The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Madeleine Albright on Pandemic Diplomacy and "Hell and Other Destinations"

Episode Date: May 23, 2020

Former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright discusses America's need for coherent leadership during the COVID-19 pandemic and her memoir "Hell and Other Destinations." Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17th. I spoke with Madeline Albright, the first woman to serve as Secretary of State.

We discussed her new book, Hell and Other Destinations, and The Global Pandemic. Check it out. Madam Secretary, welcome to the Daily Social Distancing Show. I'm delighted to be with you, thanks for asking me. Of course, anytime. You always always welcome as a guest. Before we get into the interview, I know that you have one of the most impressive brooch collections and they all mean something so I'm assuming that that V on your on your lapel stands for something? Because I spent the war in England World War II and my father broadcast for BBC I listened to BBC every night

and they with kettle drums would do the first five notes of Beethoven's 5th da da da da da da da da da da, which in Morse code is V for victory. As somebody who grew up and lived through a wall, you know, you had to do things like, you had to wear masks as a child. You had government imposed lockdowns that you and your family had to adhere to, was there a different sentiment than there is now in terms of listening to the government

and doing what is best for the population at large? Well, I was a little girl and I did what I was told, but I really do think that what was similar, and I'd love to talk about this a bit, is that the people had no control over where the bombs fell. They only had control over their behavior. And I think people people people people people people people people people people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people people the people the people the people the people the people the people the people th. th. th. their th. th. th. their their th. their th. th. to th. thi. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. their. their. their. to. to. to. to. their. to. to. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their, their, their, their. their. their. their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their fell. They only had control over their behavior. And I think people did do what they were told to do. We spent the night in the cellar of the apartment building that we lived in. My father, when we moved out of London, was an air raid warden, and, you know, they had blackouts and everything, and I think people did what they were told to do. And their behavior made all the difference.

Do you think there's a reason we've seen such a shift in how people don't trust their governments now? Because, you know, the American president, for instance, said that he sees this like wartime. And yet, his own administration gives conflicting instructions on what to do. The White House has coronavirus instructions, and yet he's tweeting up that people should go out and open America. So, you know, how do you think the American public should deal with a situation like

this when the leader doesn't seem to have a concise point of view? I think that is the whole problem, because in England, Churchill had a view and the government was trusted from everything that I can tell, from my reading also. I think now there is complete confusion, mainly because the president keeps changing his mind. And so I think that he is the one that has contributed to what is already a difficult situation by changing what he's been saying and then saying he hasn't changed it. And so leadership makes all the difference. There's no question. The news that we're all reading through today is the story of another inspector general

who was fired by the administration and you know lawmakers are saying it could have something to do with Saudi Arabia. Others are saying it's because the inspector general was investigating Mike Pompeo for using his staff to do non-official work duties like walking his dog or getting his laundry. You worked as Secretary of State. Tell me, first of all what that position is supposed to be, or what you think is going wrong, and secondly, why if it is a big deal

that the inspector generals are getting fired at the rate that they are? What I think is interesting is the inspector generals, is the inspector generals are in these departments to make sure that regulations and laws are carried out. They are inspector generals. And there are a variety of things that come up in terms of about people

and personnel matters and regulations. So that is not unusual. What is unusual is to have them fired, and then trying to figure out over what. And from what I've read in the papers, it does, it's peculiar in terms of some of the, um, the, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, what I've read in the papers, it does, it's peculiar in terms of some of the, I mean, I had security people. They're not supposed to be doing errands for, they're there to worry about the security of the Secretary of State. And then I think that firing not only him, but there, I think, three others in other departments,

the same thing. So people that are supposed to be the protectors of the rule of law are the ones that are being asked to leave, which makes one suspicious over how the administration sees the rule of law. It also feels like the Trump administration has gotten fairly comfortable dismissing people who are tasked with overseeing them as an administration. Is that something that Americans should worry about? Or is that merely just America's system working the way it's supposed to work and maybe people

are not used to it? No, I do think that it's something that people need to worry about if it's repeated, you know, in terms of how public, people that work in the government, and I believe this from having worked in it a number of times, both on the legislative and executive side, are a good, hardworking, loyal American citizens who want to do their job, and they do it for different administrations. And so to have the administration be suspicious of everybody and think that they're not fulfilling their obligations to the Constitution is peculiar, to say the least.

No, this is very strange, I think. Your book has been really interesting because you have lived quite the life. Hell and other destinations is the title. Why that title? I mean, it feels like we're in Hell, so are you telling us about other destinations we can go to? So, I'll tell you, I chose the title because it has something to do with,

the most famous statement I ever made, was that there's a special place in hell for women who don't help each other. And that statement was so famous that ended up on a Starbucks cup. And I did think that there were other destinations that women could help each other to achieve. I wrote the book before the Corona crisis. And really, I didn't focus on the fact that it was going to be so absolutely clear and so valid at the moment because I do think we see a horrible things going on, a type of hell when we need to look for other destinations. So the fact that the title is so germane

is a little bit of a surprise. Americans are asking a question every day. When will America be ready for a woman as president? It seems like this election, it won't happen. And people are wondering if it will ever happen in the future. It's interesting that you talk about women supporting other. Because I wonder, do you think that women have a special role, to the the tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho to thu, thu, thi, thi, thi, to thi, to thi, to to to to to to to to thi, their, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. theean, theateateateateat, thoooooooomoomorrow, thi. thoooooomoomorrow, thi. that women have a special role to play in supporting each other when it comes to getting into elected office? Well I do think that it's important for women to support each other but

I would never recommend that a woman vote for a woman that she disagreed with in terms of elected office. I think that there are some that I certainly wouldn't vote for but I do think that it helps if there's more than th than th than th than th than th than th than th than th than th than th than th than th than th than th than the th than the the th than their more more more more more more more more more more more more more more then then then thin thin tho tho thin their their their thi's more more thi. their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their their their. their their. their. their. their their. their. their. their their their their their their their their their their their their thi. to be to be to be to be to be toe. toe. toe. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. their. to. think that there are some that I certainly wouldn't vote for, but I do think that it helps if there's more than one woman in the room. What is so interesting now is that the countries that have managed to have some kind of control over the virus are the countries run by women. That is what's so fascinating, and, you know, like the Prime Minister of New Zealand, and theirnuilet and Norway and Den-Nor.. th. th. th, th, th, and Norway and Norway and Norway and Norway and Norway and Norway and Norway and then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, and then, and then, and then, and then, then, then, and the Prime Minister of New Zealand and then Taiwan and Finland and Germany and Denmark and Norway. And I think there are certain qualities about how women view their role in terms of, by the way, I think women are really good at multitasking because that's what we have to do, which means that we have peripheral vision, that we do care about how decisions

are made, that we actually, if you want to put it in these terms, we don't want to divide our children so that one group hates the other. And there are a variety of aspects in terms of how women come to power, which is mostly by trying to be helpful rather than kind of having a lot of ego activities. so I do think thi. thi. But thi. But thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do that we, that we, that we, that we, that we, that we, the, the, the. that the. that the. the. that. that. the. that, the. theate. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe, toe, be helpful rather than kind of having a lot of ego activities. So I do think, but as to the question, America likes to be first and everything, we are certainly not the first in terms of having a woman leader. And I would hope very much at some point we would. It feels like global diplomacy though is about to take a bit of a knock. Just reading today about the group of countries

coming together to discuss the global pandemic right now. There's clearly a rift in that there are many countries such as Australia who are saying, they want to get to the heart of the pandemic. Where did the virus come from? And how did it spread so quickly? People intimating that they're pointing fingers at China. China has come out and their representative said this is not the time to be investigating

the source of the virus and it feels like the world is being set up for a moment where quite a few countries are going to be looking to China for answers about what happened in Wuhan and how the virus spread around the world. How would you handle this situation? Because on the one hand, people want to hold a country accountable if they've done something that has hurt other countries. On the other hand, it seems like everybody is terrified of China. So how do you balance this out in dealing with them, but also dealing with them as a partner?

What you try to do in diplomacy is to solve problems, not create them. And I do think that one of the issues here is what do we do now, because, as I said earlier, we're all interconnected on this, and the virus knows no borders. At some point, there has to be an investigation of what happened. There's no question about that. But what we need to do now is figure out ways that we can work together. An example that I've used is supposing that the Chinese were the ones that came up with the vaccine first. Would we say we don't want it? And so, and the last thing we want to do is to have a so-called cold war with the Chinese. A diplomat has to be able to do two things or at least two things simultaneously

things simultaneously things simultaneously things simultaneously things simultaneously things simultaneously things simultaneously things simultaneously things simultaneously things simultaneously things simultaneously thin simultaneously thin simultaneously simultaneously or at least two things simultaneously. How to find the areas where we can cooperate, which clearly, for instance, climate change is one of them, are now dealing with the virus, and where we have to compete. And the kinds of things that the Chinese are doing in the South China Sea claiming territory and undermining a variety of laws that we've had on navigational freedom, that's bad. And we have to be able to figure out how to compete on that score and not get ourselves into a position where we're going to have a cold war with the Chinese. But it is a very difficult relationship, and it's only made worse now by kind of have it, you know, politicizing it and having

it be part of our elections. Thank you for sharing your time with us today and I hope I get to see you not through a lens the next time we speak. But I'm really glad to be with you because the last time we saw each other was at the National Democratic Institute where we were giving you the Democracy Award because humor is an important part of diplomacy and what you do every night makes a huge difference and I'm so glad that we've met and that you invited me to come and be on the show.

Thank you so much, Madam Secretary. I appreciate you. Thank you. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Ear's Edition. Watch the Daily Show week nights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. to the Daily Show. And subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.

When 60 Minutes Premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes a Second Look on Apple podcasts starting September 17.