The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Inside the Debate Spin Room & Retaining Hope in Bureaucracy | Guest Spotlight

Episode Date: September 15, 2024

Jordan Klepper sits with John Heilemann, chief political columnist at Puck and host of the “Impolitic” podcast, to discuss his time in the media spin room during the Trump-Harris debate, why he thinks Kamala Harris won, and whether or not the debate moved undecided voters. Also, historian and best-selling author Yuval Noah Harari chats about his latest book, “Nexus: A Brief History of Information Networks From the Stone Age to AI,” how people absorb an overflow of information, and why there’s still hope in bureaucracy. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, the weekly show. It's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting. You'll be saying to yourself, TGID. Thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election. Economics. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth, but in importance it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday?

I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome back to the Daily Show. My guest tonight is a best-selling author, chief political columnist and partner at Puck and host the Impolitic Podcast. Please welcome John Heilman. I knew there would be some Wu Tang apparel when you walked out here. Well, after you sung the praises of Wu Tang at your Chicago Convention show, you saw that. Of course I did.

You talked about how that era, 1991, 1995, four best years in American history, I agreed. I agreed. I agreed. I'm a little disappointed. They promised you that you're, I'm, they, thi why I'm here. I mean, I love you, but like, you know, I was like I wanted to get the best sub-John host. First of all, I don't consider myself a sub-John host. I am the host of the Goddam Daily Show. You will respect that. Yes.

You should understand that all of the best groups. members ODB, Jizza, Rizza, Master Killer, Inspector Deck. These are groups, plans if you will. I can't believe you, I can't believe some of the ones you'll leave it out there, like meth, who's gonna come over here and beat the shit out of you for that. But here's, here's how you know that I. And he was great. He was great. You got to listen to it in politics with John Howman. Here's the thing. So you didn't come to Philly.

No, I didn't. You know what they make in Philly? What do they make? Cheese steaks. Cheese stakes. Fame, theyste. Geno's I think? Well, we got... Now these were purchased after... They're to open 24 hours. These were purchased at the middle like about 3 a.m.

It's Pats and Ginos, right next to each other. Gino's steaks, right? Wait, you're bringing me old meat? Well, no, no. These were transported from Philadelphia as if they were severed limbs, okay? Like, on ice, very very very very very very very very very, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's to to to to to to to to toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. Philadelphia as if they were severed limbs, okay? Like on ice, very well, like just, it's really hygienic, don't worry. It's gonna be great. But yeah, cold cheese whiz, there's nothing better. There's nothing better. And this is Pat's King of Steaks. Now these places have been operating in Philadelphia for like 80 years. They're a block

away from each other and people will fight you in Philly over which one of these is better. Yeah. They're indistinguishable. If you take a, if you take one of these pieces of steak and covered in cheese, which is you're supposed to do, and onions, you can't tell the difference. You don't have to eat it now because I know how it's eating on the air is not cool, but I wanted to make sure that you had an offering. John. This is the smartest, smartest audience on television. Eat it. Let's do it. You know what? You know what?

Let's do it. You know what? We're going to fuck. I tell you what, we're going to do it. This is all going to live on the web now, because this interview has already gone 17 minutes into... Okay, so I'm going to try this. And, and as this. And, and as I, and as I, and as starting with my genos okay I'm gonna try this and as I'm trying this I want you to encapsulate as if we are eating in Philadelphia your

experience last night at the debate in Philadelphia first things first she kicked his ass Now I heard John last night talking about how, you know, this is a matter of opinion, people will claim various things. Here's the fundamental truth about campaigns. Both sides have either directly under their auspices or in super PACs. They have, they do these things called dial groups. They get undecided voters in battle ground states to watch the debate in real-time, and they've seen these things with their really, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they, and, and, and, and, thoomperk, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, their.e.e.e.s.e.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s.s, th.s, th.s, th.s, th.s, th..... th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thee. thee. th. thee. th. ided voters in battleground states to watch the debate in real time and they say you've seen these things what they really crank the dial do they approve they disapprove and they that's how they're they're that?

