The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Jonah Goldberg - "Suicide of the West" and Preserving the American Experiment

Episode Date: January 7, 2022

"Suicide of the West" author Jonah Goldberg argues the rise of liberal and conservative populist ideologies threatens to undermine America's fundamental ideals. Originally aired April 2018. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. My guest tonight is a senior editor at National Review, an LA Times columnist, American Enterprise Institute scholar and best-selling author whose latest book is called Suicide of the West how the rebirth of tribalism, nationalism, and identity politics is destroying American democracy. Please welcome, Jonah Goldberg. I thought about pawing you up, sort of a Macron versus Trump kind of thing and getting all handsy, but I decided better not. We should have done that. We should have done like a little handshake into a kiss, into like a little moment, into a thing. Yeah, I could have like, thrown, like, a little moment into a thing. Yeah, I could have like whispered, I like your musk, which is the way I think th, I th, I th, I th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, to. And, to. And, to. And, to, to, a, to, to, to, to, to. And, to. And, to. to. to. to. to. to. to. into a thing. Yeah, I could have like whispered, I like your musk, which is the way I think he was saying to him at one point. It felt like it. It felt like it. Trump's really into him, which is something that is good for America, yes?

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. You know, if it's good for merit for but if he's only doing it because someone he's sucking up to him less good right I mean it should be they getting along because we have mutual interests we have mutual values right right and they reflect that it shouldn't be be because the leader of France says not only are you a handsome man you're a powerful man right I mean it shouldn't just be sucking up. It should be something more. I feel like it should just be that. Yeah. Welcome to the show.

Great to be here. Thanks for coming through. And you have written quite a book here. Suicide of the West. If ever there's a title that would catch you, is that. Why the title of the book? Well, in part because I didn't, because, because, because, because, because, because, I, because, I, because, because, I, I, because, I, because, because, I the the the the the the the the the the th, because, because, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the thi. to to to to to be. to be. to be. to be. to be. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. the. the. toe. toe. toe. toe. toea. toea. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. the. the. the West, as grim as the title sounds, and it actually doesn't end as grim as it sounds, suicides a choice. You choose to do, to make these decisions that you're making. And I think that one of the things that people don't appreciate is that if you, you can choose

not to do them as well, and that a lot of the things that are plaguing this country are within our own power to fix. Right, it's interesting because you talk about nationalism, tribalism, populism, all of these things that you believe are leading to the decline of America. When you talk about the decline of America, are you specifically referring to capitalism and the way it's made America thrive over the past 300 years? In part, I mean, I call this the miracle right? But the miracle isn't just capitalism. It's also natural rights, civil rights, free speech, all of the things that we associate with the Bill of Rights, the idea that the individual sovereign, that we are captains of ourselves, that we are citizens, not subjects, that the government the government works for us, we don't work for a government. These are all unbelievably new ideas in the history of humanity. Humanity split off from the Neanderthals like 300,000 years ago, and for most of humanity's

existence, we were poor, ignorant, bloody, violent creatures, right? And our human nature hasn't changed. We are still the same creatures we were 10,000 years ago. What has changed are our values, our norms, our institutions, and if you don't have gratitude for them, and if you don't try to protect them, and if you don't try to protect them, and if you don't try protect them, and if you don't try to protect them, and if you don't try to protect them, because that seems like an argument many people in America will use for one group or another. What's interesting in this book is you refer to both sides of the political spectrum

doing similar damage or an idea that may cause damage to that idea in the same way. So, for instance, you write for a national review as a conservative writer, but at the same time, you are not a fan of Trump. I think that's fair. Right. So you are saying that populism both on Trump's side and on the left, there's a danger of that hurting America's got to power. There's nothing wrong with a little populism, right? There's nothing wrong with a little nationalism.

It's like a pinch of salt brings out the flavor in the meal. Too much ruins the meal and way the meal, the meal, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the thi, the the thi, thi, thi, the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi. throwneea, throooooooooomoomoomorrow, tomorrow, thooomorrow, they. their, their, their, Too much, ruins the meal, and way too much is literally poisonous, right? And so all poisons are determined by the dosage. You know, my favorite New Yorker cartoon, which my wife got blown up for me a few years ago and framed, has two dogs drinking martinis at a bar. And one dog says to the other, you know, it's not good enough that dogs succeed. Cats must also fail. And that's sort of where we are as a culture right now. Where it's not, you know, and this drives me crazy about my own side these days where I talk to young conservative activists, college students and I say, look, by all means fight political correctness if that's what you want to do.

But just because being rude is politically incorrect doesn't mean being rude is good. And so much of what's happening, I think on both sides of the political aisle, is this idea that you can do almost any horrible thing if it annoys the right people. Right. And that's a huge part of the defense of Donald Trump, which I just find intellectually bankrupt, which is, well, he's got the right enemies, or he's making the right people upset. Well, you have to look at what is actually upsetting them. And some of the things that upset, you know, liberals and left is I can agree with, and I'll support.

But some of the other things are just sort of crassness, rudeness for its own thi. rudeness for its own sake, and I don't see why I should defend that just because he's on my team as it were. It's interesting that you bring up teams because it does feel like America is drifting into a space where politics is solely about teams. You pick your team, whatever your team does, you defend. So the other team, whatever they do, you pick the opposite. The ref is biased, this is against us, th. th. th. th. Tos. Tos. Tos. Tos. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, th. T, thi. T, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. It is thi. thi. thi. thi. It is thi. It is thi. It is thi. It is th. It is th. It is, th. It is, th. It is, is th. It is, is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It, th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It is th. It's, thi. It's thi. It's thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. theea. thr-a. thi. thi. thi. the. It's thi. It, those are not facts because they don't work in our favor. Does this, in your opinion, lead to a place where the experiments of America begins to decline? Is that the only thing that's kept it moving?

Or has it just been an illusion that's lasted for 300 years because there were people who were previously oppressed? And that wasn't something that America ever was. No, look, look, I mean, are there the their, I their, American history that we need to atone for, that we need to fix? Are that we have problems today that we need to still work on? Absolutely. My point is, is that, again, human nature has no history. Human nature is a constant. We have the, if you took a kid from New Rochelle and you sent them back to a Viking village to be raised by Vikings a thousand years ago, he would end up going pillaging the English countryside.

You take a Viking baby and you bring it to New Rochelle, he's going to grow up to be an orthodontist, right? And... A very big orthodontist, but yeah, yeah. And so, these challenges exist in every generation. It is human nature to want to be part of a thiiiiiiiiiiiii. thi. th. th. th. the, th. th. And, th. And, thi, the, thi, th. And, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the. the. the. the, th. thi, you, you, you, you, you, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, you, you, you, you, you, you, th. And, you, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, thin, thin, thin, t. toge, ty, ty, ty. ty. togu. ty, ty, ty. ty. to, ty. to, you, you, you, you, you your tribe. We are hardwired to be part of a group. That's how we evolved is to say, I will do everything to help, and Darwin writes about this, I'll do everything to help my team, my friends, my kin, my family, my allies, my coalition, and the stranger is the enemy. And what it, you know, and so people, you know, there's a common cliche, the ccleclecleclecle, the ccle, the ccle, the ccle, the c, the c, their cl cl cl cl cl cl cl cl cl cl cli, their their their their, to to to to be a c. to be a c. to be a c. to be, to be, to be a to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, toe, the, the, the, the.a. the. the. the. the. the. throwne. the. the. the. thean. thean. thean. thean. throwne. throwne, and, and, and, and thr that says people have to be taught to hate. No, they actually have to be taught not to hate. That's what civilizations do is teach people to see,

and it starts with Christianity or Judaism. You can go way back in the religion department, but the fundamental insight is that you need to teach people that strangers have human dignity, that strangers are decent people, and just because you don't know them doesn't mean or or don't agree with them it doesn't make them the enemy and I think we're falling down on that in our politics and our education and instead we're telling people just go with your feelings your rage is more important than facts or argument right and that's where you get populism that's where you get a lot of nationalism too but if you if you have somebody who is trying to end you, how do you then work on responding to that?

Because that's something that I'm always trying to figure out in my head is, it's one thing for people to say, let's keep politics civil, let's not have an argument, let's not point each other out as enemies, etc. But there are times when, let's say Charlottesville is a good example. There are people who are literally saying we are Nazis. These people are wishing for the end of other human beings. It's a bit difficult at that point to say, yes, yes, but let's us sit with them and engage as they drive over us. It's a very difficult space to be in. I agree with you. And look, my last name is Goldberg. I'm not, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, let's, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. People, th. People, th. People, th. People, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. theeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. thee. thee. the. the. the. the. th. you and look and look my last name's Goldberg I'm not really a turn the other cheek guy I'm more of a smiting and wrath guy so I get what you're talking about but right but my point is and I agree with you

and tell you about the neo-nazis one of the things that infuriates me about what Steve Bannon and some of the people around true. I'm try and thrown. the the thin. thin. thin. thin. thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm thrown, I'm thi, I'm th. I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm th. I'm th. I th. I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to thin, I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm thin, I'm thi. I'm more theeean, I'm more thiiii. I'm more thiii. I'm more thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm our coalition. And I would keep trying to explain to these people, no, you don't understand. They literally say that they want to get rid of people like me, people like you. Why should I form a common group with them just to get this guy elected or just for political purposes, whatever. Some things are existential questions. And I'm not saying that we should have gone to Charlottes, the Ch Charlott Nazis, right? But the idea that somehow they have something important to say that I need to find common ground with them,

I think is ridiculous. Right. I also think it's ridiculous to call people who aren't Nazis, Nazis as a way to demonize them. And I think there's a lot of question, and you have to sort of figure it out as you go. It doesn't mean you can't have big arguments. I've always believed that democracy is about disagreement, not about agreement. It's about having arguments. What I don't like about our politics right now is how people don't think arguments matter at all, that facts don't matter, that the whole point of the toaunton. The wo the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole point of the whole the whole of of of of the woom-a-a-aul-aul-aul-a' thoan't thi. thi. thi. thoan't their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. th. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the thau. thau. te. tea. tea. tea. teau. teau. tea. teau. tea. thau. the the thau. t Enlightenment was this idea that you could persuade people.

And part of the reason I wrote this book is it's much a cautionary tale to my allies on the right is that a lot of people are just giving up on persuasion and instead it's just hammer and tongs, cats must fail, it's all about power. The arguments in defense of Donald Trump in 2016 were all about winning and strength. Winning and strength are not, they're absolutely amoral concepts. Winning for what? Strength for what?

Unity for what? It has to be the ideas that underlie it. And we're in a moment where a lot of people just don't care about ideas anymore. One of the big ideas that you share in the book is that America needs to focus on less identity politics on both sides and more and tha and thaaa...... focus on less identity politics on both sides and more on merits, because merits is how capitalism thrives. Merit is what moves a society forward.

When you say that, though, do you think sometimes a statement like that ignores the fact that some people's merits is overlooked because of identity politics? Yeah, yeah, yeah, look, it's funny. Like, most of the liberals I talk to, they like the words, they agree with me on the the popul popul popul the popul the popul the popul the popul the popul their their th, th, th, th, th, th, thism, thism, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thism, thism, thrives, thrives, thrives, thrives, thrives, thrives, thri- is thri- thrives, is thism, is thrives, thism, thrives, thrives, thrives, thi, thi, thism, thism, thism, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, thrie, thrie, to the, to to to to thrie, to, thrie, to, thrie, thrivoe, thrie, thrivoe, yeah, yeah, look, you know, it's funny, like most of the liberals I talk to, they like the words, they agree with me on the populism and nationalism and they don't like the, and the tribalism, they don't like the identity politics part, right? I am not saying that you can't, first of all, I'm not saying that of the great and glorious things, and Barack Obama was very eloquent about this, about this country, is not that America were,

the founding fathers were hypocrites when they started this country. They were. You know, the slavery was a big, you know, hey, what about that? Right. That's a great description. Yeah, but you know what I'm getting at.

So what happens is, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, then, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the founding, the the the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the along with the Gettysburg address and he redefines what this country is about about equality and then Martin Luther King says, hey wait a second, a hundred years later, he says, wait a second, the founding fathers were a promissory note to the American people that all men including black men are equal. It's the unfolding of that story that is what matters. And so one of the core values, all civilization is, is the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. And one of the reasons why Martin Luther King was so persuasive is he was appealing to the best ideals of white America and saying you should take people as you find

them. One of the great things about the American founding, which doesn't get taught anymore is that we got rid of titles of nobility. We got rid of the notion that simply by an accident of birth, one person is better than another person. And so a little identity politics, just like a little nationalism, in terms of ethnic pride and solidarity, all of that is fine. When you start reducing whole categories of people to an abstraction and say, all I need to know about you is the color of your skin. That's when you get into a problem. thrarararararara – th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. And, thi. thi. that, that that that that that's, that's, that's, thi. that's, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th know about you is the color of your skin. Right. That's when you get into a problem. And this idea that all white people are racist is, is, first of all, not true.

You know, intermarriage rates between white and blacks are going through the roof. They can't all be racist, right? But I think the argument is less all white people are racist. And the system has been created by white people the the the the the the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, the, the, the, is, the, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is thi, is, is, is, is, is thi, is tho, is tho, is, is tho, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is thi is, is thi. is thi. thi. the the the the the the the thi racist, I think that's disingenuous. But most of the time the argument people are saying is, hey, we can admit that this system from the founding fathers through to redlining, through to segregation was written in such a way that it would benefit one race over another. It would it would hamper the cats and allow the dogs to succeed. And look look. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that, the the that, that, tho, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that, that, that, that, toge. togu. togu. togu. togu. togu. toda. today, the. the. the. the the. ththe dogs to succeed. And look, and I think there's obviously a lot of truth to that. At the same time, the definition of who counts as white changed over time.

You listen to Benjamin Franklin. It changed for everyone except black people. That's true, and that's true too. And that's part of my point equality, that is not an argument for getting rid of the value of universal equality. It is to say that we need to be more consistent in applying these ideals rather than saying these ideals themselves are bankrupt because it is these ideals that for all of human history the average human being everywhere on earth lived on average of $3 a day.

Africa, Asia, Europe, everywhere. And then once and only once in all of human history, it starts to go like this. And it's because these ideas start getting put into action. I think we should be, you know, we live in this moment of the greatest alleviation of material poverty. Hundreds of millions of people in Africa are coming out of poverty. And it's not because of UN programs, they help. It's because of these ideas starting to germinate, lifting people up. Maybe have just a little gratitude for them.

And maybe have a little room to say, maybe the entire story of this 300-year miracle isn't a story of purely of oppression and tyranny. Were we bad things happen in the past? Yes, have things been getting better? Yes. You can say both things. You can say both things, nuance. The way I like to think of it is this.

I go, capitalism in many ways should be like software on a phone. It constantly needs to be updated. And at some points it feels like the upt stopped and people allow it to, you know, stagnate in the way that it is. And to your point of gratitude, before I let you go, I think the one thing, and I wonder if you can maybe understand this, is when people say you should be grateful for what you have, do you not think that gratitude is always relative to the bottom versus the top in where you are? Because, to say to say to say to say to say it to say it to say it to say it to say it, and you, and you, and you, to say it, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to say, to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the they. And, they. We, they. th. th. th. to, th to, th th thr. tooooooooooo, is, is, too, is, too, too, is, is, to, is, to, is bottom versus the top in where you are. Because to say to somebody, and you hear this all the time, I'm not saying, you're saying politicians will say, oh black people, you complain about America, go live in Afghanistan,

see what that's like. I say, but you're not living in Afghanistan. If I'm in a Michelin Star restaurant and the food is not great, you can't tell me to go to Arby's because I complain. Right. I'm saying to you, the food is not what it was promised in this restaurant. So is it not difficult to say to people who have gratitude when they are not living in the promise of what the country's meant to be? Yeah, no, I think that's fair.

I think at the same time, for the law, I don't say that to people, right? You know, and I really know, honestly, I'm not saying. And so, one of the first, you're one of the good ones. One of the things, I, I, for one of the things, and look, I mean, I've, I've taken slings and arrows from lots of different directions, including from a lot of friends and former friends. Right. One of the things things I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I things, I'm thinks, I thinks, I'm thinks, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, tho, the, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you... One, you, you, you. One, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, I. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One. One, I the things things things things things things things things things things things things things things things, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, one, I'm, one, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, who make that argument is, stop making that argument. Right. You know, that's not how you should frame this kind of thing. What I would say is that, you know, the pursuit of happiness is,

it's not a guarantee. You have the right to pursue it. And one of the great things about freedom, the miracle, liberal democratic capitalism, whatever you want to call it, is it gives more people the opportunity to pursue it. Could that get better? Yeah. But you can't look at any of the systems we had prior to 300 years ago, and I'm not sure

you can look at it to most of the sort of nationalist or socialist systems and say, they're better at it. And so when people say, we fall short of ideals, I say, well, of course, that's why they call them ideals. You're not supposed to be able to live up. They're supposed to be a North Star, you know. The thing that you're true North that you march towards, and you can always get better at them.

My point is we shouldn't throw them away because this is the only game in town in terms of what has actually taken humanity out of the muck of its natural environment. Capitalism is unnatural. Democracy is unnatural. Right. If they were natural, you would think they would show up a little earlier in the evolutionary record than about 299,000 years into our existence here. And so maybe these are things that we should be a little more protective of. If a goose, the golden goose, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the muce th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thuc, thucooomuce thuc, thuc, thucooomu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu, thu, thu, thu, thuu, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thu. thu. thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thiiiiiiiiiiu thu thu thu thu and so maybe these are things that we should be a little more protective of. If a goose, the golden goose came into your house out of nowhere and started, you know, golden eggs don't sound modern anymore, started squeezing out winning lottery tickets.

This is a right analogy but yeah, but you would your response to it should be gratitude not like give me more you know more lottery tickets than you can produce. But that's what the story is about is it's not really so much about greed, it's about in gratitude. It says... I think fundamentally I understand what you're saying. It says, I think, I think fundamentally I understand what you're saying. And I think, that's what I think. that's what I appreciate about the book is. thrapapapapapapapapapapapapapapapap. the book is saying. the book is saying. the book. the book. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thr-I. tho. thr-I's thi. thr-I's thogea. tho tho tho tho. tho. tho. tho. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. thea. thr about the size of government and all these kinds of things, but there's some fundamental things that we should all be able to agree have merit and are worth keeping. You start the conversation. Thank you so much. Suicide of the West is available now.

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