The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Nikole Hannah-Jones on Reframing the Legacy of Slavery with The 1619 Project

Episode Date: June 6, 2020

New York Times Magazine reporter Nikole Hannah-Jones discusses The 1619 Project and its exploration of the ways America is still suffering from its foundation of slavery. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17th. Welcome to the Daily Show. Thank you.

And congratulations on creating and working with a group of people on a project that has gone on to become more than just a moment, but rather a rethinking of America's history. Let's start with the why behind this. I mean, history seems like it has been written. So why try and write it again? Well, history has been written, but it's been written to tell us a certain story. And the 1619 project is trying to reframe that story. And it's it's it's the the th it's th is really really really really really really really really really the thi thi thi thi thiiiiia's thiaughe thiaughe thiaqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq. thiaqq. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thirying to reframe that story. And it's really about the ongoing legacy of slavery. We've been taught that slavery was a long time ago,

get over it, which is something nearly every black person in this country hears at some point. And the 1619 is really saying that slavery was so foundational to America and its institutions that we are still to exploring the many ways that we that we still are. It's interesting that you've chosen the year 1619 because many people would say but this was before America existed. You know why not start at America's founding and then not include the years before when this was a colony and Virginia and Britain were involved. So why do you choose that point and why do you argue more importantly that on the

four hundred anniversary of this fateful moment, it is finally time to tell our story truthfully. Yes, so it's funny because this year is also the 400th anniversary of the Mayflower. Yet no one argues that we shouldn't learn about the Mayflower because that predates the United States. We know that that was an important moment. I would argue that the white lion, which was a that was a ship, which was a ship, which was a ship, which was a ship, which was a ship, which was a ship, which was a ship, which was a ship, which was a ship, that a ship, that a ship, that a ship, that a ship, that a ship, that a ship, that a ship, that that a ship, that that a ship, that that a ship, that was a ship, that that a ship that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that is a ship, that that that that that that is a ship, that is a ship, that is a ship, that is that is that is a ship, that is that is that is that is that is the the the the the year, is a ship, is a ship, is a ship, is a ship, is a ship, is a ship, is a ship the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi, is also the the the the the the the the than 1620, then the Mayflower. So no, America hadn't get formed, but Virginia was the first colony. Our institutions would come out of the 13 colonies, our legal system, our cultural system, our political system, and certainly the anti-black racism that we still struggle with is born at

that moment. When you start off in this magazine, there's a really beautiful passage in the beginning where you talk about your personal journey and how you struggled with your relationship with America as a country. And it's a really beautiful tale you tell about growing up, you know, on the land where so many people had died and toiled as enslaved people. You also talk about how your father was a proud American and how you didn't understand how he could be proud to be American when America seemed to be against him in spite

of everything that he did. How did you reconcile that? Or did working through this project change your view on how to be American or how not to be American? Yeah, absolutely working on the project changed my perspective on my father. I opened the piece talking about how my dad, who was born in apartheid Mississippi, flew this flag in our front yard on this giant flag pole, and he was one of the only black people I knew who flew a flag in their yard, and I was deeply embarrassed by that.

But as I started researching for this project, and my essay is really about how black Americans have had this pivotal role of actually turning the United States into a democracy, I got that he understood something that I didn't, that no one has a right to take away our citizenship and our rights to think of ourselves as American, because so much of what black people have done is what has built this very country that we get to live in today. What do you mean specifically when thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thr. I, te, te, te. togu. togu, togu, togu, togu. togu. te, toda, tha, tha, country that we get to live in today. What do you mean specifically when you say that? Because that was an idea that I don't think I had fully thought about before I read this magazine was the concept that America's foundation was a lie in that it was a group of promises that weren't fulfilled, you know, to both people of color and to women in many respects.

And what you argue in this magazine is that black people basically had the job of making it a truth. What did you mean by that? Absolutely. So when Thomas Jefferson writes those famous English words, we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal. He owns 130 human beings at that time, including some of his own family members. And he understands that one fifth of the population will enjoy none of those rights and liberties. So we are founded on a hypocrisy on a paradox. But black people

read those words and said, oh, we're going to believe that these words are true and apply to us and fight. Again and again, we see them fighting at the revolution. The first person to die for th black th black th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, thi, thi. their, their, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their, their th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the, the. the. the of thee of theeei. thei. thei. thei. thei. thei. thei. thei. thei. thei. theeethe revolution. The first person to die for this country was a black man named Crispus Attics who wasn't free. We see that happening with the abolitionist movement, largely led by black Americans. We see that happening at the civil war with the reconstruction amendments. And of course, the civil rights movement, which brings the franchise to large segments of America for the first time. So we said we were founded as a democratic-aaaa, to, to, to, to, to, to, tha, tha, thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, tho, and, thi, and, thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is. the, is a, is a. the the, is a. the the the thi. thi. thi. the. thr. thr. thr. thea. thea. thea. thea. the th the the the thr. the thr. the we were founded as a democratic republic, but most Americans could not vote at the time of the Constitution. But thanks largely to black resistance and freedom struggles,

