The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Anders Tegnell Defends Sweden's Herd Immunity Gamble

Episode Date: May 9, 2020

Swedish state epidemiologist Dr. Anders Tegnell discusses his country's controversial "herd immunity" COVID-19 strategy and outlines its metrics for success. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17th. Dr. Tegnell, thank you so much for joining us on the daily social distancing

show. You are chatting to us from a train station right now, is that correct? Yeah, that's correct, a train station in Stockholm, Sweden. Okay, are you, are you commuting? Are you still out and about? Yes, I'm commuting from my home, which is in Lynn Shopping Town, some 200 kilometers to the south. Okay. Sweden is an interesting outlier in the world, where most countries in the world have decided to completely lock everything down, keep people indoors and shut down the country, Sweden has gone for a different approach. Sweden has decided

to keep the country fairly open but require citizens to social distance themselves, to remain responsible, to limit gatherings to below 50 people, and I think, you know, like older people are meant to stay at home, etc. Tell me about what Sweden is doing, and then would you mind explaining to me how Sweden came to that decision to do it differently to everyone else in the world? No, but I think you have made a fair description. Instead of closing it on completely, where I have tried to look at different situations where we know that the spread is most dangerous, like in restaurants. And then we have th th, I thine, we have thine, we have thi, we have thi, we thi, we thi, we thi, we thi, we thi, we thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thiii, thi, th. And then we have regulated saying restaurants, you have to see that you're not crowded. You can no longer serve in bars,

so people sit very close together for a long time. You need to have a social distance between people, so one and a half, two meters between people sitting now, and all of those kind of things. We put a lot of responsibility on the restaurant owners. Another one is the one is that. Another. Another is that. Another is that. Another is that. Another is that we is that we is that we is that we is that we is th, another. Another one is that we have that we have that we have th, th, th, th, thoes. thoes, thoes, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. So, thi. So, th. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, thi. So, is thi. And, is thi. And, is thi. And, is thi. And, thi. thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. And, thiiiiii. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. told everybody to stay home if they feel ill in the morning, even if only slightly ill, stay home. And because, and financially that's being okay since nowadays you get paid, even if you stay home when you're sick from the very first day, which the government changed very quickly. So it's, there is a great incentive of staying home if you feel a slightly ill.

And we have done a lot of things to limit the social context among the elderly, giving advice to them to stay home and stuff like that. So instead of saying close down the whole society, we have looked at society and closed down the aspects of society where we think and we know from other diseases and we've seen in other countries, most of the disease but they stand. And I think that has had has had has had has had has had that has had the that has had that has had there that has had there that has had that has had there thoes thoes that has had thoes thoes thoes thouled thouled thoes their thoes their their their their their their their their to to to tooes tooes tooes tooes tooes tooes toldld told told told told told told told of the disease but they stand. And I think that has had a great effect in many ways. It has enabled our health system to keep on functioning.

It has had other interesting effects, like over Easter, Swedish people travel a lot. Only 10% of the normal travels were done, which is a lot of change. Our yearly epidemic of flu suddenly stopped when we instituted this measures in the middle of the normal way. So in that way it's worked and we have used sort of what we normally use in Sweden when it comes to public health and that's really telling people to take responsibility and take and sort of do the things they think will fit them the best in diminishing the threat to spread the disease to other people. And I think that's historically worked very well.

Tell me about what's happening in Sweden. What have you seen from the numbers in and around the coronavirus? Do you think Sweden has seen the worst of it? I think in Sweden, like in many countries, it's different in different parts of of Sweden, even if it's a small country. I mean Stockholm and the surrounding areas which is about half the population of Sweden slightly less, we have had quite a big number of people being ill in the last two months. While many other parts of Sweden including the big cities on

the West Coast and in the South have had not very many cases at all so far but in Stockholm and the surrounding area we the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. the the th. th. the the the th. th. th. th. th. the th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I'm th. I'm thi. I'm thi. I's thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I th. I th. I th. I th. I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. I's the thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm teea. I'm tea. I'm tea. I'm tea. I'm tea. I'm thi. I'm thi. and in the South have had not very many cases at all so far. But in Stockholm and the surrounding area, we have had a fair amount of cases. We think we are up to about a quarter of the population who has been affected so far. That has been done in a fairly slow manner. So the number of cases have been fairly constant for at least one month by now, which means that the health care who has transitioned a lot, changed a lot. They do very different things today than what they used to do.

But they have been kept on working and they have always been beds free. Everybody in Sweden who needs a hospital bed have gotten a hospital bed for COVID-19 or for other diseases, so it's kept on working. And intensive care has even had at least 20% for the beds free at any given time. So in that respect the strategy has been successful. We managed to keep the level of spread on a level below the threshold of the health system, which I think is one very important part in any kind of strategy. People look at the numbers of countries around Sweden and they go, their death rates is far lower

in terms of coronavirus. Sweden's numbers are higher, but then if you look at other countries like Italy and Spain, etc. They have higher numbers than Sweden, etc. So when you say Sweden is successful, how do you measure that success? Are you just looking at it holistically? What does that mean Sweden is successful? I think we're trying to look at it holistically and I'm not saying we were successful in all

different ways. I mean a death toll is really something we worry a lot about and it's very much related to our elderly people's homes who have proven to be extremely susceptible to this disease and we know that there's a number of things, quality-wise, that needs to be addressed in those, and we are addressing them with a lot of other agencies involved, and we're seeing some improvements. But our deaf told has very much to do with that. In other aspects, it's many of the things I work, I think reasonably well. And I think the good thing is that we've been able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able able that, that, that, that, that, thi and thi and thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, thi, their, to be able, to be able, their, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, they. And, the the the thi, the to be a to be a good, too, too, too, too, too, too. And, too, too, too, too, thea, too. And, too, too, thea, too, is a good, the good thing is that we've been able to keep schools open. Keeping schools open is very important for children and children's health. We know that for sure.

We have been able to keep a lot of people working. We know that losing your work is very dangerous to your health. So we've been trying to take a slightly more holistic approach to this than maybe some other countries have thanne. There have been reports coming out saying that there will be herd immunity achieved, I think, in Stockholm at least over the coming weeks. What does herd immunity mean for you and what are you hoping herd immunity will achieve for Sweden?

I think complete herd immunity, we're not sure any country will ever achieve because that means that the cease goes away and I don't really see this disease going away. But even some immunity in a population like the 20-25% that we are reaching now.. We th th th th th that that that that we will that we are that we are th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, at thi, at th, at th, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, at thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, away and I don't really see this disease going away. But even some immunity in the population, like the 20, 25% that we are reaching now, will have a great effect on the speed of spread. So with that and the measures we have in place, and with immunity going up, I think there is a possibility that we can eased down

on some of the restrictions otherwise that we have so that we by the immunity level of the population can have such a slow spread of the disease that the society can start work more or less normally again. I mean some parts of it will always be at risk. I mean people of elderly people will most likely be always be at risk for this kind of disease and so on but many things we can then ease up a bit on. If somebody said to you Dr. Tegnell you know your numbers we understand your methodology we understand everything you're trying to do but having triple the death rates of countries like nowhere in Denmark means that you know you've put some lives above other lives

do you think that that's a decision epidemiologists s slash governments need to make? Is it an th, is th, i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i i a to make it a to make it a to make it a to make it a to make? If it a to make it a to make it a to make it a to make it a to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. the the the the. the. thei. the. the. the. the. the. thei. the. the. the. thi. Do you think that that's a decision epidemiologist slash governments need to make? Is it an easy decision to make? I'm, you know, because I don't think anybody has the right answer in this regard, but I'd like to know like how you got, how you and your team got to that place where you said, you know what, it's worth the risk, we want kids to be in schools, we want people to still be working and we understand that that might lead us to have a higher death toll initially? No, I don't think, we never really calculated with a higher death toll initially. I must say that that's not right. I mean, we calculated the more people being sick, but the death toll really came as a surprise to us. We really thought that our early homes would be much better with keeping the disease the disease the disease the disease the disease the disease the disease, the disease, their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, threatheir, thirty, threatheir, their, thi, thauil, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, tha, tha, tomomom. We're, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, total, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, together, total, total, total, total, t outside of them than they actually been in here.

Not that Sweden is the only country with this problem. I mean, many countries in Europe have the problem with Adelaideon. So obviously it's very difficult to keep the disease away from there. And even if we're doing our best, it's not, obviously not enough. So we are not putting anybody's life above everybody else's lives. That's not the way we are working. We are really trying to keep public health as good as possible in this troublesome time. That's really interesting, because that's not how it's being reported in many places.

I'm glad you said that. It's interesting to hear it from somebody in Sweden who's part of this directly. Because Sweden is doing something differently, because populations around the world are th w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w w we th, thii, thi, thi, thi, we are working thi, we are working thi, we are working thi, we are working thi, we are thi, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th, we are th. th. We are th. We are working thi, we are working thi, we are working thi. We are working thi. We are working thi. We are working thi. We're thi. We're thiiiiiiiii. We're thiiii. We're thi. We're thi. We are this directly. Because Sweden is doing something differently, because populations around the world are getting agitated, because people are growing in unrest, there's protests, people feel, they want to go back outside, they want to work, etc., etc. People are now using Sweden as the example. If somebody said to you, Dr. Tegnell, people want to take Sweden's model and apply it to a country like America, would you have an opinion on that?

Not really. I mean, I'm sure there are some things from Sweden that can be transferred to other countries and some things are not. I think some things will become increasingly clear. We are feeling more and more confident about closing schools. It's not something that's really going to be to for this kind of disease. It doesn't seem to be very much of remote. The schools doesn't seem to be very much of a motor of this epidemic, like it is in flu epidemics and so on. So some things, definitely. Building up the trusts between the agency and the population and that we have in Sweden is something that takes a long time. The trust level has always been high.

Now it's increasing. We are 70, 80% of the population thinks we are doing a great job. Only like 5, 10% doubt that what we're doing. And we're even finding that people have more, better and better adherence to our guidance. I mean, more and more people are keeping social distance and these kind of things, which is, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which, which is, which is, which is, which is, which is, which is, which is, which is, which is, which is, the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and their, and their, their, their, their, and their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, their, their, their, their, their, and, their, and, and, their, their, and, their, their, and, their, their, their, their, their, their, and, and, and, and, and, and, and more people are keeping social distance and these kind of things, which is actually the opposite of what you see in other countries, that people are revolting against it. Here we see that people are more and more in line with what we want them to do. Right. Well, Doctor, thank you very much for your time. I hope you catch that train. And good luck with the rest of your fights against the virus. Good luck to you. The Daily Show with Covernoa, Ears Edition.

Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central, and the Comedy Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives.

But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17.