The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie on How to Raise a Feminist Child (Rebroadcast)

Episode Date: March 8, 2020

Nigerian author Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie discusses negative stereotypes of feminism, the implications of chivalry on gender roles and her book "Dear Ijeawele." Originally aired on March 7, 2019. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling? But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listened to 60 Minutes, a second- the the the the the the the the the the the the th-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-S-1-1-S-1-1-1-1-1-1-19-1-19-19-19-1 1 1, th. th-19se- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi-19. There thine. There thine. There's thine. thine thine th. There's th. th. There's th. There's th-1. th-1. There's th-1. There's th-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1ccui-c-c-c-c. 0-c. 0-c. 0-c. 0-seauui-s. thccenea-s. There's thi-s. There's thi- gets looked at, that's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look, starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts. Please welcome Chimamandan Gozi Adichie. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm so excited to have you here because I've been a fan of your work for a long time.

I've been a fan of your words for a long time. I have to ask you before we get into the book. As a person who is considered as one of the most foremost feminists of our time. Why is it that so many people see the word feminist as a negative thing? Because I think that feminism has long been associated with the most extreme versions of it. So people think a feminist is sort of a crazy woman who hates men and doesn't shave and... Right? So all of these sort of really crazy negative stereotypes that have been attached to feminism. And so people don't want to associate with it. There are people who've said to me, why do you call yourself feminist?

Why don't you just say you're a humanist or an equalist? But that is what feminism is. Right? Feminism is about justice for everyone. You have to name a problem. And the problem is it's women who've been excluded. So we need to call it what it is. Wow. That's fascinating because that's that's, um... In many ways, that's the same thing people say about black lives matter. Yes. that's the same thing people say about black lives matter. Yes. In many ways that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the same. That's the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same that's the same the same the same the same the same the same the same that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's the same the same the same the same. the same. the same. the same. the same. the same. the same. the same. the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same the same same same same same same same same the same thing. the same same thing is the same same same thing the same same thing the same same thing the same thing the same thing is the same same thing. the same thing is the same same thing. the same the same the samethe rest of the lives matter. The problem needs to be a professional. Yes, yes. The book that you have written here is really different from your other offerings. It's a feminist manifesto in 15 suggestions.

And I like that you keep making it easier and easier for people to be feminists. This is a really interesting book. How did this book come about? So a few years ago I wrote my friend had a baby and so she said to me I won't have to be feminist I want her to be better than mine what should I do? I was like I don't know and then so then I thought I should write her a letter right it was an email that I wrote to her and then I decided to turn it into a book and I made a few changes but really it was for my friend and thrown th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thus thus thus thus the the the the the the. the. the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And the. And to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. I theeeeeeeeeeee. I a baby, my daughter is two and a half, did I realize how easy it is to sort of tell people

what to do about child raising when you don't have a child. Right. It's much easier to deal with a hypothetical child than a real child. But I'm still trying to follow all of the suggestions. It's just that it's more difficult than you would think. What what what what what what w what w what would th w what would the most tho tho thi w w w w w wo thi thi thi is more thi is more thi is more thi is more thi is more thi is more than you would think. What would you say is the most difficult part of teaching a child or raising a child to be a feminist?

You know, it's not that it's easy to do, but it's that you have to fight against, it sort of feels like the universe has a conspiracy against you. So you tell your child, you know, you don't have to play with dolls. But then you go to the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their to play their to play to play th. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy thi. It's easy easy easy easy easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy easy easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's to do. It's the the the the the the the the the the the the to. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It's easy. It. Right. And you know there's still very much that blue and pink binary in the wall and you're trying to teach your child that you know you can be whoever you want to be. So it can feel as though there's a lot that you need to push back. Right, right. You know from the world. But it's doable. I'm very optimistic about how we can change the world. What I've always admired about your words on feminism is that you don't seem to live in a world where it's abstract or it's just extreme.

