The Daily Show: Ears Edition - ICYMI - Ta-Nehisi Coates Talks About "Between the World and Me" and More

Episode Date: December 26, 2020

Author Ta-Nehisi Coates reflects on how America has changed over the past four years and discusses the film adaptations of his books "The Water Dancer" and "Between the World and Me." Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Tanahasi Coates, welcome back to the Daily Social Distancing Show. Trevor, thanks for having me back, man. This is truly an honor because I just found out today you were officially the number one guest we've had on the show, as in like you've been on my show the most frequent, yeah. Imagine that. Imagine that. Imagine that. Six, six years.

What a journey it's been? Well, five years. Wow, wow. That's great. I have no problem with that at all. I would love to know as somebody who has been talking to you over these five years and somebody who's watched your life change dramatically, but not necessarily your tenor, have you seen a change in the world around you over the past five years, or have you just experienced more of the world, the world, the world, the world, the, thiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I have, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I....... I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I that's, I that's, I that's, I'm that's, I'm that's, I'm that's, that's thin, that's thin, thin, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th or have you just experienced more of the world

being the world? And I mean specifically America obviously because that's what you write about most of the time. Yeah, definitely. You know, to some extent for the worst, you know, I think the worst is pretty obvious. You know, I think a quarter million and counting Americans dead is, you know, pretty obvious us picking up a million COVID cases a week. That dead is, you know, pretty obvious. Us picking up a million COVID cases a week. Right. That is obviously, you know, pretty bad. And and the fact that, you know, it's really been no response of note or of merit from the government. I don't know what a state is for if it's not to prevent the census death, you know, a quarter million

of its inhabitants. What's the point of having a state? And perhaps, that a that that that that that that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is that is. I is. I is. that is. that is. that is. that is. that is. that is. that is. that is. that is. that is. I, I, I. that is. I, I. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is, I is, I is, I is, I is, I is, I is, I is, I is a the the the the the the the the the th. thi. thi. that is, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't, I'm, I don't, I'm, I'm, I'm million of if it's inhabitants, what's the point I have in a state? And perhaps that's kind of to the point. But that is probably uppermost in my head right now, in terms of, you know, turns for the bad. There has been, I think, among a certain portion of Americans, outside of the African-American community, probably an increased awareness of certain issues, I think Trump himself has probably made that hard to ignore.

Right. I think obviously the summer protests made that hard to ignore. I think the disproportionate impact of COVID has made that hard to ignore. How long that will last or what that will come to? I'm not sure, but it certainly is a change, I would say. We've got a few things happening in the world of Tanahasi-Cote. Let's talk first of all about the water dancer. The last time I was with you in the studio, you were on to promote the hard cover of the book. Now it's out in paperback.

You are exhausted promoting the book, but I guess you've got fresh energy because you're back out promoting it again. And I believe that Oprah Winfrey and Brad Pitt have teamed up to turn the book into a film. This is, I mean, it's Brad Pitt and Oprah Winfrey. This is the kings and queens of white people and black people, you've won the game.

This is the perfect setup. I hate to break your heart, but I've never met Brad Pitt. Wow. And, you know, I do know Oprah a little better, you know, I don't want to take any liberties here. But, you know, these are their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their the, the, Just a little better. I don't want to tell me their produce here. But, you know, these are their production companies, you know, which obviously reflected vision, you know what I mean? Yes. And it's tasks in their aesthetics, you know, again, not cast in any shade. But, you know, it's funny because like when we, we've been going throw. We've, we've, we've, we've, we've, we've been going, we've been going, we've been going, thin, we've been going, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, they. they. they. they. they. We've been, we've been, we've been, we've been going, their, their, their, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, their, their, they're, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their production. We're their production. We're their production. We're their production. We're they. We're going, they. We're they. We're going, they're going, they're going, they're going, they're going, they're going,'ve been, this is November now, so I have been in discussion with Plan B,

she's Brad Pitt's a production company, yeah, for about a year now and Jeremy Kleiner and GEDD, you know, over there. So it's been, but I talked to the people who work for them, like I talked to the day-to-day, you know what I mean? And there's this back, you know, it's constant, constant, constant, constant, the constant, thk, th constant, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, thi. And, tha. And, thi. And, thi. And, th. And, th. And, th. Like I talk to the day-to-day people, you know what I mean? And there's this back, you know, it's constant, constant conversation. I mean, I've been telling as recently as yesterday about what we're going to do, how we're going to do it. But when it's reported out, it's like, hey, Tanahasi's meet with Brad and Oprah. I mean, you're Tanahasi Coats. Look, look, look, look, the people who do work for them, they're geniuses.

They're great. I love them. I really, really do. It's just funny how it gets reported out. Because I sit on the phone with a Dede Garner and she tops, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th, the, the, the, the,'m saying their names because nobody you don't really says their names. But you know I sit on the phone with a D.D. Gardner and she tells me, you know, what films I should, I should look at it, what I should, right, right. I'm thinking about it. the film, these are the films I should look at it. Right. But when it's reported in the papers, it seems like you're in a room with Oprah and Brad Pitt being like, all right, what do we do with this character, Brad, and he's like, yo, Tanahasi, this is how I think you should do it. And Oprah's like, everybody's getting involved.

That's what it seems like. It's not like that at all. But it's still a big project, man. to some sort of, you know, you're an author, but your work evokes so much imagery that it almost lends itself to being created into some sort of film. The same thing is happening between the world and me. I got an opportunity to watch an advanced copy of it and I mean, I love the book. I mean, there's a reason it's a New York Times bestseller forever. But I think seeing the, you know, seeing people reenact portions of the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, their, their, their, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, the book, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, you're, you're, their, their, you're, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thethink seeing the, you know, seeing people reenact portions of the book in a way that makes the conversation different, it really changed the book.

I don't know how to articulate it really, because for those who don't know, you wrote the book. In 2015, it was a huge bestseller, and in many ways it shaped conversations that people have in and around race in America, you know. Now what you've done with HBO is, they've, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that thiiiiiii. that that that that that that that that that that that's, that that's, that that's, that that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that America, you know? Now what you've done with HBO is, they've created this film based on the book and it has everybody. I mean from Maharshala Ali to Oprah Winfrey and Black Thoughts and TI and Yarra Shahidi and you've just got all these people and and and Joe Morton is easily my favorite in it because of how he articulates what's happening in the book. And it's a conversation, the way you wrote it was a conversation, a letter from yourself to your then 14 year old son. When you look at what the project is now, first of all of those big names agree to do it,

and what do you think changed in the project, like when you put faces to it? So now I have to play the Brad Pitt Oprah role, because I did nothing on that film. I doubted off of feedback. Two or three things, I have no insight into why. It's a beautiful film. Let me be clear. It's beautiful. I'm not exactly sure why, or I'm not exactly sure how, you know, it was made, you know, it is directed, you know, by my the good, the good, the good, the good, by, tha, by, by, thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th. th. th. th. th. I, like, th. I, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, was made, you know, it is directed, you know,

by my good friend, Camilla Forbes, who pulled it, you know, together, you know, produced by, you know, her and Susan Colletchey Watson of This is us fame, all us went to howl it together. So there's a kind of, you know, intimacy and bond that was already, That's, you know, that's surprising when you said to me like, no, I wasn't, because I mean, you're in the film. Yes, I am. I am, I'm not, those, that is not. I would have no idea how to turn between the world and me into a film. None.

Yes. Absolutely none. And so, I just, Camilla somebody I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, th, th, th, th, th, th, th.. th. I, th. I, th. I, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. That, those. Those, those. Those, those. Those, those. Those, those. Those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, those are, those, those, those, those, those, those, those, thosetrusted because she had done the theatrical adaptation and I had worked on her for foot and saw. But when we were pitching, you know, like networks and everything, I remember being in those meetings and you know, over Zoom obviously, but being in those meetings and I wasn't nervous at all because I had really complete faith that, you know,

she was gonna do something special. What that special thing would be, I had no idea. It's not my problem. So, okay, so then, so then you were in an interesting position because you were as surprised as I was when you watched it then. So when you did watch it, did you feel like it kept the essence of what the book was, or do you think it added something different that the book didn't?

I think it added something different, man. Because I think when you write a book, when you're trying to achieve you is a very intimate one-on-one experience with a reader. You know, you want what the, you know, it's just you and the reader locked in this one place. Yep. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. threat. threathe a threat. the. the. threat. the. the. the. theat, theat, the. theat, theat, the. the. you know, the singular voice that the reader hears that comes out its collaboration between you two. Theater to say nothing of television is totally different in the sense that there was nothing I could have done within between the world and me that would have allowed for you to see it the way you see it when Angela Davis reads those words. When Yarrie reads those words, when Courtney B. Vance, you know,

it's a very different thing when my hearse, I can't do that, I can't do that. And frankly, you know, like one of the things, I think we talked about this before, you know, one of the critiqq., the crit................... It, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, the, they, they, they, they, the, toe, to, to, to, to, to, to up, you know, in terms of gender. You know, it didn't, you know, have, you know, it was this heavily black male experience that was standing up for the point of experience. You know, and my thing was always, I hear that, but I really don't know what I, as a writer, you know what I mean, could do, you know, very differently within the scope of what that book was. And I saw it open and it said, dear son, dear daughter, your nephew, dear cousin. You know what I mean?

Even the value factor, as I said, having, you know, black women, having trans, you know, women in that, you know, reading, it opens up. It becomes something that is much more than the book could actually, you know, be. That's amazing, man. I found myself wondering when I was watching it. I was like, this is a book that you wrote for your son. I mean, you know, it's for the people, but you wrote it to your son, your 14-year-old son at the time. I would love to know what conversations you have with your son now, who's 19 and also what you would have said to him then, but he was too young for you to have a conversation about,

like how is that relationship evolved? So, so you turn 20 in August, which is a crucial age. It's a very, very crucial age, because you know, he's not, obviously, he's very much not a boy anymore. He's very much a young man, you know, an adult out on his own. I find myself, it's funny these days, probably listening to Samaritan,

I find myself telling him anything. He has his own interests, you know, his own, you know, things that he's pursuing. And so probably never more in my life in our relationship, have I actually listened more than I talked actually. Wow. Wow. It's fascinating. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I's I's I's I's I's I's I's I's I's I's I's I' I' I' I' I' I' I' I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more, I'll more more. I'll to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to listening, I to to to me more, I to me more, I'm more, I' to me more, I' to me more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more more. I' to me. I's more more more. I's more. I' to me. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll more. I'll to me. I'll to me. I'll thi. I'll thi. I'll thi- I'll thi-a, I'm more thi-a, I'm more thi-a, I'm more to so listening. I'll actually listened more than I talked, actually. Wow. Wow. It's fascinating.

It's fascinating. I'll never be a 20-year-old, you know, young black male right now. I'm gonna have that experience. You know, it's kind of fascinating, listening to her, you know, to talk and how you see the world. What would you say is the biggest is the biggest is the biggest is the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, the biggest, thi, thi, the biggest, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, to, to, to, to, toooan, tooan, tooan, tooan, tooan, tooan, toooan, toooooo...... two of you see the world. I'm sure you have a lot of similarities, but I find, you know, like I'll have it with my younger brother, for instance, or anyone really, if you share a connection with them,

but they're of a different generation, sometimes they'll, they just see one part of the world in a different way to you because of when they were born and how they were raised. Do you have something like that where where where where where that where you the that where the the was with 10 times the confidence and maybe 10 times the opportunity. Wow. Yeah, I recognize a lot of myself in him, but he's just much, much more confident. And I think that comes out of how, or where,

rather not even how where he was raised, as opposed to, you know, where I was raised the environment. I was in me and my wife talk about this all the the opportunity, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, the ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, and, and, and, and ti, and ti, and ti, and ti, ti, ti, and ti, and ti, and ti, and ti, and ti, and ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, ti, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, te, te, the the a te, the a te, the a te, te, te, the a te, te, te, te, t how, where, you know, he was raised as opposed to, you know, where I was raised the environment. I was in, me and my wife talk about this all the time, you know, about how, you know, we were constantly shielding ourselves from things, you know, ducking, you know, worried about what was going to happen here. And he has a lot less of that, thus, you know, and thus has a much, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, you, you, you know, you know, you know, you know, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, th. to, to, to, to, to, to, to know, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, you know, almost out of his share will, you know, just conjure things. You know, and to the extent that there is some, you know, talk back, it's often, you know, pulling him back from that, you know, because I think, you know, it's good. It's good. I really love to see it, but, you know, sometimes you can go a little too far with that. Before I let you go, I have to ask you a question that I think I've asked you every single

time you've been on the show because you're my favorite person and only person I asked this question to, but looking at the election and looking at like the vaccines and just like where we are now, how optimistic is Tanahasi Coates now about America? It's a struggle. It's a struggle. It's going to be a struggle for a while while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while for a while while for a while for a while for to be a struggle for a while, I think. I think there was enormous damage done over the last four years. I think for a party to deny the previous president the opportunity to appoint a Supreme Court judge a lifetime appointment, to win but not through the popular vote, and then to appoint three and four years. I think the damage to democratic legitimacy, piled on to everything else that, you know, Trump is done, I think is enormous, I think is enormous, I think is enormous.

And I expect to actually outlive me the damage to that. I think it's really significant. So I think we're in for some tough times, you know, but again, I think I've said this before, being African-American, being a progeny of people who are enslaved in this country for 250 years and, who lived th th to, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, you, th, you, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, to, and, and, to, and, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to toooooooooooooooooooi, togu, toguuuuu.e, thi, too, too, too, and, geny of people who are enslaved in this country for 250 years and, you know, who lived through, you know, another subsequent hundred years of Jim Crow, having, you know, been born at the time and a rise of mass incarceration, you know, ever thus, when was it not, you know, as it is?

Is it worse than it was then? No, it's not worse, you know, I wouldn't say that. So this is this this this this this this th this is th th th th th th th th th th is th is th is thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thia. thi. thi. thiole. thiole. thiole. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. toeea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi was then, no. It's not worse, you know, I wouldn't say that, you know. So this is the condition, you know, this is where we are. As always, ma'am, I appreciate having you on. I'm excited for the movie adaptation of your book that you're not working on with Brad put and Oprah, and I'm excited for the film that was made from your work, but you were just like, yeah, I'm excited for you man. Thank you so much to taking the time. Good seeing you and look off yourself. Thank you. Thank you. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11th, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central Act. Watch full episodes and videos at the daily show. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it.

This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling? But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look, starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts.

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