The Daily Show: Ears Edition - India.Arie Discusses Spotify and Joe Rogan | India.Arie

Episode Date: February 15, 2022

Grammy Award-winning artist India.Arie has a special conversation with Trevor about how Spotify compensates artists and reflects on Joe Rogan's history of using the N-word on his podcast. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Coming to you from the heart of Times Square in New York City, the only city in America. It's The Daily Show, Ears Edition. Tonight, India Armin joins us on the show to have a special conversation about Spotify and Joe Rogan. This is the Daily Show with Trevor Noah. Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome to the Daily Show. I'm Trevor Noah.

Tonight we had an episode planned around the Super Bowl and Ukraine and just catching up on all of the news. But I had truly one of my favorite conversations with a human being that I ever thought I could have. And that's with our guest today, multi-gramming award-winning artist India Ari. She was here to talk about Joe Rogan and everything that's going on with Spotify. And to be honest with you, I think the conversation turned into something way

more beautiful and I appreciated her sharing it with me, and so I decided I had to share it with you and I really think that you will appreciate it. So just for today, here it is, a special episode that is one conversation that I think touches on almost everything. Miss India RE, welcome to the Daily Show. Thank you, it's a pleasure to be here. It's a pleasure for me. I've been a fan of yours. From the moment you came out, loved your music. I know you're not not not a the the their their their their their tha tha thia, thia, thia, thia, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thioli, too, to be tooomoomoomoomoomoomoom-s. That's, tooom. I is, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, tooomp. That's, too, t. That's, toomp. That's, toomorrow, toomorrow, toomorrow, toge?? toge. toge. toea. togeueueueueue. toomorrow, touche. I'm, touche, by the way, I know you're not the hair, but I cannot not comment on it.

I know it's been a journey for you. Thank you very much. We both have more hair than normal. Thank you very much. Yeah, we're both on this journey together, you know. I need to find out what products you use. We'll discuss off the out. Stop here. You know, I wanted to have you on the show so we could chat. And you know, it's funny, your name.

I'm sorry, can I just say I'm nervous? And you know what, I like that? I would like for you to say that you're nervous. I just had to get it out. I'm like that on stage too. to when I have something inside, it's just sitting, I have I have I have I have to say, I have to say, I have to say, I have to say, I have, I have, I have, I have to say, I have, I have, I have, I have, I, I have, I have, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, to to to to to to to the the the to the to to to th. It's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny, it's funny there's a lot to say. Yes. Well, there's a lot, I'm because I'm good at singing about these things and talking about them for me is new. And although I've done a lot of work to own my voice, yes. This is big, a big conversation, a lot of people watching and we're not even going to sing, we're just talking so it's, I'm nervous. I'm nervous. I'm glad I'm thired. I'm thired. I'm thired. I'm thired. I'm thired. I'm that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that you thi I'm thi thi. I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm glad I'm that you that you thi. I'm that you that you that you that you that you that you that you that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm that I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm th. I'm th. I'm glad that you said it. You know why I'm glad you said it is because two things. One, I feel like a lot of people are nervous to have conversations these days. And I think a lot of us are

nervous to have conversations because these days conversations get broken down into sound bites as opposed to the conversations that they actually are. I know that that's happened to you. I know that that's happened many times. You know you you that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th. that's that's that's that's th. that's th. that's tho. that's th. th. th. th. th. th. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's th. th. th. th. that's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. I know that happens to me. Oh gosh, many times. You know, you try and give a complete thought that is as flawed and as as complicated as human beings themselves are and then someone will distill you into one part of a sentence that tries to turn you into a lightning rod for a different conversation that you're not trying to be a part of. So let's start with this. because I think I understand this correctly. Joe Rogan is not your mortal enemy, right? Goodness, no. And I don't even know him.

But my conversation, of course, has been about Spotify and his treatment of artists. Right. But because of what the media does, now has become this conversation between me and him and about me and him and I'm willing to have it because if it's here, it must be had, I suppose. But he's not, I don't have any mortal enemies. I like that. Let's talk about the music first, and then we'll talk about the georgon of it all. So, you know, you, you, you, you, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you said, you that, you that, that, you that, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that, that, that, to to to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, thi, to, to, to to, to to, to, thi, thi, thi, thi, you know, you said something that a lot of artists have been talking about with regards

to Spotify being the biggest player, but streaming in general, and how like musicians have, I mean, I don't know if tricked is the right word, but it feels like a lot of musicians have been tricked out of earning money from their music, and now the labels make money from the music. We stream the music, we think we're supporting the artist, but really what we're supporting is the label, and then you as the artists are basically making zero money unless you are, let's say, Drake or Taylor Swift. They make the bulk of the money, no matter how much people sort of listen to you as India Ari. Am I even close to understanding what's happening with musicians who aren't top of the charts? And by the way, let's also include the fact that you are an award-winning artist..... I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I, the a, the a, the a, the a, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the thi, the the thi, the the, the, the, the, the, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the th... thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, make, also include the fact that you are an award-winning artist. You've sold 10 million albums worldwide. It's not like you're a struggling artist. You are an artist.

But it feels like it's a lopsided game. Am I close to understanding the concept? You're very close. There are a few distinctions I would make. So, Spotify is not only the biggest player, but they're also the lowest payer. So songwriter and we had to come out there. And so what happens is they say, well, this is just how it is. This is just what you get paid.

But the labels and Spotify and the streaming platforms together are making those decisions. And so they're telling you, this is what we decided, this is what you get. And so- I know most music fans think, we think we listen, you get the money. We listen, you get the money because we're listening to you. That's why people don't buy albums anymore. We're still supporting you is what we think. You listen, just talking about Spotify in particular. Yeah. You listen what we get.

And that's what makes it, it has been making the professions of producer and songwriter unlivable for a lot of people. I'm blessed that I have been successful. But a lot of people are just doing that as a job that they love and walking this tight rope of, this tight rope of taking a chance that using their gifts to take care of their families are just working musicians. Right.

And a lot of people can't do it now because of the pay. The streaming is low and now the pandemic has cut touring. And so a lot of people are like, tired of even having the debate whether or not someone their their their to their their their to their to their their to their to to their to get to get to get to get their to get to get to get to get to get to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their gifts their gifts their gifts their gi gi gi gi gi gi gi gi gi gi gi their gi their gifts their gifts their gifts their gifts te, the the the the ta ta ta ta ta the the t like tired of even having the debate whether or not someone should get paid for their work. Yeah, yeah you hear a lot of artists talking about it and what I think a lot of people missed in the video of yours that went viral was you saying that you know as you say we live in a world now where I get it. I get click bait. I get that people, you know, these websites and the news organize it. They need people to come into a story.

Nuance doesn't sell. The conversation doesn't sell. Just the click of it sells. You must be sick of talking about your Rogan, I'm assuming like now because it seems like they've made it about you and him when it isn't. So forgive me for going back to this, but like, let's go back to that video and let's go back to that moment. A lot of people saw this video where Indyari came out and said, hey, here's this Joe Rogan N-Word compilation where he's saying this and and here's him telling a joke about black people being apes. And you gave what what was a really impassioned plea in and around how

you as the artist have contributed to creating the platform that this person is on, but the platform is not rewarding you, they're rewarding that person. And what people lost in the conversation was you asking or arguing more about the power you have in the platform that you're part of creating as opposed to canceling or wiping out Joe Rogan's podcast. So I would love to know, when you put that, when you put that Jorogan video out, what were you hoping would happen or what you think would happen?

I have to say that asking for my music to be pulled from Spotify in protest doesn't actually serve me. Because now, my music, if things work out the way I want, my music won't be heard on the biggest streaming platform. But I did it in protest just because I felt like my dignity was being, I felt like I was being disrespected. But I didn't think, and there's a long conversation about that, about not being heard in the industry, not being respected in the industry for not just me a lot of people, especially artists of color, especially women of color in the industry.

Right. And so I was just, I just thought, the only way to affirm my dignity and my integrity is to be to be honest about how I feel, so I asked to just take it down. I didn't expect the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, thi, th, th, th, thi, the, and the, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, thin, and to to be to me, to me, to me, toooooooooooooooooooooooooo, thr, the, thr, thi, about how I feel, so I asked to just take it down. I didn't expect anyone to listen because I'm used to this certain type of treatment from the industry where they don't listen. They don't listen to what I say in the songs. They don't listen when I say that there's mistreatment. They don't listen, I say it, but they don't listen. And so, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the to to their their their their their, I'm their, I'm their, I'm their, I the the, I'm their, I their their their to listen, I listen, I to listen, I to listen, I to listen, I to listen, I to listen, I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the the, the. I'm, thea, thea, thea, thea, the when I was sitting on my couch that day and I made a decision to just say that I wanted my music off, I certainly didn't think it was going to lead to all this. And so, but integrity is big here for me. And so being the same person I and inside as the one I act like outside,

