The Daily Show: Ears Edition - John Oliver On Finding a Place for Satire | Vashti Harrison On Her Book “Big”

Episode Date: November 26, 2023

Ronny Chieng guest hosts and sits with former Daily Show correspondent John Oliver who discussed the difficulty of doing comedy in America as an immigrant and remembers the time he offered Ronny words of advice as he began his correspondent career. Next, guest host Dulcé Sloan sits with author and illustrator Vashti Harrison to chat about the personal experiences that led her to writing and illustrating the picture book “Big” and the reason Dulcé Sloan believes there needs to be an “adult” version of the book.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

John Stewart here, unbelievably exciting news. My new podcast, The Weekly Show, we're gonna be talking about the election, economics, ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. You're listening the Daily Show. He's done nothing since then.

Please welcome Mr. John Oliver. Oh my God. Hello. Hello. Good evening, yes. All right. All right. We get it.

Enough. I agree with you more than I agree with them. All right, all right, we get it, enough already, enough. I agree with you more than I agree with them. Well, well, well, look who's come crawling back. Yes. Where it all started? I know. It's pretty weird to be back. I do not like being in that guest room at all. Oh, really? That was the one room where I worked here you were not allowed to go in,

and I don't like being in it now. It to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the one room where I worked here, you were not allowed to go in, and I don't like being in it now. It feels like I'm doing something wrong by being inside it. You never snuck in to see a guest one time? No, no, no, no, no. No. And we were never allowed to be in there, because it had to be kept nice for the guest. And it never really occurred to me one day I might thi. tho. tho. tho. th. th. to. to. to. to. th. th. th. to. th. thin. to. to. thin. to. thin. to be. to be. to be. to to to tho. to to thi. thi. thi. to me. to me. to me. to me. to me. to me. to me me me. to me. to me. to me. to to to to me. to me. to me. to me. to me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. to me. Yeah. to me. Yeah. to. to. to. to. to. to. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin. t the t t t t toda. try. toda. toda. try. toda. to. to. to. to. to. the the the corridor for the rest. I don't want to be in there at all. Yeah, but this place brings us to my memories. You were here, you are in this building. I was very much in this building.

Yeah, the heritage. I was the reason I came to America. And I was here for eight years. Yeah, same. Yeah. That's why I was so happy you came on because we people don't know by looking at us, but we actually have very similar backgrounds because we both joined the show. I moved to America to do the show just like you. And when I first joined the show, you know, the Daily Show alumni network is so strong.

I asked to meet up with Mr. Oliver. Yeah, and I thought this. Mr. Oliver. And he was Mr. Oliver. I was like, there's no, the. I was, the. I was, their. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There's. There's. There's. There's. There's. There's. There's. There's. There's. There's. There's. The. The. The. The. The. The. There. There. There's. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. The. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. There. I. I. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was, the. I was. I was. I was. I was. There. I was Mr. Oliver, I was like, there's no way this guy's going to let me meet up with him. And you were like, no, come before work. There's nothing I like more than talking to people who have questions about how to make field pieces. Because it's the, or it's that it's such a narrow set of skills. Yes. And all of you had all of your questions were great. I remember you leaving and thinking, oh, you're going to be fine. Even though you don't have the answers yet, all your questions are right, so you're going to be fine. You do not have a problem. Oh, that's it. I will say, before we make it too sincere, you do have that unique skill set of not minding

being a dick to people. And that really, at the end, that is that is the I mean, you know, you have to really not care to do satires sometimes. Yes. And everyone's like, people, I don't think people know how much you don't give a fuck. Yes. Like you truly don't give a fuck. You will go hard. In the marrow of my bones, sometimes when our lawyers say they're going to be upset, you go, I'm not having bit, there's a tingle of happiness. Yeah, but that's what kind of what you need to do.

Yeah, it's definitely. Yeah, you like the feeling, I like the feeling of being in real trouble. Yeah, you did, yeah. In comedy, because I'm probably a You said you just put button, you just got to push it because I mean you know and what was interesting was when I met with you this is how much you don't give a fuck you made me come to your office at 8 a.m. first of all which is which is extremely early for comedians. Yeah. I mean wake up. That is the amazing thing about doing jobs like thee when. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. th. th. th. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It. It. Yeah. It. It. It's. Yeah. It's. It. It's. It's. It's. I. I...................................................................................................... th. th. th. th. th. jobs like this. When you get into comedy, it's not generally thinking that you will see a human beings breakfast time. No. But yeah, that's right. You came very early.

You looked bright and early. You'd showed. I had no complaints. Yeah. And I came and I talked to you. And I have very specific questions. but like when you told me it took you two years to relearn how to do comedy in America. I think that's probably true. You are spot on to the day by the way. I was in hindsight, I was like, oh my god, because I remember there was a day, I was in New York City

gigging at some comedy and it was two years in literally almost to the day. And I remember things thin thi little bit of like relearning how to do comedy. Because again, you like me, we were doing comedy outside of America before we came here. Yeah, and so I think the outsider perspective in comedy always works. The thing with being an immigrant here is you kind of have to learn the exact ways that your outside of perspective can translate. So you kind of have to learn basically how that can work. And once it does, you're fine. But until that point, it does feel a little bit like uncharted waters. Yeah, it's a bit like, you know, you can come here and you can joke about America on a very

surface level. And you can, you can, and that will do well for you for, you know, if you have a 15-minute set, maybe 30 minutes set. But I feel like after nine months or a year in America, the audience can kind of smell the bullshit of like, of like, you've been here long enough. Yes. Right. Like guns shouldn't be weird to you. That's right. So really what when the, the, the, the, the, the, profound your two year thing was like it takes two years to learn the nuances of America so you can make fun of them in ways which... Yes, exactly. They appreciate. Exactly. Like don't tell us we have guns, we know we have guns. Tell us something else. If we know nothing else about ourselves is that we have

guns to a genuinely problematic extent. That is not a fresh insight. We genuinely know. Yes, exactly. So you were like going deeper, deeper and deeper into it, which, you know, that was my guiding light as well when I first tell him. I'm so glad. My incredibly insightful advice of wait 24 months worked. It worked like a charm. I still can't believe it.

I just deep down didn't want to hear from you again for two years. I'm just all at worst. Come back with the same question in two years and then we'll talk. And I wonder like do you feel like satire in 2023? Is that, you know, you've been at the show, you've seen the daily show kind of evolved over a lot of times. Then when you joined a show, I don't, there wasn't anyone else doing it, kind of. There wasn't Tick-Tog, there wasn't Instagram. Oh, no, there wasn't those th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. they. their, their, you're, you're, tha. their, you're, you're, you're, you're, you. their, you. their, you. their, you. their, you. their, you. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. S. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. tthose things. Right. So it wasn't a bunch of, you know, like, fucking assholes on talking about, you know, like trying to do satire but fucking it up all the time.

And so, what? Sorry, now I'm just attacking a bunch of people on social media. I think you're now attacking the entire population of TikTok. Yeah, no, I'm down. I'm hosting for one day, come at me, tip-tock. I was distracted, but, do you have, is that a monogram shirt? What? If you have a monogram shirt? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very fancy shirt, right? Oh yeah, yeah. This one is, um, uh, I got this shirt made in New York City, Chinatown. Wow. No, he's a girl, he's a the th. He's a th. He's a th. He's a th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thr. I that's a th. that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a th. that's a, he's a legit tailor and then he asked me if I wanted my Chinese name embroidered on it.

I was like, go for it. And then now it just looks like a mustard stain. Yeah, it doesn't look like my surname at all. It does look a little bit like a mustard stain. It's a very stylish mustard stain. Yeah, did you guys get fancy suits when you got no suits? We got no suits. We've went th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thu, we got thu, thu, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, th. It, th. It, th. It, it th. It, it th. It, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it'd never owned a suit. Check out this boomer. Coming on a daily show, telling us how good we have it now about camera.

You didn't have a desk. We didn't have cameras. We had to go, to go to a place to buy a suit. And we're doing filpies, you wrecked them all the time. For years here, there's nothing that made tha th more angry than hearing that we got free suits when we did. And that was the thing that bothered them the most. There was no, no, you should have to go into the hole every year just to get a presentable

suit. Now look at you. Yeah, no, they did the show pay for that? Yeah, the show did. But monograms? They... You get monogrammed shirts now? Yeah, well, you know. Comedy Central has changed. I know things are a little choppy here, but monograms shirts?

No, I told them if they didn't monogram it, they were racist. And then they just did, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's a move that I can't make. Yeah, but like, that's the thing like we're both immigrants in America and do you ever I guess my question is like what how do you answer the people who are like if you don't like it here leave. Yeah I get that a lot. Yeah I mean I guess they took it's a I mean it's a horrible point but it's a fair question. I guess now my answer would be, I'm a citizen, you can't do that.

But I think, the tricky thing is I felt ownership, it's very dangerous, a British person saying I felt ownership of this country historically does not go well. It's amazing, I just went to India and I felt like I belonged. But I felt at home here long before my legal status was solid. That's the tricky thing as an immigrant, the more I felt at home here, the more cognizant you are of the fact that it's not up to you whether or not you get to stay or not. So it was a massive relief to get my green card. And an even bigger relief to get thiiiiiiiiii th, th, th, th, th, th, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like I th like I th like th like th like I th like I th like I th like I th like I th like th like th like th like th like th like th like I th like I th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th like th th like th th th like th like th like th like th like th like that that, that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that So it was a massive relief to get my green card. And an even bigger relief to get my citizenship. So, despite the fact, immigrants tend to talk shit. It's generally the kind of way that you talk shit with someone you genuinely love. Sure. Also, as a comedian,

I only really talk shit as a way of expressing love. Professionally. Exactly. I don't really know how to express myself sincerely. Right, right. I like you. I, as I, as I'm, I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. As a thi. As a thi. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm to to to thi. I'm teea. I'm tea. I'm tea.a. I'ma.a.a.a.a. I'ma. I'ma. I'm tea. I'm tea. I'm te. I don't really know how to express myself sincerely. Right, right. I like you. I'm never going to say that. F. You see? There you go. Yeah. Ffff, you in your show. That's all we love. That's about. I was back on that earlier point.

Do you feel that's a place for satire? Like, basically, the news is so crazy right now, reality is sometimes matching up to the news sometimes. In that environment, do you feel that satire is still possible? Like, you know, when you're doing a joke ironically, ironically, you feel like, people can get it, that you're trying to ironically be the bad guy in field piece? Oh, I see, you mean, like, if you're doing field pieces, because we used to play the that you do not agree with. Yeah. I mean in field pieces that's the way that we would operate all the time. In general, I mean our show's a little different. Like we're not in the... Yeah, I'm not asking about your show. I'm asking about what for me. I mean, we're not asking for you know fucking you figured it out. I'm talking about for me. I think. I'm the the the the th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm th. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. th. th. th. th.there's, I think there'll always be a place for satire. I mean, there was a place for it in Germany in the 30s.

It didn't seem to work out that well over there, but they gave it a go. Yeah. So, no, I think there will always be, and I, unlike you, I'm happy for people online to try and do it as well. Ronnie, really would like nobody to thi. No, all about earn your voice like me. I did. I had to fucking get on this show to get a voice. You don't get a voice just because you're in your underwear on Instagram. I don't know. Ronnie regrets that gatekeepers have been removed from the process. You really like the gates. It was so tough to come here. You know, it was really tough for me to come here. I like

you, I also really wanted to come here. That is th. I like you. I like you. I the the the the to really. I also. I also, I also, I also, I also, I also really, I also really really, I also, I also really really, I also really really really, I to really really, I also really really really really really really really really really really really really really, I also really really really really really really really, I also, I also, I also really really really, I also really, I also really, I also really, I also really, I also, I also really really, I, I to to to to to to to really really really really really really really really really really, I also, I also, I also really really really, I also, I also, I also really really, I also, I also really, I also, I also really, I also, I also really, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, immigration process is. When they say, to people come in the right way, I don't think they realize how literally impossible that is in some aspects. When I got my green card here, they brought it to me in my office upstairs and they gave me a Budweiser and an apple pie with a little American flag in it. I think they would give it as if like here's a joke, right? Oh you got it, you're always going to get it, here it is, and I nearly cried. And for a British person, nearly crying is crying. That's as close as I can come, but I was so relieved because I was worried about it so much. Yeah.

And so I think you tend to find out like when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when when someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone someone, to to to to to to the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, their, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,talking before, exactly, when you find out someone just got their green card, you can kind of almost feel the relief coming off it because it's such a concern. It's not easy. No, it's not easy. In fact, even the green card, even the visa before the green card. It's called the extraordinary ability visa. Yes. You have to prove, first of all that you have extraordinary ability, which I challenge anyone to do, unless you're freaking an NBA player, someone's foot, and then second of all, it's like, if you don't constantly prove that they can deport you.

Yeah. Like, if I have a bag segment on the daily show, I'm, yeah. That's right. You did not demonstrate extraordinary ability. That was at median level ability. That is the worst thing about coming in on a, the visa, the visa, the visa, the visa, the visa, the visa, the visa, the visa, the visa, the, the, the, thing about coming in on a visa is like occasionally they'll look at the visa and say what do you do because they're expecting a surgeon. Yeah. Someone with a marketable skill and the moment you say comedian like that's this is not for you.

That's not. And also then if it's all go tell me something funny like or what is this a fun bit or is this the moment I get deported? Do I need a joke on hand totally? It demonstrates extraordinary ability in terms of wordcraft. Yes, it's incredibly stressful in a way people don't understand. Yeah, so in a weird way I'm with you in that like immigrants to America who come here actually want to be here and have fought to be here and were the ones who get shit done here. Yes. Because we had to f-improve it every single time. That's right. Immigrants.

That's right. We get the job done. Yeah. I would say what is more quintessentially American than coming to a country you don't belong in and deciding you're going to stay? Yeah. And at Thanksgiving of all times. Yes, all right. So we get it, you know, every interview I've researched you on, you've

professed your love for America, you're still here, clearly you still love it. Yeah. Okay, so can you shut the fuck up and be American for one minute instead of constantly complaining and talking like a fucking foreign all the time? I mean, I challenge you. You challenged me to be American? Yes, I want you to eat this hot dog right now. Oh boy. And then I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their pr. their pr. their their their their their their their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. t. t. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. try. th. th. th. th. th. th. challenged me to be American? Yes. I want you to eat this hot dog right now. Oh boy. And then I want you to throw this football and first you have to call it a football. Okay, I can't do that. I call it an American football. Okay, American football. And you've got to eat that first and you throw this to me. Okay, like like this. No, no. You got a tied spiral. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. tho. tho. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to. to. to. the. the. tho. the. tho. tho. tho. th. tho. th. th. th.. We're gonna go over there. Okay, all right. So eat this first. We got this from a bodega, so you might. Oh, no.

This is the way we... USA! USA! All right. And then, you gotta come over here, and you gotta stand right here. And you gotta throw a tight spiral. How hard can not be? All right, hang on, hang on.

All right. Can we get a drum roll? For you? For you? For you? Ready? Yeah. All right.

You proved that. All right. Yeah proved that. All right. Yeah, we're gonna. This is last week tonight with John Oliver. As wherever you'll find it, who gives a fuck, we'll take a- That's not how you throw to a break. We'll be right back after this. Thank you, John Oliver.

He's gone out. Hey, everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show, coming out every Thursday. We're going to be talking about the election. Earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts.

But how many of them come out on Thursday? Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. My guest tonight is an award-winning, best-selling author and illustrator, whose picture book is called Big. Please welcome Vashy Harrison. Okay. Hi. Thank you for coming. Thanks. Get it. You're trying to sit down. Okay. Hi.

Hi. Thank you for coming. Thanks for having me. We're going to steal your jacket. Sparky. First of all, I love this book. I love, love, love this book. Oh, I can't cry.

The illustration for this book are beautiful. And when I was looking through it, it made, they're very emotive and it actually made me think of looking at a memory. I think it's the best way to look at it because like in the book there's no, I like an illustration that there's on like lines. Like usually when you see like a cartoon like a like a like a like a like a like a cartoon like a cartoon like a cartoon like a cartoon like a cartoon like a cartoon like a cartoon like a cartoon like a the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. the illustration. the illustration. the illustration. the illustration for the illustration for the illustration for the illustration for the illustration for the illustration. the illustration. the illustration. the illustration. the illustration. the the illustration. the illustration. the illustration. the the illustration. the illustration. the the illustration. the the the the illustration. the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the the the. I. I. I the. I's. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. the. I'm. I'm. the. I'm. the. I'm. the. I'm. the. the.there's on like lines. Like usually when you see like a cartoon or an illustration, it's like, oh, this is a drawing. Right. And I think the idea that it gave me was like, I was looking back. And so when you're doing a book like this, like what comes first, the drawings or the text?

For me, it happens at the same time. But drawing is always where I thrown is always the thi is always the thi is always the book. I wanted it to feel soft, wanted it to feel really internal, so I hope that that comes through for everybody. That's exactly what I thought because we're like, well it's beautiful and I was like, no, this looks like, because it's like the, like this is the first book that you've written and illustrated, and was it scary to do both of those? Yeah, absolutely. So I've written nonfiction before, and so I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi the thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, thi, that's that's that's like, that's like, that's like, that's like, that's like, that's that's that's that's that's their their their their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thoooooooooooooooooooo. thoooooooooo. thoooo. thi. I thi's the process of making art. No, I'm a stand-up comic. So it's like, oh, I hope these words I say, people like them. Because it's like, as a comic, the first time you go on stage with a joke, it's like for information. I need to know if this is funny or not.

And then every time you do the joke, it's for confirmation. So I know I know the joke the joke the joke the joke the joke the joke the joke the joke the joke, I the joke, I the joke, I the joke, I just the joke, I just the joke, I just the joke, I just the joke, I just the joke, I just the joke, I know the joke is funny, I just need you to catch up to where I am. But the first I know what I'm doing. But the first couple times you're like, hey man, I don't know if I said these words, right? I don't know if they're going to like the words in this order. And then you got to figure out. Doing events for kids is sort of like the same thing. I feel like I'm doing stand-up, waiting for their jokes, waiting for them to connect with the story. And if they don't like it, then I haven't done my job correctly.

Oh yeah, I used to do kids' birthday parties. I've had a lot of jobs. Every time I'm in the office, I'm like, hey, man, don't worry about that. many questions. But making stuff for kids is hard because you have to keep their attention you have to keep their focus. So obviously the title big connotes like a physical size but in the book big means that and like a lot more. So can you talk about what the bigness means here? Yeah I was thinking a lot about how we as adults use words with children when kids are young. We use big as a word of affirmation. We say you're such a big girl.

You're a big girl now and that's a good thing. But typically with girls and all children big changes meaning and I wanted to trace how that word can go from a word of affirmation into something different for a child's life. Oh yeah because I remember being a big girl and being a big girl. Yeah. And when that day happened, I think you're like, I don't know, 11. And then it's like, oh you're such a big girl. Like, oh, she's a big girl.

Right. And you remember that. Yeah. Because like that why it was so interesting to me. Because like this is semi-a autobiographical right so the main character gets stuck in like a baby swing and y'all I've seen the baby swing at a swing set and you know thought like I shouldn't get in this thing but you did try like we all try so is this something that actually happened to you like getting stuck in that swing? Yes so the girl in the book is not me she doesn't have th th. th th th th th th th th. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that th. that th. that th. th. that th. th. that th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th. th. th th. th that th. that's that's th. th. that's th. I that's that that's like like that that's like that that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like that's like theeeeeeeeeeee the the the the this something that actually happened to you, like getting stuck in that swing? Yes. So the girl in the book is not me. She doesn't have a name, but the experience of getting stuck in the swing was real and it happened to me. And I remember it. I remember the

fear and the anxiety and the shame that I felt as a young child. And I wanted to kind of make a book that acknowledge that those feelings are big and sometimes can trap us in and box us in and express how those feelings can be really overwhelming for a young person. So why doesn't she have a name? Because I was reading the book, because this is a page turner, even at my big age.

Why doesn't she have a name? Well, I didn't want her story to be mine. I wanted many people to be able to look at the girl in this book and maybe connect with her, feel empathy for her and thusly feel compassion for her and thusly feel compassion for her experience. But when I started writing it, I really wanted it to be a wordless book. Right now, there's only a handful of words in the book, but it would have been great to just tell everything

through the pictures. Yeah, because I was like looking at it, and I think because it looks like a memory, and it's a little girl that looks like me, and because she didn't have a name, I was like, oh, I've all seen the baby swing. And if you're not a baby, you really have no business trying to get in this baby. But I would see other girls get into it.

And I'm just like, oh, where's the rest of her legs? Um, yeah. Why are her legs? She's nine, why are her legs only as big as a toddler? Like we shouldn't be upset that I'm so big, why she's so small? Like what? Somebody calls somebody because I feel like she needs help at home. But that was my way of like processing the fact that this nine-year-old girl could fit in a baby swing and I couldn't.

Because I love the use of the color pink in the book? Is that where you add in like the softness? Or was it because it was a classic like girl color and she's a dancer? Like what was the choice to use the color color? There were a couple of different reasons. So the main character is a dancer. She loves ballet. Typically, when I work on a book, I usually assign a color to a character and try to use that to build a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette a palette, and build a palette, and build a palette, and a palette, and build a palette, and a palette, and a palette, and a palette, and a palette, and a palette, and a color, and a color, and a color, and a color, and a color, and a color, and a color, and a color, and a color, and a color, and a, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, and, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, asa.s, asa.s, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, asa, and try to use that to build a palette and specifically in this book we're in her world so everything is that color

pink. I wanted it to be a symbol for sweetness and innocence but also in color psychology pink is associated with gentle love and care and that's everything that I want for this girl. So you were trying to give her the moment because I think a lot of times as like girls, especially black girls, were given womanhood much older than we should be, right? And because I think for me, I got womanhood much older than I should be because I was, well, let's just say when I was nine years old, I had like, sees, right? So the first time I hit a man hit on me, it was nine. But, but, but I had a but I had a but I had a but I had a but I had a but I had a but I had a but I had big, I had big, I had big, I had big, I had big, I had big, I had big, I had big, I had a b b b. I had a b. I had a woman, I had, I had, I had, I had, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, w. would, w. would, w. W. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, w. Well, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was. Well, I was, I was. Well, I was. Well, I was. Well, I was. Well, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, w. th. th. th. to. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th first time a man hit on me, it was nine. But I had a butt, had big boobs, and I was wearing a suit. So because I couldn't wear a little girl clothes

because they didn't make little girl clothes in women's sizes. So I was looking at size nine shoes in a suit. And this man comes in and just like, what's your name? And I had to turn around and go, I'm nine. And he was like, thi th. And my mother went what the hell? And he ran out of a Miami pay list. And so without going at first, why does she look like this? And then he ran outside, but it was like when you're built like a time, because I was also like four, like I was five feet tall. So when you look like a tiny woman or you're the size of a whole woman, but you're nine, everyone's like, well, you should have all these responsibilities.

And it's like, but I got dolls for Christmas. So I'm not a double-digit age. But everyone's like, you get all this responsibility. And I think it's like, that's why I like looking at this, because I was like, oh, this girls should have. Because we should get to ask you the next question. Well, thank you. I do want to tou toub.

Hi, I want to talk about it. I want to talk about it. I want to talk about that because one of the main reasons I wanted to write this story was to touch on the subject of adultification bias, the adultification of black girls. Early in my career I'd read the study that came from the Georgetown Law Center on Poverty and Inequality called Girlhood Interrupted that talked about the specific bias that many adults have on black girls. It found that adults view black girls as young as the age of five as less innocent and more adult than their white counterparts. And this results in young girls receiving less care and less

nurturing. And so many different things factor into it, including a child's height, age, skin color, body size and weight. And I just wanted to reclaim space for children to grow, for their bodies to look different, to offer them the innocence and gentleness and care that they deserve for as long as they need it. Yeah, because you find out like, black girls get, out of all, like girls in school, they get suspended as a higher rate.

Exactly. As if, like, like like black children and brown children are suspended at a higher rate. Because it's like, I don't know if we're throwing hands better than white girls, but it's very interesting. Because it's like you use the words creative and compassionate and kind to describe these, you know, to describe her character. And it's like, I think a lot of times, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, it's, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, th th thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, to to thin, to thin, thin, thin, thin, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, thin, their, thin, thin, thin, thin, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thin, thin, her character. And it's like, I think a lot of times like a young girl, if you're allowed to even be little, you know,

you get like a lot of cute or pretty. Like do you think it affects girls to hear different words like compassionate and kind, like giving words that are more described like descriptors of person, just adjectives of personality as opposed like appearance. Yeah I think I just want for all kids to be able to define who they are. Adults will make mistakes, they will say things, words that you know we don't know what's going to stick with kids but I wanted to clarify for this girl and for any kid that reads this book that you get to choose what's important and real for you and you don't have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to have to h. to h. to h. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. I I. their. I. their. their. their. their. their. I. their. their. I their. I their. I just. I just. I just. I their. I their. I just. I just. I just. I just. I just. I their. I their. I'm to clarify for this girl and for any kid that reads this book that you get to choose what's important and real for you and you don't have to hold on to anything that doesn't define you. You get to decide that for yourself.

There's one page in here and I want to know, can I show the page in the book that she's thrown. not going to spoil it for people because you have to see her grow and grow in the changes that she goes to, but there's one page. Almost there. That I, and I think you know exactly the page I'm talking about, where me and our makeup artist Enid was literally crying in the makeup room. And I don't know if you know how crying in the makeup room room works, but it's basically you just tilt your head back and you can't just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. th. I th. I the th. I just just just just just just their their their their th. I'm just, I'm just just, thi. I'm just, thi. I'm just, the fact, the fact, the fact, the fact, I'm just, I'm the fact, I'm the fact, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I's, I the fact, I the fact, I the fact, I the fact, I's the fact, I's the fact, I'm the fact, I'm the fact, I'm the fact, I'm their thin, I'm their thi. I'm thi. I'm not, their their their their their th.a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a'a, thi. Because Enid is an amazing makeup artist, but it's just like, there's salt on my face now.

So, but the thing that we were just like, that made her stop and made me stop where the little girl goes to the adults. These are yours. These are yours. They hurt me. And so she's holding words. And she said, these are yours, they hurt me. And so she's holding words. And she said, these are yours, they hurt me. And so I think, like, that's when I was looking at this, I was like, this is a lot of people that make a lot of money, my therapist included, who

make a lot of money trying to show adults how to love and care for themselves. And I'm just, is there like a grown-up version of this book, can we call like still big? Like can we? Like, can we? How do we? How do we? Just a little bit at the top. And then there's just a bad bitch at the bottom. Like, that's all I'm saying.

Just still big, bad bitch at the bottom. You might be modeled on me, making a style, and I don. I think that that could be some grown-ups might also need help with this. So, thank you for that. Of course. Of course. I think this is something that everyone can resonate with. So I'm happy that anyone can resonate with. I'm happy that anyone can find something.

I think this can't that everyone can resonate with, because there's a lot of times where just words have just, because I always takes just like sticks and stones can break your bones, or words, I'm like, I can get over a bruise. But like I learned with my ex-emotional scars never heal. Don't learn from me. Don't listen to me. I'm not helpful a lot of think that is the main thing we have to stop telling that lie. Because I think we say that to children's for them to be able to make this defense mechanism.

Because like, you don't remember, like if you remember every time you fell off a bike, you wouldn't get back on a bike. But you remember, you don't always remember what someone said, but you remember how they made you feel. For sure. And so because of the words can make you feel a certain way, even you forget what they said, your body still remembers. Yeah. And that's why I think I wanted to show the scene in the book where the words are stuck

to the girl. It doesn't happen immediately. It happens, you know, over time. And again, you just don't know what is going to stick with kids. You can't guarantee that things won't stick to you, but you know over time you can separate out what's good for you and what isn't. I think the page after the page you pointed out is the one that always gets me, which is she hands back the words and says these are yours, they hurt me. And on the next page, some of the people say, well, not everyone understood or even listened and some of the people say, it's not that serious.

It's just a joke. You're too sensitive. That's the thing that still gets me because I am still that girl who was told that I'm too sensitive for listening to the words that people said to me, for letting them resonate and for feeling them. Oh yeah. But that's so real. And kids need often the space and the time to manage those things. Well, you're absolutely right.

I want to thank you for coming. And this is available now. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the daily show, wherever you get your podcasts.. And, and th. And, and th, and th, th, th, th. th. the th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thate, thate, thee, thee, thee, thee, thee, thi, th. That's, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi. thi. thi. thi, thi. thi. thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that, that Show Podcast Universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. Hey, everybody, John Stewart here.

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