It never seems to me like you talk about feminism like it's like this is how it is and that's the way it is. Like in the book for instance there are some suggestions where you talk about how you can encourage your daughter if she's a daughter to be anything she wants to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be... I to be. I to be. I to be. I to be. It's to be. I to be. I to be. I the the the the the their, their, the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the their, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I th. I th. I th. I thi. I's thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. I's, thi. I's, thi. I'm thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi. a daughter, to be anything she wants to be, to like blue, to play with boys, toys, etc. But that shouldn't mean that she should shun her femininity. That's not what feminism is. So when people find themselves caught up in a conundrum with feminism, like what is the one thing they could say to themselves that just makes it easier to understand? Think of yourself as an individual. Right. There's no, I think feminism and femininity are not mutually exclusive. I think that the early feminist in the West shone femininity because femininity had for so long been used as a way to put them down.

So women were property. You're supposed to look pretty and stay at home. So I think when women started to push back against that, they were like, we don't want pretty. But I think now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now now thomen now th women th women thomen now th women th women thu thu thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the the the thi. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thin thin. the fomi. I theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeooomi. I theou-a. theou-feou-fefficient thefficient theee. I the. started to push back against that, they were like, we don't want pretty. But I think now we've come to a stage where we can accept that people can be many things, you can be feminine and feminist. It depends on whether you want to be. The problem is if somebody is pushing you to be what you don't want to be, then that's not feminism. So I usually say to women who are thinking about thinkinkinkinkinkinkink. it, just think of your individual self, right? What do you like? And is that thing causing you harm? Right? Is it somehow, is it reducing your spirit? Is it

making you resentful? Because I think that when there's really quality, resentment will not exist. Right? In relationships where people are unhappy because there's a gender problem, there's resentment. If there isn't a problem, you just, you don't have resentment. You kind of know it's intuitive, I think. Right. Would you say then it's still possible for a woman? I mean, I know my mom always says this to me, but some people struggle with the concept. Would you say it's possible for a woman to say, I'm a feminist, I believe in equality, but I still want a man to open, I'm a thian..... thiiii. thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thian, I thi, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th. th, th, th. th. th. th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi. Would thin, thii. Would thiiiii. Would thiiii. Would thi. Would thi. Would thi. Would thi, would thi. I like that gesture or is that problematic in of itself? You know the thing about by the way your mother is wonderful just from reading your book thank you. You're so fortunate to have been raised by heart. Trevor I'm serious.

I think I think everything good in you is because your mother raised me. You know what's funny is now we don't. No, I appreciate that but it and the way you said it is it's a beautiful compliment that sounds like the th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the thi. the the thi. th. the the th. the the th. th. the the the the the the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. things. things. things. things. things. things. things. things. things. I th. th. the. th. I th. I th. I th, but the way you said it is, it's a beautiful compliment that sounds like an insult. You know, it's just like everything good in you is from your mom. The rest of that shit is you and your dad. But yeah, but thank you, but how do you respond to that the door for that, but how do you respond the door for that, but how do you respond the door for the to men and women? I think, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I thin, I th, I thin, I thin, I thin, I there, I there, I there, I the, I the, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I the, I, I, I, I th, I, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thin, thin, thin, thin, thre, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, thre, tha, the the the the the the the the th everyone. Right. I hold the door for men and women. So I think the idea of sort of holding the door for a woman because she's a woman. I have trouble with it.

I'm quite happy for people to hold the door for me, but I hope they're not doing it because of this sort of idea of shivalry. Because shivary is really about the idea that really there are many women who are stronger than many men. Right. Right. So really what I think is that the people we should protect are people who need protecting, whether men or women. Which is also why I sort of have trouble with the idea of women and children, when women

are classified in the same, you know, when there's a traged is the people who are weak, unwell, you know, young, who should leave first. Wow, this is like a more eloquent argument of what some of the guys on the Titanic said. They're like, I think Chimamander would want me to leave with women and children stay behind. But I really do understand what you are saying. There's a fascinating passage in the book. And this was, it's called the seventh suggestion and in this it's, the line, the paragraph starts with, never speak of marriage as an achievement. And then when we skip forward it says when Hillary Clinton was running for president of the United States, the first descriptor on her Twitter

account was wife. The first descriptor on the Twitter account of Bill Clinton, her husband is founder, not husband. Because of this th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi I I I I I I I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the the the the the the the the on the Twitter account of Bill Clinton, her husband is founder, not husband. Because of this I have an unreasonable affection for the very few men who use husband as their first descriptor. Do you think in that moment it made you feel like in society we've created a world where the best thing you can be as a woman sometimes is a wife to a man, but a man can have every other achievement? Was that the problem with that idea for yourself? Yes, yes. But it's also the larger question of what we expect of women in public life. Why? I think that there are many people for whom Hillary Clinton is not relatable unless she primarily defines herself in domestic terms, wife, mother, but wife in particular.

Because I think it makes people feel comfortable, I thi the the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the idea the idea the idea the idea the idea the idea the idea th th th, th, th, th, their th, tho tho thi their thi tho thi thi their problem thoom, thi their problem their problem thi, thi, thi, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, their problem, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiii.e, thi. I, thii. I, thi. I'm, thi. I'm, thi, their, their, th mother, but wife in particular. Because I think it makes people feel comfortable. I think people are very, people don't know what to do with the idea of a woman who has power or who's seeking power. And so the way to somehow temper that is to say, well, wife, I'm a wife, so therefore, I'm not that scary. And it's not, I mean, obviously, I think marriage is a wonderful, marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage, marriage is a wonderful, marriage is a wonderful, marriage is a wonderful, marriage, marriage is a wonderful, marriage is a wonderful, marriage, marriage is a wonderful, marriage, marriage, marriage is a wonderful, a wonderful, a wonderful, a wonderful, a wonderful, a wonderful, a wonderful, a wonderful, a wonderful,think marriage is a wonderful thing and it can be, you know, just such a joy and all of that, but it's that we raise girls to aspire to marriage in a way we don't raise boys to. And I think there's a problem with that.

So you have little girls who, from very early on are thinking about the wedding dress, right? I don't know how many boys think about the wedding tuxedos. Right. Not at all. Yeah, that's true. So what it means is that there's an immediate imbalance, I think, right, in just the idea of what is aspirational. And so I think what we should do is in raising boys and girls, teach them that love is wonderful, marriage is wonderful, but none of that is something that one

should aspire to. When you say to say you you you you you you you you you you say to say to say the th you say th you say th you say thi th oh, you got your PhD, but when are you getting married? Right, which is a common phrase we hear all the time. When raising a child and saying, I'm going to raise a feminist, for many people, the immediate connotation that will come to their mind is that means you're raising a daughter. But from reading your work, a lot of the work has to be done by men. Men need to participate. Why is that so important? Because men have to be on board. I think you can change women all you want. If you don't change men, nothing changes.

Because we share the world, right? It's men and women. And I also think, sadly, that we live in a world where men are more likely don't think so. So then how do you convince the first man? I think some men have already been convinced. I think people like Barack Obama, for example, is a very good role model because he's feminist and his cool. Right, so he's actually a good, and we need more men like that to speak up.

I think men need to speak up, men need to not think of feminism as something to sort of something that's attacking them. So I think some men think that. They need to understand that feminism is something that's good for everyone because really when all of us are released from gender rules we're all better off. Right. And in the end it's about justice don't we want to live in a just world? So there's some men who have been convinced. So there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there there's there's there's there's there's there's th is th is some th is some th is some men who've been convinced more men need to be and trevel you should Get cracking I'm gonna call my mom. Thank you so much for being on the show. I really love to see you every single time. It's an amazing book. Dear I I'm gonna. I'm gonna call my mom. T. I love screen to you every single time. It's an amazing book. Dear IJAWELE is available now. Chimamanda Adichy everybody.

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Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17.