The Daily Show: Ears Edition - How The Matilda Effect Removes Women in STEM From History | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

The Matilda Effect was coined in 1993 and explains the phenomenon of women’s historical contributions to science getting forgotten over time. These women are not only left out of history books, but also subjected to men taking credit for their work. Daily Show writer Nicole Conlan and host of the podcast Lost Women of Science, Katie Hafner, join Roy Wood Jr. to uncover why women and girls get overlooked in the sciences and how this can be improved through representation and exposure. Original Air Date: March 21, 2023 Beyond the Scenes is a podcast from The Daily Show. Listen to new episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts, or watch at YouTube.com/TheDaily Show  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, what's up here's edition, listener? It's Roywood Jr. Corresponded for the Daily Show. You're about to hear an episode of one of our original Daily Show podcast Beyond the Scenes, hosted by Yours Truly. It's the show where we dive deeper into segments and topics from the show with the show's writers, producers, and experts. In this episode, we're talking about phenomenal and forgotten women in STEM. I'm joined by Daily Showwriter Nicole Conlon and hosted the podcast Lost Women of Science,

Katie Haffner, to take a closer look at the historic contributions women have made to science, the discouragement women facing the male-dominated field, and how we can encourage more young girls to embark on STEM careers. Hope you enjoyed. And if you like the show, check out the Beyond the Scenes podcast, wherever you get your podcast. Where have you got this podcast, where you can get that podcast? We'll get both podcasts. Stop t Scenes. The podcast that goes deeper into topics that we talk about on the Daily Show.

This is what you got to think of this podcast is. The Daily Show is the football game. This podcast is the tailgate. It's the barbecue. It's the party and outside the stadium. It's the liquor that you snuck into the stadium because it wasn't in a glass bottle with a metal top, which we all know metal detectors can detect. You gotta put that liquor in a plastic zip lock bag and sip it through the little rello and green seals.

It's women's history month. And so we're going to be talking a little bit about a segment we did on the show recently about women that have been forgotten in STEM and the way history overlooks them. This originated based on a sketch that we th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theck theck theck theck theck theck theck the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the their the the th and the way history overlooks them. This originated based on a sketch that we did when Sarah Silverman was guest hosting and she took on the role of mad scientists, Dr. Insidia. Give me the clips. When you ask people about the greatest female scientists of the 20th century, they'll give you the same names. Marie Curie, Jane Goodall, Octavia Spencer. But they always leave out the most important person.

Dr. Raquel Incidia, the world's evil, Dr. Incidia was a relentless pioneer. She put Genghis Khan's brain into a chimp. She made Kentucky disappear. All of it. For three years, no Kentucky. She put a man on the moon as punishment. His body's still up there. Unfortunately in the 1950s, the mad sciences were dominated by men.

So Dr. Insidia faced a lot of sexism. One time, she shrunk the Prime Minister of Latvia and trapped him in a jar. They gave her a $2 million ransom. The next week, a male mad scientist kidnaps the same Prime Minister. They give him $4 million and a guest spot on Ed Sullivan. Same Prime Minister, same jar. You tell me how that's not sexism. To help us get deeper into the weeds on this conversation, we're joined by Daily Showwriter Nicole Connolly. How are you doing? I'm good, how are you, Roy? Welcome inside the wonderful podcast studios

here at our multi-million dollar undisclosed location. I'm not allowed to say, well, yeah, legal department start tripping. We're also joined today by journalists and host of the podcast, Lost Women of Science, Katie Haffner. Katie, welcome to be on the scenes. How do you do? Oh, how do you do? Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, we're over here in New York. I know you're over there in California. I'm not sure if it's mudslide, snow or forest fire week over there,

but whichever week it is, I hope you're being safe. I'm actually in my rowboat this morning, because it's raining in biblical ways. Okay, so Floodweek it is. Let's dive right into this topic. You've spent, you know, almost all of your career covering technology and women who work in the STEM field. What are some of the disparities that stick out for you, you know, that you've seen in your coverage? Because, you know, when you really think about erasure, and then there's also bias on to' th th th th on th on th on th on thoe on thiiasure and then there's also bias on top of that.

Just talk a little bit about, you know, a little bit of the erasure that you've seen. Yeah, well, so when I, so I used to cover this, I've covered, I mean, the only advantage of being superannuated, which is a fancy word for old, is that I've had a lot of time, like, so what we say at Laws Women of Science is we're not thia, thia, th. thia, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, just, just, just, just, just, just, thi, just, just, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thii. thiiiiiiiii. thiiiii. thii. Just, thi, thi, thi, th lot of time, like a lot of time to get mad. So what we say at Laws Women of Science is, we're not mad. We're curious. OK, we are a little mad. So when I was working on this topic for the New York Times, which I did for years, I wrote about 30 years ago, I wrote a story that was called

woman, computer nerd and proud. And I looked at what it was among these three young women at MIT who were computer scientists, like where did they get their moxie? Like, how did they get beyond all that macho crap that MIT throws at you? And a lot of it had to do with the support they were getting. And then I did a follow-up, because I was at the Times forever 10 years later, and then 10 years later again. Anyway, I won't even tell you how long I did these follow-ups for.