we are as close to a multiracial democracy as we've ever been. It's a really beautiful story in that it's told not through the lens of collecting stories. You know, it's the fact. I feel it's a little angry. It's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a little, it's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi thi thi thi and it's a thoomomomomomomom and it's a thoanicicicicicician. It's a thii. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's a thi, it's a thi, it's a thi, it's a thi, it's a thi, it's a thi. It's a tho thoooo thoanananann. It's a thoananana. It's a thoananananana. It's a thoanana. It's a it's it's it's the fact that it's a little angry. A little angry? Oh, it doesn't it doesn't feel like anger so much as it feels like a truth. Yeah. What what it has sparked though is is a fight over history and how the history is told. Yes. You know once this magazine came out there were many historians who you know came after you and said no this is this is this is this is this is th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. T. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the thi. thi. the the the the their. their. It's is their. It's is their. It's is a their. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's the the the the the the the the the the the the the. I's th. I's th. I's the the the th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the the no this is this is incorrect. The primary reason that America sought its independence from Britain was not because they wanted to maintain slavery it was because of taxation without

representation it wasn't the primary cause. Why do you think there's such a resistance to slavery being one of the primary causes of America breaking away from Britain? Because we need to believe as a country that our founding was pure, that yes, you know, we had some troubles, including holding 500,000 people in bondage, but that largely we were a nation founded to be exceptional on these majestic ideas and that our founders, though complicated men were men who were righteous. But when you argue that our founders were, many of them, very hypocritical

and that you can't just simply overlook the fact that slavery was a motivation in some of the colonies, just taxation was a motivation, but also the ability to keep making a lot of money off of human bondage. That is very unsettling, not just to the average American, but to historians who have seen their job as protecting that founding narrative. The difference is, you know, when you're black in this country, you don't have the luxury

of pretending that that history didn't exist. And what that history has done is really marginalized our story when really the story story of black people and slavery is central to the United States. When you worked through this project, there are new pieces of information you discover, there are stories that you find were never told that need to be told. And I know you can't write about everything, but I was interested in whether or not you would think

that other countries who are involved in slavery, that other countries who of outsource slavery. You know, if you think about whether it was the Americas or Spain or many of these other colonial nations, their slaves were in the countries and then they left those countries and were like, we're done with slavery, but they also don't have to deal with the people because they're still here. So not to feel sorry for America, but do you think there's also a reckoning that should happen in this way, in Europe maybe? Oh, for sure. All the colonial powers need to have a reckoning, and reckoning also needs to happen

on the continent of Africa. But I think the fundamentalthe country that would become America. But also of those colonial powers, America is the only country that was founded on the idea of individual rights and liberty. That was founded on the idea of God-given, inalienable rights. None of those other European, I mean, these were monarchies. They weren't founded on the idea that every person had equal rights, but we were. So that hypocrisy really matters. And of course I argue that that hypocrisy is why we have struggled so much to get over and address the issue of

slavery because it forces us to acknowledge this lie at our founding. Before you go, one of the main questions many people may have, and you see this to thruke thus to thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the their their their their you, their we's, their, their, their, their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. tooi. tooi. toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. I's, too. I'm toe. I'm toe. I'm thea. I'm toe. I'm toe. I'm toe. I'm toe. I is people saying why do you have to keep trudging this up? Can't we just move on? It's been 400 years now. Can't we just move on? What do you hope would be sparked by the conversations that come from a magazine that delves into slavery like this? What do you want someone who sits at home and says, they go, Nicole, I'm white and I had nothing to do with this and I don't know what you want me to do. What would you hope people take away? That's a great question. Let me just say, for the record, nobody wants to get over slavery more than black folks. It's not...

It's not to our benefit to black people for a single day. But that's the problem. We've never dealt with the harm that was done. I'm 43 years old, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and tho, and tho, and tho, and tho, thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, that, that, that, that, that, thi, that, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, day. But that's the problem. We've never dealt with the harm that was done. I'm 43 years old and my father was born into a Mississippi where black people couldn't vote, black people couldn't use public facilities. That was all perfectly legal. We're not far removed from this past at all. And there's never been any effort to redress that harm. So what I hope I hope that that that I hope, every single story in the magazine starts with America today and shows how these things about American life that you think are unrelated to slavery actually are.

And I hope by confronting that truth, maybe we can finally start to repair the harm that was done, and then finally start to live up to be the country of our ideals. It's a fantastic job. Fantastic magazine. Really wonderful having you on the show. Thank you so much. Should learn more about this beautiful, amazing story. Go to New York Times. Dot com slash 1619.

That's NYTimes. Times. toxe. Nicollahahearnes. the Daily Show. too Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. dot com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube

for exclusive content and more. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change.

Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17.