The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Illustrating Black Joy in Children's Books | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: June 18, 2023

Children’s books craft the way a young person sees the world, and this view carries on well into adulthood. Daily Show researcher Stephanie O. and CEO, founder, and author of “Hey Carter!” books, Dr. Thomishia Booker, sit down with Roy Wood Jr. to discuss the importance of positively representing Black boys in children’s literature to help them develop their own sense of self.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes. The Daily Show podcast that goes a little deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the show. Like, if you add hot chocolate, like, the Daily Show is a cup of hot chocolate. And we're all the little extra condiments and all the little extra steguets and strips that originally aired on the show. Like, if you add hot chocolate, like, if you're all all, like, like, the the the the the the the the th.. the little, the little, the little, th. the little, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. You're thi, you're thi. You're thi. You're thi. You're thi. You're th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. You, you th. You. You, you're th. th. You're th. You're th. th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're thin. You're th. You're th th th th th th th th th thin. th th th th thin th th th th thin. th th th chocolate, okay, like the Daily Show is a cup of hot chocolate, and we're all the little extra condiments and all the little extra stuff you add in

to make it that much sweeter. We're the whipped cream, the caramel swirl, the large marshmallows, the cinnamon powder. Damn, I should have made that for myself. If I did this podcast, now I'm hungry. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. th. the. th. the. thired. the. thired. the. the. thathea. the the thathea. thathea. toa. toa. toa. the the the that. told. told. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. thi. thi. toda. toda. today. today. today. today. today. today. today. today. today. today. the the'm hungry. Anyway, today we're diving deeper into a topic covered on the Daily Show by our correspondent Dulce Sloan in her segment Dulcane. She covered the various gender stereotypes present in children's books. Give me a clip. The fact is, children's books play a big role in shaping our views of adults, whether it's

about race, culture, or proper pooping etiquette. But one of the areas they influence kids the most is gender roles, and that's a big problem. Because when it comes to gender, most of these books are more outdated than a pair of jank-o-jane. I mean, why were they so big? We try to sneak Kevin Hart into the movie, because, chances are, he's already in it. But speaking of little people, thi thi thi thi thi th th th th th th th th th th th th th th, th, thi, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, thi, because, because, because, because th, because thi, because th, because th, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, because, th, because, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, th, thi, thi, thi. thi. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the the the ththis is something we should all be paying attention to because by the age of seven, children's ideas about what they can be when they grow up are already formed. And what do you think those ideas are going to be when they've been reading books like this? Dick and Jane, the book series that almost every first grader was reading in the 1950s and 60s, and it was notorious for portraying stereotypical gender roles. Look at that that that that that that that that th that th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th at th at th at th at th at th at th at th at th at th at that that that that, that, thi thi thi thi, thi thi, thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, children thi, children th. their their their their their children their children their children their their their their their their their their, children their, th. their, their, their, th. But, th. But, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, the the thin, thin, children's the. children'spical gender roles. Look at that. The dad and the brother are out playing with Spot, and the mom is inside cleaning up spots.

I mean, what is that? A puddle of pee? Was our Kelly their dinner guest? And look at poor Jane in this one. She can't even have a little fun without doing some chores. Can't a girl just roller skate? She has to sweep too. What's next? She's gonna have to jump rope while making a sandwich? Joining us today for this conversation is Daily Show Deep Dive Researcher Stephanie. Oh, Stephanie is the one who actually pitched this segment.

Stephanie, you are here because of your own creativity. Now you have more work to do by being on this podcast. How are you doing? I'm doing good. I'm excited to be here. Sure you are. See we're ambition, got you? Also joining us is the CEO owner and author of Hey Carter Books. Dr. Temisha Booker. Doctor, welcome to the show. How you feeling today? Doing good. Thank you. All right. Well, let's get into this topic because this is one, you know, as a father of a six-year-old. It's one that I'm starting to be a little more present in, you know, you know, like I found my son going, that's a boy color and that's a girl color and things of that nature and that's nothing

we've ever really taught at the house. But Stephanie, I want to start with you. What made you pitch thi. What made you know??? to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the the the to to thi. the thi. thi. thi. thi. to to to to to tho. to to to thi. thi. tho. to to to to to th. th. th. th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th th th th th th th th. I th. I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. I the. I the. I the. I the. I theateateate. I theate. I toeateate. I toeate. I toe. I toeate. I toe. I toe. I the. I the. I the. I think for me I just really reflected on like books that I read as a kid and You know we're in a period where a lot of books are being banned So I was just like fascinated by that entire idea like what children are reading what they're interested in and And I stumbled upon some research that was particularly interesting that was basically saying that female characters are disproportionately like had certain roles like as maids or princesses and things like that versus like male characters in children's books and I was like this is something we absolutely need to do a piece on so that's

that's kind of how it happened. Like and that's a cool thing about this building is that anybody can pitch anything at any given time and it is game because that's that that's that's a cool thing about this building is that anybody can pitch anything at any given time and it is game. Because when I saw Dosey do this piece, I was like, oh, well yeah, that is, yeah. What the hell is going on? Because we, you know, Dr. Booker, the thing about the Daily Show is that we're always kind of going back and forth with essentially two different types of stories. There is the story that you that you you you you you you you you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi tho thi that that that that is thi thi that is thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th is thi th is game th is game th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is thi thi thi that is that is game that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th about the Daily Show is that we're always kind of going back and forth with essentially two different types of stories. There's the story that you want to hear about and you want more information on, you know, what do people want to hear about versus what we think you need to know about? And I think that's always kind of in the back and forth.

Like Stephanie, what books did you read growing up and like did any of those books have an impact on this segment, you know, in terms of what you decided to pitch? Definitely. So it's funny, so like a book that I often read as a kid was like the Berenstein Bears series and it was always interesting like Sister Bear never really got to do a lot or Mama Bear was always like in the kitchen. So that, thinking back to those kind of stories definitely impacted this research and this information that I found. Also, another story I really loved as a kid was Amelia Bedelia. Okay, Doc knows.

Amilia Bidilia. Okay, Doc knows. Amelia. I was a way. I was like an encyclopedia Brown. Oh, okay, you were reading encyclopedias. Okay, you were much more accomplished young child than I said. Oh, you said an encyclopedia, I was like, what? But, so Amelia Vidalia was basically this made, but she was always finding herself in these ridiculous situations. She was kind of like, fumbling, bumbling. So in one hand, I appreciated, I was, you, you, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was you, I was you, I was th, I was th, I was you, I was th, I was you, I was you, I was you, I was you were you were you were you were the, you were you were the, you were you, you. You were thi, you were thi, you were you were you were you were you were you. You were, you were, you. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. You, you, you, you. You. You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th. You, th, th, thi, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, but she was always finding herself in these ridiculous situations. She was kind of like fumbling, bumbling.

So in one hand, I appreciated it for its comedic aspect as a comedian, like that was great to me at the time. But then when you start to think about, like, as an adult, I think about those stories, it was like, why was she portrayed so dumb? Like, she was running an entire household and she couldn't do it right but somehow she still managed to keep her job to keep having these ridiculous scenarios it was just it doesn't make sense as an adult as a child absolutely but as an adult it's like okay well how are we portraying

this woman and why is she portrayed in this way and it becomes really just really fascinating so yeah. Dr. Booker before you answer the same question I'm try and guess what she was reading as a this this this th to th th to th th to th to th th th th the to the the to the the to to the the th to the to the to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to keep she to keep her she to to to to to to to to keep her to keep her to keep her to keep to keep to keep to keep to keep to keep to keep to keep to keep to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the the the the the the the the the. the. the the the the the the. the the. the. the. thee. thee. the th. Booker, before you answer the same question, I'm gonna try and guess what you was reading as a child. I'm gonna try now, I don't want you to laugh. There are no judgment if my guess is too far off. I'm gonna say a little bit of Curious George at first. Just a sprinkling of Curious George. And then as you matriculated a little older in the middle school,

I'm gonna say, the Hobbit? Eh. Eh. Ehh. Just, just, okay, fine, what were you reading? What books were you reading? And how did that impact you as an adult? I did read a little curious, George. It didn't stick out to me when I was reflecting on what I read.