But what you find is that this pipeline, this famous pipeline is real. You know, along the way, they bump into obstacles and especially in fields like computer science and physics. The sciences like biology and are easier for women. But there's just something about this feeling, this it's partly imposter syndrome. It's partly just plain being told you can't do it. So that's the discouraging, that's the discourage part and then the erasure part is what we do at Lost Women of Science. I mean these women, Roy, these women have been absolutely obliterated from history. In fact, I, I, I say to my husband, honey, you empty the dishwasher.

I am busy snatching women from the jaws of historical obscurity. And that guy, he's got a job. So there are, oh, I brought Kleenex and started, in case I start to cry, because, uh, I'm kidding. I don't usually cry about this. because, I'm kidding. I don't usually cry about this. So, however, we have this database. I mean, enough already with Marie Curie. Like, I'm done with her. I mean, great, great job.

Thank you very much. But, and Rosalind Franklin, there are so many more. I mean, for every Marie Curie, there are hundreds. We have this database. We have binders full of women who have not been given the recognition they deserve through history. And it is, it pisses me off. And that's what we do at Lost Women in Science.

What was it about seeing those women at MIT that made you go, wow, how did they get there? What were the hurdles that you believe they had to overcome? And how early in a woman's matriculation through life do those hurdles start to present themselves? Wow, I love that. A woman's matriculation through life? Can we start using that as long as I can start using super annuated? Yeah. I'm going to go home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home home tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the thi tho tho tho thoes thoes th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. thea. thea. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. Can we start using that? Is it okay? We can start using that as long as I can start using superannuated. Yeah. I'm gonna go home today and be like, sweetheart, I think we need to throw away the milk. It's superannuated. Isn't that a great word? I mean, I don't usually use expensive words, but my gosh, that's a good one. I'm sorry. So okay, yeah, your question was the origins of the it's just from time and memorial I mean think so women

for some reason you know have been screwed since the very beginning and especially when it comes to natural curiosity about the world around us and a lot of times it was the women doing the, let's just kind of call it the secretarial work where they were actually doing the science itself. There are a lot of couples, famous men who were married to women who actually did the work. And the men took credit for it. I don't know, you tell me, Roy, you've got the Y-chromosome. I, I the work. And the men took credit for it. I don't know, you tell me, Roy, you've got the Y chromosome. What is it? You know, we got to put y'all in y'all place,

you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I know, right? I mean, that was our place. And that's what science is all about. Didn't Watson and Crick have, wasn't the tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, tho, tho, tho, the, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, tho, tho, tho, thoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, too, tho, what science is all about. Didn't Watson and Crick have, wasn't there also a woman? That's the Rosalind Franklin. That one, darn it. You said no more of her. No more of her.

I know, right? So that's the only one you can think of. But break that down for the people who aren't familiar with that story. Right. OK, so there were Watson the Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson Watson they are the ones who discovered the structure of DNA in the 1950s. They got the Nobel Prize, just saying. And she was a chemist, an x-ray crystallographer, and so she had these images, these actual images of the double helix.

And she just got shunned in his side and then she died. You know, not that that was her fault, but you can't actually award a Nobel Prize posthumously, so she was dead. But there was no credit given to her at the time. It's a little bit controversial about whether she actually deserved it. The point is that Nicole is making Two important things Nicole. That's what comes to mind is the whole Watson Creek thing But do we know any other examples? Well, we should we should know dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens and you know shame on us that we don't but I would be happy to like list a bunch. We could be here for days. Where does unfair... We need to do a two-part episode. Where does unfair compensation and sexual harassment

come into play as well because you also I would imagine you have to persevere like, like, you're doing work you're not getting credited for. Also while doing the work, somebody's trying to grab your booty and then they're also paying your 30 cent on the dollar. What is it about... Should we talk about the booty first or the dollar? Well here's the bigger question is in your study of all of these women that stay dedicated to these jobs in spite of all of those hurdles what do you think it was that kept them the the the the their their their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. the the the the the the the the the the to to be. to be. to be. their. their. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. toe. toe. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. I I I I I their. I their. I their. I their. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's their their their their their their th. the. th. the. toea. th. toe. their their their th. their their their their their their their that stay dedicated to these jobs in spite of all of those hurdles, what do you think it was that kept them there? Why did the MIT women remain? Why did they keep doing the work? Yeah, well not to like rag on MIT, but while we're at it we might as well.

So this amazing book, it just came out called The Exceptions by Kate Surnike is all about MIT and a lawsuit That was brought against MIT by a bunch of women in the 1970s, which is relatively recent. I'm sorry that so the lawsuit was brought that brought in the 90s, but this was happening to them in the 70s at MIT. What Kate says in the book is that women felt lucky. They felt lucky. Women who were doing basically the shit jobs, can I say shit? Oh yeah, I can say all that shit.

The women who were doing these shit crap jobs as basically glorified secretaries, but doing the science, they felt lucky to have any job at all in the sciences. So just to be... Oh, and they were hit on. Did I mention that yet? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So then it's the price of... They looked at the harassment and the lack of conversation and the lack of credit as the price of being a trailblazer into these fields? I don't even think that, you know, that's such a good question. I don't even know if they considered themselves trailblazers. They just loved doing the science. I don't even know if they were resentful, that they were doing a lot of the, a lot of the basic science that went into some really important discoveries. So, Nicole, as best you can, in this building, you take something that's sad where, you know,

you got to have a tissue on deck at all times in case you cry about it, in talking with Sarah Silverman about this piece, which ironically, here's a funny daily show story, first time I saw Sarah Silverman in the building was when she was in character for the mad scientist sketch. Good. And what a way to meet somebody? She's got the Dr. Frankenstein wig. She had that big electrified afro situation going on. Because Katie, if you're not on a piece, you're generally not in the loop on what else is happening. So you're like, what is going on in this room? Yeah. It's not even your weak. Why are you here? Yeah. But why, how did you all settle on a sketch? Because in the sketch, who's work is stolen and credit, a man gets credit for it? Yeah. Why sketch versus, say, a Phil piece versus having Sarah just talk about it at the desk? I used to write for the late show Stephen Colbert and originally this was a piece that I had

pitched there. And I had, I would love to say it's because I'm an incredible feminist, but really what happened is I was like, oh shit, I need something to pitch today. And that day happens to be national women and girls in STEM day. So I was like, what can I pitch for this? And everything, like, there's so many like really sad issues about women in STEM. And I was like, I don't know how to make any of this funny. But the idea of like, what's like a kind of science

that we don't talk talk to Stephen. So the way that it appeared in the Daily Show is it's kind of like a Ken Burns style documentary about this fictional character, whereas the original version I wrote would be for her to be in studio talking to the host. And then I pitched it in 2019 and as you know, this was the height of the Trump administration where it was like, every day was like, we don't have time for anything.. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th th th th th th. And th. And th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th. th. th. th. th. th. thi th. th. th. th. th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind kind th. th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's to to to to to to th. It's to to to be th. I to be th. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I'm. I'm th. thi. I th. thi. I thi. I th. I th. I the height of the Trump administration where it was like, every day it was like, we don't have time for anything else. Every day at 3 p.m. he would do the craziest thing you've ever you ever seen. And be like, it's, we can't, we have to get rid of everything that we've written and write something new. So I've had the sketch on deck for a long time. And every time we've read believed in this sketch because even though it's never been on air I'm like I know it's funny and so I

pitched it again here I know everybody's saying it's not funny but I know it's funny it's funny it's funny thank you and then so we got here and I sent it into like our pitch email list with the caveat of like I know this is like not we don't really do character interviews on our show, but I have this sketch. Do you guys want it? And then Sarah saw the pitch and she really wanted to do it as a, that Kenburn style documentary,

which makes sense, one, for her sensibility, as like a former sketch performer, and it makes more sense for a show. And so I did like a full revamp of the saaaa, and a thia, and a thia, and a thia, and a thia, and thian, and thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, th. thi, thi, and, thi, thi, and, thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi, thi, the the thi, thi, thi, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha. tha. tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, the th it ended up being really fun because then we got a lot of funny visual gags that we couldn't have gotten before. See years later, vindicated. That's how you do. You never like, because I know that had to feel good. It's good to finally get your shit on the air. I've got a pitch that was approved in 2015.

We're going to court board in my office. It's called White Baseball. And it's just, listen, I know that's not what we're here to talk about. But it's a piece about how a lot of predominantly black colleges have predominantly white baseball teams and the reasons why the lack of minority, whatever, whatever. It was approved to go out the door, Katie. Two weeks later, Trump was elected. He has ruined so many of my sketches. Aside from what he's done to America, Katie, I have a question for you, and you may not know

the answer to this, but as we're trying to improve and get more women into the sciences and math and engineering, what are the metrics by which we've decided we're succeeding or failing at that? Is it simply numbers of people, you know, graduating from college or who, you know, make a living in STEM or are there other, because like, I, you know, as a woman in comedy, it's certainly much easier now than it used to be, and I think it's way easier than it is in the sciences, but I know that like now there's more women in comedy than ever, but a lot of the issues issues th is issues th is issues th is issues th is issues th is issues th is issues th is th is thi issues thi issues thi issues thi issues thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thri, thri. thri. thri. thri. thri. throooooooooooooooooooo, thi, their, the, the sciences, but I know that like now there's more women in comedy than ever, but a lot of the issues they face are no longer things that are, they're like a little bit trickier to tease out and like we're so much further than we were, but now it's harder to get over that last hurdle because it's little insidious things that.

It's more hidden and it's more like micro-aggressions that aren't like, you know, working here is very good, but elsewhere. So the shorter version of that is, how are we deciding that we're making progress and succeeding at getting more women in science? So yeah, the numbers speak for themselves, and those are followed pretty closely. And so we know we're making progress in a lot of the different STEM stuff. By the way, could we just say what STEM stands for? Nobody knows anymore. It's science, technology,

engineering, and mathematics. Math, yes. I keep thinking it's medicine, but it's not. But it's not men. It's definitely not men. Okay, science technology. Okay, engineering and math. Yeah, that's my other guess. that's the numbers are creeping up and that's the numbers. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st st. st st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st st st st st st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st st st st st st st st st st st st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. st. Engineering and math. Okay, continue, continue. And so the numbers are creeping up and that's really good. And but some of the places where the numbers are not are staying stagnant and very frustratingly so are is computer science, which is what I've been covering forever. And I don't know what it is, but they just stay at like 20% of graduates. And so there's a wonderful program at Northeastern called the Center for Inclusive Computing,

which really looks at kind of the root cause of all of this. And what it is that's actually happening in the classroom, where women, or the actual programming languages that get taught, you know, really trying to do, try, like, like, like, like, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the in the classroom where women or the actual programming languages that get taught, you know, really trying to, as you say, tease apart some of the nuances here as early as elementary school, teachers, because a lot of computer science is math, teachers get video recorded. because they swear computer science is math. Teachers get video recorded because they swear they call on the girls just as much, but when you do the video of them and show them the video, they're calling on the boys.

