The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Eli Saslow and Derek Black on Redemption After Renouncing Racism in "Rising Out of Hatred"

Episode Date: January 15, 2021

Eli Saslow and former white nationalist Derek Black discuss "Rising Out of Hatred," which chronicles how Black's college experience led him to renounce his racist beliefs. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look, starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the show. I'm gonna

jump straight into it because this is honestly one of the most fascinating stories I've ever come across. I remember an op-ed you wrote about it, but I'm gonna start with you, Eli. Eli. How do you decide to write the story? How do you even believe the story and where do you start in saying, here's a former white nationalist? When did you start learning about Derek? So I was writing about Dylan Roof, who'd committed the hate murder of nine people at a church in Charleston, South Carolina, historically black church, and he'd spent a lot of time on the site called Stormfront. So I went on the site to try to learn about him, learn about this community. It's the largest hate site in the world. And there were certainly threads on there saying really upsetting things

about what Dylan Roof had done, celebrating him. But the biggest thread was about somebody named Derek Black, who was the son of the founder of lead this ideology, and then had disavowed it and sort of disappeared. And so I wanted to find him and I did. So you're looking for a man by the name of Derek Black, who people are saying on the sites is basically the mastermind behind this ideology, someone who's inspired them. When you're reading through these threads and ideas, you say hates, but like, what are we specifically speaking about? Well, in Derek's case case case case talking about somebody who was on the radio every day. He had a radio show every day, talking about anti-immigration talking points, talking about

spreading false information about IQ scores with different races and saying that white people were smarter. We're talking about somebody in Derek's case who had already run for office in Florida, spreading this kind of information and been elected and had risen to a position of power and then had written a letter later on to the Southern Poverty Law Center unwinding all of these talking points, all of the reasons he'd had the facts totally wrong and trying to convince other people that these conclusions were disastrous for the future of the country. Now Derek, I mean on your side, you have a really interesting story. You know, a lot of the time people say nobody's born racist, but I feel like you are one of the few people who's closest to this place.

Because, oh, because I mean, your mom was married to David Duke. You were born into a family of the Ku Klux Klan. So from the very beginning, you were taught to think a certain way. How do you even begin the journey of starting to think differently? I didn't until I was at college. I spent all the younger years getting more involved and feeling I really needed to help push this as my parents were getting older. And it wasn't until this weird experience of being outside of that in this different environment

and seeing people who were not supposed to fit into my in-group, but who I really liked and we were hanging out and also a college community that really condemned everything I was saying. And I wanted to know, first thing I want to know is why do you condemn it so strongly? Like I think it's fine, it's not attacking anyone. So you genuinely believe these ideas. Like just when you were alone in your room by yourself, you went like, I believe this, I believe that black people have lower IQs, I believe that people cannot mix. I believe, like you, this was like your truth.

Yeah, this whole sections of white nationalist organizations that spend their time putting out journal papers, putting out articles, putting out things that seem very scientific that make a lot of sense, misusing statistics and misusing facts and making a case for all this just being the unfortunate truth that people don't want to believe. So you go to college, you meet kids who are not like you. Do you come in with your clanhood or do you, like I genuinely want to know? Like how did you disguise your identity as a person? Was that how you started working in this world? I didn't disguise it.

Since I was a, from the time that I was a little kid, I was very aware that it was controversial and I just didn't bring it up. In anything that was not the white nationalist conference world, and as I got older, it became harder and harder to have to have to have and before college everybody who I was doing stuff with that was not white nationalist just sort of said you know I don't like that a lot but what am I gonna do let's hang out and it was college was the first time where I had this community that said this is disgusting we do not accept this at all I'm not going to just let this pass. So you have all of this information at hand. But when do you actually start changing?

Because I mean, like you say, you have people who have opposed you, you know that people oppose you. But like, Eli, when you're following the story, like, what do you find as someone who's observing from the outside, started to change? to affect that kind of change. I mean, from students on this campus, it took two years of sustained activism and engagement with Derek in order to begin to even see some kinds of results of a change.

And that was civil resistance on campus, shutting down the school at one point to say, these beliefs are not okay, you don't belong here. It was people reaching out to him, people who were the victims of his prejudices, who invited him over for dinner, sat with him again and again and again, even when they weren't seeing change, just hoping that maybe Derek would go beyond the stereotypes and start encountering the humanity beyond what he believed. It took a long time. It sounds like like it's extremely unrealistic for it to be a to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be a to be a to be a to be a process to be a process to be a process to be a process to be a process to be a process a process to be a process a process to be a process a process to be a process to be a process to be a process to be a to be a process to be a like a process, and it also sounds like it's extremely unrealistic for it to be a process that works for everyone, because you would need every single person who

believes in these ideas to be engaging with people who are not like them, which is really difficult. You went on to become someone who started writing about your experience. I remember I first read your op-ed in the newspaper and it was amazing how you spoke about what you believed in, how people changed you, and why you now believed differently. But when you go back and speak to the people who you preached hate to, they don't come with you. No, no.

When I left, I left alone. And I spent a lot of years totally alone. There were a couple of people who I could keep in contact with but once I left that community it wasn't even clear that I was going to be able to talk to my parents and there's not an anti-racist world that you just moved to so I spent a bunch of years not knowing what I should do and not talking to anybody and going by my middle name and trying to believe that I never that I I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to to to thi to to to to to to to thi thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the thi. thi. thi. I could thi. I could thi. I could thi. I could thi. I could thi. I to thi. I I I I I to thi. I I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thin, thin, the. the. I'm toe. toe. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. I'm toea. I toe. I toe. I and not talking to anybody and going by my middle name and trying to believe that I never would have to speak about this again and then maybe in that way I could continue living a life.

So now not only are you not racist, your last name is Black, which is like an added part of the story. The part of the book that really, really gripped me was when Eli's writing about your relationship with your father and how he genuinely treats this like a death in the family Where he sees you as the son he wishes he never had because you now go against everything that he truly does believe? How do you grapple with that? I mean, we struggle with this so much as human beings. I'm assuming you still love him because he's your father, but you also speak out against the rampant hatred that he professes and taught you. I think in a kind of weird way, the

stuff that I was raised with that although all of society thinks were nuts, this is truth, and we have to say it, and that we've gotten there by being independent thinkers who are curious and look at facts even though everybody says it's wrong, like that stuff was also the things that I needed to be able to leave it. And I know he doesn't exactly see it that way, but I think in some ways he respects that I believe something strong enough that I have to talk about it, because that's the value that I was raised with, even if it didn't end up how he hoped. When you look at the conversation around white

nationalism and Donald Trump, there is no mistaking the rise as your book talks about of this rhetoric, the stormfront website that I believe you designed, correct? Parts of it you designed, I think, I think, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like th, like th, was th, was the the the that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was that I was th, like, like, like th, like th, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, like, thi, like, thi, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, like, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, like, like, like, about of this rhetoric. The Stormfront website that I believe you designed, correct? Parts of it you designed, I think when you were like 10 years old, which is insane. That website after Trump was elected experienced its highest traffic. So we're starting to see that there is something in what Trump is saying that connects with this message that is completely white nationalist? I think that's totally true. I think the even scarier thing is the things that Trump are saying that are pretty explicitly white nationalists also connect with a large portion of white voters in the country. I mean we see studies all the

time that 30 or 40 percent of whites believe they experience more prejudice and discrimination more than people of color or Jews which is factually wildly. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their th. I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thier thier thier thier thier th. thier th. th. thier thier th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi te te te te an te an te an te an te an te an te an true te te thae thi thi thi thi th're the victims of prejudice and discrimination more than people of color or Jews, which is actually wildly off base. But by playing to that sense of grievance, white nationalists and people in power like the president, by saying things like, we don't want people here from shit-hole countries, or, you know, we need to build a wall. By retweeting stats about, you know, black on white crime, factually incorrect. You know, it's effective. It gets people elected.

And I think that's the scary power of this ideology. It's historically embedded in a lot of what the United States has been. And unless we go through the act of confronting it, it's going to continue to grow and be a dangerous force in what the country is. Let me ask you this, Derek, Derek, Derek, Derek, Derek grew up white nationalist, as someone who studied it, I guess, more than anybody, would you say you consider Donald Trump a white nationalist? He's not a white nationalist, because a white nationalist is this little insular world where everybody believes a bunch of very specific things, but I was raised with a really firm belief that has always been true that America was founded as a white supremacist country

That a lot of people's assumptions about race in America remain there and that that's untapped and what he taps into is the same thing that white nationalists tap into when they're trying to recruit When they're trying to convince somebody to go from some sort of garden variety sort of racist belief to something that's ramped up that's more extreme. That process looks exactly the same. So in a way it's almost like there's a like a latent or dormant idea that is embedded in America. It's something you have to work against. Right. I think the big surprise recently has been that it's a lot harder to be an anti-racist than it is to be a white nationalist because being an anti-racist means you're saying we have to change the status quo. Being a white nationalist is saying that things are fine as they are and you're good and

don't give them an inch if they call you a racist. That's easier to tell somebody they don't have to do anything. It's a powerful story and honestly I was fascinated by it because you share your experiences in a really transparent way and there's only one question I had and it sounds like a joke and sort of is but are you not afraid that like you now know the non-truth? So what if, like, would you flip the other way? Does that make sense? Because you believe something? th th th th th th th th th th th I I I I I I I I I I I I I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I th I was th I was th. I was th. I was thi thi thi thi tho- I was tho-I tho-I tho-I thi thi. I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I thi I thi I thi I thi I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I was th. I'm thi thi the. I'm theeeeeate. I'm theeate. I'm thee. I'm theat. I'm the. I'm the. I'm thi. I was thi. I was th like you now know the non-truth? So what if like would you flip the other way? Does that make sense? Because you believe something was true for so long and now you go like no the opposite is true. Do you ever wonder if it's the other way around? Like how do you how do you contort your brain

around that idea? Because I've never flipped on an idea like that extreme if that makes sense? So how do you say to to you you you you you you to you to th you th you th you th you th you th you thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi? thi? thi thi? thi? thi thi thi? thi? thi. that's that's that's that's that's that's thi. that's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. thi. thi. th extreme, if that makes sense. So how do you say to yourself, no, now I believe the correct thing? Yeah, yeah, no, it's legitimate. It is hard. And I think for those years where I was living in the wilderness, right? Metaphorically, like, what do I do? I spent a lot of time saying, like, what are my assumptions about the world? What do I think about thin' thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, it, it, thin, it, th......... It, th.. It, th. It, th.. It, th.. It, th. It, th. It, th. It, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, th th th th th th th to, to, to, toeee. toe. toe. toe. toe. th th th th th th th thin, th th thin, th people and how much of that comes from something that I never even really challenged? And figuring out how I make choices and what I speak about and what I do, there's still a part of me that says maybe I can't even trust things I feel convictions for,

but I do think that I can say that if I if I'm driven by what doesn't hurt people, like what makes life better for people, then attacking a white supremacist system that is unfair, that is unjust, and being the person in the room who challenges the latent white nationalism is something that does that. It makes life better for people, including white people. Right. And that is a value that I don't think could be wrong.

And that was what was missing before. It was the fact that I considered the only people who were important who I needed to advocate for was this little group, and realizing that that's wrong, that the little group has to expand and that we're all a part of this and if something hurts other people then we have to figure out a way to change the system so that we are all included and then we can all work forward there and you have to be the voice in the room doing that because it doesn't just happen. The status quo is not going to lead us there. The only thing that undermines a white nationalist who's trying to ramp somebody up to a more extreme version of racism

is somebody in the room challenging those beliefs, keeping it from escalating and reminding them that what you're saying is wrong. Do you think white people would be more white people who are actively doing that as you said, turning a blind dancing? like, I don't like th, th, th, a more th, a more th, a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more to a more, a more to a more, a more to a more to a more, I'm a more to a more., I don't like a more., I don't like a more th. I don't like a more thr. I don't like thr., I don't like throei.e.e. thr. throeru throi. thro. to who are actively doing that as opposed to, as you said, turning a blind dancing? Like, I don't like that you believe that, but let's still hang out? It's a white person in the room who has the strongest voice to counteract a racist thought.

We were aware of that as white nationalists. We were explicitly aware that if you're talking to somebody and you're trying to get them get them get them get them get them get them get them get them get them get them get them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them them to get them to get them to get them to get themaie thoomorrow thoomorrow their..s, thiwiwiwiwiwiwiwiwiwi. that that that that that that that that if you that if you that if you that if you're that if you're that if you're that if you're that if you're that that thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get to get thema.a.auui. to get their to get their to get their toeats a problem and get them to escalate into it's about race we don't think we go the person who's going to ruin that for you is another white person who's saying stop that because it's equal like they have they have literal skin in the game and what they say shuts any sort of white nationalist racist thing you're saying down and it stops the game. And what they say shuts any sort of white nationalist racist thing, you're saying down and it stops the room. And that's the thing that people can do. That's the thing that anyone anywhere can do is speak up because being silent is a choice.

Wow. Thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you, Eli. Rising out of hatred is available now. It's a fascinating story. I really recommend it. Eli Sazlo, Derek, everybody. The Daily Show with Covernoa, Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central Act. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show.com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. And subscribe to the Comedy Central Act. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. Dotcom. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube

for exclusive content and more. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. Rolling. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at.

That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look. Starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.