The Hobbit definitely not. What sticks out to me is babysitters club? That sets out to me. Mostly what I remember is not being able to find myself in books, like not being able to find characters that look like me that reflect in my experiences a lot of that. And I didn't latch on to reading in books because of that. I was also raised by my grandmother who was white, my mom was biracial, and they were not very centered in their blackness.

So I was not surrounded by a lot of those books. And I think that just really impacted the trajective of my life, especially just not having those direct messages. Okay, so then recognizing where the gaps were, what was it that you thought was lacking in children's literature? Because you start writing the Hey Carter books, but the only reason we start doing anything is because we think that we have something to offer that space that isn't already there. Like you don't strike me as a

person just go, well I can do what the Bernstein Bears do I just copy it? Like no. You were clearly trying to do something greater. But what was it that you thought was lacking and what was the problem that you were actively trying to fix? So I think first a lot of the children's books you see books about animals right? People always want to write these children's books and showcase animals before they want to showcase a diverse or a black character. So for me when I was pregnant with my son I just felt the heaviness of what that meant I felt the responsibility of that and to to to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do to do something to do to do to do to do to do to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to do to do to do the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. the the thee. thean. the the thi. thi. thi. thi. the heaviness of what that meant. I felt the responsibility of that and wanted to do something.

And it was also kind of a cathartic moment for me because it opened up this really creative part of me that I did not tap into before. Most of all the writing that I did prior to becoming a mother was in school. It was educational writing, it was curriculum based, it was research base. And so this was kind of like allowed me to untap a piece of myself. And I was doing research and trying to build my son's book library and realize, where are all the black boys? I did not see them on the front cover.

I did not see, there was a lack of diversity in children's books all around, but specifically black boys. And for me, writing books is not about just creating tools, but just changing narratives. Books have the ability to speak to children and tell them what the world thinks of them, and then what they should then think of themselves. And I wanted my son to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to have messages to and then what they should then think of themselves. And I wanted my son to have messages that were written by me so much that I was in control of and images that I was in control of that he can see himself and then when he steps into those spaces it's a tool to be used in those spaces so he can have a positive narrative of an accurate narrative of who he is. How difficult was it in trying to like the, I guess the R the R the R the R the R the R the R the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi the, the, the, th. the the the the the the. the the that were that were that were that were that were that were that were that were that were that were that were th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the, I thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. the, thrown the, thrown the, the, the, was it in trying to, like, the, I guess the R&D and the development of it, like

I don't know a lot about literature and being an author and trying to bring a book to market. Like, the only comparison I could even have just as a layman, like I know if I was trying to rap, I would put my rap on a CD, well, not a CD now. But you would you would you would you would you would you would you would the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the the thi. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. I. I. I. I. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I guess, I'm, I'm, I guess, I'm, I'm, I guess, I'm, I guess, I'm, I guess, I'm, I'm the th. I'm th. I was trying to rap, I would put my rap on a CD, well, not a CD now, but you would make a demo and then you would spread that around to people for free or try and get it in the hands of big decision makers and the music in the street. So when you decide to create a, as a black woman author, already black and woman, strike two, and then you writing about black boys,, Strike 3. What was the process of just even trying to get any of this to market? Yeah, it's difficult. I mean, I'm a self-publish author.

Everything I've done has been on my own. I used money from my full-time job to fund it. You know, I work as a hospital administrator and safety net in Oakland. And self-publishing, it's difficult. I mean, you, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's it's difficult, it's it's difficult. It's it's it's it's difficult. It's difficult. It's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's a thiiii. It's a thi. It's a thi. It's difficult. thi. thi. thi. thi. It's difficult. It's difficult. thi. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's difficult. It's a to pieces is trying to fund this project. And self-publishing, it's difficult. I mean, you start off as wanting to write a book, but really what you stepped into is you're starting a book business. So you need to have marketing strategy. There's branding, there's the illustration, there's all this research that you need to do. And to be honest, I made a lot of mistakes. I made some costly mistakes I just had no clue I was using Google to inform my decisions which

is terrible. If there's anybody who wants to write a book specifically a children's book you definitely need someone to guide you through that process. Craig's list is where you should go you should want to continue. You definitely need someone to sort of just kind of hold your hand through it because you can make some costly mistakes, which I did. And it has a little bit of what you said Roy about that, like, you know, taking a CD and putting it there. I had to get my book to my community.

I learned early on and quickly who my book was for and how to get it in their hands. One of the first events I did was the Black Joy Parade in Oakland and that's where my people are. That's where my community is. That's where black families are. That's where black children are. We sold out of books because we got it in the right hands. But I also learned a valuable lesson, which is don't understock your inventory. It's not a good thing to sell out of books. You want to always have books to sell.

So it's just been a continual journey of learning this book business, but it's a grind. It's constantly getting your books out there. I started in 2016 and here I am still talking about these books and more of my projects. Well, after the break, I want to talk a little bit about the backlash that you face from having books that are focused, that are so focused on one specific demographic, but also the benefits of this. And we'll get into that after the break.

This is beyond the scenes. Dr. Booker, you've already made me feel inferior as the father of a six-year-old because you've already included your child in a book series title, Hey Carter. My child, you know, I gave him a came on one of my stand-up comedy specials. Not quite the same thing. Do you think your son understands just how amazing this is? Does he understand how rare this is? It's funny you say that because even with my book my son on the cover of several books I'm still not cool enough for him like he's not a muse. You know the my book Brown Boy Joy was featured on Netflix where Jill Scott read my book. And of course, I was just like, oh my God, this is so amazing. You know, you can tell Netflix to watch mommy, you know,

watch this. And he was like, oh, like super underwhelmed by it. So I totally, totally get where you're coming from there. I thi think over think over think over thi thi thi thi thi the thi thi thi the thi thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. thi. tho, toe. thi. thi. told, told, told, told, told, tho, tho, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. toe. toe. toe. toe. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. toe. toe. toe. toe. too. toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. I'm, toe. I'm, th. I coming from there. I think over time he sees it, you know, I wrote a recent book. It's called Froz, Brades, Fades, and Waves, and I used a painter to illustrate the book and they really were able to capture his face and a portrait style. And when I showed him the book, he's like, Mommy, it's me. And I'm just like, dude, it's been you it's always been you you're on all the covers of these books but I think he was actually able to see

it I think above all he's super exposed to black entrepreneurship and black business and I think he sees that he sees us running a business he sees us out there talking to the community and so I know that has impacted him. Also I think he's just really centered in his blackness. is out there talking to the community. And so I know that has impacted him. Also I think he's just really centered in his blackness. He's so far ahead of where I was as a child. I think I was, I know at his age, I was busy trying to conform to whiteness, busy trying to hide my blackness.

And, you know, they hear me be unapologetically black and so they know what that looks like and what that feels like and so I think my books have really helped to center him in his blackness and you know when he's looking for a good bedtime story it's nothing better than him pulling out mine. Stephanie I know that we only have a limited amount of time in the dual saying segments to really get into, you know, like we we essentially only have time for one or two things. How the problem happened or how to solve the problem? And there's also a bigger degree of backlash that a lot of, you know,

that a lot of authors like Dr. Booker face. What were some of the pieces that ended up on the cutting room floor for this segment that you all just didn't have the time to get to? I guess I think of it more in terms of like specific stories that are like classics that are problematic that we didn't address. And a particular author comes to mind, Roald Dahl. He wrote like Matilda and the Witches and a series of other very famous and very popular children's books. And there was a lot of sexism in those books, but there was also a lot of anti-Semitism in those books, and a lot of racism in those books.

And it was just, I think it was more so a matter of, he's got a lot of issues, we got a, we need to just bring it in and bring it down and kind of focus on the ones that we had. And I think we, with the examples that we provided, they're very strong and obviously important examples as well. But that would be someone I definitely would have loved to have seen in the piece just because of his stories being so well known. Matilda has been a very successful movie franchise and stuff like that and so, and they've

made a number of witches movies as well. So that would be someone I would have liked to have added in there. Because while we focus on sexism, you know, in this conversation we're definitely talking about the racial elements and I think the piece wasn't necessarily able to address that and it's always been an issue in children's bookwriting as well. So, well, you know, let's let's do backlash from two different perspectives. I want to zoom in first on you Dr. Booker and then I want to come back out to just the people who are against the revisions, or at least acknowledging a lot of the bullshit that's in a lot of the stuff that we've been reading up into this day and it's just accepted as literary canon.

But first, Dr. Booker, was there any backlash from people for you choosing black boys? Because what I do know about the internet is that if you love one thing, everyone assumes you hate all the other things. So if you dare to say, yay black boys, please just, just let me know that nothing else happened, right? Everything is smooth, right? You know, there's been a lot of different comments and feedback on the book. I mean, I think a lot of his questions like why, you know, asking me, why are the only black boys in the books? You know, why are you choosing to write about black boys?

And my response is always like, why not? You know, black boys deserve their shine. They need to be front and their their center. And my books are about elevating black joy and there's nothing wrong about that. You know, people will say, you know, why are you writing a book just for black boys? And it's like, well, there's tons of books with just white characters and we don't even refer to them as white books. We say that this is the education, this is the literature, this is what you need to consume and it doesn't have this special title. So I always say my books my my my my my my my my books tha my books tha my books tha my books tha. My my books th. My books thi. My books. My books. My books. My books. My books. My books. My books. My books. My books. My books th. My books th. My books th. My books th. My books th. My books thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. to. to. I. I. I. I. to. to. to. to. to. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. you need to consume and it doesn't have this special title. So I always say my books are for black children. They're written for black children, but they are not just for black children. They are for all children and it's really, really important that non-black children consume the content and see all of the joy.

One specific black clash that I get a lot in brown boy joy is I have a page in there where the kids, the boys, are playing with toys and one of the boy is holding a doll. That's literally all you see is he's holding a doll. And you know I get messages and you can see on my Amazon reviews. I have very few, you know, one-rated reviews and they say that I'm trying to demasculate black men, you know, I get DM saying, you know, why is this boy playing with dolls when this is a book for boys? And I'm like, aren't dolls toys? Do boys play with toys? See my sister, you've got to understand it. If you're part of a

capitalistic structure that is made to dismantle the black family. Exactly. So I just, you know, I, you know, when this book, particularly is about allowing as many black boys specifically to see themselves in that book. So that means them being interested in an array of hobbies. They're doing gardening in the book. They, of course, they're playing with trucks and dinosaurs, but they're also having a slumber party. They're coloring, they're, you know, they're just being in their joy. And we can't, we don't want to take that away from children and we definitely want to put a friend center.

What was it like when you first created this, you were just like, I just loved black boys. And then someone goes, you don't like black girls. Like, how difficult is it to remain steadfast and what your creative North Star is in the face of this type of constant feedback, you know, from a small but loud minority? You know, I chose to self-publish because I wanted to be in control of the messages that I put out when I wanted. to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say to say like like like like like like like like like like like like like to say like like like like like like to say like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like like to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the the the the the the to the the the the the the to their their, their, th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. to thi. to thi. thi. I chose to self-publish because I wanted to be in control of the messages that I put out when I wanted to say them and how I wanted to save them. So though that type of feedback is just a reminder that I don't, as a self-published author,

I don't answer to anybody. I create, I curate the content that I want for black children. And no one's going to impact that. I mean, I was sort of, I wouldn't say I'm shocked because when it comes to centering blackness, there's always going to be opinions. There's always going to be people who try to dim our light. So I wasn't, you know, too shocked by that. But it's just a reminder, like it makes me want to to to to write to write to write to write to write, you to write, you to write, you to write, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you to write, you to, to to, you to, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,. It makes me want to be, you know, even more deep into that black message. Like it makes me want to write books titled, Like, I'm black and proud. You know, it wants me to really even go even further with it. So I sort of use it as a way

to open up more conversation about why is it a problem for you to have black boys playing with a doll? Why is it a problem for you to see black boys happy? What is the problem with black joy and black happiness? Because it's not a problem for me, you know, so just trying to ship that back for them to do a little inner inner work and see weirdly what that is and we know that's all centered around anti-blackness and that's definitely work that they need to do. Well we look forward to your next book Kiss My Black Ass all of you hate us. Which will be available and hardcover.

Stephanie, Dr. Booker is creating the type of literature that was missing in a time when the problematic literature flourished. Why do you think there is so much pushback nationally from people who don't even want to just sit for a second and acknowledge, hey, maybe that wasn't as good of a book as we thought it was, and maybe we should stop fucking reading it. I think that's the next question. I would say, you know, I honestly think it has to do with nostalgia.

We couldn't even take the end word out of Huck Finn. They was like, come on. It's nostalgia and it's holding on to these sort of old experiences and people associate maybe that book with their childhood and the in-word with their childhood. And so it's holding on to their to- Exactly, the good old days, you know, back when America was great again. That's when, that's what they're holding on to, that whole idea of like nostalgia.. their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th. thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, and, thi, thi, th, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, th, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, to, to, to, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, to, back when America was great again. That's when, that's what they're holding on to, that whole like idea of like nostalgia. And so, especially when you go after something like children's books, it's like, well, it's just a book. What, what's the big deal? Because they've got that nostalgia. And that's problematic in the sense that it's like not wanting to move forward or not wanting to reflect on history. And, okay, so so so so so so so so so that, so that, so that, so that, so that that that that that that that that that that that that th. So, so, that that th. So, that's, thi, thi. thi. thi's, thi's thi's thi's to to thi's thi's thi's like, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their their, their, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to go, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, their is, their their their their their their thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their okay, so that was a story from your past, but the context in which that story was written, there are a lot of people that were suffering

and that were oppressed, and women were not in a good place, and still struggling, but the women were not in a good place at all. And so, to hold on to that and not see that, you know, the context in which that story was written was a bad time for a lot of people is, it's like intentionally obtuse, like it's intentionally ignorant, just for the sake of your own nostalgia. And that's problematic.

It's like, it doesn't take away from your memories, but it's like acknowledging that people went through something and Everything from children's books to cinema was influenced by what was going on in that time To that same point then dr. Booker what have some of your conversations been with other authors? I'm sure that you all have had conversations about, you know other authors that also choose to focus you know hyper focus on specific demographics or specific to focus, you know, hyperfocus on specific demographics or specific types of books, what has been the conversations amongst them as well

about a lot of the backlash that's happening, about actually having something that speaks to a specific group of people within literature? I think most of the authors that I definitely surround myself with, they're with the, let's create all the band books that we can, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi,. They're, I mean, they're with it. They're with the, let's create all the band books that we can, you know. We want to continue to create the books that we know our children need and we are taking agency over our creative works and wanting to make sure that our students, our black students get this content and if that means we have to create it ourselves. And know to Stephanie's point about some of these books that I do think a lot of people are saying are nostalgic and feel like

it's taking away their their childhood it's it's a lack of accountability because they have to also and I think I get that it's painful too because if you accept that the book is wrong you also have to accept that the person the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. th. the. th. th. the. th. th. the. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. to to to to to to to to to. to. to. to. to. to. I's is. I's is. I'm to. I'm the th wrong, you also have to accept that the person who exposed you to it was in the wrong. You have to also accept that the messages that you received growing up about that book were wrong. If I were to open up any of those books now and read them to my children, I as a parent, I would stop reading the book or I would use that as an educational moment to tell the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thoeckeckeckeck, thoeck, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, throwne, throwne, throwne, throwne, throwne, throwne, thrown, tho, tho, tho, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thrown, throwne, throwne, throwne, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe....ean, throooooooooooooo.. And, th as an educational moment to talk to my child about the things that are happening in the world. And that's what books are for. They're supposed to be teaching our children lessons because all those books that these, you

know, everyone says nostalgic, you learned something from that. You were taught how to behave as a woman. You were taught about what was acceptable as a boy, as a girl, you took in all those messages and we can't continue to share this type of content with our children. And if their children are still reading those books, you have to think how that's impacting their life and how they're going into their spaces with that information. Because I know my children, my sons, particularly when he's reading a book, he's asking questions. You know, he asked me not too long ago, why are all the superheroes white?

I said that's a great question. First of all, they're not all of them. There are a few that are black. But, two or three, Falcon, Luke, spawn, right. Spawn, spawn. Spawn made a deal with the devil. Spawn down in here. But yeah, superior, okay, spawn. Technically.

So they get it, you know, they're get it and they're questioning things. And I think when you continue to show a child a narrative where little girls are only in the kitchen or submissive or don't even have speaking roles in books, you're teaching them something, and they will begin to respond to that. Well, we've talked about the problem, and we've talked about the haters who are creating the problem, we talked about, but now we need to figure out some solutions to the problem and see how things have changed from our childhood until now.

We'll wrap it up with a wonderful, wonderful discussion about children's literature. This is Beyond the Scenes. We'll be right back. Beyond the Scenes, welcome back. We are talking about children's literature and representation in children's literature, the problematic children's literature that we were all raised on, even though some of it, you know it was it. Like really, the Threethree bears was a story about burglary, you know, you know, and also a little bit about white entitlement if you really want to get, if you really dig, dig down into the real root of the issue. White girl coming in these bears house, eating up their shit. Though I feel like I might, okay, maybe I'm reaching with that part of it. But let's

talk, you know, as we as we wrap up here, ladies, have you seen a progression, like, just in terms of the representation in children's books from your childhood until now? Because, you know, I have a six-year-old, so I read a lot as a child, but most of what I read that I remember was books on tape of popular movies. So my mother would take me to a movie, and then you would get the book version of that movie, and then the tape, and you would read along with the tape, and that's kind of how I learned to read. So I never had like the plethora of Bearstein Bears or Bernstein, I have it a hell you see it now. Like I didn't have the plethora of Dr. Seuss stuff like it was animal books and books on tape primarily. And so with my son, what I have noticed is that there's a huge amount of representation in children's television, but which I know is much better than what it was in the 80s, but

what about you all? And I'll start with you Dr. Booker. How much better is representation from when you were a child until now? You know, I'll definitely say it's better. I think just, you know, as evidence of like my kids have a full bookshelves of just black books, you know, so I didn't have that. I definitely there's a lot more, but th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi, but thi, but thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to their, to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thr. I to to to to to to to throoooooooooooooooooooooo, toe, their, too, their, their, their, I didn't have that. I definitely think there's a lot more, but we could do much, we mean, we have so far to go. We need a lot more books. And I think even in television, you know, my work is centered around black boys and, you know, one of my goals has always been to create an animated series, on boys because you even you look at animated

series for children, where is the black boy front and center? Where is that brilliant black boy as the main character? You know, black children don't need to be the sidekick. They need to be the main character in charge of the narrative and in a story that represents their truth. So, yeah, animated, no. There's not. Like, I wouldn't even count Miles Morales, Spider-Man, because that's more teenager, you know, preteen. That's not like five, six, seven year old.

Or even like the preschool shows, it sucks that my kid, my daughter, is addicted to cocoa melon. And there is one black character, but he's like not the main character and I think they've tried to to do that more recently, but the black boys, they're just not, they're not front and center and that's a huge problem. I mean there are some of my favorite books. I I am every good tha tha tha tha tha tha tha th. th. th. th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's all th. It's all th. It's all th. It's th. It's thi. It's all th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. th. It's th. th. It's th. th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all. It's all th. It's all th. It's all th. It's all th. It's all th. It's all th. It's all th. It's all th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th. It's th are some of my favorite books. I love I'm Every Good Thing by Derek Barnes. It just it's all about that black joy and just putting black boys front and center and all their brilliance and that's one of my favorites right now. Stephanie what about you? What were some of the things that you read growing up and I guess have you seen a progression just in terms of the research that you did for this piece that you go oh okay okay?? oh oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, th... th. th. Oh, th. Oh, the, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. Oh, th. What, th. What, the, the, th. the, the, th. th. th. thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, th. the, th. th. the, th. th. th. th. the, the, th. the, the, th. the, th. the, th. the, th. the, th. the, th. the, th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. te. te. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thms of the research that you did for this piece, that you go, oh, okay, it is a little bit better. Yeah, I would have to agree with Dr. Booker.

There definitely is a progression. We are seeing a lot more representation, particularly thinking about the peace in particular, girls being able to have jobs that are not like made or princess or some sort of damsel and distress but actually being able to be like a scientist. Like I think there's an entire, and I do not recall the name of the series, but there's like an animated series with a little black girl that's like into science and exploration and that's on Ada, thank you on Netflix. Yes, yes on Netflix and so things like that I think is wonderful but I would say that I think we're in a period of where there's like a lot more representation starting to develop because of a lot

of things that have happened. 2020 being one of them is like, oh wait a minute, people actually want to see themselves. We still have a long way to go. And I think going from like limited to no representation to suddenly there's representation, that doesn't mean that the problem is solved. It means that, okay now we're, now we're at ground floor, and then we just go up from there and continue to make them more dynamic and more interesting and in different places where you wouldn't expect them to be or doing different things. And so I think that there's still a long way to go.

Yeah. Dr. Booker, I want to end with this, and forgive me if this question is a little too broad, but I I I I to to to to to to thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.. And, toeei. And, toei. And, toei. And, toei. And, toea. And, toea. And, toe. And, thi. And, thi. And,er, I want to end with this and forgive me if this question is a little too broad, but I want to expand it a little bit beyond just young black boys. For parents of whatever child they have and whatever demographic that child, whatever boxes that child might check, why is it important to read to children with literature that represents their identity? Like, how does that, how does that represents their identity. Like how does that how does that help restore an innocence in a child? Yeah I mean protecting the innocence of children is is super important. I think you know I was saying earlier that books have the ability to essentially teach

children what the world is thinking of them which they in turn will think of themselves and so if you are showing a child a book that they cannot see themselves the the their their their their their their their th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi th. thi. thi. thi. thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How thi. How th. How th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. How th. th. How th. th. How th. How th. How th. How th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi what the world is thinking of them, which they in turn will think of themselves. And so if you are showing a child a book that they cannot see themselves in, they start to question where they fit in. And I think really people underestimate how dangerous the lack of representation can be. When a child is in a classroom,

when they are in their homes reading, they need to be able to literally see themselves on the pages. You have to see it to believe it, right, in order to know that things are possible. If there is a boy who doesn't feel like his identity is reflected, he then starts to feel that he cannot be himself. He cannot show the world who he really is because, obviously, in the books that he reads, which are telling him what the world thinks of it, he doesn't even exist. So, you know, for some parents who are uncomfortable with certain topics or uncomfortable with exposing their children

to things, books are a way to have that conversation for you if you choose the right book. And so it's important to have a diverse library selection, to have books that are going to teach those messages. And surround your children with all the spectrum of identities, the spectrum of culture, the spectrum of various ethnicities, and just experiences. Children have to be exposed to narratives that differ from their others. You do not want them centered in a world that

is singular that only involves people that look like them and have the same experiences them. Some people will say to that, then why black books just about with black children? It's like, well, we need to center around our blackness because we've had so much anti-blackness saying a counter-narrative. So it's that's why these books are important for us. But I expose my children to a variety of books. It's not just read these black books, but definitely take those in and read all books and really teaching them to question and think about what books are telling them.

So I would say to parents, when you're reading these books afterwards, have a conversation, what did you see in this book? What did this book teach you? How do you feel about yourself now that you've read this book? What does this tell you about your friends and their family members? So books are tools not just about reading comprehension, but messages throughout life? I don't think that there is a better place for us to dismount than right there. Thank you so much for your expertise and sharing it with us today, Dr. Booker.

Stephanie O, I will see you in the hallways of the Daily Show. I'm not going to swing by the deep dive. You do. I never come down there. You're all too far. We're like, where's Roy. It's like nine offices all the way down the hall. I don't do a nine office walk. Three, four doors at the most. Thank you all so much for joining us. And hopefully by now we've taken you beyond the scenes.

Play my music. Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast.