The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Jonah Goldberg on "Suicide of the West" and Preserving the American Experiment

Episode Date: January 14, 2021

"Suicide of the West" author Jonah Goldberg argues the rise of both liberal and conservative populism threatens to undermine America's fundamental ideals. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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My guest tonight is a senior editor at National Review, an Allay Times columnist, American Enterprise Institute scholar and best-selling author, whose latest book is called, Suicide of the West, how the rebirth of tribalism, nationalism, and identity politics is destroying American democracy. Please welcome, Jonah Goldberg. I thought about pawing you up, sort of a Macron versus Trump kind of thing and getting all handsy, but I decided better not. I thought about pawing you up, sort of a Macron versus Trump kind of thing and getting all

handsy, but I decided better not. We should have done that. We should have done like a little handshake into a kiss, into like a little moment, into a thing. I could have like whispered, I like your musk, which is the way I think he was saying to him at one point. It felt like it. Trump's really into him, which is something that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is a that is a that is a that is a that that is a that that that that th. good for America, yes? Yeah, maybe. You know, if it's good for merit for us to get along with, you know, our 200-year-old allies,

that's good, right? But if he's only doing it because someone is sucking up to him, less good, right? I mean, it should be they're getting along because we have mutual interests, we have mutual values, right? And they reflect that. It shouldn't be because the leader of France says, not only only th only th only th only th only th only th only thoom, tho, tho, th thi not thi not thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, you are thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you thi, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, if if if if if if if if if if if if if if if thi, if thi, if thi, if thi, if thi, if thi, if thi, if thi, i i i. It's thi. It's thi. It's good thi. It's good thi's good thi's good thi's good thi's good thi's good thi. It's good thi, it's good thi, if and they reflect that. It shouldn't be because the leader of France says not only are you a handsome man, you're a powerful man, right? I mean it shouldn't just be sucking up. It should be something more. I feel like it should just be that. Yeah. Welcome to the show. Great to be here. Thank you for coming through and you have written quite a book. Suicide of the West. If ever there's a title thi. the title the title the title. the title. the title. the title. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the thr. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the there's a title that would catch you is that. Why the title of the book? Well in part because I didn't say the death of the West or the decline of the West, as grim as the title sounds, and it actually doesn't end as grim as it sounds.

Suicide's a choice. You choose to do to make these decisions that you're making. And I think that one of the things that people don't appreciate is that if you, you can choose not to do them as well, and that a lot of the things that are plaguing this country are within our own power to fix. Right, it's interesting, because you talk about nationalism, tribalism, all of these things that you believe are leading to the decline of America. When you talk about the decline of America, are you specifically referring to capitalism

and the way it's made America thrive over the past 300 years? In part, I mean, I call this thing the miracle, right? But the miracle isn't just capitalism. It's also natural rights, civil rights, free speech, all of the things that we associate with the Bill of Rights, the idea that the individual is sovereign, that we are captains of ourselves, that we are citizens, not subjects, that the government works for us, we don't work for a government. These are all unbelievably new ideas in the history of humanity. Humanity split off from the Neanderthals like 300,000 years ago, and for most of humanity's existence, we were poor, ignorant, bloody,

violent creatures, right? And our human nature hasn't changed. We are still the same creatures we were 10,000 years ago. What has changed are our values, our norms, our institutions, and if you don't have gratitude for them, and if you don't try to protect them, they'll go away. It's interesting that you say that though, you go if we don't have gratitude for them, if we don't try to protect them, because that seems like an argument many people in America will use for one group or another. What's interesting in this book is you refer to both sides of the political spectrum doing similar damage or an idea that may cause damage to that idea in the same

way. So, for instance, you write for a national review as a conservative writer, but at the same time you are not a fan of Trump. I think that's fair. Right. So, you are saying that populism, both on Trump side and on the left, there's a danger of that hurting America's power? There's nothing wrong with a little populism, right? There's nothing wrong with a little nationalism.

It's like a pinch of salt brings out the flavor and the meal. Too much, ruins the meal and way too much is literally poisonous, right? And so all poisons are determined by the dosage. You know, my favorite New Yorker cartoon, which my wife got blown up for me a few years ago and framed, has two dogs drinking martinis at a bar. One dog says to the other, you know, it's not good enough that dogs succeed. Cats must also fail. Right? And that's sort of where we are as a culture right now. Where it's not, you know, and this drives me crazy about my own side these days, where I talk to young conservative

activists, college students, and I say, look, by all means fight political correctness if that's what you want to do. But just because being rude is politically incorrect doesn't mean being rude is good. And so much of what's happening, I think on both sides of the political aisle, is this idea that you can do almost any horrible thing on both sides of the political aisle, is this idea that you can do almost any horrible thing if it annoys the right people. And that's a huge part of the defense of Donald Trump, which I just find intellectually bankrupt, which is, well, he's got the right enemies, or he's making the right people upset.

Well, you have to look at what is actually upsetting them. And some of the things that upset liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals liberals, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the the thiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, thi, thi, thi, th. I'm, th. I can't, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. I I, th. I, th. I, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. I, thi. I'm, thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm th them. Right. And some of the things that upset, you know, liberals and left is I can agree with and I, you know, I'll support. But some of the other things are just sort of crassness, rudeness for its own sake. And I don't see why I should defend that just because he's on my team as it were. It's interesting that you bring about teams. You pick your team, whatever your team does, you defend. So the other team, whatever they do, you pick the opposite. You know, the ref is biased, this is against us. Those are not facts because they don't work in our favor.

Does this, in your opinion, lead there were people who were previously oppressed and that wasn't something that America ever was? No look I mean look are there bad things in American history that we need to atone for that we need to fix or do we have problems today that we need to still work on? Absolutely. My point is is that again human nature has no history. Human nature is a constant. If you took a kid from New Rochelle and you sent them back to a Viking village to be raised by Vikings a thousand years ago, he would end up going pillaging the English countryside. You take a Viking baby and you bring it to New Rochelle, he's going to grow up to be an

orthodontist. Right? A very big orthodontist, but yeah. And so these challenges exist in every generation. It is human nature to want to be part of your tribe. We are hardwired to be part of a group. That's how we evolved is to say, I will do everything to help, and Darwin writes about this. I'll do everything to help my team, my friends, my toee, my thk, thk, thk, and my thk, and my thk, and th kk, and the, and the, and the, and the, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'm, and I'll, and Darwin, and I'll, and I'll, and I'll, and the, and the, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and…e, and I will will will will will will will, and I will will will, and I will will will, and I'll, and I'll, and I'll, I'll, I'll will.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. th.a. th. th. theaugh, the. the. the. th help my team, my friends, my kin, my family, my allies, my coalition, and the stranger is the enemy. Right. And what it, you know, and so people, you know, there's a common cliche that says people

have to be taught to hate. No, they actually have to be taught not to hate. That's what civilizations do is teat, theat, thii, their their their their their their their their their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their st. their streneatr-aqqqa, their is the stranger is thr-a, thr-a, and the stranger is the stranger is the stranger is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is their is the their is the their. their. their. thranananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananede. thea. way back in the religion department, but the fundamental insight is that you need to teach people that strangers have human dignity, that strangers are decent people, and just because you don't know them doesn't mean, or don't agree with them, it doesn't make them the enemy. And I think we're falling down on that, in our politics and our education, and instead we're wea we're wen, we're we are we are we are we are we are we are we are th, we're th, we're th, we're th., we're thine, we're thine, we're thine, we're the, we're the, and the, and the, and the, and thi., and the, and that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, th......... th. thranan. thranananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananan, that's, that's, instead we're telling people, just go with your feelings, your rage is more important than facts or argument. And that's where you get populism,

that's where you get a lot of nationalism, too. But if you have somebody who is trying to end you, how do you then work on responding to that? Because that's something that I'm always trying to figure out in my head is, it's one thing one thto say let's keep politics civil, let's not have an argument, let's not point each other out as enemies, etc. But there are times when let's say Charlottesville is a good example. There are people who are literally saying we are Nazis. These people are wishing for the end of other human beings. It's a bit difficult at that point to say, yes, yes, but let's us sit with them and

engage as they drive over us. It's a very difficult space to be in. I agree with you and I agree with you in Talbot. And look, my last name is Goldberg. I'm not really a turn the other cheek guy. I'm more of a smiting and wrath. But my point is, and I agree with you entirely about the neo-Nazis. One of the things that infuriates me about what Steve Bannon and some of the people around Trump did was claim that somehow a bunch of friggin Nazis were part of our coalition. And I would keep trying to explain to these people, no, you don't understand.

They literally say that they want to get rid of people like me, people like you, why should I form a common, you know, group with them just to get this guy elected or just for political purpose or whatever. Some things are existential questions and I'm not saying that we should have gone to Charlottes, and shot a bunch of Nazis, right? But the idea that somehow they have something important to say that I need to find common ground with them, I think it's ridiculous, I think, their a a a th.. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi. th, I think is ridiculous. I also think it's ridiculous to call people who aren't Nazis, Nazis as a way to demonize them. And I think there's a lot of that that's going on too. And so it's a prudential question and you have to sort of figure it out as you go.

It doesn't mean you can't have big arguments. I've always believe that democracy is about disagreement, thii. It's about having arguments. What I don't like about our politics right now is how people don't think arguments matter at all, that facts don't matter, that, you know, the whole point of the enlightenment was this idea that you could persuade people. And part of the reason I wrote this book is it's much a cautionary tale to my allies on the right is that a lot of people are just giving up on persuasion and instead it's just hammer and tongs, cats must fail, it's all about power. The arguments in defense of Donald Trump in 2016 were all about winning and strength and strength.

They're absolutely amoral concepts. Winning for what? It has to be the ideas that underlie it and we're in a moment where a lot of people just don't care about ideas anymore. One of the big ideas that you share in the book is that America needs to focus on less identity politics on both sides and more on merits because merits is how capitalism thrives. Merit is what moves a society forward. When you say that, though, do you think sometimes a statement like that

ignores the fact that some people's merits is overlooked because of identity politics? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, look, you know, it's funny, like most of the liberals I talk to, they like the words pop, they agree with me on the populism and nationalism and they don't like the tribalism, they don't like the identity politics part, right. I am the the th, I I I I I I I I I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely thi, absolutely thi, absolutely thi, absolutely th is tho, tho, absolutely, tho, absolutely, tho, th is thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, becausethe tribalism, they don't like the identity politics part, right? I am not saying that you can't, first of all, I'm not saying that there isn't discrimination out there. Obviously there is. What I'm saying is that one of the great and glorious things, and Barack Obama was very eloquent about this,

about this country is They were, you know, the slavery was a big, you know, hey, what about that? Right, right? That's a great description. What about that? Yeah, but you know what I'm getting at, right? And so, so what happens is then Abraham Lincoln comes along with the Gettysburg address and he redefines what the country is about, it says, wait a second, the founding fathers were to promissory note to the American people that all men, including black men, are equal. It's the unfolding of that story that is what matters.

And so one of the core values, all civilization is, is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. And one of the reasons why Martin Luther King was so persuasive is he was appealing to the best ideals of white America and saying, and saying, and saying, and saying, the, and saying, the, thiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the best ideals of white America and saying you should take people as you find them. One of the great things about the American founding, which doesn't get taught anymore, is that we got rid of titles of nobility. We got rid of the notion that simply by an accident of birth, one person is better than another person. And so a little identity politics, just like a little nationalism in terms of ethnic pride and solidarity, all of that is fine.

When you start reducing whole categories of people to an abstraction and say, all I need to know about you is the color of your skin, that's when you get into a problem. And this idea that all white people are racist is, first of all, not true. Intermarriage rates between white and blacks are going through the roof. They can't all all all all all all all all all all th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thatea. thea. theaughe. And theateate. I'm, the. I'm, theou. I'm, the. I'm. I'm. I's, the. I. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, the. And, the. And, the. And, thin. And, thin. And, th. And, thin. And, th. And, thin. And, th. And, thin. And, thea. And, the blacks are going through the roof, they can't all be racist, right? But I think the argument is less all white people are racist and the system has been created by white people to oppress people of color. So I think when people say white people are racist, I think that's disingenuous, but most of the time the argument people are saying is, hey, we can admit that this system from from, the system, the system, the system, the system, the system, the system, the system, the system, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the system from the founding fathers through to redlining, through to segregation,

was written in such a way that it would benefit one race over another. It would hamper the cats and allow the dogs to succeed. And look, I think there's obviously a lot of truth to that. At the same time, the definition of who counts as white changed over time. You listen to Benjamin Franklin. It changed for everyone except black people. That's true, and that's true too, and that's my, that's part of my point, is that it is an outrage that this country took so long to include everybody in this idea of universal equality. That is not an argument for getting rid of the value of universal equality. Right. It is, it is to say that we need to be more consistent in a more consistent in to be more consistent in to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent to be more consistent that we need to be more consistent in applying these ideals

rather than saying these ideals themselves are bankrupt. Because it is these ideals that for all of human history, the average human being everywhere on earth lived on average of three dollars a day. Africa, Asia, Europe, everywhere. And then once and only once in all of human history, it starts to go like this. And it's because these ideas start getting put into action. I think we should be, you know, we live in this moment of the greatest alleviation of material poverty in all of human history. Hundreds of millions of people in Asia and Africa are coming out of poverty. And it's not because of UN programs, they help. It's because of these ideas starting to germinate, lifting people up, maybe have just a little gratitude for them, and maybe have a little room to say maybe the entire story of this 300-year miracle isn't a story of purely of oppression and tyranny? Were we bad? Did bad things happen in the past? Yes. Have

things been getting better? Yes. You can say both things. Nuance. The way I like to think of it is this. I go, capitalism in many ways should be like software on a phone. It constantly needs to be updated. And at some points it feels like the updating has stopped and people allow it to, you know, stagnate in the way that it is. And to your point of gratitude before I let you go, I think the one thing, and I wonder if you can maybe understand this, is when people say you should be grateful for what you have, do you not think that gratitude is always relative to the bottom versus the top in where you are? Because to say to somebody,

and you hear this all the time, and I'm not saying, you're saying that. Politicians will say, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, they............. they. they. they. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thoooooo. thooo. thooo. the. thi. thoooo. the. that's like. I said, but you're not living in Afghanistan. If I'm in a Michelin Star restaurant and the food is not great, you can't tell me to go to Arby's because I complain. Right. I'm saying to you, the food is not what it was promised in this restaurant. So is it not difficult to say to people who have gratitude when they are not living in

the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise the promise? the promise the promise the promise? living in the promise of what the country is meant to be. Yeah, no, I think that that's fair. I think at the same time, for the law, I don't say that to people, right? You know, I really know, honestly, I'm not saying that. And so, one of the first, you're one of the good ones. One of the things, I'm looking, I've, I've, I've, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, th..... Don't, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, for one of the things, look, I mean, I've, I've taken slings and arrows from lots of different directions, including from a lot of friends and former friends, because the positions I've taken, one of the things I would say to people who make that argument is, stop making that argument. Right. Right. You know, that's not how you should frame this kind of thing. What I would say is that, you know, you the the thap, tha, tha, tha, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, thi, thi, that, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin. thin. thin, thin. I thin. I is, it's not a guarantee.

You have the right to pursue it. And one of the great things about freedom, the miracle, liberal democratic capitalism, whatever you want to call it, is it gives more people the opportunity to pursue it. Could that get better? Yeah. But you can't look at any of the systems we had prior to 300 years ago. And I'm not sure you can look it to most of the systems we had prior to 300 years ago, and I'm not sure you can look at it to most of the sort of nationalist or socialist systems and say they're better at it. And so when people say we fall short of ideals, I say, well of course that's why they call them ideals. You're not supposed to be able to live up. They're supposed to be a North star, you know, the thing that you're true North that you march towards and you can always get better at them. My point is

is we shouldn't throw them away because this is the only game in town in terms of what has actually taken humanity out of the muck of its natural environment. Capitalism is unnatural. Democracy is unnatural. If they were natural, you would think they would show up a little earlier in the evolutionary record than about 299,000 years into our existence here. And so maybe these are things that we should be a little more protective of. If the goose, the golden goose came into your house out of nowhere and started, you know, golden eggs don't sound modern anymore, started squeezing out winning lottery tickets. This is a right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right right right right right, right, right right right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, golden eggs don't sound modern anymore, started squeezing out winning lottery tickets.

This is a right analogy, but yeah. Yeah, but you would, your response to it should be gratitude, not like give me more, you know, more lottery tickets than you can produce. But that's what the story is about is, it's not really so much about greed, it's about in gratitude. It says, I thiiii, I, I, I, I th. th. th. th. th. thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin. thin. thr-a, thin. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. Right, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. It's, thi. thrown. thrown. thrown. thrown. that's what I appreciate about the book is it makes me think. Thank you. It engages in ideas and fundamentally what the book is saying is don't throw the baby out with the both. That's right. That's right. And we can disagree about the size of government all these kinds of things but there's some

fundamental things that we should much for being on the show. Thank you very much. Suicide of the West is available now. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives.

But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look, starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts.