The Daily Show: Ears Edition - How Sexual Racism Affects Online Dating | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: August 20, 2023

We all have preferences when choosing who to date, but when do they cross the line into sexual racism? Daily Show correspondent Ronny Chieng, UMass Amherst sociology professor and associate dean, Jennifer Lundquist, and “Dates & Mates” podcast host, Damona Hoffman join Roy Wood Jr. to discuss how dating apps amplify users’ racial biases and how this impacts those looking for love online.   Original air date: May 31, 2022See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Survivor 47 is here, which means we're bringing you a brand new season of the only official survivor podcast on fire. And this season we are joined by fan favorite and Survivor 46 runner-up, Charlie, Charlie, I'm excited to do this together. Thanks, Jeff. So excited to be here, and I can't wait to bring you inside the mind of a survivor player for season 47. Listen to On Fire the official Survivor podcast starting September 18th wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes. This is the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that already aired on the daily show. This is what you think Beyond the Scenes. This is the podcast that goes deeper into segments and topics that already aired on the

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I'm Roy Wood Jr. Today we are talking about a piece that aired originally in 2016 about online dating and sexual racism, and when dating preferences became a form of discrimination. Roll the clip! As people of color, a law of our problems stem from racism. And now minorities that are having trouble getting late are claiming their lack of game on something called sexual racism. Sexual racism. We sat down with very sexy crybaby Zach Stafford, who says that most people trying to smash on online dating platforms are sexually racist.

When someone says something like, you know, I don't date black people, I'm talking about all black people, that would be referred to as sexual racism. How is not dating someone because of a skin color, any different to not want to date someone because you're not attracted to them. Not wanting to date someone because of skin color, that's kind of the definition of racism. Yeah, but all dating is discrimination. That's what it is. Like, this guy's too duchy. This dude's too sure. This woman won't pee on me. I mean, what? I mean, what? I mean, yeah? I mean, I mean, you know that. I mean, you wouldn't, you, you, you, you, you, I, you, I, I, I, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, th, th, th, the the that. Yeah, that. Yeah, that. Yeah, that. Yeah, that, that. Yeah, that, that, yeah, that, that. Yeah, that, that, that, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the that, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, the the the the the the the the the the that. Yeah, the that. Yeah, that. Yeah, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, on me. It's called Water Sports if you're looking for a term.

I... Yeah, I know that. You know that. All we're talking about is the fact that we do think about race when we're thinking about desire. And sometimes it can be detrimental to people. Today I'm joined by Daily Show correspondent and huge NBA basketball fan and star of music and movies and films. Ronnie Chang, how you doing? I miss you, friend. Hey, good to see you, man. You can come back to the office, you know. Yeah, I'm, maybe. I don't know. Yeah, well, allowed to come back in. If you actually

miss me, you would come back in, but. Nah, then you know what? It's just good to see you virtually, friend. We're also joined by the author of the book book book book book book book book book book book. the book. the book. the book. the book. the book. the book. the book. the book. the book. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi, thi, to, to, th. thi, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to come, to come, to come, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. B. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the. the. the. the. You, the. You, the. You, the. B. You, the author of the book, The Dating Divide, Race and Desire in the era of online romance, Jennifer Lundquist, how are you doing today? Hi there, I'm very happy to be here. Thanks for having me. Thank you. And I apologize in advance if Ronnie and I get to arguing, just know that that's what we do with each other. It's all in love. And lastly, we're joined by certified dating coach, DeMana Hoffman.

D'Amana, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me, Roy. Now, Ronnie, as I recall, this was a piece that you did with Jessica Williams. And you know, we started talking about the preferences with regards to black women and Asian people on the dating apps. Walk us through this segment and where the idea to talk about sexual racism came from. Yeah, I can't remember where the pitch came from, but I think it was sparked by this article talking about the two least desired races on a dating app. So the stats were what sparked the conversation because it wasn't a feeling it was like some hot data.

And as you know, Roy, it's very rare to actually do a double header with two correspondence in one piece. So, very rare. Right, and we had, luckily, thanks to diverse hiring policies, we had a African-American woman correspondent, and we had an Asian man correspondent, we were the two least desired demographics on the dating app. So we were like, this is perfect, let's go talk about it.

So it fit like Lego, so we just went to go do the piece. We needed to talk to someone with insider information about how online daters behave. Like Christian Rudder, he co-founded OKCupid, and wrote a whole book about dating statistics. We looked at who people people people people people people people people people people people people people the their their their their their their their their their their their their at who people messaged, who they matched with, who they responded to. So you're like Edward Snowden but for trying to put pines in the jeans? Sort of, yes.

There is kind of a systemic racial bias, a racial bias, pretty much in every dating site I've ever looked at. Yeah, for instance. that 82% of thatblack men have some bias against black women. 82%? Some laugh, I mean, that's racist and shit. And Asian men get the fewest messages and the worst ratings of any group of guys. Ha ha ha ha ha.

When you came to America, what did it feel like to find out that you were amongst the least desired groups when it comes to dating? Now you're a married man, let's add that for context. But how did it feel, Ronnie, how did it feel to know? Least desire. Okay, okay, relax. On dating. First of all, first of all, that was news to me.

Obviously in Asia, Asian men aren't the least desired demographic, I think. Although I have no stats to back that up, so maybe someone should do a data study in Asia on that. But I guess I can be vulnerable and admit it was like, oh, it felt bad, and I was curious why. I also, something instinctively also, I wasn't that surprised. Just the way Asian men are kind of portrayed in media, I kind of suspected as much, but, but again, it was nice to have like hot data

instead of just going off, you know, being a sensitive vibe and having the hard data and be like, well, you know, the data kind of proves it, so, um, what was... To answer a question, it didn't feel good. What was more shocking, finding out about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about about, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, the, th. uh, th. th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, su, su, sui, sui, sui, sui, sui, sui, sui, sui, sui, sui. sui. sui. sui. sui. uh, sui. uh, sui you know, the data kind of proves it. So, um, what was it did, to answer a question, it didn't feel good. What was more shocking, finding out about Asian men or black women in terms of, I mean, I'm, I'm, we're having an honest conversation here, so if I, again, trouble for this, um, sure, but honestly, I was surprised that black women were on the list with us because... Because we're banging, okay? Yes.

Yeah, again, for me, as a complete ignorant person, I'm not a sociologe or anything, I tie a lot of this, what we're talking about right now, the dating preferences to pop culture and storytelling, because that's my industry, is telling stories and movies and TV shows and so on. So for me, like, black women, th. I, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th movies and TV shows and so on. So for me, like black women always portrayed, I mean, better than Asian men, in my opinion. There's certain heroes in American pop culture like Beyonce. Yeah, even going back to Pam Greer and the Foxy Brown era, black women portray. So because of that, I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm just saying because of that, I was surprised to learn that black women were on the same tier as us.

Have you ever used a dating app? I have, I'll be honest, I'll speak freely. I've lived a life. Have you? No, I got attached before the dating app boom. So I skipped that whole thing, that whole error for me. So I had to join dating apps for this segment. You know, yeah, I mean.

That's interesting. You've met your wife the old-fashioned way through the personal ads in the newspaper. I respect that, bro. I met her old school, the old school way, meeting her at university. You can't get more old school than that. College costs too much to meet a wife now. You can't do that anymore. So Ronnie, did you download all the dating apps? Yeah, I joined the dating apps for the first time in my life with my then fiancé's

permission. I also went to join Raya, which was like this super exclusive one for heart. Which people people people people people people. Is people people people people people. Is people people people people. Is which people. Is which people. Is which people. Is which people. Is the the the th which th. th. the th. the th. the th. the th. the th. the the the th. the the the thi. thi. their, I, I, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. their, their, their, their, their. I, their. I, their. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I the th. I th. I thi. I tho. I thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooes. So. So, th. So, th rich people. That's a celebrity invite only. And I couldn't get in. I couldn't get in. I got all the famous people I knew to like recommend me. And I couldn't get in it. So I mean, that's some bias right there. If there's ever a proof of racial bias,

the fact that I couldn't get in this, even though I had I think I got social capital I don't want to blow up anyone spot by saying who recommended me but I got some heavy hitters to recommend me for Raya I couldn't get in but every I joined grinder tinder bumble everything and just to see what what happened wait what grinder we want hey gotta see what's going on with gay man too where's the let's see where the bias is a thorough reporter over there that's good I put I I I I I I I put I put I put that I that I that I that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th that's that's th that's that's that's that's that's th that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the the that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the that's that's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th the the the the the the the the the the the the the theeeeeeeeeeee theeeeeeeeeeee the the the the the It's a thorough reporter over there. That's good. I put my Daily Show headshot in it. So I think that biased a lot of things, because then we started getting a lot of, you know, are you the guy from the Daily Show guy?

At the end of this segment, we actually had a phone number. We actually had a phone number for people call in to tell us their stories about racial bias and we got a ton of phone calls which was really interesting and I think we recorded it but I don't know where that ever went we never did anything with it but we had a bunch of people call in and some people called in from jail, some people called in in from, I mean it was that was a old TV show on its own, yeah, tell us about racial bias, but yeah, dating apps are crazy. I think the only dating app ever did seriously was E. Harmony, back when that was the one back in the day. Again, you're 40-point personality profile.

Basically, it was like 50 essay questions you have to answer. And then if you like someone's picture, you can see three of their questions. And then if they like three of your questions, you can see five more of their questions. Like basically... So even the internet was old school back then. You know what I mean? But what, it actually, it created a different environment, I would say on dating apps because the barrier for entry was so high. Like you had to have serious intent if you were going to fill out out the 50 the 50 the 50 the 50 the 50 the 50 the 50, the 50, the 50, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to have serious intent if you were going to fill out the 50-point questions. And it literally took hours.

Yeah, college application. We've seen a huge change in the number of people using dating apps. Just really since, I mean, OK, Cupid has been around since 2004. But ever since Tinder launched in 2012, that really changed the game because it made the barrier for entry so low. It was free to join, you could just upload a couple of pictures from your Facebook profile or whatever, and you were on.

And so the variance in, the variety in the kind of messages you would get and who you would meet, expanded, the speed of dating, expanded. And so that's when it got crazy and the stigma decreased the stigma decreased certainly Jennifer let's start with the base level define sexual racism for everyone and how do dating apps exacerbate this issue in our book we talk about digital sexual racism there is this normalized racial preference that people think of

as very individual level preferences. Dating apps and the online digital dating markets are one of the only spheres left in modern-day U.S. society where it is perfectly acceptable to articulate you know what your preference is, how you might want to, how you might want to limit your searches based on race. So in education, employment, housing, many other spheres, we know might want to limit your searches based on race. So in education, employment, housing, many other spheres, we know that these are, this is legally wrong and morally wrong, but in dating markets, it's become acceptable. Where does race fit into the pre-assume cultural compatibilities?

Because I would assume a lot of us gravitate toward the particular race because we believe particular cultural software is already pre-installed, if you will, with certain people, where does that line stop and discrimination begin? Or is it all, or is it all, because we may have always thought, oh no, yes, I'm just into black people, I'm only into that, but has that always been a form of discriminatory behavior?

When you think about always, the history in the United States is we had very rigidly enforced anti-mesagination laws which kept people from different races from intermixing with one another. So it's very difficult to tell what sort of the natural inclinations would be because so much of our history was about keeping the races as particularly whites from mixing with other races. So that was really one of the questions that animated our research, which was we know that, for example, interracial marriage rates are much lower than if you were to randomly, you know, assort the population with one another. And so the question has always been among social scientists is, is this because we live in such a segregated society still today that we just don't come into interaction with

one another to, you know, become friends and eventually start dating one another, and how much of this is about preference, right? And so that's why digital dating markets are so, such a fascinating space because, you know, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, and so, the question, the question, the question, the question, the question, the question, the question, the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, about preference, right? And so that's why digital dating markets are such a fascinating space, because, you know, in theory, there is no racial segregation in digital dating markets. And, you know, in our case, we had millions and millions of online interactions that we analyzed, and we also interviewed 78 daters, and we're able to see not just what they said,

but what they do in the online space. and there, and there their their their their their their their their their their their their thi space, and thi space, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and the, and the, and theateateateateate, the, theat, theat, theat, the, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th.... th. th.. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, thean, toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooea. And, and thea, and they said but what they do in the online space and there are a lot of preferences that define how people interact with one another so you know they essentially bring segregation with them. Do the apps, how do the apps have to perpetuate it? Because I guess if I'm if I'm clicking, well let me use Instagram as an example, not necessarily a dating app, but it can be if you're courageous enough to jump in those DMs. It's an app where you can accidentally click on a picture of a particular thing, and then for the next four weeks, Instagram just shows you more pictures of that particular thing,

even if it was an accident that you clicked on a woman in a bikini, and you really love your girl, and you, and you, and you, and you, and you th, and you th, you to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi, thi, their their their their their their thi... theou- theo- theou- the. the. the. the. the, the, the, thi. thi. thi, thi, thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiia thea thi. thi. thi. that particular thing, even if it was an accident that you clicked on a woman in a bikini and you really love your girl and you wanted to know that and it's not your fault that all of these extra bikini people. I'm sorry. How did the apps help to perpetuate the issue? Yeah, so in addition to, particularly the larger dating companies that allow people to search by race, etc. There's also the algorithms, like what you're talking about. And algorithms are really black boxes in terms of we don't know what's inside of them. It's information that dating companies hold close to their chest. Algorithms can both be actually have race in the algorithm, or it can be machine learning,

which is what are, what is the average user interested in, or who have you looked at specifically. And then that's all you see from there on out. And then what I'll say, another aspect of digital sexual racism is that you have a setting where what's known as online disinhibition effect, where you have people who interact with each other online tend to be much more, say, rude or honest than they would be in a face-to-face environment. And so you have these desegregated spaces, but then you also have situations where people are being exposed to misogyny and definitely racial misogyny in many cases.

And so it's not that it didn't exist before, but it's so visible, right? That I think that that can be just really shocking for especially women in general, but especially Asian and black and Latino women on these sites. And the fact that it's like such an assembly line, right? Dating can really feel once you've seen, you start to lose your facial recognition ability, you're swiping and swiping, and so I think it's very easy to

dehumanize others. So you have all of these factors that interact with each other with fast-moving technologies that have not only re-ify and make more visible sexual racism, but also I think are manifesting in new ways. So, Demona, you're OKCupid's official dating coach. Now, this segment is about six years old. What can you update us on with regards to the stats and trends that you're seeing amongst online daters? Is it still Asian and Black Women at the back of the pack or have the numbers increased?

Is there a little more equality? Did the black Instagram squares work, Damana? I'm not gonna comment on the black Instagram squares, but what I could say is- We came together, Demona, it's time. Kumbaya, we're all in this together. And you know, especially within the pandemic, we've seen that there's been an increase in online dating overall. And that actually was a tool that helped people stay connected

at a time when you weren't even going to class and college in person. So your options for meeting someone were really limited. But as someone who met my own person, I met my husband online, way before it was cool, Roy, back in probably when Ronnie was meeting his wife in college, I was an early adopter of online dating and as a black woman I can say I was not surprised by the stats that came out in Christian Rudder's book and Dataclism. But what I will say is that those stats, you came out in Christian Rudder's book and Dataclysm. But what I will say is that those stats,

you reported on it in 2016, but the data is now over 10 years old. So there has been a huge cultural shift overall, and I've always seen dating apps, not as the problem. We want to put all of our frustration with dating culture, with the pandemic, with race, with everything on the dating app. But the dating app is really just the tool. And as someone who isn't an interracial marriage

with someone that I met on a dating app, I know that it is a tool that actually can bridge worlds when used in that way, but it is an amplifier. And so whatever beliefs that you you come into dating apps with, those are going to be amplified because you, you have it your way. You can't, you can't manipulate the app, you can't impact the algorithms. I can't give you all the secret sauce, but I can tell you, just like you said, clicking on certain people will populate the app

with more people who look like that. But this is a place where people show up with their biases, with their preferences. And this is something that in my own practice as a dating coach, I've been unpacking. I wrote an article for the Washington on racism and dating because I feel that for too long we have allowed people to hide behind their dating preference and we have not encouraged them to examine where those preferences come from. This is a problem in America and it's really time that we pulled back the curtain

and examined that. Let's go to a break. We'll be right back with more beyond the scenes. Jennifer, why do you think people are so hesitant to have a conversation around this? Because does the sex and dating and romance aspect of this make it a factor? Because if you go off a cliff into pornography it's no no but I'm serious Ronnie see Ronnie so you try to make me look bad no no no I'm trying to look bad no no I'm doing to try no I'm not want to date black but see that's why we're

friends you're my friend again Ronnie nice say but this idea that the theyre you're my friend again Ronnie nice sake but this idea that it's so taboo th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thaboo th thaboo thaboo thaboo thaboo thaboo thaboo thaboo tha tho tho thi thi thi thi. the their their their their the their the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I theee. I theeeeeeeeeeee. I'm thi. I'm they're they're thi. I'm thi thi thi thi. See, that's why we're friends. You're my friend again, Ronnie. Nice sake. But this idea that it's so taboo because even in pornography, there is racism when it comes to the preference of the type of porn that some people want to see so much so that porn stars won't do interracial scenes for fear that it hurts their money. So what you're saying is obviously happening. But why are people hesitant to have the conversation around the racism factor when it comes to dating? Yes, people are very, very defensive about being called out for their sexual preferences, having anything to do with racial preference. I think a lot of this has to do with the fact that we, as Americans, were very individually oriented,

and we think of our personal preferences as somehow separate from the public sphere, and that the personal is not political, and yet the personal is political, is essentially what DeMano was arguing in that, and what we argue in our book. Racial preferences continue to maintain the status quo and discrimination. For example, you know, when our book came out, I remember, I don't know if you're familiar with campus reform. It's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, th, th, thi, thi, the the thi, thi, thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, tho, tho, tho, tho, the the theo, theo theo theo theo theo theo theo theo theo theo theo theoo theoooooo, the the th maintain the status quo and discrimination. For example, you know, when our book came out, I remember, I don't know if you're familiar with

campus reform, it's a kind of a right-wing student newspaper that's funded by a lot of, it's funded by a lot of right-wing organizations. And when they had a little piece on our book, which was, came out on Valentine's Day and said, happy Valentine's, you're a racist, you know, that's how they summarize they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they had a little piece on our book which was, came out on Valentine's Day and said, happy Valentine's, you're a racist, you know, that's how they summarize what our book said. But essentially we're not arguing that individuals are racist teauarcist for having a sexual preference. What we are arguing is that we live in a racist society, we live in a white supremacy and so we are fooling ourselves to think that just as race as a social construction, that our racial preferences are not also socially constructed and are essentially imprints from centuries

of racial marginalization. We live in a racial hierarchy and we still do. Daters, I think it's just very aware for them to have awareness about this, to think about it, to ask themselves, why? Why do I have a racial preference? Often the white daters we interviewed were hesitant to admit racial preferences, although it would often come out later, these are two-hour interviews, so there are lots of ways at getting at different kinds of questions, but we would hear things like, I did date a Latino once, but you know, I found that he was really a machismo, and so now I don't date Latinos at all.

Right? So, you know, the one individual suddenly defines the entire race, right? And so that was kind of something common that we would hear, or someone would say, you know, a white person. I never dated, you know, a black woman before, but you know, I would totally date with Beyonce or a woman might say, I would totally date that like K-pop dude. So there's an exceptionalism that play there for sure. Well I think it's also about we get, we learn relationally, I believe, and so through these relationships that we have and through interactions that we have with people of different

backgrounds, we start to form different opinions. So you know someone might say, well you know I don't deal with black people or like I you know they have certain beliefs about black people, but they're like, oh but my, my neighbor Gary across the street, well he cool, well, he's fine. Well, Beyonce, because I listen to her music and I see, you know, I watched lemonade album, you know, whatever. Now I have a different association with her. And so, you know, what I was arguing in the Washington Post piece, which was very controversial, I did get, I got a lot of hate mail,

but I got a few people who said, thank you for just opening my eyes to the fact that I have power in how, in what happens with culture as a whole. And I can personally choose to look at this differently and to look at the opportunity in forming a relationship with someone of a different background or even just exploring. Just having the conversation is what gets us there. But I think what the dissonance that's coming up is that people overall want to believe, well, I'm not racist. There was a Gallup poll that looked at approval of interracial marriages and the most

recent poll said 94% approve of interracial marriage between black and white. This is a huge difference from like prior to in 1958 when they first did this did the study only four percent. Yeah right. But you know it really wasn't that long ago just four percent of people said that they approved of black and white marriage. So we approve of it but not necessarily for me and so as communities open up and tools like online dating and social media allow us to have access to other cultures, other people who are different than us, we are learning

and we're learning actually pretty quickly. The other thing about this piece that was interesting was that it was like me and Jessica formed like this union between two demographics that don't speak out for each other enough, which is Asian men and black women. Like we didn't really have a chance to have the other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other, other, other, other, to have to have other, to, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, other, to other, to to to to to to to to to to have to have to have to have, to have, to have, to have, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to other, to other, to other, to other, to other, to other, to other, to other, to, two demographics that don't speak out for each other enough which is Asian men and black women like we didn't really have a chance to have each other's backs so to speak in many issues but this is one thing where we were like no screw this and then we went to go we went to go fight people about it I always think of Roy did another piece on surprise surprise racism you did this early piece of Jordan and

Clepper about I can't remember what the least bias. Police bias yeah and one of the things I got away from that that always stuck with me was this idea that when you accuse people of being racist it really shuts down the conversation because people get defensive about it. Yeah but but other our word right but if you just say hey you might be racially biased it it kind of gives people a chance to talk about it which it which it which it which it which it which the the the the the the the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least least the least least least the least least the least least least the least least least least the least least least least least the least least least least the least least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the least the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. least. the. least. the. the. least. least. the. least. the. least. least. the. least. the. the. the. least. the. the. the other R word. Right, but if you just say, hey, you might be racially biased, it kind of gives people a chance to talk about it, which ultimately is what we're doing right here, because you can't force people to date people they don't want to date. It's not, the end of the day,

it's something they have to decide inside. So if you're trying to change people's minds, if you're trying to extend an olive branch, you know, the only way to do it is to meet them in a place where they're not being accused of, you know, being awful people. The other aspect of this is that as an Asian man, for me to come out, I love doing a daily show in these segments because we get to make fun of it and talk about serious issues. But for me to come out and be like, no one is dating me. This is disgusting. You guys are racist because you guys aren't dating me. You guys should date me. Like, not only is that weird, it's also off-putting and counterproductive, in my opinion

to the ultimate goal of trying to get people to date you. So that's why you're in this weird case 22. Wait, complaining about it, as a, I can't speak to black women, but I expect to have the same experience. As an Asian guy, complaining about it is counterproductive. So you can't even have a conversation, you just have to like deal with it, and, and, you know, the numbers kind of confirm, the number of, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, th, th, th, the, the, the, trying, trying, trying, trying, trying, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th., th., th. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. th. th. th. the, I, I, I see in Western society a lot. You know, a lot of Asian people in America are immigrants. Not all of them, obviously we've got eight generations, the third generation Asian people.

But the immigrant people who come, you can see like, you know, the Asian daughters in the family all have like white husbands and the Asian men will have like Asian wives, you know, the Asian daughters in the family all have like white husbands and the Asian men will have like Asian wives, you know, and that's totally fine, but you see a trend coming and some of that I think has to do with the social capital that you possess in the country, your ability to navigate the systems and be successful in institutions, you know based on your language, based on your institutional knowledge of a place, and a lot of immigrants don't their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th.ae, and the, and the, and thiae, and thiae, and thiae, and thiae, and thiae, and thiae, and the, and the, and the, and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thea, thea, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thea, tha, tha, tha, and thea, and on your institutional knowledge of the place, and a lot of immigrants don't have that. And so therefore, you know, their kind of worth in society is kind of decreased in a way, which is, I think there's a correlation between that and the dating

status that we see. That's such a great point. And one of the things I always found really interesting about the data is that Asian American men on average have higher average incomes than any other racial group including white men, which is often, you know, a parameter that women are looking for and a mate. And indeed we interviewed plenty of women who actually are fully aware of this and had preferences around Asian men. And so when we talk about the statistics, that's a wholly different situation than the individual. And I will say that it was so fascinating to do the huge statistical overview and see some pretty sobering findings, and then to talk to individuals who, you know, may be one of these groups who

statistically are ignored, but themselves have, you know, are pretty resilient and have had success stories. It's just been a little harder. Resilient. They kept with it. They kept with it. That's right. They hung in there.

Let me ask you, Jennifer, and Demona, especially. You tell me whether or not I'm a racist. You tell me whether not I'm guilty of sexual racism. I am 43 years old. Every open, committed relationship I've ever been in has been with a black woman. I've had sex with other races, but if we're talking just straight up legit, yes, you are my girlfriend. Hey, everyone. This is my girlfriend. Hey, mama, meet my girlfriend, it's always been a black woman. I went out with a white woman one time and we had some good-ass vibes. Went out a couple times, good-ass vibes.

But I remember being out to eat and as a black man, this was my first time being out with a white woman like this and just I could not keep my eyes off of whether or not people were watching us. that was thaaaaaaaaauuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. I thi thi thi thi thi th th th th th thi thi thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. thi. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi thi. I thi thi thi thi thi the the the the the the the theean thean thean thean thean theean thean the the thi. thi. I not keep my eyes off of whether or not people were watching us, that was thing one, the public perception of it. That made it uncomfortable. The other thing was as I knew I wanted to have children and this thought of, okay, if I'm raising what is essentially a black child, but he only has half of the pre-installed blackness at the house, can this woman help me usher this black child through circumstances that I'm not sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure sure thuuuuuu that I that I that I th not thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi this this this this thi this this this this this thi this this this this this thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th this th this this th this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this this thi, this thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thi. thi. thi at the house, can this woman help me usher this black child through circumstances that I'm not sure that she has experienced or can see from a perspective that will be beneficial to the upbringing it?

Because I can be kumbaya, but the world is not. So you know what? I like you, but I don't think we can date because people are looking at us weird in Applebee's and maybe I'm just being paranoid about that. But that was the only time that I've ever come close to dating interracially and I could not get past the kid aspect of that. Is that a factor in some people? Roy, Ronnie, I see you looking at it. Roy, you suck.

I'm just being honest, man. You're being terrible. Also, man, I can't have your good boyfriend or bad boyfriend. Because one, you care so much about what other people think instead of the person you're dating. Then two, you're like, it's extrapolating so far ahead about your kid in like, when he's 10 years old, what am I going to do? So you're both like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th.. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, she's 10 years old what am I going to do? So you're both like you're thinking. There's no dating algorithm that can tell me what her racial blind spots are. No, I mean that's the whole point though. Isn't that the point of dating? It's to be able to have

those conversations and have those explorations. And look, it's not in your head Roy. Like I have had that same experience being somewhere with my white husband and being very aware people are looking at us or I'm feeling uncomfortable just being a person of color in that space. But it's something that I've chosen to walk through because the benefit is so much greater than all of those other challenges that I've had to go through. Having the relationship to me is worth more than that. But there is something thi that thi thi th I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi their their their their their their their their their their their thi theeii theiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. I'm feeling their their challenges that I've had to go through. Having the relationship, to me is worth more than that. But there was something and you said that was really interesting to me when you said you've never introduced anyone other than a black woman to your mom. To me, that might be the foundation of it is that these expectations are so deeply ingrained

from family, from community. Why don't you bring no white girl in a- Not my mom, but there's a lot of black, do you think being a byproduct of a black home, like how much of what we were raised in influences what we seek out in love? Because you talk about- I would say a lot of their research, though.

I thought Domona is basically saying there's a lot of trouble, but the white privilege is worth it. The white person... She's like, look, there's a lot of issues in the future, but... We're joking about it, but I feel like that in a way, that is something also to examine, like anything plus white equals privilege in a lot. And so that is not, in any way, the way, a way, a way, a way, a way, a way, that, that, that, that, that, that, the way, that, the way, the way, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, that, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, is, is, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, the white, is, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, is, that, that, that, that, is, is, is, is, is, is, the white, is, is, is, is, is, is a white, is a white, is a white, is a white, is a white, is a white, is a white, the white, is, the white, the white, the white, the white, is, the white, the white, the white, the white, is, is, the white, is, the white, is a lot. And so that is not in any way a factor in why I decided to partner. But it is something, it is something to examine, and it is something, I will admit, Roy, that comes up in our relationship,

where there are blind spots that my husband has because he hasn't walked in my shoes. He hasn't had the experiences of being a black woman in America. And he is being educated by being in a relationship with me and being encouraged to look at things through a different lens. Absolutely. I've heard, Roy, what all the things you just said, I've heard that a lot.

And in fact, I remember when a grinder, after George Floyd's murder, removed their racial filtering categories because they realized that this is a problem. Most other dating websites have not, but there are a lot of folks in the black community who really resisted that and spoke out to that and said, you know, I want to be able to find people within my own community. I don't want to lose that opportunity to be able to filter out people who objectify me or fetishize me who are of different races. I want to look for black men because we share, we know what it's like to be a black person

in a very white society. Is that racist? I would argue that it's not. It's about familiarity and survival. And, you know, one thing that I always found really interesting too in some of our research is, there's a very strong black love emphasis within the black community. You don't find that as much in the Asian community. And I think some of that has to do with the fact that, you know,

the Asian American community is really, really heterogeneous. You have people from many, many generations in different countries, etc. And so there's not the same level of solidarity in a white world, although I think that that's changing. But that, I think that the way you feel, or the way, not racist. Close, but not quite all the way, but still a little bit of biases, a little bit of a blind spot. After the break, I want to talk about what are the other things that contribute to our biases when it comes to dating. Ronnie, thank you for joining us.

I know you've got to do important rich Asian man stuff, so I gotta go do some daily show stuff right now, okay? The opposite of rich Asian man stuff. But thanks, yeah, thanks so much for having me. It's great to speak to you, experts who actually can back up what me and Jessica experienced or were researching from just a layperson's point of view. But I think the ultimate goal of all this is, as Jennifer and Mona was saying, is that, you know, you can the opposite the opposite the opposite the opposite the opposite the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to tooes to do to to to to to to to to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th.. th. the. the. the an the an the an thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. theananit. toea. toe an the ultimate goal of all this is, as Jennifer and DeMona were saying, is that you know, you can't force people to date who they don't want to date, but I think the idea behind this conversation is to hopefully have people kind of expand their horizons a little bit and open themselves up to dating

other people in the hopes of increasing their chances of finding someone who they ultimately want to be with. That's the ultimate goal here. In my opinion, it's not trying to force people at gunpoint to date. To date other, you know, whatever race they say they hate. The ultimate goal is, I think, personal happiness is the reason why we're even having this conversation, in my opinion. But anyway, very nice to speak to all of you. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thate. thate, thatease thate, thate, thate, thate, thate, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thi. thi. to to to to their their to their to their to thate. to thate. to thate. to thate, their thateate, thate, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's in my opinion. But anyway, it's very nice to speak to all of you. Thank you. Beautifully said. We'll be right back. Welcome back to Beyond the Scenes. We are talking sexual racism and whether or not you just have a preference

and that's what you're attracted to and it's not your fault or if you are a terrible person. How much does the media play a role in what we desire? When you look at commercials and when you look at television shows, they've given us the mold of what they believe a desirable partner is, and more often than not, it's not an Asian man. And in a lot of instances, black women are in subservient roles in television. Like, you know, like, I don't even think there's been an Asian bachelor, if I'm not mistaken. But how much does the media play in informing our unconscious biases?

Play is a huge role, and everything that we consume really influences the way that we move through society. You mentioned Asian men in media not being sexualized. And that was something that was very deliberate with crazy rich Asians where they were positioning the cast to become sex symbols. And we actually saw it, well, not only was the movie a huge success. There was a desire for that, but it really did seem to change some perceptions of Asian men. And there's a long way to go in sort of leveling the playing field, but we've had a lot of these images for so long. And like for black women, it was, you were either like the Jezebel or the Mamming. I know you've talked about, you know, the strong black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black black, the the the the the the the the the the desire. the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the, the desire, the desire, the, the the the the the desire, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, the desire, it was you were either like the Jezebel or the Mamming I know you've talked about you know the strong black

women on episodes before and so this is something that a lot of black women carry as a fear when they go into online dating that I'm either going to be seen as a caretaker or I'm being sexualized and and fetishized and I even I hosted a show called hashtag black love for FYI. It was a spin-off of Married at First Site because there was so much passion around wanting to see black relationships and on Married at First Sight in the first season, the only couple that didn't make it was the black couple.

So everybody was like, we want black love. And I've seen that in media, a lot of black networks or black outlets have given the space for that because the more mainstream outlets are not doing that. And that may also factor into a preference for black women wanting to continue to find black relationships and promote black love because that's, it's not being reflected for them in mainstream content. I would agree and I think the media is a huge part of perpetuating pre-existing stereotypical images but also producing them in many cases as well.

I remember I used to always show this image of students, it's a little old at this point but there's lots of examples since. With Hurricane Katrina, there was a bunch of AP images of people who were basically waiting in chest-deep water and one showed a couple African-American folks and it was people looting whatever store. And another one showed, you know, white people with food that they'd gotten from a store, saying white people looking for food, etc., etc. And so you see just a very different... Yes, right, survival. So you see this very different framing by race, and there's so much sort of gendered racialization around

masculinity, hyper-masculinity, or emasculation in the case of Asian men or passive lotus flower kinds of imagery around Asian women and there's roots of this that go way back in history that we talk a lot about in our book. What have been some of the victories? Give me some good news. Are you seeing a shift? Because people approve of interracial dating, but is it actually happening? Have you seen any type of shift in the dating trends?

Especially since COVID, when everybody was struck at home, and you know, a lot of relationships did not survive COVID. So you probably had to be open to to to be open to be open to be open to be open to be open to be open to be open to be open to be open to be open to be open to be open a to be open a to be open a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be open to a couple of more options back in those days. Yes, people definitely were more experiential and more explorational in their experiences. I mean, we saw also people were more open on gender. We saw people changing their preferences, their sexuality preferences. Okay, Cupid, we released 60 different gender and identity options so that people could find whatever they were looking for. So we did see a lot more flexibility, and we do see

looking at census data. Now about 20%, about 1 in 6 newlywed couples are with someone of a different race or ethnicity. So when you look at just 1958, only four people were approving of this is specifically black, white, inter marriage. Now we're at a place where there is actually a ton of intermarriage. And I think it's interestingly correlated actually with the rise in dating apps,

because now we have access to different communities. And there is good news. Like on OKCupid, black women are finding more success and women identifying as black have been getting more matches in the past year and it's higher than any time in the past three years. As I always like to do on this podcast and this part of the show, ladies, I'd like try and talk a little bit about solutions and things that we can do to help change the problems that we've laid out so dutifully up into this point. Demona, I'll start with you.

You know, as a dating coach, how do you encourage your clients to be race open while dating? How do you get them them them to them to to to to to to to to to to to to their their to their their their their to to their their to to to their their to to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the problems, their, their, their, their, change, change, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thaugh.s.s.s, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, the word. How do you encourage them to be race open while dating? How do you get them to put more, check more boxes of race when they're... Well, my goal is not to make everyone date race open, though I see that as the best chance at them finding what they're looking for if they don't put a restriction on race. But what I want them to do is to date from a place to be from from from from a place to be from a place to be from a place to be from a place to date from a place to date from a place to date from a place to date from a place to date from a place to date from a place to date from a place to date from a place to date from a to date from a to date to date to date to date to date to date to date toaeaeaeaqeating.aeating.aq.a. toeating. toeating. toe. Iae. Iae. Iae. Iae. Iae. Iae. Iae. Iae. Iae. Iae. Iae. Ia. Ia.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. to to to the to to to to to to to to toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe what I want them to do is to date from a place of authenticity and clarity. At the beginning of my dating coaching program, I always ask people about race.

And I've always done this. It was surprising to me when I wrote the Washington Post piece to find that other dating coaches weren't necessarily doing this, or were making assumptions that people just wanted to date someone who came from a similar background and we I think as a whole we make a lot of assumptions that someone with our skin color must have similar experiences or must have similar values or views on the world or would raise children in the same way and I want to get underneath all of that and really have people examine what

their own beliefs are so if they tell me that and really have people examine what their own beliefs are. So if they tell me that they only date someone of their race, I'll ask them why. It's actually a business technique. I do the five-wise technique that was founded by Toyota to figure out why systems were not working, I'll apply that to dating and I'll say, okay, well, why haven't you dated anyone of another race? Well, I just never, I never met anyone of another race. Well, why? Well, I never went outside of dating in my social circle. Why?

And when we start to unpack that, you know, basically the answer to all questions is because racism. But what I'm trying to get my clients to do is to get them to understand these factors that are impacting their preferences, the way that they date and examine them and see what fits. Which part of this may be an expectation that maybe your parents had for you or that was ingrained by society and culture? And which part of it really comes from a place of honesty and clarity for yourself and building the life that you want

and the relationship that you ultimately want to have. I know that for me, if I'm just speaking about dating in my 20s, a lot of it was just rooted in the presumed cultural unrelatability. You're white girl, I'm just gonna assume you don't like, it's not like rap, it's not like rap wasn't as pervasive into what like white people are resistant to rap but in the sense of oh if I said this rapper this rapper this rapper this rapper she's gonna know all of them there was just this preconceived notion that there is a cultural divide too big for us to close for us to date and that was always the assumption and so I just never would you know if there was five white girls at a table and they had one black friend in my th. th. th. th. I I I I I I I I I I I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. Oh thi. th. th. th. Oh th. Oh th. Oh th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I th. th. th. I th. th. th. theee. the. the. the. the. thi. thi. thi thi thi th know, if there was five white girls at a table and they had one black friend,

and my brain, I have to talk to her. I also wonder, Roy, how much of that actually comes from a place of fear of rejection? Like, I know this is something as a black woman and someone who's worked with a lot of black women, there's this fear that if, if I up to this person who is different than me and they reject me, it's because I'm black. Was that ever a part of your thought process? No, but it never really gotten to, by the way, Jennifer, welcome to my free dating counseling session.

I hope that you're enjoying this. It was never, I don't think it was ever rooted in that, but I do know that a part of it for me, if we're talking to your point about cultural upbringing, I grew up in Birmingham, Alabama, Birmingham proper, the Birmingham within the city limits is about an 80% black city. I did not have a white classmate until the sixth grade. And that was for a couple of months before I got transferred back to another predominantly black middle school. So. So. So, and th. So, th. And, th. And, th, th, th, to, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm the, I'm the, I'm the, I'm the the the the thi, thi, the thr-a, thruu. thrui. thrui. to throwne, to to to the So my world was black, the black boys club, I went to black church, I hung out and played with black kids, my mama had black sorority sisters, I played with her friends. So whiteness was never culturally, that just wasn't a thing growing up. So when you get older and you become a man, you're kind of keying into a lot of that data that was, that software was already kind of pre- that behavioral software, I feel to a degree was probably already

pre-installed. So you do have to overcome a lot of what your upbringing was to break out of that, to be race open. I've never been race, look, I've never said, eh, I'm never saying, eh, eh, white girl, but it was always just a black woman and it just always felt like a quick and easier and simple fix. And I'm not saying that that was the right choice and I'm not saying that was always the right thing to do and that I couldn't have had a great relationship with the white girl from Applebee's, but that was more daunting than the fear of rejection. The fear of rejection I I I I I I the fear of rejection I I I I theeea thea thea thea that I that I that I that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that was that was that was that that was that's not that was that was that that that that that that that that that that that that was that was that was that was that was that was that was that was that was that was that was that was that was that was that was, I was, I was that was that was, I was, I I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was that was that was that was that was not, I was that's that's that's thea thea thea. I was thea.a. theaugh, I'm not not thea.a. thea. thea. that's not not not not not that's that's not not that's that's rejection. The fear of rejection, I do think that's real because it's also like, what, I'm black, I gave you a white ass a chance, but it was definitely rooted in how will we relate to each other.

And I don't know if we can. But you know, that idea is definitely something that is 20 years ago because, you know, the culture divide isn't as big as it was. I've seen white, we I wee I wee I wee I wee I'm wee I'm wee I'm wee I'm wee I'm th, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like I'm like, I'm like I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm th. I'm th, I'm th, I'm th, I'm th, I'm th, I'm like, I'm like, th, I'm like, that th, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I've that th, th. th. th. that is 20 years ago because you know the culture divide isn't as big as it was. I've seen white people twea and I think we've we've come together. We've all seen white people twea. Jennifer how much is on the dating companies, these these dating app companies to be more transparent about what they're doing like with the algorithm do they owe us the right of of transparency and if they changed it how it it it it, how th it, how th it, how that, how that, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th th th th th th the the the the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, we've thi, we've thi, we've thi, we've thi, we've thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th, we've th, we've th, we've th, we've th, we th, we thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to to to to to to to toeeeei toei toei toei toei toe toe thi thi thi thi thithey're doing, like with the algorithm. Do they owe us the right of transparency? And if they changed it, how would that impact the user experience? Yeah, I think our first instinct is to always go for the platforms and say, the platforms

need to change, I need to do this and that. Given the fact that since 2013, the primary way that relationship start, the United States, through digital market places, the dating market, that is a primary way now that relationship start. Why do we want corporations to be running this space? So that's one thing that we really unpack in this book, which is our corporations, for-profit corporations, going to have an interest in bettering society, and, you know, helping to have an interest in bettering society and, you know, helping to eradicate racism. It's not necessarily profitable to do so.

Surveillance, capitalism is a big part of many platforms, you know, our data is sold to third parties. And some of the data that we put in our profiles and the kinds of very intimate interactions we have online, that's incredibly lucrative to companies. It's also incredible data to have on someone. I do have ideas, lots of people have ideas and how platforms could improve and I'd have I'd happy to go over what some of those are. I think there are small changes but I think that they could make a difference as well. Well you know like I love DeManna's perspective on, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the the the the the the the the the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, like, like, like, th, th, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, th, th, th, th is, thi, thi, th is, thi, th is, th is th is th is th is, th is, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th is th is th is th is th is th is thi, thi, thi, that's that's that's that's that's that's that, that, that, that, that that that that that,, like, I love DeMana's perspective on, you know, this very human perspective,

we need to look inward. That race has so little to do with finding a mate and to really think about why we say we have racial preferences. I would love to see more of that kind of instruction or advice as part of the setup when people are creating their profiles. I think there's a lot of contextual data of, you know, just pro-tips from the platform that could help daters as they put together their information. I also think, you know, we'll be talked about algorithms before, right? It would be great if, A, we at least knew what went into the algorithms...... to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, their, to, to, their, to, to, their, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to say, their, their, their, to, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to, to, to, to, to, toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. their, their, their, their, be great if, A, we at least knew what went into the algorithms, you know, so daters could say, oh, I want to go to a, you know, a platform that doesn't use

race and the algorithm or doesn't use past racial behaviors as a way to then create what I see. Some people have experimented in, you know, small apps with a reset button for algorithms so that your past history doesn't influence how the algorithm continues. I also also th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi that that thateateateateateateate thate thate tho tho tho tho-a tho-a tho-a tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooan. toeateateateateateatea. to thate. doesn't influence how the algorithm continues. I also think it would be really useful for platforms to collect information on how many people flag others for racist commentary to them as a data. And even, you know, this is probably going too far by many people's perspectives, but being able to not just rate, say, someone's attractiveness and, you know, overall, you're experienced with them, but also to be able to say, this person,

you know, asked me if I like black chocolate and sent me a dick pick, you know, to be able to like have some kind of more like user-mediated sanctioning, I think would be a step. As someone who works with OK, Kupid, I think those are all th. th. th. th. thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thi thi thi thi thi thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be a to be a to be a to be a their their their the. thr-s. their the. their theat their theat their theat toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. someone who works with OKCupid, I think those are all great ideas. And I also want to remind people about personal, I don't want to say responsibility, but just how much personal power they have to shift the way that the apps are in service to the user. Also, a lot of people don't use the tools that are already there to be able to block and report. And th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho th. I I I I I I I I I I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I that. I the. the. the. the an thea. thea. thea. thea. to thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. I'm thea. I tha. Also, a lot of people don't use the tools that are already there to be able to block and report. And this is something that I'm always telling my Dates and Mates podcast listeners.

If somebody calls you a racial slur, don't just get disgusted and turn off the dating app and say, I don't want to be here because someone said this thing, you need to report it. And we take it. Okay, keep the reports, the reports, their, their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. to keep, th. th. th. th. to keep th. th. th. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to. to. to. the the the their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their.a. their. toe. toe. toe. toe. to. to., okay keep it, we take those reports very seriously and as you said, as reports like that line up, then we see a trend, that's when an algorithm or a feature, a feature gets released or an algorithm gets changed. And just one last thing I'll say, what I also do with my clients is if they've experienced sexual racism, I encourage them to not internalize that or assume that means everyone on the app or everyone in dating or everyone of that culture to really focus on the place that you're getting the love.

So even as a black woman, I was able to find love on a dating app. And I'm not worried about the nine people that didn't write me back. I'm worried about the one that had the right the right the right the right the right the right the right the right the right the right the right the right the right the right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, the right, th right, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii.e worried about the nine people that didn't write me back. I'm worried about the one that had the right kind of intention, shared my values and my goals for the future and those predictors of long-term compatibility. I've always wish that dating apps would at some point, based on the phone numbers that are tied to the account form,

some sort of no-fly list, if you will, of racism and jerks and abusers and like anything of that nature. Like if you're no good on OKCupid, then you should be no good on every other site. Bumble E Harmony Match. All of them should ban you for acting a fool. You should be banished to Craigslist personals. You know what's happening? People are just like putting you on blast on Tick-Tock.

Like, that's the West Elm Caleb. You can't get a day ever again. Tender Swindler. Well, thank you all so so much for the wonderful, wonderful conversation on this. I'm going to now log into a dating app like Ronnie and join all of them and see what happens. But again, sign up as a white male. I'm signing up as a rich white man.

Yeah, you know what, yeah, bring me on that date to meets podcast. I'll talk to you, we'll figure out what the hell going on. Come through. Give me, give me just like 20 minutes and two apps and we're good. We find that white girl from Apple Bees from 20 years ago and be like, hey, what's it going on? Listen. All right, thank you all so so much for going beyond the scenes. Thank you. Thank you.

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