard, you were fortunate in a sense that your mother took you in after your suicide attempt and was there to be an integral part in your growth and helping you out of the depression and helping you out of the depression and helping you back into the world of employment. There are a lot of veterans that do not have that type of care and concern within their family tree.

How has the VA failed black veterans in the scope of just mental health? Like at any point before your suicide attempt, did you ever feel like, well, well, well, that, the, thi, thi tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thi thi to be to be thi to be to be thi to be to be to be to be to be to be thi to be thi to be thi thi thi to be the to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the you the their their their their their to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be their their their their their their the. their theate. their theate. their theate. their their to be their their their their to be health. Like at any point before your suicide attempt, did you ever feel like, well, maybe I should just go to the VA and then a voice in your head going, nah, they ain't gonna be able to do shit for me? Was there ever hesitancy that you go to the VA, that you seek out mental health services before the suicide at teat the attempt? You know, in your stability at that ti tha tha tha th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th attempt, the first fissure, you know, in your stability at that time? I did.

I didn't know that I had PTSD, but I went to the VA, I sat down with a psychologist there and was basically told that I had something called adjustment disorder, which I don't know what that is, but I'm talked to people since. They were like, well, that's a form of PTSD, but a lot a lot, that's a lot, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I. I. I, I, I. I. I. I, I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I, I. I. I's, I's, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a. I'm a. I'm a. I'm a. I'm not, t. I'm not, toda. I'm not, t today. I didn't today oh, well, we can't really help. You don't have a lot of resources or whatever. I just felt sidelined. It took so much courage to try to go and actually have the conversation because it, you know, people are proud. I'm a proud person and I didn't want to admit that I had something wrong, especially being a combat medic because I got to see, I'm gonna go figure it out. But I went and was dismissed and then found myself, even in what led to my suicide attempt was then they started to, they gave me an antidepressant, which, in the long

time I found that I was bipolar, but they gave me an antidepressant that made it to my attempt. So it was just like mismanagement kind of all around because the things that I was expressing and try to make plain wasn't being taken seriously. I was just, you know, so yeah, and I think by way of how the VA has failed, I mean I think it has not wanted to address the fact that it has a race issue. There was a survey of VA employees, and about about, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, th and a, th and a, th and a, th and a, th and a, th and a, th and a, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, thi, thi, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, is a, their, their, their, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, is, the, is, is a, two or three years ago. And of them, something upwards of 70% said that they dealt with racism or they saw discrimination on their everyday jobs, right, of the employees that were actually surveyed. What does that mean for the black vets that have to actually go and get, get, and get service

there. And a story that actually happened recently this last year, there was a older black veteran that went to the VA, was basically seeking help for PTSD, and they'd forgotten about him. He was there for hours. He ended up killing himself inside the VA, right? And so these are just kind of anecdotal conversations about just systemic failures because, you know, our pain isn't seen as the same or what our experiences aren't as validated. There's not enough cultural competency within the VA. And I don't know there are efforts to try to change that, but there are actors, just like there are actors that are entrenched within the Department of Defense that just don't see race as an issue, or purposely just want to continue to have the disparities continue to ravage. And if we hadn't done the study, the study, the study, the study, the study, the study, the study, the study, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, thee, thee, thee, thin, thin, tho, thin, their, their, thin, tho, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is they. And, thr-a, togu. And, togu. And, togu. And, togu. togu. And, togu. And, is, their, is, is, is their, is, is't done the study with Yale and put pressure on, I don't know, I don't know if they would have even said, hey, we should address the fact that there's a 30%

disparity with PTSD. I don't know. Matthew, what role does the American public play in contributing positively into the lives of veterans? Because like we know we are in America, right? You know, we celebrate the veteran and we love that veteran and then you go to the football game, everybody give it up for the veteran. Look at that veteran over there sitting there and join the game and we clap for that veteran. We pride ourselves on honoring folks who risked their lives on the battlefield, but throughout history and we know what's going on in the present day, but throughout history, what has been the experience of black veterans returning home? So the experience of Black World War II veterans returning home was that they were openly

disrespected in the communities they came back to. They were on the wrong side of the GI Bill policy, by and large. They were openly harassed by a lot of white veterans as soon as they got back on ships being directed white white veterans this way, Negro veterans that way, and oftentimes they didn't use the plight term there. There's hearing racial habitats as soon as they get off, as soon as they get off a boat, they're being directed to not march their troops through white towns. They're have to take a circuitous path that only goes through black towns. And there. And there. And there. And there. And there their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their there is there is there is there is there is there is there's there's there's there's there is there is there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there there is there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there. there is. There. There's is. There's is not. There's not there's not there's not there's there's not. There's their tho. There's to to tho. to the. there's the. there's there's there's there's there's there's there's there's. Some were still wearing their military uniforms because too many white citizens thought that these black veterans were going to be leaders in the civil rights movement after the war.