And they, and then they are shocked. Everything you're talking about is so extensive to the point that now there's a term for like if you're a woman and your work is erased by a man it's called the Matilda effect I think that having putting a name to it helps to make people believe that it is a real thing I don't know what it is about humans but we have to like no it's there's causation and thus therefore and we have the data. And then people go, oh you're right, I am unconsciously sexist. I didn't know that. Thank you for that. So break down the Matilda effect a little bit for everyone

and exactly what that is and how that came to be. This is this wonderful woman named Margaret Rossiter. She's been studying the history of women in science and has generated these two huge volumes of women in science. And she's at Cornell, and she is the one who coined the term the Matilda Effect. Matilda was Matilda Jocelyn Gage, who was a suffragist in the 1800s, who wrote a pamphlet actually about women as inventors. And so this, think about it, this was in the 1800s, she wrote this, pretty amazing. And women as inventors who get kind of overshadowed, shunted aside, whatever you want to say, by men.

And so what Dr. Rossiter decided was to put a name to the phenomenon of, when a discovery happens and the man takes credit. And the woman played as large if not a larger role than the man. This Matilda effect is, it's everywhere and it's throughout history and it still happens today. How receptive are people to this new information when you present it? You know, we live in a age of trying to write a lot of history that was written by biased people, you know, and we also live in an age now where they're trying to write a lot of history that was written by biased people, you know And we also live in an age now where they're trying to undo anything new you try and put in a history book Don't you dare we what we've been learning is right. I can't learn new shit. Please stop?

So how receptive are people when you bring this new information, you know, and I stop short of calling it revisionist history, it's history. Like it's just... Yeah, we say we're, we don't say we are correcting the historical record. We say we are revisiting the historical record. I know, isn't that smart? I wonder if I thought of that. Two words. I got two words. I know. So yeah, people are incredibly receptive. In fact, we have a lost women of science hotline, the emergency line, emergency. Are you a woman who's had your work taken from you? No, no, they're dead. All our women are dead by the way, so they can't speak for themselves. So it's people who call in the hotline and say you have to know about this woman who got screwed by history. And amazingly enough, a lot of them are men, which is who call in, which is great.

Relatives, co-workers, like, what is their relation to the people they're calling about? People in the field who know that it was a woman who did this. I know. Doesn't that restore your faith in men? In men? In some men? I don't know. I know a lot of men. I don't have faith in all of them. After the break, I want to get a little bit more into the roots of this and how you two ladies are experiencing life now as women's in your field. That's a word I just made up. It's not as eloquent as your word, but I'm going to use it. It's women's month on Beyond the Scenes. We'll be right back. Beyond the Scenes, welcome back. We are talking about the erasure of women in STEM and Katie and Nicole have been walking me through all of this and showing me all the ways that men take credit for all the shit that women been doing at the job, how dare you, stop it.

Now, you two are very interesting to me in the sense that you all have figured out outlets for, for change in the issues that you've identified. You know, Katie, you have your podcast where you talk about this very issue a lot. But Nicole, I'm gonna start with you first. And because it's interesting, because as a comedian, it's, oh, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that. But Nicole, I want to start with you first. And because it's interesting because as a comedian, it's, oh, that's sad. How can I make that funny? How can I make people laugh at it so they can then figure out the truth. And aha, you're laughing. Gotcha, motherfucker. You just learned something. how do you face the stark reality of women in science getting overlooked and then go I know how to make that funny because I'm Yeah, I'm delving that all the time. Yeah, well when I'm not writing for the daily show I work a lot in the climate space and I'm not a scientist but I like I write for my friends like educational climate YouTube channel and And I know, right? Surprise.

She says it on the side. Just yeah, what the earth talking about? Yeah. And so like when you're in the climate space, like it's all bad news. It's just it's all just a bummer. And we have to make for my friend's channel, climate toom, I'm today. Unfortunately, my friend's a man, I'm so th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. to to to to the. that. that. that. the. to to to th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th.......... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. toeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. toe. th. theeee. th. th. the the th. th. to make it funny. It's a comedy YouTube channel. And I think the best piece of advice that I ever got about that was from Tom Purcell,

an executive producer at Colbert. And his advice was, there's a story about Mr. Rogers, where after 9-11, kids were coming to him and they were like, how can we handle this? You know, this is like, how can we continue going in the world world world world world world and Mr. Rogers' advice is like look for the helpers children look for the helpers and Tom Purcell was like when we're writing about something that's a bummer look for the non-helpers look for the people who are making it worse look for the people who

are doing something stupid or bad or wrong and like that's what you direct your anger at. So when that comes to climate it's like So when that comes to climate, it's like obviously people who are like passing bad legislation or are like starting misinformation campaigns. And with women in STEM, it's, you know, this sketch is sort of the exception because this sketch was just like, what is the silliest possible version that I can do of this? But it plays in the area of a little bit, it's a little bit like when, you know, there's some other, a woman commits some other major crime and everybody is like, she gets prosecuted and everybody is like, well, the woman gets prosecuted and not, not the men, this is classic sexism. It's like, I don't think the woman should

not be prosecuted for like, you know, shooting, murdering somebody. I think the I thi the thin the woman is the woman is the woman is the woman is the woman is the woman is the woman is the woman is that is that is that is that is that is that is the woman is that is that is the woman is the woman is the woman is the woman is the woman is the woman is, the woman is the woman is, the woman is, the woman is, the woman is, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, the woman, thi, thin, I'm, thin, I'm, thin, thin, I'm, thin, the the the the thr-I. I's, the the thee. the the the. the the. the the the. the the the the the the the the the the men don't. And so I wanted to play in that area of like a woman who has committed horrible crimes facing sexism but like maybe like we should pay attention to her crimes also. But when we're I'm communicating broader hard issues what I try to think about is like who are the who are the bad guys and how can I make tho thoo thoan thoo. they. they. they. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to to thi. thi. to the th th th th th th th thi th thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to to to to to to to to to toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toea. toea. toea. to to to to to to to to thea. thea. thea. thea. the. the. that bad issue. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes perfect sense. So then I would say to the converse, Katie, then your work is about finding the helpers or helping the helpers posthumously.

When we talk about a lot of the names that you've discovered from the 30s and the 40s and the 50s, and you know, the good old days of women's rights as I like to as a man. When they were called women slippers. Yeah. Oh no that was that didn't even start till the 70s. There was no word. No. There were the suffragists. Yeah. So during that time where you know women were definitely had not yet breached a lot of the legislation that we have today. Who were some of the names and people that th. th. th. th. the th. the th. the the th. the the th. the the people th. the the th. the th. the the the th. th. the they were they were they were they were they were they were they were the women they were women the women. they were women they were women they were women they were women they were women they were women they were women they were women they were women. they were women. they were women. they were women. they were women. they were women. the women. they were women. the women. their. their. their. their. their. their. their breached a lot of the legislation that we have today. Who were some of the names and people that you discover, you know, that surprised you, you know, during that time? Who were some of those helpers? Well, first of all, I don't even know if I want to call them helpers. I want to call them the doers. So one of the most moving women we found was this woman named Dorothy Anderson, who is

the subject of our first season. A physician in the 1930s, she wanted to go into surgery, but surgery was closed to women. Let me just stop her sick. Roy, do you get, are you surprised by anything I'm saying, like when I tell you things like surgery was closed to women, are you just, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, this all tracks. I've read enough about racism to believe that there are other horrible forms of oppression.

Like, yeah, and what is this racism happening and everything else was gravy. Yeah, well, I know. And our hero in season three, just to digress for one sec, is this amazing black engineer named Wai Clark, who I just love her. We just fell so in love with her. So she had a whole, you know, double whammy being a black scientist in the 1940s. But anyway, back to Dorothy. So Dorothy Anderson couldn't get into surgery because she was a woman. She ended up becoming a pathologist because, in fact, patients, people didn't want to see a female doctor. So women, female physicians back

then tended to work behind the scenes. They could deliver babies and they did things like pathology and radiology, which is you don't see the doctor. So she became a pathologist at Columbia, babies hospital, and she was doing an autopsy, which is what pathologists do, and this baby had been diagnosed with celiac, and so it was very common for celiac to be the diagnosis when it was actually something very different, and she figured out what it was, and it was cystic fibrosis. So she is the one who first discovered cystic fibrosis and named it and was completely forgotten. And some guy is thought to be the one who discovered it.

Because he wrote the journal review and they go, Oh, the whole thing. So she is our, I guess our prototype. She's our, you know, she's the one we hold up as, and we didn't even, you know, we found an old biography, a manuscript in somebody's basement in Connecticut that had never been published. And we use that as our guide. And, uh, it was really, the the, and it, oh, the, the the the the the the the whole, oh, oh, oh, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, oh, the whole, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, th. Oh, the whole, th. Oh, the whole, the whole, the the the the the the whole, the the the the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, the whole, tho, tho, the whole,'s basement in Connecticut that had never been published, and we used that as our guide. And it was really, it was an amazing, an amazing season to put together. And then there's, let me just tell you this, one other thing about that is that there was

a portrait of her that was painted and commissioned by either Columbia or the Cystic Fibrosiness Foundation, which was hanging in the lobby of babies hospital for years and disappeared. And so we did an entire episode called the dude wall which is actually Rachel Madhouse. She coined the term the dude wall when she was giving a talk at Rockefeller University and she's going into the auditorium and she's like, what's like, what's what term the dude wall when she was giving a talk at Rockefeller University and she's going into the auditorium and she's like, what's with the dude wall? And so it's all these, you know, old white men on these walls and and Dorothy's portrait was never found. Was it replaced?

Yeah, it was taken down at some point and up went the dude wall and Dorothy's portrait is gone and it's beautiful We have a photo of it. We can't at least print a J-Pag replica and put that? No, no, we have we I know I know I know good good Katie. I need some good news. Where are my tissue? I need to go here. What's interesting about what you do, so I did an episode of Finding Your Roots, shout out to Dr. Henry Lewis Gates. What I discovered on that show is how extensive it is to find out shit about people. Like it's one thing to trace your family's history, but you're trying to trace the employment history and accomplishments of people for which there's even less paperwork. Oh my gosh, and they thought that they had such low self-esteem.

They never, they didn't leave their papers to, so that we have, we can't find their papers. So this journey of finding all of these interesting, that someone calls the hotline gives you the name and to do a podcast you have to do extensive research on these people this isn't just you plug in a mic and go let me tell you about this shit I heard yes no no no that's what we do right no no we yeah okay so then within that process how do you stumble on the fact that one of your blood relatives who you descended from Is one of the people that you're fighting for? How did you discover that? Oh, you mean my grandmother? Yes, how did you get to that place?

So last summer I was, um, just, you know, hanging around twiddling my thumbs and I thought what if, what about my grandmother? I think she did something? And so I googled her name and I saw that th, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, the people, the the, thi the the the the the the the the the the the people the people the people the people, the people, the people, the people, the people, the people, the people, the people, the people, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, the people, um, um, um, um, the people, um, the the the the the the the the the th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, thea, thea, theat, theat, theat, thea, theat, thi. thi. thi. their, their, their, their, thumbs and I thought, what if, what about my grandmother? I think she did something. And so I googled her name and I saw that the Leona Zacharias papers are held in a special collection at MIT and Harvard, which is the two places where she worked. I thought, what did she do? And so I got in tou tou the archivists, bless their hearts, these women, so a lot of these institutions are actually going back and looking for women. And I said, you know, I want to know what's in the files of my grandmother, Leona Zacharias, and they started to tell me, and I'm like, holy shit, she was really smart. So she got her PhD from Columbia in Biology in 1937, which is a long time ago. My grandfather, who was a famous physicist, got all the attention. So the only career we ever heard about growing up was his.

She worked on something called retrolental fibroplasia, which was this mystery in the 1940s, where babies born with perfectly fine eyesight then went blind and the question is what's causing it. Stevie wonders maybe the most famous example of that and she was one of the team trying to figure out the cause. And nobody knew this, that she was instrumental in this. And when I was at the, I went to visit the archives and I'm sitting there with the papers and I come across this one paper and on the front of the paper, one of the men of the paper, it was one of the men on the paper wrote to Leona

the real author of this paper. And I'm like, oh my God. And I know. And so it's now called retinopathy of prematurity, it's still a problem, but for different reasons. But yeah, and the cause, well, I'm not even going to tell you the cause of this. Stevie Wonder can tell you the cuppers. When we talk about the stereotypes that, you know, women like your grandmother had to deal with back then, how much of a difference would you say there is between the stereotypes in those 30s, 40s, and 50s versus the MIT, the three MIT women that you wrote about, Stephanie Winner, Ellen Spurd is Megan Smith. The stereotypes from the 30s to the 90s to now that, you know, and we'd love for both of you to speak on that.

You know, we talk a little bit about things being a little more covert, but I would love to drill down a little bit more, that, that, th, th, th, th, th, th, and just th, and just th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, th, th, the thi, they, th, they, they, the the th, the the the the the the the the the they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, theeeee, and thiii. is theeeee, thi. is they, they, they, they, th covert, but I would love to drill down a little bit more and just what you have seen in your research Katie versus Nicole, what you experience now in the workplace. Because I'm sure, like, especially the comedy, it's easy to just throw out a joke and then someone else throws out the same joke an hour later and they go, oh, that's a brilliant joke. And they're going to do the joke, and like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, that's, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, that's, that's, that's, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, that's, that's, oh, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,ecker, I just... I solve that problem by never writing brilliant jokes. I know we want to steal them. It's, it's, well, I mean, it's extra tricky in this environment because we're specifically writing jokes for somebody else for, you know, until I started working here and we've had gas hosts for a man.

So part of literally my job is to write jokes that I will never get credit for. I was pretty lucky that I came up in an era where like a lot of the really overt sexism at least wasn't directed at me. I think honestly I just have the advantage of being pretty tall and pretty confident. And so people... That goes into the looks and stereotype thing that I was talking about. It does. But one thing that, at least in comedy, I would hope that this doesn't apply to the science is so much, is a lot of times for women, like being a good comedian is equated with being like

raunchier and more willing to talk about taboo topics, which is, which, which, which, which, which is, which is, which is, which is to to to thi, which is thi, which is thi, which is thi, and like, and like, and like, and like, and like, and like, and like, and like, and like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, and like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to like talk about taboo topics, which is great and I love the comedians who can do that. I personally am more of a goofball and so I feel like the opportunities that that I get shut out of more for being a woman are weirdly the like ones that you think of as being less sexist because they're because they're just silly and it's's, again, now we're into that area where it's like, I can't point to an example of a man pointing at me and being like, you can't do this because women aren't funny, but I can, I, you know, every once in a while, there will be a situation where I'm like, I think you're not laughing at this because I, because you're not taking me seriously, but I can't ever know for sure. I can't prove. thu thing that I've noticed is if I'm on stage telling jokes, I can't look too polished. If I look really done up, then I get fewer laughs than if I look like a little crummy.

If I wear a hoodie, I get more laughs than if I wear a dress. Yeah, and I don't know why. Because it's also, I don't know that that's true for every woman, but for me specifically, that's what I've noticed. I think that's true across the board and stand up. And it's interesting, I think, as a woman performer, you're also dealing with the stereotypes and insecurities of the women in the audience, as well as the men, like you're being judged by two different reasons, concurrently. And then if you get past that stereotypical gauntlet, is the joke funny? Yeah, yeah.

Katie, what are some of the differences in the stereotypes that you think earlier erased women had to overcome versus some of the more modern-day erasure? Or is there even a difference? Yeah, well, what we were saying earlier about, it's more subtle than it used to be. It used to be just a foregone conclusion that you know women didn't belong in the lab and women like going out on ocean research vessels were not allowed to go. There's a famous woman, luckily she's, her name is beginning to crop up more and more Marie Tharp, who actually mapped the ocean floor,

but she wasn't allowed out on the research vessels because she was a woman. That has changed, you know, that is now a non-issue. The issues, however, so one of you, you talked about the women, and thank you for saying their names. Megan Smith, who went on to a big job at Google, and then became like chief technology officer of the United the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their names. Megan Smith who went on to a big job at Google and then became like chief technology officer of the United States and she had really brilliant mechanical engineer. You know having spoken to these three women, what do you think lit the fire for them to decide to go through that gauntlet to walk over those coals of inequality. They just loved it. You know when you talk about women and write about women there there, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their tho tho their their thoes thoes, thoes, and thoes, and thoes, and their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, and their their, and their, and their their, and their, and their, and th. And th. th. And the the, the, the, the the that thate thate thate thateateateateateateat, thooooooooooooes. theateateat, theat the. know when you talk about women and write about women, there's a famous thing called the Think Biner test. Have you heard

of it? It's a science journalist named Anne Thinkbiner who one day had been writing about women in science for so long. One day she said I'm just so sick of having to write about how they you know manage know, strike a work-life balance or that's the obstacles they had to overcome or even talk about, you know, what their husband does for a living or all the sexism that they've, that they've experienced. And she said, from now on, I am never putting that in a profile of a woman. I'm not even going to say she's a woman. And I know, right? And so we at Lost Women of Science decided we were going to take her on and we were going

to, so we did a whole episode called the think bina test. Because at Lost Women of Science, we flunked it all the time because the test is, if you do any of these things, you flunked our test. And so we interviewed her for the episode and we pushed back on that. I said, it's absolutely instrumental what it is that these women through history had to deal with. It's completely relevant. And she ended up kind of agreeing with us, but the, but one of me, the way that the Finkbiner test got put on the map was at the New York Times, and I actually still do this for the Times, I write, um, obituaries and, um, and one of the obitts of a famous scientist, an actual rocket scientist, the lead, are you ready for this? The lead on that piece was, she made a

mean beef stroganoff. Oh boy. I know. I know. This is why I have also chosen to be a bad cook because then no one can remember me for that. So there was this outcry and the public editor at the paper had to get involved and they revised that lead. I mean that was pretty outrageous but it's like it was not that long ago it was just a few years ago. Well after the break we're gonna bring it home this wonderful discussion. I want to talk with you about possible solutions to this issue. Also I want to talk about how representation of women in the classroom is being an inspiration so the young women can see themselves already doing the thing that they want to do and how that matters and what men can do to finally be a part of the solution.

This is beyond the tip line. Call the lost woman. Should I give you the tip line, call the lost woman. Should I give you the number? Yeah, this is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Beyond the scenes, we're bringing home this wonderful conversation about women and STEM and the contributions they've made and how they are somehow oddly left out of the history books.

And then the credit is taken for by men. Let's talk about men for a second. Katie and Nicole. Katie. If we must. Yeah. I know we don't want to but we must. What do you think keeps men from men in these spaces from fighting for more gender equity? Like what do you think the the pushback is? Is it not being called cool by your friends? Or is it just a boys club? Yeah, I think men in general are a little bit back on their heels these days, especially white men.

In fact, one thing that women say about what's happening these days is that as you see more and more women filling the ranks of scientists around the world, women report that they get these subtle and not so subtle suggestions that the only reason they got the job was that they were a woman at the expense of a more qualified white man. One thing that I will say is I think it's much easier for men or any dominant group to help any non-dominant group when they're simply around them more. You know, my friend who I mentioned is a YouTube channel, Raleigh Williams, he also does like live climate comedy shows, and he's really good about bringing on female scientists because one, it's important to him and two, he just, he knows them. So it's easy for him to call them up and text him.

I met Dr. Iana Elizabeth Johnson, who's a marine biologist who does a lot of work in conservation, she's great. I met her through his show because he went to Columbia and studied climate policy there. And so, like, I think just on like, on like, a very very very very thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to, so like I think just on like a very basic social level there's still you know not a lot of mixing between groups and it makes it hard to you know if you're if your lab is hiring if you like don't know anybody women to text to be like hey are you available to lead I don't know enough about science to say what it was like you, you guys, well, can you do this experiment? This is why, this is why I took up golf. Because it's like this, I have these golf balls and I had them custom made with RBG, a quote from RBG, women belong

where decisions are made. I mean, this is where these, this stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff stuff this stuff this stuff stuff stuff this stuff this stuff stuff stuff this stuff this stuff this stuff this stuff this stuff this stuff, this stuff, this stuff, this stuff, this stuff, this stuff, this stuff, this is where this this stuff gets decided. Now here's the thing I've I've played golf since I was five years old and when you were playing golf the only thing you were thinking is God fucking dares go in the stupid I can't believe this I don't have time to network. Okay well okay well. So but I want to do a big shout out actually to my husband whose name is Bob Wactor who runs, he's the he, I, I, I, I, I, I's the th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I's th, I'm th but I want to do a big shout out actually to my husband, whose name is Bob Wachter, who runs, he's chair of medicine at UCSF, which is University of California, San Francisco, for those of you on the East Coast. He runs this huge department, the Department of Medicine is huge, and he, without ever thinking, um, he hires women who is really amazing how many women work for him

and consider him basically the best boss they've ever had. And it's just because he's so good at seeing good people and hiring wisely. And it's an amazing department at UCSF. Run, I have to say, mostly with the exception of him, by a bunch of women. Give us, give us more of this because I'm feeling optimism now. I'm feeling the need to not cry as much. So I'm gonna try to extract a little more optimism out of you right now. Now, when we talk about representation towards young people so that they don't have the same

stereotypical beliefs where I need to be a woman and I just need to be quiet and make cast roles. The integrated post-secondary education data system, statistics from them, 45% of the people majoring in STEM in 202 is women, Barbie on International Women's Day. I know. They dropped a women in STEM, excuse me, a whole set of women in STEM. And then you have, and correct me if I'm mispronouncing this, it's Carly Closs's code in which it helps young people learn code, correct? Yeah, there's a lot of these, yeah. With the K, Carly Closs's code, which is the good KK-K-K.

I think it's Carly Closses code with Closs's code, which is the good KKK. I think it's Carly Closs's code with Clossy. Okay, four Ks. Specifically to not make it. Okay, oh no, I see the team just sent us a note. Okay, it's called Code with Clossie. Just code with Clossie. K. KWK. That's fine. K. K. That's fine. I got it wrong. Clossie if you're watching. I apologize. I didn't mean to briefly call you to do 3Ks and then 4Ks. It is code with Clossie. So what are some other things that you're seeing that help fight the battle with regards to representation so that the young women coming up don't have the same hurdles to overcome from all the people that you've researched? It's just what you say. It's like every single day you see women doing it. the th. the th. th. th. the women, th. th, the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the the th, th. thi, the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's, th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thri. thri. the thrown, thr thr thr thr thrown, thr thro thro thrown, thr thr thr thr to overcome from all the people that you've researched. It's just what you say. It's like every single day you see women doing it. And it's just not a question. It's just not even a question in your mind that you as a little girl could do that too. Katie, we can end here with your podcast. And I want you to tell us, you know, you've talked about the men who call in. But tell us a the the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi woes thi woes the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the the the thi the thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the the the the the the the the the thea toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooe. the the th to tell us, you know, you've talked about the men who call in, but tell us a little bit about the women who call in.

Tell us a little bit about the listeners and how your podcast helps helps you connect with women, helps educate women about the forgotten women of history. Yeah, so we're a full 501c3 nonprofit initiative where we're also doing children's books. We're just starting on that. We're pulling together a huge resource center where anyone, and we're gonna integrate that with classrooms we hope. And we're partnering with higher ed institutions all over the place to go do these archaeological digs through their archives to find that to to unearth the Carolyn Parkers of the world and it's going to take some real you know human

power to do it. This is not something chat GPT can do. And taking shots at the AI. I like it. Keep going. Yeah, so we're only a couple of years old, but we're really growing, which is, which is nice. And we get a lot of people. I couldn't believe it. I mean, I'm used to having people excited when I show up to report a story that I'm from the New York Times, but when I went to MIT, they said, oh my gosh, lost women of sciences here. Yeah, hell yeah. Oh, and we were a Jeopardy clue, which like you know you've made it when you're a jeopardy clue.

It wasn't us, it was Dorothy Anderson and cystic fibrosis, but there's no way those clue, that clue that clue team would have known about her if it hadn't been for us. What I think is really important about what you're doing is that to your point about women not not hyping themselves up enough, you know, I don't know a lot of mathematicians who love to like do the kind of work that you're doing, but communicating about science, but communicating about science, you know, young women to see women in science it's important to do that work because a lot of the scientists either don't have you know the time between lab work or do mathematicians work in a lab the math lab work they don't have the time

or necessarily the really not math lab not math math math no math math those kind of women in STEM don't necessarily have the time or the inclination to do that work, but we can't, we can't communicate their work without people who are willing to do the research and put it in terms that young girls who might want to go into sciences can understand. So telling those stories isn't important just posthumously or for the people who are still alive, but for the next generation of scientists..... th. the science. to science. to science. to science.. S science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science science. to science. to science. to science. to science. to to to to to to to to science. to science. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. theirthumously or for the people who are still alive but for the next generation of scientists. Well, exactly. And I like to say, let's end with a Joan Didian quote, which is one of my favorite quotes, we tell ourselves stories in order to live.

And I think that's it. We tell these stories in order for these girls to live and do the work they love to do. Well that's as good a place to end as any. Nicole, I thank you. Katie, we thank you and thank you all for going beyond the scenes with us. See you later. Thank you. It was fun.

Technically a meth lab is stem. It is still. I was going to say. We could have gotten into that. That would have been. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. to, th. to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th. th. to, to, thi, th. th. th. th. to, to, to, th. to, th. th. to, th. Well, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to, thi. to, thi. I was going to say, wait, we could have gotten into that. That would have been so much fun, but maybe not. I don't know if you want to research those pioneers yet, but you knock out your 300 first. Listen to the daily show beyond the scenes on Apple podcast, the I-Heart Radio app, or wherever, you get your podcast. Wherever, it don't matter. We're there. there. We're there. the scenes on Apple Podcasts, the IHeart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast. Wherever it don't matter.

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