it made me have to speak up. But also when I when I I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to say to just to say to say to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just say to just to just to just say to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just to just the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the I act like outside, it made me have to, it made me have to speak up, but also when I have invited into conversations like this that are a bit uncomfortable for me because I sing about this but I don't really talk about it much. Yeah. I'm willing to show up for it because this is what the world did with the conversation. And all I can do is do my best to express, but I certainly thought it it would be easier. Because I th th th th th th th th th th the the the the the the, okay the, okay, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their the the their the, their the, their me their me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me, their me me me me, their me, their their their their, their, their the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the, their, their their, the with the conversation. And all I can do is do my best to express, but I certainly thought it would be easier. Because I thought they would go, okay, take her off. All right, go ahead, take her off. And then I had to fight to get it off, too.

I'm still in a fight to get it off. That's really wild. It's really wild what it's the industry, the conversations that it's got us having now. So here's my opinion. I think in America, there's a really simplified conversation that people like to have because it makes people feel good about themselves or it makes them feel like things are moving forward or not. You know, so it's easy to go, good person, bad person, good guy, bad guy, then we've solved it and then it's done. And I know I know I that I that I that I that I tha tha, I tha tha tha, I tha, I tha, and I tha, I tha, and I tha, and I tha, and thi, and thi, and tha, and tha, tha, tha, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, it makes people tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha, it makes tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, tha, thakes make thakes make thakes make thakes make make make make tha, tha tha tha thi, thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi tha tha tha tha tha thi tha thi tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha tha th you've spoken on this, you know, you said, there were parts of Joroghans' apology where you were like, yeah, I appreciate that he has learned

that he shouldn't be running around saying the n-word just to prove that he's edgy. And then you also said, I also don't know that I would label him a racist. And this really struck me because I took about that on the show, you know, contrary to what clickbait will tell you, is I talked about that on the show. And I said, it is something that I struggle with. And I could see you having a similar, you know, a struggle in that conversation is, have you, and I'm only honestly asking this question

because I myself am in a world of trying to understand and get answers for myself. is a racist, do you, like, how do you feel about the whole thing right now? I think there are two things that we consider when we talk about racism, and one is conscious racism and the other is unconscious racism. And so I have learned in my life to make room and forgiveness for people who are unconsciously racist because our whole society is built on racist concepts. So if you're born into it, if you're not actively working to not be racist, then you have some of it in you. And I mean, I've had people that I love who I know love me always showed up for me, always were there for me. I had a musician dearly departed, who I could cry,

think about him now. He loved me so much. We played together for 20 years and every time we say he would just look at me with so much love and admiration. I mean, after 20 years, every time I'd sing, he just go, and he just look at me. We loved each other. But there were times when he would say racist things. And I would have to be like, hey, in the band, to to to to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to, to, to, to, to, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, thi, the thi, thi, thi, the, the, thi, thi, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, they, they, thi, thr, theea, tea, tea, thea, thea, thea, thea, thea, thi, thi,, hey, you know, in the band, my band was mostly black men and women and we would be like, hey, hey, like trying to educate him. Right, yeah.

Because he was born into a world that taught him a certain way and didn't teach him other ways. And then there's conscious racism. When you know you're doing it, and you know you're doing it, thi. And like you th, their their their their their their their their thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, hey, thi, thi, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thi. thi. thi. thi. Like, thi. thi. thi. Like, thi. Like, thi. Like, thi. Like, thi. Like, hey, hey, hey, thi. Like, like you said in your monologue, if a person keeps doing it, is that when we call them a racist? So if you know you're doing it and you keep doing it, I would say that is a racist. And so for me when I think about, I want to be nice, I was going to say this name that I'm tired of saying, but for me when I think about Joe Rodin, I think that he is being consciously racist. I mean, since the early 1900s, we've had an agreement in our society that we don't say the word or you have to suffer the consequences.

And so saying it, and then being like, what are you gonna do? Oh, sorry, I didn't mean that. Or I didn't understand there was no context under which I should say it. I don't believe that. I think he knew there was no context. I think that's why he was saying it, because it got a rise out of people. That's why he would say it.

He knew that is being racist. And I don't like even saying that because I'm a sensitive old soul and I want to believe the best in people. So when I first heard his apology, my instinct is to go, he tried. But when I go deeper and ask myself what I really think, from my commitment to truth that I've made this last year, what I really think is that he was being consciously racist,

and it makes me wonder what he talks like behind closed doors. If you have even a consciousness where you can call black people apes, that's something there. I went back and I watched like a bunch of the podcasts. And it's really interesting that you say that because I think there are two parts that I found myself breaking it into. Is like, one, when Joe Rogan started doing this thing, it's really interesting that you say that what does he talk about in private?

A lot of podcasts used to be a bunch of people talking in private. You know, the way you said you never felt hurt, I think a lot of people used to make podcasts like that. It was just this thing they do in a basement with their friends and then they talk shit and they say whatever. I will also say this as a comedian, like the shit that we talk about at comedy clubs, I don't know if it's the same with musicians or what the way, it's not that we don't say things are racist. The amount of times I've said to a comedian around the table, be like, that's racist the shit. They'd be like, ah, come on. And we fight, but we're still friends,

maybe because we have more things that connect us than more things than more things that thin. thin that that's thus thus thus thus How can we even think that way? And then we'd fight. That's right. I honestly found like what happened like with the Joe Rogan thing and what I watched was, I watched a guy where these clips are not from yesterday, these clips are from years ago. At some point Joe Rogan realized people, I thrown, thi. thi realized people thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the what thi what thi what the what the what the what the what the what th. What th. What th. What th. What the what the what the what the what their what their what their what th. their what th. their what th. th. What th. What th. What th. What th. What thu, what thu, what thu, what thuuuan, what the what the what the what the what the thean, what thean, what thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean thean theananananananananan using it. I think that counts for something, personally, you know. But I also think there's an element of, you know, when they go, what my grandmother would say of me when I was young, she'd go,

she'd say it in different ways, but essentially what you say about me sometimes is you're being a shit, you're being a little shit. You know which buttons to push because you know what it gets thi. I found generally, not just as a comedian, but as a person, oftentimes it is easy for us to engage in risky or risky topics or conversations when the danger is not in proximity to us. Do you know what I'm saying? It's funny, like, like, even on the show, I remember we used to send people out to like, to rallies, you know, like to go to Trump rallies. And all of like the black correspondents who work on the show, were like, I can't go there,

and it's not fun, you know? And then you would find like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to, like, to, like, like, like, like, like, like, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, to, the, the, to, to, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,'s say Jordan Klepe, he would go then, he would say it's the weirdest thing. He's not agreeing with these people, but they just have like a chumminess with him where it's like they can almost say whatever they want to say, you know? And there's an element of going like, ah, I look like you, so maybe you think like you, you know. And so when, it's funny that you say, th you say, that you say, that you say, that you say, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, th, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the Jorogan because I don't know. I go, it's one of those instances where you go, do you put a hand out to a person and hope that they don't like chop it off? Or do you stay safe and put your hand in your pocket and go like, no, it's just safer to label you as this human being?

And so I understand your conflict and the dilemmas that you're saying? You're trying to be a person with a soul and a spirit and you're trying to go, hey, Joe Rogan, I'm glad that you acknowledge these things because there are people who follow you who will go, okay, I guess it's not okay to say this word. I'm glad you've acknowledged that. I you accept that? And that's, I think, a conversation society is having as a whole is, what is the path to redemption for anyone? We all want to forgive. We all want people to get better. We all want to see the change. But what is that part to redemption?

I don't think we've ever did I even say that right? I think being a racist doesn't automatically make you a bad person. I never knew how to use that saying. I don't know that being a racist makes you a bad person, necessarily. It makes you a person who was raised in our society. But when does it cross over into being a bad person or being harmful? When does it cross over into a bad person or being harmful?

When does it cross over into that? And so I feel like in the intellectual circles, what I've learned is that they would say, there has to be power behind the prejudice to make it racism. You have racist thoughts that you can institute with power and that's racism. And so if you're Joe Rogan and you have this huge listening audience, by you doing that, you emboldened them to do that, and now we're in trouble as a society. Forgive me because I forget this man's name, but there's a Harvard professor that called it the atomic bomb of racial slurs.

I don't believe Joe Rogan didn't know was the atomic bomb of racial slurs. I believe he knew. And even if he was, like you said, just being a little shit, that's one conversation. But now if you have power to institute it, and you have this whole audience that is now thinking, maybe it's okay for them to do it, now we are in trouble with this atomic bomb. But also, because it counts. Sorry to cut you off on that, that, that, that, that, th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th. to, th. to, to, to, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, the, the, the, the, to, the, to, to, to, to, too, too, too, too, too.. too. too. too. too. too, too, too, to. to Sorry to cut you off on that before you move on. That's where I asked the question. Someone asked me this the other day.

It was random in the street. Someone walked up to me. And they were like, yeah, I'm glad you destroyed Joe Rogger. I was like, first of all, I don't destroy anybody. I don't cancel people. I don't slam, I don't eviscel the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the the the the the the the to the the the the the the the the the, I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooogeo tree...... we tell jokes. Most of the time I don't take things that seriously. But what I found interesting was this. I found myself talking to this person in the street,

and I said to them, where do we want to be in the world? Do we want to be in a place in the world where we say, Joe Rogan leads people, and so by him saying the endh. But then by that logic should we not then say by him acknowledging it's the wrong thing and by going that then we should also acknowledge that that's a good thing because the last thing we want to do and I'm genuinely afraid of this in societies I don't want to live in a society where we cost people out because the the like as you say the bad people are so happy for that they like theyl. T, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, their, the, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi, there was that, it's like another streaming platform or whatever it is. They offered Jorogun money, and I don't know if they would give it to him or not, but they said, come Joe, and bring all those n-word podcasts with you. Do you know what I mean?

And I was going like, do I want to live in a world where Joroggin can say, yeah, I fucked up, and yeah, I was being full of shit, and yeah, I was playing with racism, and I fucked up, and now I don't want to be a part of that. And then you go, like, his listenership is hearing this going, like, yeah, Joe, we agree with you because we follow you, thrown, thrown. conversations of criminal justice reform. I think about how many people, especially in America, you know, live in a world where they commit a crime or they live a life that has forced them into crime, right?

People will argue about forced or not forced all the time, but I don't think anybody wants to do crime, you know? People do the crime. They serve their time, they get their, whatever it may be, as just or unjust as it may be. But I find society doesn't give them an opportunity to come back, even when that's happened. And society goes, no, you are a criminal. And then I always ask people, I go, how long are you a criminal for now? Right.

You know? And so I wonder with that. Do I want Joe Rogan to now join a gang quote unquote? Or do I want to live in a world where I can be like, Joe, Joe Rogan, you've fucked up? I should be able to say that as a person. You as India can say that as a person. I think we should all be able to critique, criticize, talk shit, and still live in a world where you go, even though you're fucked up,that's how I see it too. And but I don't think we've yet seen changed enough behavior from Joe Robin to say, okay, okay, we're good now.

Because I don't think he fully understands what he did there. And so I want to tell you my DMs and my comments are wild right now. In what way? Of people just all kind of racial slurs, and misogynistic ones too, all kinds. And so that says to me that these people who want to defend Joe Rogan think that this is the right language to do it. So Joe Rogan needs to do more than go, oh yeah I'm sorry, he needs to, if you want to really leave your listeners down a new path, then leave them. To the point where they don't feel that it's the right language to come into my DMs and call me an in-word in defense of him. their thinks to to to to to to to to to thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, he thi, he thi, he thi, he thi, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's the, thi, thi, thi, the, thi, I'm thi, I'm tho, I'm tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. th. th. th. th. He, th. He, th. He, th. He, th. He, th. He, th. He, th. He, th. He, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin. thin. thoan. thoan. thin. thoan. thooo. tho. tho. tho.ach them that they shouldn't feel that way. They're not making him look good. You got to admit, it is an insane irony when you think about it.

Because I've had the same thing. I've had the same thing. No, I mean it's insane when you think about it. They literally come into your DMs, calling you to Africa slur, every, do you know what I mean? And people don't understand when they say that to me, that means I must go on a vacation. It's not exactly a sliiff. I will go back to Africa to see my family.

So, but I, but you see just an n-word, coon, this, what they throw all of the things in. All of the things. But in defense of a person who said what I did was wrong and they're going, it's not wrong. It's such a complicated ball of, but that's interesting that you say that. You feel like you would like to see Joe Rogan do a little more work in the world of tackling what he did and what it was all about? Ooh, yes I would love to see him do more work around tackling what he did and what it's all about because like I said, and as we kind of know, if you are a certain type of person in this world, if you're not doing, especially as a white person, I want to say, if you're not doing the work, to not be the work to to to to to to the work to to to the work to to thrugu. to the work to to the work to thrugu. to thro thro- to thro- thro-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-in, to-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-s, th... th. thin, thin, thin, thr. tha-s, ta-s. ta-s. ta-s. ta-s. ta-s. ta-s. ta-s. ta-s. ta-s, ta-s, t not be racist, then it's in you. So Joe Rogan is given the opportunity now to do the work and to teach other people. Like, hey, this is why. You know, if you have this show with 11 million people listen every time or whatever they're saying.

Right. Leave them. Learn for yourself and then leave them because now you're making this world a better place. And so I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. thi. the. the. thi. the. the And so I would love to see that. Also, what you said about being a comedian backstage, like, and what you said, I think before we even came on camera, I'm not sure if we were on yet, but you said, I feel like we need to have messier conversations. Yeah, I do.

I love the idea of being able to just talk about stuff, and be able to get some stuff kind and to get it to get it to get it to get it right to get it right and to be able to be messy and talk it through, I feel like that is idealistic, but it's what I would love to see because in the end, people can act like we're individuals and all that, but we really are at interconnected humanity. And so being more and more divided is not going to fix anything. Thing that fixes things is by talking. And maybe the talk won't work. But maybe it would, but just automatically being divided does not work. And so when I have these conversations on my social media, and like you said, I'm trying to be nuanced and to unpack it all. It's really hard to do with people who want you to, and people who do at you, use language as this blunt force instrument. And then they want you to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th, it it it's it's it's it's it's to to to to to to th, it's just it's just it's just to do it's just to to to to to to to to to to to thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thi. But, but thi. But, but thi. But, thi. But, thi it thi. But, thi. But, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. But, thi. But, thi, thi, thi. But it's thi. But it's thi. thi. thi. thi thi thi thi thi thi thii to to to to to to to thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th you to and people who do at you use language as this blunt force instrument.

And then they want you to do it too. Yeah, but it's just not my nature. And so I'm trying to unpack it and, but I wish that that's what we could do. Yeah. Because what is, what is canceling anybody do like we know? They'll just go somewhere else. Yeah. Well, I also say, you have these people that you can influence.

Do. Do influence them. And do more than just saying, oh, sorry. That's not enough. Thank you for joining me. And I'm really sorry for the shit storm this is created in your life. You know, I know how horrible it is to have one to not feel safe. I'll say that. You know, if I can just imagine some of your DMs based on some of mine.

I'm sorry to you for how unsafe it can make you feel as a person, as a woman, as a black woman. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, I'm sorry for the shit storm this is created in your life. And I'm grateful to you for taking the the the the the the the the ti ti ti ti to to ti to to to to to not to not to not the to tha to not to not to not to not to not to to to to to to to to to to to to to not, to not, to to to not, to not, to not, to not, to not, to not, to not, to not, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to say, to say, to say, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, th life, and I'm grateful to you for taking the time and joining me to talk about it. Because I do think... Can I please tell you something else? I have to tell you something else. Yeah. If I may. You can say whatever you like. There was one year, my life fell apart. My life fell apart. I took, my life. back in 2009 and one of my mentors gave me the homework of figuring out who my hero was.

They were like, you have to pick one. Who's your hero? And I thought it was a musician and maybe, because I went through all these musicians. It took me two weeks to figure out that for a lot of reasons, my hero was Maya Angela. And so because I am magic, I manifested being able to be with her. I went to her house in Harlem. We had this conversation, and one of the things I asked her was like, basically what do I do? How do I navigate life and be my best? Basically, we talked about other stuff, relationships and how to forgive, broken hearts

and all kind of other stuff. But the real question was, what do I do? And our wisdom keeper, I could cry. She said, just tell the truth. She said, I grew up in a time when telling the truth could get you killed because civil rights movement. Yeah. And she said, and I always told the truth. And I've been working towards being more of that person. And in 2020, like, 2020 showed me that I wasn't always

being honest with myself. Because what I wanted to be able to do was see the best in everyone. See the best in our world, believe that we can be our best. That's what my music is all about. Anybody who knows my music, that's what you hear. People know brown skin, video hair, but my catalog is full of songs about spiritual ideals and concepts is what I do.

And wanting to see the best in everything, made it so that it wasn't oftentimes seeing what things were. And this thing I keep referring to of making a decision about being honest, I read this book from a woman named Martha Beck, and she talked about it in integrity cleanse. And so it sounded right to me, because I'm having this disillusionment of like,

how I saw the world and what the world really is showing me and growing up. So I decided last summer around May that I was just going to tell the truth all the time and see what it did with my life. And of course, thinking about Maya. And that's what I've been doing. And it's hard for me to say to point point at someone and say, no, you're a racist. I don't want to be that person. But for me, it is what is true.

And this hasn't blown up my life, I wouldn't say. I would say it's given me an opportunity to further investigate how honest I can be. And the best that I can be. Because, Maya Angela is my hero because I want to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be that that to be that that that that that that that that person that person that that that that that that that that that that person that person that person that person that person that person that and the best that I can be. Because Maya Angelo is my hero because I want to be something like her someday. And the only way to get there is to be like her. And so I want to be a person who can be honest, who can have hard conversations and light ones who can sing the stuff and speak it.

And so I'm learning to see this as a scary moment, but also an opportunity for growth, because growth is, you know, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to see this as a scary moment, but also an opportunity for growth, because growth is, you know, it's always scary, really. And so, that's where I'm at. And I do, sometimes, I have been feeling a little bit unsafe, but more than anything, I'm feeling expanded. Can I say one thing to you before we go then, based on that? Here's a truth, like one of my truths is this. I think one of the biggest reasons people are so violently against calling a thing what it is or seeing a thing for what it may be or even acknowledging something

in themselves is that we haven't developed a framework in society to allow people to not be that thing. And so if you live in a world where you are a racist, a sexist, a misogist, a misoicist, a their their their their their their their their their orist, a orist, a thiiii. A th. A th. A thi. A th. A th. A thi. A th. A th. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. I thi. A th. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A th. A th. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thi. A thin. A thin. A thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thin. thee. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. A th allow people to not be that thing. And so if you live in a world where you are a racist, a sexist, a misogynist, a xenophob, whatever it may be, A, even if you are that true, you are brought up that way, you grew up in a community that, well, whatever it may be, whatever may be, does society give you the option to not be that any more, and does society give you the option the option to adopt option to adopt option to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt to adopt a to adopt a, to adopt a to adopt a to adopt a, to adopt, to adopt, to, to, the the the the the the the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, to, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the option, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the to the thoo, to thooooo, to to to to to to the thooooo, to the the the the the the the the the the the the to adopt a different label. If society doesn't do that, then people will violently refuse acknowledging any of these things because then they know that that means they're forever condemned to being kicked out of society. You know, and it's funny, I was talking to some friends back in South Africa the other day about like the harshest punishment and we talked about how like Africans used to deal with punishment. And one of the worst things that could happen to you in a South African tribe, before colonization even, was if they really felt like you could not

be reasoned with in the tribe, you would be told to leave. That was your punishment. You wouldn't be put in a cage. You would be kicked out of society, which is the complete opposite of what people do today. And it's because they knew that that was one of the greatest punishments that you could, you know, impose on another human is not let them be a part of. And so I think, honestly, until America gets to a place where it can decide, and not just America, many places in the world, but until America gets to a place where it can go, okay, you did this, you were this, but now there's a time, there's a way, there's some path that you

can that you can take towards reconciliation. Unless you do that, you will never have an honest conversation ever because people will dig in their heels and say, I cannot afford to be labeled racist in any way shape or form because that means I get kicked out of society and so I would rather deny the fact that is right in front. I would rather not tell the truth, because the truth won't set you free, it'll do the complete opposite. That's what I honestly believe. But also deny to yourself, like it's easier to fly to yourself. You know what I would love to do?

Is to have, especially some of our greatest think thinkers around race on his show to have those messy conversations. That's what I would love to see. Because I want to see, because like you said, is there a way out? And education is the way out. Not that anybody's gonna see him different because we don't know how to love each other really, but maybe it would matter.

Messy conversations, Indiary. I could talk to you forever. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you for being vulnerable with me. Thank you for sharing the space. And I hope to see you again. Thank you too. Thank you too.

All right, my friend. Bye. Bye. But before we go, please consider supporting change today, change tomorrow. They're an organization led by black women that helps black and underserved communities in Louisville with free grocery delivery programs, community garden development, food pantries, free COVID and HIV AIDS testing, and so much more. So if you want to support them in their work, please donate at the link below. Until tomorrow, stay safe out there, get your vaccine, and please stop sending NDIRE death threats. Watch the Daily Show, weeknights at 11, 10th Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes

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