The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Rebecca Carroll - "Surviving the White Gaze"

Episode Date: March 22, 2021

Author and cultural critic Rebecca Carroll discusses her memoir, "Surviving the White Gaze," in which she examines the challenges of transracial adoption and forging her own identity. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look on Apple podcasts

starting September 17th. Rebecca Carroll, welcome to the Daily Social Distancing Show. Thank you so much for having me, Trevor. It's truly a pleasure to have you here because you are for so many people a cultural icon. You know you're a critic at large you've interviewed some of the most notable voices and faces in in the world today. You've had some of the most interesting conversations not just about life but about race and how it affects everybody's lives. But today we're having on the show for a really similar and yet different reason, and that is because you've turned that lens on yourself with one of my favorite memoirs that I've ever read.

As somebody who is so used to asking people about their lives, was it easier or harder to ask yourself questions about where you had come from and how you had come to be? Thank you, Trevor, for such a delightful and kind and generous introduction. I am really, really thrilled to be here and appreciate you so much. So I thought it would be, given the fact that I had interviewed so many people, like I thought, oh yeah, I'll just turn it, as you said, on me and ask myself some questions. Turns out, that's not how memoir writing works. Neither is it about, you know, sort of stringing memories together. It's really a craft. And so that was the thing that I was most concerned with and also the most sort of focused on. And I know that the story is interesting because I lived it.

But the most important thing for me was to figure out the arc and the craft of writing this memoir. And I think a lot of things had to happen. I had to get grown. I had to own the experiences. And I also had to make sure that the narrative arc only answered the question of whether what was mentioned or included survived the white gaze. So there were a lot of experiences, obviously, that I could have included, but that was

the process for me of really like, okay, but does that speak to surviving the white gaze? Surviving the white gaze is such an apt description for what it feels like you went through. Because for those who don't know a piece of your story, you were adopted by a white family, raised by this family in an all-white neighborhood. I mean, you didn't see another black person until, I think it was what, the age of, was it six?

Yeah, six years old. And you you tell tell tell tell tell tell tell tell thel thel thel the the the the the the the the the, you the, you the, you the, the, the, the, theateate, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, thi. thr. that's, the?? that's, the. the. that's, throwne. that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that six, yeah, six years old? And you tell these stories. And what's really interesting in the book is how you have your story as a child who's adopted by a white family. And then we learn more of your story, you know, reconnecting with your birth mother, reconnecting with your birth father. And so we'll talk a little bit more about that,

but let's start with the adoption family. One of the most controversial conversations that people have, especially in America today, is should white people be adopting black children? Some people say no, never. And then others will say, how can you, would you rather have a child not have parents or, you know, than to have white parents who maybe aren't well versed in their cultural existence or how to raise a black child and you have an interestingly nuanced point of view on this because you lived it. How would you respond to people who say, should white people adopt black children? So let me preface my answer by saying I was very loved and I believe that transracial adoption can work. What I also think is that trans racial adoption can work.

What I also think is that it presents a dynamic that mirrors the kind of foundational relationship between black folks and white folks. I am not likening trans-adoption to slavery. I'm saying that the foundational dynamic between black folks and white folks in this country and other countries white folks in this country and other countries, but in this country, is white people setting the tone, setting the structure, setting the standards, deciding what is valuable, making choices for those who don't have any

right, really. So that's what black kids are in these families. And so if white parents adopt black children and they don't make very conscious decisions about incorporating, including, immercing, valuing, just valuing blackness, then it's deeply problematic, right? It's not just one doll, it's not just one poster, it's not just one, you know, mentor. It's really an immersion process that has to happen, and that doesn't happen.

And so should white parents adopt black children, if they are prepared to raise black children into black adults, then yes. It seems simple, and yet it's one of the most complicated things to do, especially in a country where race is as fraught as it is in America. Because you talk about in the book, about how your parents didn't even know how to do your hair, something that seems innocuous. You never think of having to know how to do your child's hair, because it's just hair, and yet it is so much more than just being here. There are parents out there who may say, look, I don't want my child to be brought up black.

Why can't they be just raised as a Johnson? It doesn't have to be about black or white, Rebecca. Why can't they just be raised as a family member? Why do I have to remind them of their blackness? What do you think they're missing when they say these things? The idea of just being a Johnson is in keeping with this notion of racelessness or colorblind or post-racial which is basically the message is I will value you only if I strip you of something that is so critically important to you, right? Like I want you to see that I am black. That's important to me.

I don't need you to bring it up in every conversation, you know. But that's the thing, right? Is that so many white people think, well, if I'm recognizing your blackness, it's that I'm othering you. No, if you're recognizing my blackness, you're recognizing what a phenomenal legacy and culture and people that I come from. You kept your journals, you kept your letters, you kept your memories as they were at the time. It really makes the stories come alive and it makes some of them even more painful.

You know, I would love to know how you deal with the paradox at times of talking about racism or talking about the ignorance that some white people will have in with regards to dealing with race, but then still explain to people that you have white family who you love and who loved you and who you work with and etc. How do you deal with explaining that paradox to other people? That's a really good question in that, especially with the book coming out and managing sorting,, and, the ignorance, that, thi that, th th th that, the ignorance, th th th that, th th th th th th th thi that, th thi thi that, thi that, thi thi thi thi that ignorance that ignorance that thi the ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that, or that ignorance that, that ignorance that ignorance that, that ignorance that, that ignorance that, that ignorance that, that ignorance that, that, that ignorance that, that, that, that ignorance that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that thi thii-of that that that ignorance that that that that thiiiiiiiiiiiii-that that that that that that that that that that that that that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance that ignorance to other people? That's a really good question in that, especially with the book coming out and managing sort of the fallout, for lack of a better term,

of how my white family has received the book. And, you know, sort of foolishly maybe, I thought writing this book would be in some ways a kind of offering, a kind of gift for them to kind of understand what my experience was like. But I think that they have felt kind of betrayed almost that, or defensive, or all of the things that white people feel when they're sort of like, whoa, I didn't realize that I was right in the room when this black person was feeling this. And it just happens that black person is their sister or their their experience.. their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, th experience, th experience th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, th experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, their experience, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi experience, thi experience, what thi experience, what thi experience, what thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, thi experience, th was right in the room when this black person was feeling this. And it just happens that that black person is their sister or their daughter. I have spent a lifetime trying to, you know, be okay with,

with the whiteness of my foundation. And that's why it was so important to me to meet my black birth father and to raise my son who is mixed but as a black child, as a black boy. He read your book by the way and loved it. He's a teenager. Yes. And so, you know, it's not about explaining, I think. It's really about just walking in the identity that I am. So surviving the white gaze, it's about surviving,

but it's also about becoming. So it doesn't, you know, even in conversations that I have with my wife and with my son, you know, it doesn't make my son any less black because his dad is white. Right. Well, I honestly hope that everyone reads the book, and I think for parents with their children adopted or not I think for people who's struggling with

identity whether they're mixed or not I think it's a fantastic book and I thank you for taking the time to join me today on the show Trevor thank you so much for having me I really really appreciate it thank you very much Rebecca The Daily Show with Trevor Noah ears edition watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central Act. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it.

This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look, starting September 17th, wherever

you get your podcasts. This has been a Comedy Central Podcast.