The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Jon Meacham Discusses Hope for "The Soul of America" in the Tragic Trump Era

Episode Date: January 16, 2021

"The Soul of America" author Jon Meacham argues President Trump's demagogic assault on U.S. values will eventually be corrected with the aid of America's "better angels." Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling? But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listened to 60 Minutes, a second-1 1, the the the the the the the the th-1, th-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1, th-1, th-1-1-1-1, th-1. th- th-1- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thi- thine thine thine th, th, th, thine th, th, th-1. th-1. th-1. th-1. th-1. th-1. th-1. th-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-ccui-cui-c-c. thc. thc. thc. th-c.0-s.0-cenea-s. thi-1c. thi-1cenea-1cene at, that's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News, listen to 60 Minutes a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17th. My guest tonight is a Pulitzer Prize winning presidential historian whose

latest book is called The Soul of America The Battle for Our Better Angels. Please welcome, John Meacham. You have an interesting role as a pre-s s s s s s'o. You have an interesting role as a writer and as a presidential historian. You just look at the history of presidents. Is Donald Trump unprecedented? Have you ever seen anything like this? Are we overreacting?

We're not overreacting. He's sort of precedented. We have seen various elements of demagogues, of people who have wanted to blow up the conventions who have done the wrong thing, who wanted to blow up the conventions, who have done the wrong thing, who valued fear over hope, which is what this president's about. But to treat him as if he is a unique creature, is almost to give him superpowers that we shouldn't endow him with. That's an interesting point. Do you think, though, that maybe he doesn't, it's not that we're giving him superpowers, that he lives th, who th, who th, who th, who th, who th, who th, who th, who th, who th, who th, who the, who the, who thi, who thi, who thi, who is their, who is their, who is their, who is their, who their, who their, who is the, who's tho, who's tho, who's, who's, who's, who's, who's, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, who, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, thee, vale, vale, vale, vale, v. the, valued, v. thi. thi, thi, thi, with. That's an interesting point. Do you think though that maybe he doesn't,

it's not that we're giving him superpowers, is that he lives in an age where he has superpowers. Like, you know, some of the presidents you talk about in the book and some of the leaders like McCarthy, for instance who is a senator, we see similar tra help them connect with as many people. The thing I would, this is not a book about, or an argument about, hey, let's relax because we've been here before. Right, right, right. It's let's get to work, learn from what we've done before and press forward.

If you hadn't been used to a printing press, or if you hadn't been used to radio, or you hadn't been used to television, hey, it's the information, it's, it's, hey, the information, hey, it's, hey, it's, the information, hey, it's, the information, hey, it's, the information, it's, the information, it's, the information, the information, hey, the information, it's, the information, hey, the information, it's, it's, it's, they. the information, they. they. to, it's, it's, it's, it's, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, they....... they. they. they. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th th th threat. th th too. th the. too. too. too. too. too, it's, it's, it's, it know, more than 140 characters, but the speed of communication has exacerbated, Trump has exacerbated, damn near everything, come to think of it, but you know we had a president and Andrew Johnson during Reconstruction who opposed the 14th and 15th amendments who vetoed civil rights legislation. He wrote in a state paper that people of color were genetically incapable of self-government. So not exactly a great moment. You know, he's not on Rushmore. And even the guys on Rushmore made mistakes.

My argument is that we have to find a way to protest, to resist, to heed our better angels. Because no era is perfect, and yet we've pushed on to a more to try to to, to resist, to heed our better angels because no era is perfect and yet we've pushed on to a more perfect union. When you talk about the soul of America, the battle for our better angels, you're speaking about Lincoln, that Lincoln famously said, about our better angels looking for the best in us as human beings, do you think that that's America's journey is constantly angels looking for the best in us as human beings. Do you think that that's America's journey is constantly trying to be better than it actually is? In the soul of America, in Hebrew and in Greek, the word soul means breath or life.

So it's a philosophical idea, it's a religious idea. There's room for Dr. King, and there's room for the Klan, and every era is a battle between our best impulses and our worst impulses. And even at our best, we've barely gotten to 51% on the good side, but we have gotten there. And the tragedy of the era right now is that the person who is at the center of our national life, who in many ways has taken over, this is the world's longest hostage siege. You know, he owns our mind space, you know, he's just, you know, I feel we're chained up in a garage and no one can hear our cries.

But I think they ultimately, if we... I like how you say this and like this, the more chilled voice ever. I feel like we're chained up in a garage and no one can hear our cries. Yeah. We go to WASP school for that. It's great. It's great. There's a little room at Brooks Brothers where we practice.

That's hilarious. So... There's a picture of George Bush. So, and he is at the center of the culture. Right. In a destructive way, really. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi. We, we, we, we, we, we, we th, we th, we, we, we, we're, we're, we th, we th, we th, we th, we th. We th. We, we th. We, we th. We, we th. We, we th. We, we th. We, we, we, we, we, we th. We. We. We. We. We. We. We, we. We, we. We, we. We. We, we, we, we, we, we th. We, we th. We, we th. We're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're, we're th. We're, we're, we're th. We're, we're th. We're, we're, we're, we go. We're, we go. We're, we go. We're, we're, we're, we're, we the center of the culture, right? In a destructive way, really. When you look at America's history though, and you say it's to learn from previous presence, it's to learn how America overcame those moments of populism and demagoguery, do you sometimes think that maybe it would be best served to not look at American history for Trump, to maybe look at

countries where they've had dictators that started out as a democratic the way their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the in the in the in the in the in theateat in the in thi in thi. In a destructive thi. In thi. In thi. In a thi. In a thi. In a thi. In a thi. in in thi. in thi. in thi. in in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in the in th. in the. in th. the. In the. In the. In the. In the. In the. In the. In a the. We's theeeeeeeeeeeeateeeeateeateeeateeeeeeate. I theate. In theate. In the. In the. In th not look at American history for Trump to maybe look at countries where they've had dictators that started out as a democratic leader and then molded the country into something else. There's unquestionably global elements here and unquestionably he would I think welcome dictatorial powers. The thing about the American experiment though is the constitution was designed for just this kind of moment. That's why we should take some heart it. It would have stu-it out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out out as- as- as- as- as- as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as that as that as that as that as that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as as th as th as th as th as th as th th th th th th th th th th th th th out out th out th out tho tho tho tho tho tho-a tho-a tho-a tho-a tho-a tho-a that that that that that that that that th about the American experiment, though, is the Constitution was designed for just this kind of moment. Right. That's why we should take some heart in. It would have stunned the founders that it took till 2016 to get someone like this. The checks and balances were there. The document itself, Hamilton was very good on this when he wasn't wrapping. You know, he had a day job. I don't know. You have to tell the kids that. He wasn't just a rapper.

The idea was that appetite would counteract appetite, ambition, would counteract ambition. Right. And we have these checks and balances. Right now, the presidency is not a force for good. Congress far too often takes a dive on this. But the press is doing a good job, the people are doing a great job, whether it's the activism on Florida, whether it's the activism among women, the shootings, the gun control, on the whole host of

issues. Right. And progress in America, and in the world, has come when the voices of protest that are far from power have intersected with a presidential moment where the powerful have heeded those voices. And, and the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. the th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thiol. the thioluiol, thoes, thoes, thoes, thi, the thi, thi, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, the the theeeeeeeeeean, toeean, the toeeeeeeean, the theeeeeeeean, the theee a presidential moment where the powerful have heeded those voices. And we've just got, you've got to have the voices rising in a chorus to torture this metaphor. This is a quantanamo metaphor right now. Right, right, right. For the voices to rise and ultimately it carries the day. Women have not voted yet for a hundred years. Marriage equality is not three years old. In my native region in the South, people of color 50 years ago

could not vote. And yet we've created a country that even for all of Donald Trump, people, what is our immigration issue? People want to come here. Right. And that's a good sign because it shows that America is still a place that people want to come to, but at the same time, Donald Trump is slowly turning it into the place that people don't want to come to anymore. Well, he's doing what he can, but he's... There's no doubt about that. But remember, Trump thinks of us not as a country, but as an audience. And I think one of the things we have thinks thinks thinks thinks thinks thinks thinks thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thin of the things we have to do is remind ourselves that in fact we were a country before we were taken hostage in November of 2016. And I don't think you've had St. Augustine Augustine on the show recently.

No. Okay. But I'm going to throw a quote at you. St. Augustine once wrote that a nation, it's the best definition of a nation I've ever heard, is a multitude of rational beings united by the common objects of their love. It's a wonderful phrase. A multitude of rational beings united by the common objects of their love. So what do we love in common? Traditionally, Americans love fair play, equality of opportunity, not of outcome, a chance, as Lincoln said, to rise up by your own labor. And when we listen to those voices, guess what?

We get stronger. And this is not a partisan point. I've voted for Democrats. I've voted for Republicans. I will continue to if Republicans survive the next couple of years. But we have managed to grow stronger the more generously we've interpreted the notion that we're all created equal. That's a historical data point. The world, my friend Farid Zakaria likes to point out, the world's largest air force is the United States Air Force.

Do you know what the second one is? The United States Navy's. We're doing just fine. We're doing just fine. That's a nice way for us to think about it. We're doing just fine. But we might die tomorrow. Thank you so much for being on the show. The Soul of America is available now. John Mecham, everybody. The Daily Show with Cove Noa, Ears Edition.

Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show.com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling? But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at.

That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look. Wherever you get your podcasts. This has been a Comedy Central Podcast.