The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Ta-Nehisi Coates Gives His Unique Take on a Familiar World in "The Water Dancer"

Episode Date: February 17, 2020

Author Ta-Nehisi Coates talks about the fantastical elements in his novel "The Water Dancer" -- set in the Antebellum South -- and shares his thoughts on cancel culture. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Welcome back to the show. Glad to be here. This is the last thing I'm doing. This is your last press for the book, like ever. Yes. This is a good day. I don't want to talk about ever again. You have been on a whirlwind with this book though because I mean like you're ending it here, but I mean it kicked off in a place few authors dream of their book ever kicking off and that was with Oprah Winfrey. I remember Oprah like Oprah made a video and she was like, guys, my book club is coming back. People are like, oh, what's the book?

And she was like, Tenahasi Coats, the water dancer. And I mean, it's just blown up. Like from, how did that even come about you and Oprah and the book? How did that come about? Well, as I've said now, several times, not that I mind saying it. Not that I mind saying it here again. Tell us how you hate to be here, tell the hazy. Tell all these people how you hate them for me. Very happy to be here.

So I worked on this for a long time. Right. So I worked on it for, actually it took about 10 years. You know, we both had the same editor. Right. When I finished my first book, Chris Jackson, he said, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, it's the funniest thing because when it was done, you never know who is gonna be touched or moved by what you're writing.

Because it was never like, oh, this clearly is a book, you know, that Oprah Winfrey would be very interested in. And then, I don't even know how you do that. But whatever it was, can I tell you? That would be the most amount of hubris to have to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to have as a person. If you finish writing a book, Oprah Winfrey is like, natural, natural Oprah put, got it, you know. But no, and then I got a call, man. I was actually coming back from vacation with my wife and I got a text message and the text message said from Chris, you have to be available at 10 3rd, a very important call. And it was Oprah Winfrey. And since then it really has been a beautiful journey for not just the book but yourself because like a lot of

people know you as as a writer who who critiques and analyzes America. It's history and its presence and how the history has affected the presence and how people don't want to deal with that. But the novel is a completely different world for you. I mean obviously you've written comics but but this is fiction that is in a very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very very the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the book. the the the the the the book. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, but this is fiction that is in a very real place. You write about the character in the book who lives in a world, and this is what really intrigues me about the book is, you don't refer to the people in the book as slaves. This is when it's taking place, you know,

in and around slavery in America. But you're very selective about the words you use, in America, but you're very selective about the words you use, why don't you call the people slaves and why don't you say they are slaves and as a slave and you don't do that, why? Well, like for African Americans particularly, there is, and one day we'll have to talk about whether it's the same way with apartheid, but there is a popular notion in the mindset of what I now call enslavement was. And so there's this idea of rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape rape they they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they they are they are they they are they are they they are they are they they they they they are they they they they they they they they they they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their they are they are they are they are they are they are they are they are the mindset of what I now call enslavement was. And so there's this idea of, you know, rape, chains, whips, you know, roots, you know, your name is totally. That's what people, and so what you have to do is like, you have to make it your own, and

you have to create a kind of image almost, or a world. Like it's slavery, but it's your slavery,that makes any sense. It's your rendition of it, your vision of it. I wanted something that did not exist. And so a strong part of that, man, is coming up with new ways to describe it. And so then get new ways to describe it. You need new words, you know? Interesting. Why do you choose to place it in throwne, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thin, their, their, their, they.ooomoomorrow, they.oomorrow, try, they.e, they.oomorrow, try, together, thi..... I. I. I. time. I mean, you know, we live in a world where people might say, there's so many stories out there. It feels like we always talk about slavery,

but you chose to tell an extremely unique story in a very familiar world. Yeah, well, there's the big reason, the small reason is the world that I was, the period indirectly or directly. So you think about like say gone with the wind, right, which is, you know, what, I guess the most published novel in American history. You think about something like birthed to, you know, their ta. toeat, you know, Confederacy that, you know, ends up out in the West

trying to make good. And so I just wanted to go to the source of it, man. You know what I mean? I wanted to try to tell it from my, Tanahasi is going to write this book and then you open the first few pages and you're reading about this guy Hiram and you're like, wait, this is a story that seems to be about slavery and it's like, no, it's not. It's a story of a people who are trying to achieve something and he has these superpowers that he discovers and what's really interesting is not just a what your superpower may be as a person, you know, like how you talk about how people were freedom fighters and what they did during that time. Why did you choose superpowers? Why did you choose, like were you inspired by the world of, you know, you were writing on Black Panther, etc. Is that part of it or was it just

you trying to create something completely different? No, honestly, it was the other way around. I mean, it is, I guess, to my great benefit, that, like I had 10 years to get it, you know what I mean? To basically learn to write a novel. You know, it's basically learn to write a novel, to write a novel and the novel, a to'n'e'n' the novel, and thin' thin' the th, I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I th, it it it it th, it's th, it's th, I th, I th, I thin' thin' thin' thoe, I the the the thea' thea' thea' thea' thea' thea' thea' thea' thea' tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha the the the the the the the the the the the the thea' thea' thea' thea' thea'n thea'n thea'n thea'n thea thea thea thea thea thea thea thea thea thethan the case for reparations. It's definitely older than Black Panther and all of that stuff. So I had all of that before I came to this. You know, I'm from Baltimore, Maryland. Harry Tubman was like a superhero.

She's from Maryland, you know, you know, the way she was, you know, like, she was described the Harriet Tubman vibe because because in many ways she was you know Like I like the way you've spoken about before we say it's like she was teleporting people in a way like yes Yes, one minute they were here the next thing they were gone out of slavery into a different world Exactly you've also done something really interesting here that I feel was purposeful and that is you have centered the women in the story the women the story and you and the, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and th, th, the their, th, their, th, their, th, their, their, their, their, the, their, their their, their, their, their, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one one their one one their one their one their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they, they, they, one they, one they, one they, one they, one they, one they, they, their, their, their, their, the people who tackled your critics head on. Some people say, hey, Tanahasi, you're an amazing writer, but I don't see you telling many of the stories in and around, not just women, but black women. For the black man you speak strong,

black women seem to be left out. In this book, though, you have a lead character who has powers, who's fighting for freedom, who's fighting an injustice system. The women around him seems to be part of the reason he can do what he does. Yeah, and I think like your responsibility is as a writer is to balance two impulses. Like I said, this book is older, so all of the characters in this book are actually older than, you know, like, whatever, I mean, it was nonfiction, but just put the conception of between the world and me. You have to on the one hand, like legitimately, le e lege the the the the the the the the, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, th... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, like, like, like critics and actually listen and then at the same time like be strong in what you know to mean like follow your vision. You know what I mean? Because you can never just you know write for a crowd but the crowd is not wrong. Do you understand I'm

saying? Like you got to like you got to find some sort of way to be to be yourself and be the writer that you need to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be. to be. to be. the the the to be. the the the to be. to be to be the to be to be the writer. the the the writer. You to be to be to be to be to be to to be to to to to to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a their. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their to be. their their toe. the toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. the the the the the the that you need to be without demonizing people that may not see things the way you see it. Right, right, right. You know, do you think this book might make it easier for some people to delve into the conversations in and around slavery because it exists in a fantastical world? You know, sometimes people can't deal with nonfiction because they're like, oh, this, they're whatever, whereas when it's, you know, when it's in a fantastical world, there's this element of like, oh, that story was great

and that heroes, do you think there's a part of that, that you hope would achieve? I do. I mean, I think, like you take something, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, when, the,'s made them quite clear. But there are people who do not share his politics, who love the wire. You know what I mean? I don't know what effect that actually has on actual politics, you know? So I don't know. You know, it probably people who could probably read this book.

They probably would not agree with me on reparations and all sorts of other thing before I let you go and rest. No, because I know how strenuous a book tour can be. I got a whole book waiting for me. Yeah, man. I do want to know this. Yes, you wrote the book. You still ponder.

You're still out there in the zeit. One of the articles you wrote has drawn a lot of attention, obviously criticism, backlash, support, all of the above. And you wrote about Colin Kappenik. Fascinating article about the cancellation of Colin Kappenik and cancel culture as a whole. One of the most beautiful sections, and I'll paraphrase you, forgive me, is where you talk about how people like to make it seem like cancel culture is a tool that is only being used today by liberal students and you know the snowflake left left, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, to, the, to, and, and, and, and, the, and, and, the, the, the, the, to, and the the, and the, the, too, too, and too, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and, and, and, and, and, and the, and, and, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they.a, is.e.e.s.s, they.s, theymea, too, theymea, theymea, too, theyn-c-calaugh, isa, isa, isa, is a, is, is a they that is only being used today by liberal students and you know the snowflake left, etc. But you say cancel culture has for long been wielded by those who control the levers of power.

I mean one of the earliest acts in you know proto-American history is like the killing of women up at Salem because they looked at somebody wrong or some, you know, some other you know, in the sale of witch crubs. I mean and this goes through all of our history, you know the gag rule during a period of Enslavement, you know out of blacklist Reconstruction, you know up to this very day, you know where Trump you know routinely writes people off, you know for all sorts of you know, you know, to all sorts of, you know, you know, to their today's theory's greatest enemy, you know, some college students, you know, whatever, get mad about something. Like, suddenly that's history's greatest enemy. Right, you know, now they've gone too far.

Right, right, right. I mean, listen, you had a president of the United States who used basically the authority, you know, and you know, the majesty of the state to threaten the NFL and to keeping this guy out of earning a living that he had been training for since he was a kid. I mean what more effective and devastating actor cancellation can you come with? That don't match anything that you know some kids in a in a cafeteria somewhere you know you know on a quad who don't like Milo you know have done and yet we find ourselves you know focusing on that you know I mean and I you know as I argue as I argue you know as I argue the the you know as I argue the the you know as I argue the the that that that the that that the that that that that the the that that that that the the that the that that the that that that that that that that that the the the that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. they. they. they. they. they. the the the the the know, and I, you know, as I argue in the piece, I think that has a lot more to do with, um, who is doing the cancelling than

it does with, you know, what we think about cancelling. Oh, that's interesting. He will get canceled all the time. And some people shouldn't be canceled, by the way. that's it. But who is can't, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. that thi. thi. th. th. th. th is th. th. th is th is to is to is to is to is to is to is to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th is th. th is th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the is the. the. the. the. the. the. the. tho. the. the. to the. to to to tho. to the. the cancel. That's it. My friend, thank you so much for coming back until the show. Thank you, try. I hope you rest. I hope you chill. I hope nobody asks you about this book ever again. I want to hear about it. Ever again.

Buy the book, read the book, but don Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central, and the Comedy Central app. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show.com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. And subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. This has been a Comedy Central Podcast. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change.

Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17.