That's all they're looking at is what the dials are showing them. Later they will look at polling but on that night. Internally they're gettingtwo things. Did our candidate perform well with the dial groups and the dial groups are meant to be representative of groups they're trying to reach and and bring over onto their side and they will know what worked what are the things that worked best? By the end of the night if you know at the end of the night if you know someone at athe end of the night what the dial, what the group said, what the dial said basically is what they'll say. Yeah. And I would say this is a rare moment where the Harris campaign and the Trump campaign were in agreement. But the dial said that she kicked his ass. Really? And the Trump was aware of that. Because I don't know if you saw, Donald Trump trun. I thrown. I think one th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. their their their their their their their their their their they' is they'll their their their their their their their their their their they's is their their their their their their their their their their their is their is their is their is their is their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. te. try. try. try. try. try. try. te. try. their their their their their their their their. th. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. He had numbers. I thought that was the funniest part when he came into the spin room because like Trump

is full of shit most of the time and he makes up all kinds of things but that was one of those things. It was the most made up thing on earth and of course like the story about how El Britain and America wanted Robu-Away to go away, which will come th........... th, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to.. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. to. to. th. to. to. th. th. th. to. th. th. th. to. to. to. th. to put up their numbers. You know, CNN was broadcasted their numbers and half an hour later and showing that in fact all their Instipoles also showed that Harris had won. And I'll tell you the other thing is that what she did best on on were all the abortion related questions. All the stuff about women's reproductive rights. Those stretch, she had in the debate and she got very emotional, very direct, very powerful.

They, those, the dial groups loved that off, that was off the charts even in the, I mean, in the drug, these are all undecided voters. So they're essentially different groups that the campaigns are monitoring, but they're all, there are no Trump fans in these groups. And there's no Harris fans. These are, you are, insane people who, I can't wrap my head around. But these other side, I mean, there was some poll that around 30% of people wanted to know more from Kamala Harris. What did people actually learn about Kamala Harris? Well, I'll tell you what, I think,

there's two ways to look at that. You know, when you think about this from the New York Times Sienna poll. Basically said, there was a lot of people who still don't feel like they know very much about her, and they wanted to know more. That was one thing that you could have try to aim to do, tell your story more, try to explain some of your changes on positions, all that sphere of battle, and for a candidate who's in their first general election presidential debate, Bill Clinton and others would say, Americans are watching to see whether they can imagine

this person as the commander-in-chief. As president of the United States, can they go to to to tow with an adversary in the moment? Do they they the their their their their. Do the the the the the the, do the the, do the the, do the the, do the the, do toe, do toe, do toe, do. Do toe, do, do, do toe, do, do, do, do, do, do is, do, to, toe, the, the, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, who, the, who, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, and, is, and, and, is, to, to, and, is, to, to, is, and, to, and, is, to, to, and, is, their, their, is, is, is, is, is, is, is an adversary in the moment. Do they command the debate? Is the image of command left in people? So it's a plausibility test. And I just think there's no one with eyes in their head who didn't think that Kamla Harris was the one who commanded the stage last night. And that's why between the dial groups and just a plain obvious thing that Trump as maniacal, irrational, mentally, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually failing as he is at this moment.

She was, you know, was she perfect? No, but she was strong, right? And I think that she came across as strong, and she decided to play that prosecutor role and she played it really well. She was incredibly, you said, well prepared. And she kept coming back to her themes that she wanted to hit. And I just, I just, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I th, I, I th, I, I th, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I th, I to, I to, I, I to, I, I to, I, I to, I, I, I to, I to, I, I to, I, I th, I th, I incredibly, you said, well, incredibly well prepared. And she kept coming back to her themes that she wanted to hit. Yeah. And I just, I mean, I can't as a debate, quad debate, which is not how are people going to vote. Eight weeks from now is what the election day is. Yeah. These people are still undecided. Most of the, the, people are still undeci, they people are th. Most people are not th. Most people are not th. Most people are not th. Most people are not thi. thi. thi. thi. their people are not, thi. their people are not, thi. their people are not, their people are not their their their thi. their their their people. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their, I I I, I, I, I, I their. I, I. I, I, I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I can. I. I can. I. I can't, I'm th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. theeeeeeeem. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I theee. I th. in in off camera I think to these fine people out here you know she you're dealing with a

lunatic you're dealing with a pathologically lying insurrection fomenting democracy degrading defiling a asshole and and so and so Allegedly. So you're, so it's a tough, like imagine how, like what that, you know, I have a challenge involved in doing that and holding your composure and I'll say, you know, because no one did this better than John did on the night of the first debate. I get it, you like John Stewart. Well, he did look, you, he's like you're a comedy hero. I like John Stewart. Well, he did look you I he's like you're a comedy hero. I like John Stewart as well okay yes. But he put up