And black veterans were. They came back and they demanded equal rights. They demanded the kind of freedom and democracy they're fighting for abroad. But the kind of I think thinking of the present, what does it mean for the American public to actually support veterans and troops is to think about what it means to support individual veterans and troops. That I think too often you find yourself at a supporting event,

everyone will clap for the veterans when they stand up, which is great in the theory, but then when push comes to shove and money and money money money money money money money money money to to to to the to to the to be allocated and money to be allocated to be allocated to be allocated and money to be allocated and money to be allocated and money the to be allocated and money to be allocated and the actual lives of veterans to make sure that they have the resources they need to to reenter American society and to be able to thrive professionally. That's where we need the American public to stand up. It's not enough to say that one supports the troops or one supports veterans at a supporting event. You're kind of generically supporting the category then. What you need to do is support the actual living people in your communities who have served this country. After the break, I want to talk solutions and Richard, I want to dig a little bit more

into your program and what you are doing to help the veteran, as my uncle calls it, veterans. I think that's how black people say, vet, VETC, VETC, VETVETS. This is beyond the scenes. We'll be right. Finding great candidates to hire can be like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You might get a lot of resumes, but not enough candidates with the right skills or experience. But not with Zip Recruiter. Zip Recruiter finds amazing candidates for you fast. And right now you can try it for free at Zip Recruiter's smart technology identifies top talent for your roles quickly. Immediately after you post your job, Zip Recruiters' powerful matching technology starts showing you qualified people for it, and you can use Zip Recruiter's pre-written invite

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Again, that's zip recruiter. the smartest way to hire. I want to end with a couple questions about what we can do, you know, with regards to solutions. And Richard, you have spent a lot of time sitting and building out this project that you've talked about a couple, you've already mentioned it a couple times, but let's really pull back the layers on it. It's called the Black Veterans Project. With everything you've laid out to date in terms of the systemic issues within

it for enlisted officers and the issues that retired officers deal with, are you optimistic about seeing progress around the issues of racial equity within the military? Because you know you'll start a project I'm gonna solve the problem and then you look at the problem you'd be like, woooo shit. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I couldn't be doing this as if I didn't feel like we could have an impact. I think I look at what we've done over the last four years. It really started with the idea that, you know, when I was Googling Black Vet, nothing really showed up except a few miscellaneous organizations of whom we've begun to collaborate with some of them. A lot of older black vet. Black vets have been organizing forever, right? There are black vet organizations as old as out of World War I, right?

I got to go to an old American legion that's a historically black American legion, and they were founded by returning black GIs who didn't have anywhere else to go and they formed community and they ended doing amazing things. But my generation is what I understand is the internet, right? And so when I started the project, I realized that like their history just wasn't being told and there wasn't enough coverage. So I think, you know, we've been part and parcel to the proliferation of a lot of storytelling around specifically with the press and edifying journalists and, making sure that folks are talking about this in the digital sphere around like just historical contributions but also like the inequities, it's making sure that the inequities aren't lost.

It's very easy to put up a photo of the Tuskegee Airmen and say, oh, that's enough. But then you're not talking about how some of those men were obstructed from the GI Bill and the compounding generational impact, right? So I just want to kind of force a more rounded conversation. And then, you know, what we've been able to glean by way of data and then kind of connecting researchers and folks that are really interested in reparations for black vets, because that's really at the heart of the work that we've been doing is that veterans are the best position to push forward, black vets are the best position to push forward a conversation about reparations in this country, especially because we don't have to go all the way back to slavery. We can talk about something that was done in the last hundred

years, let alone the last 50 to 60 years that has been affecting black, veterans, but also when we talk about black families, the black community, right, they they they they they they they they are they are they are not they are not they're not they're not their their their their not their not their not their not their not. their not. their not. their not. their not. their not. their not. the. their not. theat, to beaq, to bea. to bea. to bea. to bea. to bea. to bea. to bea. to bea, to bea, black v v, black v, black v, black. to bea, black. to bea, black. to bea. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. to bea. to bea. toe. toe. toe. toea. their. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toe. toe're also talking about black families, the black community, right? They're not, they're not mutually exclusive. So, so yeah. So then to that point, Matthew, can we legislate it? Is there anything being done on a policy level to combat racism within the ranks of the military? Because I always feel like the military, like you have the federal government, and then you have the military, like you have the federal government, in my opinion, you had the federal government

and then you had the military. And like the military is always treated as this weird, annexed, 51st state, if you will, that has their own jail, their own court, their own funding, their own little network of hospitals and everything. How can D.C. better legislate stuff, you know, even beyond reparations? Is that even happening right now? Yeah, let me answer it in two ways. So on the sort of military side, absolutely. The theoretically, the military is a taxpayer-funded institution, and it should be accountable to the kind of treatment that Americans who serve their

country are receiving. I think the question of when the military observes racism happening, whether it's those explicit acts of racism or it's the kind of day-to-day perpetuation of racism that harms black troops and people of color in the military and prevents them from having long sustained beneficial careers, those are things that the military can hold troops to account for. That's going to take work, it's going to take action, it's going to take leadership. But the military is nothing if it's not a structured organization. It's a hierarchical organization. So if military leaders say that this is going to happen

and they hold their supportants to account, that is something that can change if the American public demands it to change. On the other piece,oration Act, that would go a long way towards addressing the wrong of the GI Bill, the racial discrimination that happened there. It was introduced on Veterans Day in 2021 just last year by Seth Moulton and James Claiborne and the House Representatives and by Raphael Warnock in the Senate. What that legislation would do is it would provide those benefits to the descendants of Black World War II veterans who had had the the the their, their, their, th and th and th and their, their, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, tho, tho, thi, thi, their, tho, tho, th, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, was was was was their, was their, was was their, was their, was their, was their, was the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their toge, their their their their their their thracea, their, their, the descendants of Black World War II veterans who had been denied those benefits. So it enabled them to be able to use it for home loans or for college tuition. That's a small piece of a much larger conversation about reparations, but reparations is about repair.

their financial aspect in trying to make right the kind of benefits that their, black veterans had earned through their service in World War II that had been denied to them. And so just the possibility of passing the legislation beyond the very important financial aspect would do justice to the service of these black veterans and help to repair that wrong. I want to end optimistically. What can we the regular people of the world do to properly honor and support veterans other than letting them board first on the airplane and giving them 55 cent coffee at fast food establishments.

Because we all know that's what fixes all of these issues. Being able to get on the plane first. What else can we do? Richard, I'll start with you. There are abundance of policies that have been pushed forward to try to address the issue of race in the military, but how can the American public honor? I think one, it's edifying themselves on the necessity of ensuring that a piece of legislation like the GI Bill Restoration Act can actually do some level of repair. They have intent to try to break that bill up, to try to pass components of it next year, specifically the housing provision in the 118th Congress, which would give quite literally, potentially millions of African Americans access to zero VA-backed home loans.

But we already know that there is still rampant discrimination with respect to black folks access to home loans, right? We, let, home appraisals and all these other things. So what is the private sector doing also to just ensure that the landscape is set so that this reparations can potentially be instituted in a way that can actually have an impact because as it stands now, we might pass this bill by the grace of God and the impact that it could have had is undermined by the lack of public awareness and also a lack of real due diligence with respect to how we actually get this benefit in the hands of the families that have been affected.

It's also an invisible wound, right? And I'll say this as the last part, it's like one, and engaging with a lot of journals, specifically around World War II and the harms of the, in access of the GI Bill is that a lot of families don't even know that this happened to them, right? Or can't even fully articulate it. And you have a whole generation that, very close to not being with us anymore, right? But their families certainly bear the scars, economically at least, of an access to the GI bill. So, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. And, their, their, their, to, to, to, to, to, their, their, their, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, and, and, and, and, and, their, and, their, and, their, their, their, their, their, their, and, and, their, toe. And, toe. And, toe. And, their, their families, their families, their, their, their, the GI Bill. So I think the biggest thing that that the American public can do is educate themselves, engage with the history by half-American, read a book. I obviously think that is like the best way so that we're not engaging in ignorant-based discourse. Matthew, how do we support? I'm a historian so say the same thing I say to my students that the stories we tell about the past matter matter th th th th th th th th th matter matter matter matter matter matter matter matter matter matter matter matter matter matter th th th th th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, the thi, the the thi, the the the the the thi, thi, thi, the the the their, their, their, is, their, is, is, is their, is their, is their their, is their, is their, is their, is the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi, thi, the, the, the. thean, the thean, they. thean, the thean, they. th say to my students, that the stories we tell about the past matter. And so I

think a first starting point is really reckoning honestly with the history of our country, particularly when it comes to military, that black Americans, people of color, have served this country probably throughout our nation's history. They've been deeply, deeply, deeply patriotic. that service, but th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi is their thi. their their their their thi. their their thi. their thi. thi. thi. thi, their their si. their si. thi. their si. their si. the first starting point is the first the first the first the first their, a their, a first their, a first their, a first their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, a their their their is their their, their their thi. toda. today, today, today, today, first starting point is starting point is starting point point is starting point is starting point is starting point, today, today, first start, today, today, thi. t veterans have been treated unequally throughout American history, particularly with the story about World War II. I think in the present, I think it's important to talk about veterans as actual living people. I think we're at a point right now in our country where the military is drawn from about 1% of the entire US population. So you have the one percent who serves and the 99% of their of their of of of, and treated as heroes as a sort of generic category, but then too often ignored as individuals, particularly for black veterans and veterans of color.

That is a disservice to veterans and also to the large American public. I think as citizens who are not in the military or are not veterans, we have to treat veterans as sort of actual living and breathing people who deserve the benefits that they earned and deserve to be welcome back into American communities and given all the support to find to to to to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the benefits that they earned and deserve to be welcomed back into American communities and given all the support they need to find careers, find professional pathways that do justice to the important work they did within the military. Well, I can't thank you all enough for this wonderful, wonderful conversation. I appreciate you all for going beyond the scenes with me today. That's all the time we have. Thank you to our guest Richard and Matthew. And be sure to check out Matthew's new book, Half American, the epic story of African-Americans

fighting World War II at home and abroad. Thank you both. Thanks, bye. Thank you. Play my theme music. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the Iheart Radio App, or wherever you get your podcast. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus.

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