those pictures of Biden slack-jawed. It was a four box and he's like when they did the debate prep did nobody show him these pictures because these don't look great. She was so aware of the split screen and how the split screen would work that I feel like it was like a bizarre world world world world world world world world world the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the the. the. the. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I was. th. I was. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the the the the t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. screen and how the split screen would work that I feel like it was like a bizarre world Biden debate a lot of ways last night right because Trump the split screen that that with with that with Harris was doing to trum. What the split screen with Biden did to Biden right Biden suffered in that split screen with Trump and Trump suffers in that split screen with her he looked angry almost throughout. He did without the sound on. I don't I th and I th th th th th th and I th th th th th th th th th th th th. I don't I don't th. I don't th. I don't th. I don't th. I don't th. I don't th. I don't th. I thi thi thi thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th her. He looked angry almost throughout. He did without the sound on. I don't disagree and I do think I think Kamala looked more than a depth. She did look presidential. I think

she was was masterful in many ways of both seeming above the fray but also poking him as well. Yes. But this audience is different. I think people don't see Donald Trump. I don't believe people saw that and saw Donald Trump for the first time as a diminished man. No. He looked angry, but angrier has been something that he's been selling the American public and there's that 45% who love that. Do you actually think that that diminished- I don't think you're going to take away Trump voters from Trump. I think what she's trying to get across, I think, now is that he is not just the old candidate in the race now. The generational contrast.

She wants to be changed. She wants to be younger. And she is, in some ways, implicitly, pushing like, the argument that took down Biden, which is that Donald Trump's mental acuity, I say this not in a just a trashing him kind of way, which I'm happy to do sometimes. But I think about a minute and a half ago. But he just, but he's, he's getting worse. I mean, he's never been wholly linear. Let's put it that way, right? But, but if you go back to 2016 when he really won the election against Clinton,

in those last 10 or 12 days of the election, they managed to get him to talk talk to talk to talk to talk to talk to talk him to talk about trade, the border wall, China, and he was actually a pretty disciplined candidate for the crucial 10 or 12 days of the election. Now there are a lot of Republicans who look at, well, she has this momentum. What's going to change between now an election day that will halt her momentum. One thing is like some external event, you know, Vladimir Putin does something, does something, some kind of cyber war, a Russian, a Martian invasion, you know, that someone has to repel on the White House lawn. Another is Harris f*** up. You know, she messes up somehow. She didn't do that last night, right?

We will all agree about that. And the third thing which Republicans all are hoping for and praying for, and they've been trying to beg to do it is be their, their, their, their, their, their, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, and what what what what what what what what what what what what what what, and what they what they what they they they they've they've, and what they've they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're, and what they're, and what they're, and what they're, and what they're, and what they're, and what they're, and what they're, and what they're, and what, and what, and what they're th........... And what, and what, and what what, and what what what, and what what they, and what they're they a disciplined, focused, rigorous, consistent candidate. Make these arguments. That's what we're begging him to do it with this idea in mind that he can pull it together in these last eight weeks and become this thing that occasionally he was in the past. I just think if you watch that debate last night, there's none of that there. When he started talking about the dogs and cats and the pets being killed, do you know how that question started? I don't remember. It started with David Mue were asking about immigration. Was it, yeah? Now in the Biden debate,

rightly, Biden got a question about abortion, his strength, and turned it into an immigration, and that's when you knew he'd really lost it. You're like, what are you doing? You're talking about immigration. They set you up. They put it on the tea, abortion, talk about Rovey Wade. Last night, Trump got asked about immigration. His issue he wants to talk about. That's a sweet spot. But Harris had baited him on the size of his crowds again, and then the apparent, obviously completely made up Holocaust of the cats, dogs, and pets in Ohio. Bear in mind that in the last hundred years and occupants of the White

House, every single one of them has had a pet, except for Donald Trump, because he's a sociopath. Maybe he doesn't like to snack at night. He doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, The guy cares less about about dogs the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. He's, th. He's, th. He's, th. He's is is. He's is. He's is. He's is. He's th. He's to. tooo. toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea. Hea snack at night. He doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't, the guy cares less about dogs and cats than any occupant of the White House ever. And that includes like other bona fide sociopaths. Well, it is such an example too. You give Donald Trump enough time. He's not prepped for anything. He's always grasping at straws.

And frankly, he's only got a couple things, he's going to bang that drum and whatever he read on the internet that day. And that's what you see getting ample. He brings the internet to life. And you saw Laura, you saw when he arrived in Philly, Laura Lumer, who's like literally the craziest person on the right. Crazier than anybody in the history of the right. That's a hell of a crown to where. I I I. I. When. When. When. When. When. When. When. When. When. When, when, when, when, when, he. W, he. He, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he's, he's, he's, he's, he, he, he, he's he, he's he, he's he, he's. He's. He, he's. He, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he he he. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He. He's, he's, he's, he's he. He's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he. He brings. He brings. He brings. He brings. He heto be talking about the cat carnage in the non-existent cat carnage in Ohio. And I will say this again to the question of can he be a discipline candidate.

What's the other thing he was supposed to do last night? Tie Kamala Harris to Joe Biden's economic record. The first time he mentioned it was to say,. And the way he mentioned it was to say, she is Joe Biden. She is Joe Biden. And again, it's back to the split screen. Callarer's like, I don't really think I'm Joe Biden? No? I mean, can people see that I'm not Joe Biden?

He did it. He finally decided to do what he did so badly that she could just like to knock it away with a laugh line. Well, she got to ask that question right off the bat, and she said, I'm gonna talk about my history. Yeah, that's totally. And you heard Jady Vance afterwards in the spin room where I was talking about how, you know, Trump made these points in his closing statement. I'm like, ha ha, now that's a strong candidate. I guess my question, do people around him, one, do they really have an expectation of changing Donald Trump in that way? And two, do they have a sense of what truly is happening?

Like, I hear the moment where Donald Trump comes out and he has those bullshit numbers. And of course he's always pulling out numbers that make the most sense to him. But are they giving him numbers that make him comfortable in that moment? What is their awareness? The Trump circle, what is their awareness of what is happening? It's not a monolith, right? You know, Trump has now brought Corey Lewandowski back into the fold. Corey Lundowski is the ultimate, Let Trump be Trump can't.

Corny was exiled. Now he's back. His job is to do things that make Trump happy so that he will not be exiled again. The professionals in that group, people like Chris Laszavita, the campaign manager, and Susie Wiles, the co-campaign manager, you would say whatever you want about them and their values or whatever in working for Trump, but they're professional people who've run important campaigns before, and they are the ones begging Donald Trump to please talk about how she's a San Francisco liberal. Talk about how she's a flip-flopper. Talk about how she's a phony. Talk about, try to make her explain how she went from being in favor

of all these liberal positions to being against them. And they are, I think, constantly, must live in hope, because if they don't live in the hope that they can't to try and tha. the world to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to be the Donald Trump you're going to get for the next 55 days before election day. Because that's a Donald Trump, I'm not saying you can't win Jordan because it's going to be really, really close. But man, I think every Republican strategist in the country looks and says if this guy ran a standard Republican campaign against her, there's a playbook and he would appreciate his odds of winning if he were to be able to remotely execute that. And we have no sign that he can.

There's this also the thing you were talking about this a little bit before, you know, you know, I've been in a lot of spin rooms in my life, you know. And yeah, and yeah. And I'm very impressed. Pretty cool room to be in. Yeah, you get to hang out and then yeah. You get to be with the mooch. Here's the thing about this. People go, oh, are you in there? Somebody wrote to me last night, a friend who said, were you in the room where it happens?

I'm like, no, the press is never in the room where it happens. We don't sit in a room next to to our face. But that, but, don't you think there's something? And I never miss it. I never miss it. But it feels like we talked about this in the beginning of our show. It feels like Trump thinks that is the room where it happens. Well, he doesn't, he doesn't prep for a debate to articulate a vision and bullshit the press with more cameras. That's where all his energy goes. You got the show.

Totally. People shouldn't be performing for you. That's a nightmare. 100% percent. Trump should be performing for the people at home. But he doesn't see it that way. You know, I think it's that way. You know, I think I may have told you the story for a little while in 2015, to, to, to, to, to, to, these people haven't heard. Trump liked me for a little while. He liked you, is that right? I wrote a tweet about him when he first entered the race in 2015.

I said, you know, the Republican Party is getting more racist, nationalist and xenophobic. I think Donald Trump has a chance to win. And I saw him, I had a face-to-face interview with him the next him, and I said, you know, I thought you might be pissed. And he was like, no. At that moment, it was, there were people who didn't think he could win and people who thought he could win. Binary. And if you were on the side of people who took him seriously, he didn't care. And he didn't care.

And if you were on the side He didn't like the people who were saying he has no chance. He's a buffoon. He's doing this as a branding exercise. I was on the other side. And for a little while, whenever I would see him, he would say, Heilman, you're starting to understand me. We're both German. And that always, I'm not like, I'm German descent but I'm not like I didn't like grow up in in in Munich you know or you know this's not my but he saw something yes it was very like it was always like a lot of like he's always like you know yeah like yeah I just you know starting to come around on true the hair cut you the meaner the meaner I was the more you like the mea the meer I was the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the eehaw. Well, that's a, there you go. That's a step up, right? That's a step up, right?

That's a step up. I'll tell you what you can see in the spinner room last night, though, is that it's not hard to know the things that you find out from your sources about how the dial groups went. Yeah. I posted a tweet last night. I think a picture as I was walking out of Matt Gates, what's his name? Stephen Miller? Stephen Miller. Mm-hmm. Matt Gates, Stephen Miller, and this skinned, and this skinned, and this is the skin,

and their skinned, and their skinn. their skinned, and they would carry a little sign that would say, Klepper on it. Lovely. Or if they wanted to get some attention, it would say, Stuart. Okay, they got, damn, wait. And that wax there. It's a hard wax. It's a hard. It's a hard. Can I, have you been, have you been skimping on the gym sessions lately?

This is, I'm waiting till after the election, you know, uh, this is, this will be good later. Yeah. But this picture Now I'm not gonna be here. Yeah, I was gonna say look at this look at this. It's tough Is there no one around here the Bourbon's much easier. Is there no one around here who can help us here? That that's that's that's really what wax on. It's it's like meagi wax on. Stay focused. All right. I'm trying. I'm trying. I to. I to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm to. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm this. I'm this. I'm this. I'm this. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This. This is. This is. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's. That's that's that's this. This is. This is. That's that's this. That's that's this. That's this. That off. Stay focused. All right. I'm trying. I'm trying. I gotta wrap this up. This ain't a f-pott gaits. Gates. Gates. Gates. Gates Miller and this little skinny kid. Yeah. Right. They look so sad. And you know I saw the various response tweets people would say, you know, an in-sell, a neo-nazi and a pedophile walk into a bar. That's the way a lot of great jokes start. And Matt Gates was wearing these white, like, sketchers with like black jogging pants as

his suit bottoms and then a suit jacket on top. I mean, he looked like he was ready for Delpoca Vista, basically at his age. I mean, honestly, I think that's a step forward. If he's trying to appeal to the older folks, I think, you know, I th th th th th th th, I'll th, I'll th, I'll th. th. I'll tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, theeeeeeaa.a.a.a. And, that's, that's, theeeeaaa.a. And, thii. thi, forward if he's trying to appeal to the older folks I think you know I'll take it with med gates. But I'll tell you when I looked at that I was thinking about you know what I what I had thought is I heard about the dial groups from the insiders of the campaign I thought you know David Pluff. David Binder the focus group. the focus. I'm their the the focus. T. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. I. I was. I'm. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. the focus. I'm. the focus. I'm. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I was. I. I. I. I know, they're like, they like try to keep, but they were metaphorically popping champagne corks last night at how well their hand and it did. In the Trump world, they were popping like either like Malox or Clodipin, I don't know which, but they were, they were not, they were, and when those guys showed up and I looked at them, I was like, those guys are either either either, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they're, they, they, they, they, they, they, and, and, and, and, they, and, they, and, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, theyged up. Or someone killed their pets. They lost their, they look like a bunch of guys who had their cats and dogs.

Like taken out by some imaginary Haitians in Ohio. Yeah, take it from the Sad Man and the Skechers. I think that's how the debate went. Be sure to check out John's column at Puck and its podcast, and Politics. We've got it on that. Hey, everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show, it's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting, you'll be saying to yourself, TGID, thank God, it's Thursday. Thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about.

All the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsessed me. The election. Economics. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth, but in importance, it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to The Daily Show. My guest tonight is an historian and a New York Times best-selling author

whose latest book is called Nexus, a brief history of information networks from the Stone Age to AI. Please welcome Yuval Noah Harare. You're all Noah Harare. You are a popular writer. Your books have sold over 45 million copies. Whoa. You are a popular writer. Your books have sold over 45 million copies.

Whoa. Whoa. Uh, the Atlantic referred to some of your writing. have sold over 45 million copies. Whoa! The Atlantic referred to some of your writing style as, since the dawn of time, style books. You go way back and you bring us into the future. These are big, important tombs. Simultaneously, I heard you meditate for two hours every single day. Yes. How the fuck you make all this happen? I don't have for two hours every single day. Yes.

How the fuck do you make all this happen? I don't have kids. You don't have kids. What have I done? Why don't you write a pamphlet that says just that? You want to get shit done, don't have kids? Some people manage to do both, but you know. But you have time to dive into this.

Yeah. I'm curious, this book is about information. Yeah. And you reject the notion that more information is a good thing, that it leads to truth and wisdom. Is this you being jaded by the Trump administration in the time we're in, or does this thought process go back? Yeah, it's basically like thinking that more food is always good for you. You know, there is a limit to how much food the body needs, and in a similar way, there

is a limit to how much food for the mind, the mind needs, which is information. And the same way that most, there is so much junk food out there, there is also so much junk information out there. And we basically need to go on an information diet. Yes. This. But I need my sweet, sweet Twitter snacks, Yvall. I need it. I need it. It's exactly that. The same way that over the last few generations, they learned, the industries learned how

to produce artificial food, which is pumped full of fat and sugar and salt and is addictive and not good for us. They've also learned how to manufacture this artificial information, which is pumped full of greed and hate and fear and is addictive to our mind and isn't good for it. Now, I totally agree, and I feel stuffed on all of it. But I also have this feeling that when you step outside of this information mainstream, that's just that this pipeline of BS that is out there, that you suddenly step out of the conversation. It feels like we don't have the luxury the the the just that this pipeline of of BS that is out there that you suddenly step out of the conversation. It feels like we don't

have the luxury of going on a diet if you want to be part of the conversation around us. Because the conversation is increasingly managed not by human beings but by algorithms and algorithms function in a completely different way than us. They are not organic. For instance, human beings, as organic animals, we run by cycles. Sometimes we need to be very active, sometimes we need to rest. But algorithms never rest. They are tireless, and they expect us to be the same. So we now live in this new cycle, which never rests.

And the same thing happens in politics, in finance. You know, previously, if you think about Wall Street, so even Wall Street takes rests. The market is open from Mondays to Fridays, 9.30 in the morning to 4 o'clock in the afternoon. That's it. If a new war erupt in the Middle East, an unlikely event, but let's say a new war erupt in the Middle East, on Friday at five minutes past four, Wall Street will react only on Monday morning. It is on weekend vacation. And this is actually a good thing, because if you force organic entities to be on all the time, they eventually collapse and die, which is

really what is happening to us as individuals and as societies. I think maybe the most misunderstood and abused word in the English language today is the word excited. People think that excited means happy. Like I meet you and I say, I'm so excited to meet you. That's what happened with us backstage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But excited doesn't mean happy. Excited means that all your nervous system and your brain is like fuzzing, it's on.

And it's good to be excited sometime, but if you keep an organic being, an animal excited all the time, it eventually collapses and dies. So you're saying beforehand I should have said, you all- I'm so relaxed to meet you. I'm relaxed to meet you. I apologize I'm dead inside, but that's not your problem. Well, think, for instance, about the election cycles and US politics. Wouldn't it be better if it was a bit more boring?

I would love it if it were boring. I would love it if it were boring and we see what happens in Europe where it's shorter, it's boring, but everything is pulling us to maximize. The idea, the fact that if we had a new cycle that could end on Friday and then we pick it back up on Monday would be fantastic. But it doesn't seem like the algorithms, it doesn't seem like the financial benefits are pushing us in that direction at all. Where do you see a path like that going through?

I guess if you keep kind of increasing the pace all the time, we can't handle it. So the algorithms the algorithms the algorithms the algorithms the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin.eee. woee.e.e. And, thin. And, thin, thin, the pace all the time, we can't handle it. So the algorithms can, so they take over, but it's not good news for humanity. We need to slow down, basically. And we are facing now these non-organic entities which work and think in a completely different way from us. And the question is who is going to adapt to whom? Now, you're pointing at AI. Yeah.

Now, is AI? Do you see it as an existential threat? Like, I've seen some of these shrimp Jesuses, and I don't like it. These weird images that pop up online, but I don't necessarily connect that with the end of conversation. Hmm. I think the most important thing to understand about AI is that AI is not a tool. It is an agent. It's the first technology in history that can make decisions and invent new ideas by itself.

Even something as powerful as the atom bomb could not decide anything by itself. All the decisions were made by humans. Now we've created something which potentially can take power away from us. At present, it starts with very small things. Like, for instance, there was an experiment when Open AI developed GP4, like two years ago, they want to test what can this thing do. So they gave it a task to solve capture puzzles. The capture puzzles like when you go online and you want to access your bank or whatever and

they have this riddle that you have to solve, an image that you have to say what are the twisted words and in letters to make sure you are not a robot. Yeah, it's tough. I've taken the test. It's tough. Is that a street light? Is that a bicycle wheel? I don't know. Let me do it again, refresh. And it's really difficult for GPT4.

GPT4 could not solve the CAPTCHA. But what GPT4 did, it accessed which is an online site where you can hire humans to do different things for you. And it asked a human to solve the capture for it. Now, the human got suspicious. The human asked, why do you need somebody to solve capture for you? Are you a robot? It asked directly, are you a robot? And GPT4 answered, no.

I'm not a robot. I have a vision impairment, which is why I can't solve the cup job, so I need your help. So the fully, so the truly evolved human is not somebody who's smarter. It's just somebody who gets somebody else to do the work for them. Smart? Yeah. Scary. Very scary. It's curious. You talk a little bit about, there's a portion here to talk about the artist's role. In the community of whether it's comedy or writers or filmmakers, people talk about is AI

coming for our jobs. Part of what you articulate right here is that it's an artist's job to sort of paint these fears. Let us understand the dynamics of human interaction. You break things down into what these social networks need. I'm paraphrasing, but like both stories of mythology that lift us up, and also articulations of the bureaucracy. It's very important. It's very important, which I think is, explain that to me a little bit,

but I also feel it's very difficult also for artists to articulate bureaucracy. That's the problem. We are very good at articulating mythology. We love mythological stories. And mythology is very important. But ultimately, our world, the modern world, is built on bureaucracies. And this is also where AI fits into the picture, because we are now going to see millions and millions of AI bureaucrats.

The kind of existential threat we are facing is not this Hollywood scenario of a single computer trying to take over the world. It's millions of AI bureaucrats in the banks, in the governments, in the armies, in the schools, making decisions about us. Like you apply to a bank to get a loan, and it's an AI bureaucrat deciding whether to give you a loan or not. You apply for the job, for a place in college, it's the same thing.

Now, the thing with bureaucracy, it's boring. It's boring. It's very difficult for artists to write good stories about bureaucracies. But if the function of art is help us understand reality, this is much more important than telling mythological stories. And you know, when was the last time you saw a really good TV show about bureaucracy? Let's say about the budget. Like, how was the budget? I'm bingeing a 12-part series on the budget right now that is, well, I think about it.

I think of like movies like The Big Short. But for every The Big Short, you have a thousand Marvel movies that live in the world of mythology. Yeah, so superheroes, this is mythology. This is not how the budget works. You don't have a super accountant fighting against, I don't know what. Yeah, let's, we can workshop this, yeah, yeah. But, you know, what shapes your life is these accountants with the budgets far more than the superheroes.

And it's really a challenge to do a good TV series about the budget. And even if we try, it will end up again like a love story between somebody in accounts and somebody in another department and the budget will be pushed to the side. But we need to really understand how these things work. I think what I love about a lot of your work is it does explore the stories that we tell, and how important that is to just humankind and the way that we create societies and build off one another's and the danger of not telling those stories or not bringing people in together. I think what I when I fear about our future and

our democracies and their ability to hold these conversations I think about things like AI but I also very much think about these mediums that our conversations are taking place in, whether it's on Twitter or cable news or Tick-Tock, like none of these mediums are pointing towards or value any type of conversation that is helpful in a way that is beneficial. And so I'm afraid of the AI in the way that we're tracking, but I just don't see a platform or a place where the conversations that need to happen can happen. I think th number one question to ask to the Zuckerbergs and the Elon Musk of the world

and so forth. Do you have their number? I'd text them right now. So if you have the number, this is the question. How is it that we have the most sophisticated information technology in history and we can no longer hold the conversation. We can no longer talk with each other. That's the big question. And you see it in democracies all over the world. You see it here in the US. You see it in my

home country in Israel, you see it in Brazil, in the Philippines, in France, the conversation is breaking down. So what is happening? This extremely sophisticated information technology, it is not helping the conversation. It is destroying it. Yeah, 100%. I talked to older people on the road who go to, like people at rallies, at Mahaga rallies who will go to Facebook as a place to converse with friends. And frankly, if you're in your 60s, that's the place to talk to friends, to connect.

But in order to be a person on Facebook, it's not enough for you just to converse with the friends you have there. You have to publish news sources to get people to pay people the people their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the get people to pay attention to you. And I feel like the Zuckerbergs and the Facebooks and these media sites that we have right now, we promise this idea of conversation or that you can connect with friends, but we ask people to be publishers of ideas and promoters of things that are outside the realm of what makes a healthy conversation and more so muddy up the ability to have that honest conversation. Traditionally, and we've been in this place place, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to have that honest conversation. Traditionally, and we've been in this place, every time a new information technology was invented, we faced the same difficulties.

For instance, when the printing revolution, swept Europe in the early modern period, it did not lead directly, as many people think, to the scientific revolution. The best sellers of the early print era were not Copernicus and Galileo Galilei and Newton. Howdly anybody read those books? The big bestsellers were religious tracts and were witch hunting manuals. The big witch hunts, they were not a medieval phenomena. Medieval people didn't care very much about witches. The really big witch hunts, they began after the print revolution. One of the biggest bestsellers was a book called The Hammer of the Witches,

which was a do-it-yourself manual to identifying and killing witches. The Hammer of the Witches. And it was full of these stories about cannibalistic orgies and gatherings of the witches. The hammer of the witches. And it was full of these stories about cannibalistic orgies and gatherings of... And this was far more interesting than Cupernicus with all its mathematics. I gotta say I'm writing it on Hammer of the Witches, it sounds good. Hammer of the Witch is also my favorite Led Zeppelin album. For instance, if you want to really understand like Q Annon today, it's basically the same story. There is a conspiracy of Satan worshipping witches that is trying to destroy the world, and

good Christians need the ability to identify and destroy these witches. It's not a new thing on Facebook or Twitter. It goes back to the print revolution in the 15th and 16th century. Are there any examples looking back at history though where we face these technological watershed moments where we are given new technology and that humanity has decided to revert and and say no to it and move beyond it? It feels like a foregone conclusion that we are heading into this AI revolution and we're not writing the rules,

a couple rich folks in Silicon Valley are. You can't go back in history, that's impossible. But the answer is always the same. You need institutions. You know, institutions, they are not heroic. They are not superheroes. They are not kind of the main theme of Marvel movies, but there are always people reach the conclusion they are the answer.

Because if you want to, you know, in the ocean of fake and junk information, if you want to know the truth, you need institutions like newspapers, like academic associations, like courts that develop mechanisms to sift through the evidence and decide. like academic associations, like courts, that develop mechanisms to sift through the evidence and decide what is reliable information and what is unreliable. Again, it's not heroic, but this is always the answer, and we need to do it again with the current information revolution. So as long as newspapers stay strong as a business model, perhaps VHS machines can

get in there too and fight the good fight, you know, you actually, you signed a book for me backstage and one of the comments you made within it was to not lose hope. Help me. Help me do that. Where do you see those little glimmers of hope when you look at this uncertain and perhaps scary future that we're walking into? You know, I think that AI is nowhere near its full potential.

But humans also, we are nowhere near our full potential. If we, if for every dollar and every minute that we invest in developing out of the But humans also, we are nowhere near our fuel potential. If we, if for every dollar and every minute that we invest in developing artificial intelligence, we also invest in exploring and developing our own minds, we will be okay. But if we put all our bets on the technology, on the AIs and neglect to develop ourselves, this is very bad news for humanity. All right, so I'm going to get that gym membership and I'm going to cut out the AIs and neglect to develop ourselves, this is very bad news for humanity. All right, so I'm going to get that gym membership and I'm going to cut out the suites. Nexus is available now. Yvall, Noah Harara.

Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch the Daily Show week nights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Paramount Plus PODCAS. Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast the weekly show. It's going to be coming out every Thursday. So exciting, you'll be saying to yourself, TGID, thank God it's Thursday. We're going to be talking about all the things that hopefully obsess you in the same way that they obsess me. The election. Economics. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. And I know that I listed that fourth, but

in importance it's probably second. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday? I mean, talk about innovative. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast.