The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Klepper Podcast - How Community Helps Veterans Recover from Trauma - Uncensored

Episode Date: May 10, 2019

Jordan Klepper discusses his time with a group of veterans who uses wrestling to treat PTSD and talks to "Tribe" author Sebastian Junger about how isolation worsens trauma. Subscribe to the Klepper podcast: apple.co/2KUaH87 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hey everybody, John Stewart here. I am here to tell you about my new podcast, The Weekly Show, coming out every Thursday. We're going to be talking about the election, earnings calls. What are they talking about on these earnings calls? We're going to be talking about ingredient to bread ratio on sandwiches. I know you have a lot of options as far as podcasts go, but how many of them come out on Thursday. Listen to the weekly show with John Stewart, wherever you get your podcast. You're listening to Comedy Central. That sound that you're hearing is me going through a table at the mercy of a 250 pound man's body slam.

It didn't feel great. It felt worse than great. But I will say I was comforted by the fact that that very large amateur wrestler lying on top of me was a veteran who had served our country, and then my pain was nothing compared to what these other veterans have to wrestle with when they return home from serving our country. My bone-crushing moments of discovery and physical pain, or what the network calls great storytelling are just some of what goes down when you're out on the road.

That's what this podcast is about. It's a chance for to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the chance the chance the chance the the the the th thi the thi thi thi thi thi tho tho tho tho tho thoen thoen thoen the the the the thoe tho-a tho-a tho-a tho-a their their their their their their their their their their their their their the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi thi. I thi. I thi. I' the the the te tean. tean. tean. teanneuuu. tean. teanneu. teanneu. teate. the road. That's what this podcast is about. It's a chance for me to tell you a little bit about the experiences I had out on the road. I bring in some producers, some writers, some people who also help make the show. If you've never seen the show, that's okay. You suck a bit, but you can still listen to this podcast. If you have seen it, th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. th. the th. the th. the to the to be the the to be the the the the the to be the the the the the the to be. the to listen, to listen, to listen, to listen, the the to listen, to to too, to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tode. today, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, today, well done. Today, the podcast we got an amazing conversation with Sebastian Younger, seasoned war correspondent, and author of the book Tribe. But first, we want to take you further into the story of the Valholic Club and how they are wrestling their PTSD demons. This is Clepper.

There are 22 million veterans living in America. And right now, a lot of them are struggling. They're battling post-traumatic stress, or PTSD. And sadly, almost 20 vets are taking their lives every day because of it, 20. Clearly, we aren't serving our vets as well as they serve us. So I'm heading down to Kille, Texas, right outside of Fort Hood. To meet a group of Iraq vets who suffer from PTSD, they've found relief from their trauma

through a unique form of therapy, professional wrestling. This is too dangerous, you guys. How about a book club? This is safer than more? That is fair. I will give you that. This is Erica Matz and she's a field producer on the show.

Hey Jordan, Jordan. Hi. How you doing? The best. Right, the best. Yes. We're excited to talk about this episode. And unfortunately, I have to introduce writers, Steve, all team. Already. I just looked right into the camera? No, it's a podcast. You don't have to look at me okay we pretend like there's a natural conversation that we have all right this is for the

listeners at home Steve don't look at the cameras sorry pretend like this is that the cameras aren't even here like it's a podcast pretend like it's a podcast. How do we find the story? How do we find the story? Do you remember? Yes I do remember I was working at Vice and sometimes I would le? to? th. the. the. the. the. the the. the the. the the. th. to th. to the the. to to to to the the. to to the the. to. to. to. to. to. to. to. Yes. to. to. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. the. the. the..... the.................... the.. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the sometimes I would lean towards veteran stories, military stories so it was sort of on my radar. Also I want to paint the picture not to interrupt you. No please. But you said you worked at Vice and we'd love to make fun of you for. We love Vice. But you are earnestly wearing a marijuana leaf necklace and a really cool their the really cool jacket. Everything is cool. Where do you get all tho the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their. their. their. to their. their. their. their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I their. I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I th. I te. I te. I te. I te. te. I te. their. their. their. their. I their. I their. I their. I want. I their. I to get all those cool things? They hand them out at the door advice. You come in and you're like, right?

Yeah, they give it to you. And then when you leave you have to like ceremoniously take off everything. Take tattoo, get a tattoo. Yeah, tato removal. Leave these rings. Leave the official vice bonged. rolling papers. That's not a bit, right? Nope. No, they don't want to cool that smoke. No, they want it hot. That's very real. They want your lungs to burn. Now I came across this story in a Rolling Stone article and it was about really more of a profile on Eddie. Eddie is one of our characters in the show who you

will recognize him. He's the guy that wears a lot of clown makeup. And they were doing a profile on him and his approach to dealing with PTSD. And the article had unpacked that he's part of this Valhalla Club, which is the three-man wrestling team that we end up following. And what jumped out at me, not just because it was a story of PTSD and veterans, and how the writer, and how the community that showed up to watch Eddie and the rest of the Valhalla Club and how they reacted to that. Because to me, I'm like, okay, I can understand maybe how it helps an individual person who's participating in the wrestling because you're doing an action.

But I found it really interesting that the community was getting something out of it by having a performance and a reason to go out and gather again when the last time a group of vets usually get together can be sort of a sad thing. It can be like, usually reunions and veteran communities sometimes revolve around, you know, if you're losing someone to suicide or something like that. Like, the homecomings aren't always so happy when they get back together. So here you had this wrestling medium that's like fun and engaging. It has has to do with war, but it brought together this community that I think needs

to see each other in more of a face-to-face basis because they just don't once they come home. Personally, I know it's sometimes hard for a civilian to feel like they can relate to veterans. And we often talk about this idea of thank thinkinkinkinkink, thank, thank, tha, thi, than, thi, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, I, their, their, their, their, their, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I thi, I thi, I thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, thoooo, thoo, thoo, thoo, thoo, thi, tho, thi, thi, th about like this idea of thank you for your service feels like an empty gesture and so I feel like a lot of people sometimes are like I'm grateful I put you on a pedestal but I don't know how to interact with you and I think we had like a visceral feeling even in the room of like oh I get this like I hate to say it but like I did theater I did performance I get what somebody can get out of this how it can be the the the the th somebody can get out of this, how it can be therapeutic, how it can be also just fun in a way to build a community.

And then we see these pictures start hearing about these veterans who are also living experiences through this type of performance in a way that were like, oh, I think this might be a way in which we can also tell their story and chart sort of the story of how somebody who hasn't served who is not a vetter in veteran point and dispel some of those assumptions you might have about veterans and the way in which they interact and kind of meet in this funny middle ground which happens to be a ring where everybody wears makeup. Mr. Studtacular. Is it a family name? Nope, that's just, it's all character, that's all gimmick. I wanted to be something I know I'm not, instead of just a soldier that I was,

diving from rockets, crap like that. You've almost had to rewrite your story and in that, that becomes therapeutic. Definitely. Yeah. We all have things that trigger us and stuff like that, but we still go out there and we try. try. th and the try.... I the to to the stuff that bothers me on a day-to-day basis, the survivor's guilt, the other, the anniversaries of my friends dying. The whole transformation of the character is getting away from those demons.

The only other demon you have is yourself. You're wrestling yourself up there. Yeah. Happened to me once. My mom walked in the bathroom when I was wrestling myself. Rule number one of wrestling to the door. It's such a wild scene. It was like, I don't know, what were you expecting when we went to Allen? I'm not a big wrestling fan. I didn't grow up really as a world wrestling federation kind of guy. I went to one event a few years ago and thought it was wild and fun.

But when we walked in, you guys purposely kept me from meeting them before the cameras started rolling, I remember. I'm out in the car and Eric and Steve are down there in Texas, kind of setting up their practice facility. They're practicing and they're like, oh let's make sure the lighting's all good so we walk out in, but Jordan you wait out in the car. Steve comes out just killing time and Steve comes out, and you remember it was something that you're like, they're really wrestling in there. Like, oh, it's awfully real in there.

I go and I walk in and you immediately feel that. We knew that these guys weren't on television, but that they're legitimate wrestlers. I didn't know what a wrestling circuit in Texas felt like. You walk in immediately and see them diving on one another, flipping, attacking, and it's fucking real. You go in then, you're like, you don't know what to expect. Is this like, what is this going to look like? And it just looked so, I mean, the athleticism, which is apparent when you watch it, their

level of skill, their storytelling ability within this. And certainly with our background, you know, in sort sort, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their,, and certainly with our background, you know, in improv and in sort of like having a host of techniques that are available to you. It's a common language that you all know, but then within the moment being able to weave around that and take what the person's giving you and expand on it. It was, it felt very close to home. Here's something I remember from that first meeting we had with them and it's it's not in the edit of the final piece anymore but we do this fun training and they're really gregarious fun guys but I'm nervous and I don't want to get hurt but I also don't quite know how to interact as a wrestler or do this right and so they teach me how to chop, they teach me how to fall, they teach me how to hit, we do some calisthenics, and then they pull out this wooden stick, and it's like,

there's a way in which you can hit somebody and I'll react to it, but you really hit them with this big wooden stick. And Eddie assures me it, it'll be okay, to hit, and he the hit the hit the hit as I I I I I I I I I I they. And he thue. And he thue. And he thue it. And he th. And he th. And he th. And he th. And he th. And he th. And he th. And he th. And he th. And he th. And he thin, and I'm like, ahaha, ha, and he turns and he's bleeding. And I call bullshit. He comes over. He is really bleeding. I try to bleeding. They stick with it. They stick with it.

I'm like, yeah, this is very funny, but I'm not going to fall for your bad acting. I know bad is. Oklahoma. Oklahoma. Oh. Oh. Oh. You hit him in the head. Bro. Oh. Really? Okay.

As someone who's a theater major, I understand a little bit about fake blood. Is it like, fake blood in combat? That's a cut. That's a cut. Oh, God. You're this new guy and they're trying to razze me. I think this is the theatrics of it. That is a cut. That is a cut.

This is a kindo stick. I didn't get, I hit you here. I hit you here. No, you totally missed. Do you totally. feel bad for this because you're hurt. You asked me to hit you with a stick. Right. Why would you feel bad? He's got a very hitable face. It's okay I'm not mad, I promise. I know. I just wish you would stop doing this bit because I'm starting to feel bad about it. We're messing with you. Yeah. Was it real blood? Yeah. I really took a razor blade and ding my head with it. What? What? That's not a joke? Do you get it? They think it's hilarious. So, yeah. I mean, Eddie's the one who's bleeding and had a scar on his head for the next three

days. Yeah, you can see the scar on his head in the next three days. Yeah, he cut himself. He has a razor blade in his hand and he cuts himself. And he was like, we had a conference call where they told us that the technique could make him. And they were so proud of it. But it is, it's like, who's this joke really on? You cut yourself. They're like, it's easy. You can do it with a razor blade and then blood come.

This isn't a magic trick. You cut yourself. They can try to to the. They can't took care of me, let it be clear. The slaps are real, the falls are real. It all hurt is what I quickly realized. One of the things with pro-asslers is chops. It's just open hand, slap.

Ah, that does fucking hurt. Oh! It does. It hurts. It's just a chop. I don't care what you call it. It's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it, it, it's, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it. th. th. th. th. th. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It, it, it, it. It's, it. It's, it. It's, it. It's, it. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. th. thi. thi. It hurts. It's a thing where I call the police. It's an assault. Well, it's fine. If you've known Jordan for a really long time, you know the range of noises that he makes and his four acting moves. And so, and my one accent. Yeah. And so when you hear him really get hurt, you know he really got hurt. I'm like, oh, that's a noise. That's a noise. That's hurt. the the they. they. they. they. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that's. th. that's. that's that's that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's. that's a that's. that's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's. the the the the the the th. It's a th. It's a th. It's a that's a that's a that's a that's a that's a noise I haven't heard. He's not having fun. There's comedic high pitch and there's earnest high pitch. Yeah, that's the truth. That was that's earnest high pitch. Yes, it is. Just because you know that it's coming and how it's coming doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. Yeah. That's a thing that it's like, they they sort of break it down and they're like, th. They're sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort they're sort. They're sort sort. They're sort sort. They're sort sort. They're sort sort sort sort sort. They're sort sort sort sort they're they're sort sort sort sort they're they're they're sort sort they're they're they're they're they're sort, they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're sort. They's sort. They's sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. They're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. they're sort. how it works. We're gonna be slapping your chest, and this is how the hand is gonna look,

but it's still slapping your chest, like it still hurts. Yeah, there's almost an assumption like, oh, so that means you're going to fake doing that. Right. The same thing was the way they're like, oh, we're gonna teach they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're they're te.. te. te. te. te. te. It's te. It's te. te. It's te. their to to te. to their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to te. to to te. to to te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. tea. tea. tea. tea. tea. te. tea. te. te. te into like a bed of balloons. Okay. It's so fast I don't want to do it that fast. Is there a slow version? You could take your time. Control your body. Yeah, that's exactly what? That was close. That was close. You didn't still reach it. That's not good. But no it's just just a made of wood very hard floor that I kept falling and knocking the

wind out of me, it hurt significantly. And they're like, well, you're not falling right. I'm like, there's, you can walk me through the technique, but you're still falling at an aggressive rate. I'm also very tall. And so just velocity-wise, I'm hitting that ground, boom, boom, and it hurts. And in the end, they're kind of like, you just got to get used to it. I got used to watching you fall very quickly.

You did. You seemed to really take to it. A lot of takes. Because the camera kept moving, and so we had It was cathartic, the whole staff got together and watched. Is that what happens? Yes, I can see it, yes. We just all took our favorite punched moments from Jordan just watching. There's plenty, plenty to choose from.

We were immediately taken by what we were watching, and to make it about me and our experience of like connecting with veterans to walk in there and not have to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their their their their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, and their, and their, and their, their, and their, and their, and their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to to to to toe.e.eanananananjoomea, toe.e.e.e. Wea, toe.e. And, toe.e. And, their, their veterans to walk in there and not have to think about saying something incorrect, not knowing their experience overseas, and immediately being in awe of their expertise and want to be a part of the thing that they're creating. There was a legitimate bond that we all formed. We were talking even before we started taping here about how you're still getting emails from the guys regularly. I am as well and I think

like you bonded. And Erica you've you've done stories at vice about the military. Yes. What was it about this? What did you what was new for you on this? Yeah so when I covered stories about the military advice it was a lot of veteran-based stories and what always draws me towards veterans is that it is so much about this community and that the community of veterans helping each other is ultimately who they rely on when they come back home. Also this I just really like exploring the the subject of masculinity and expression when it comes to this very hyper-masculine group of people so for me like

the wrestling thing was so interesting because it really teeters on this expression of masculinity in tiny little shorts. But what they're dealing with is like emotion and trauma and how men, in particular, I mean, of course, we have female combat veterans, et cetera, but the majority of the military being men. They aren't going to go to traditional therapy. I mean some will, but here's another option for these guys who express themselves. And just reading Eddie in that article talking about that struggle to connect with people is ultimately what

the darkness kind of leads when you come home is just not feeling like you can pick up the phone and call anyone or turn to your wife or husband or whoever at the bar and just talk because you feel like you have such dark things to say and that people don't want to hear it. And you don't want to live in darkness all the time. So having something like wrestling is like light to go to, but you're still dealing with, this isn't going to say you suddenly get over the tough stuff that, you know, actually happen to you. This is just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just just saying saying saying saying saying saying saying saying saying saying saying that you can just just just just just just just just just just saying saying saying that you can just just just saying that you can just that you can that you stuff that, you know, actually happened to you. This is just saying that you can celebrate and be fun and also have a different kind of like escape that isn't always like rooted in such like sadness with PTSD.

Not to say it's not sad, but. Well, and Eddie talked a lot about that, and I think we got to see it. I think that was remarkable about our time with them is that these guys really wore their hearts on their sleeves and kind of gave us access to their families, their emotions. Yon welcomed us over to his house for breakfast one morning. I had breakfast with his daughter. I mean he was there too. Don't make it sound like he settled up so you'd have breakfast with his daughter. That's very true. Let me be clear. Let me be clear. That would be weird. I theeeeclue. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. Y thea thea. Y thea. Y thea. Y thea. Yiiiiii. Yi. Yi. Yi. Yi the thea thoomomome thoome thoome thoom. Y thoom. Y th. Y th. Y th. Y th. Y th. Y th. Y th. Y the the the th. Y the the the the their their their their their their the. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Yi. Yi. Yi. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Yea. Y. Y was saying, Yon and his daughter. Come to my house, have breakfast with my daughter. They were very open.

They were very accommodating. I had breakfast with Yon and Yon's daughter. Together. The three of us had breakfast. Bacon was made. I put the blame on Yon for poor bacon making. Is this how you cook bacon in Texas? Who was on bacon duty?

She was. What was it like coming home? It was very difficult, and I was very standoffish, and had anger issues and stuff like that. And I was just overwhelmed, and I wasn't processing stuff as I should. My dad, he just looked really out of it, and he seemed like, he just seemed kind of spaced, everything, and he looked like devastated. What don't civilians get about the transition that Bettshav been from overseas coming back home?

There isn't like a single right answer. I try to tell somebody what was like to have a car bomb go off not too far from you. If you haven't been through a similar thing, it's really hard to fully grasp why that changes somebody on a permanent level. And we literally go out into his garage where he, he one has a letter press machine where he makes t-shirts, Valhalla t-shirts there that you can buy online and should, and he also has some paraphernalia and things that he brought back from war. And has pictures of an explosion of a truck that was I believe a hundred yards away from him and he talks about like experiencing these things and coming back and not have anybody you can connect with there. It is a process we'd talked to Eddie we went to a stand-up show with Eddie who not only is he he's

incredible at wrestling he's he's incredible at martial arts, he's incredible at wrestling, he also loves the thrill of stand-up comedy. And so we went to an open mic night with Eddie and then went and got drinks afterwards. And he's very open about, like, this is a consistent struggle, that he's dealing with day in and day out.

And he talks about, like, it's not about fixing this, it's about moving in the right direction. It is hard trying to find humor in stories about PTSD. How do you deal with something like that? You put it in the fuck it box, and you deal with it when you can. That's it. For me, my PTSD came mostly from Survivor Guild. All my friends died where I couldn't save them. I was a combat medic, my job was to save people

and make sure that my friends came home in one piece. Your job isn't to save everybody. Your job is to save the people you care about, right? Your job is to save the people you can't save. Rationally, that makes sense. However, PTSD is no respecter of rationality or whatever. all the bad shit that happened to you in your life as jumping into a 20-foot pool when you can't swim. Stinking all the way to the bottom and standing there. Counting 25 and swimming back to the top.

Because why? If you calm down and you relax, you will get back to the top and you will continue on what you have to do. Where are you in that pool? Are you swimming up? I'm trying. I'm trying. Right now? I'm wondering where the fucking other Jack and Coke is at. Well, that's something we can fix. I see the moment at the bar with him,

and he's, he carries a lot with him. He is somebody who, he was a combat medic, and he talks about this desire to save everybody. And that never leaves him. That it's always with him, and he thinks about it, he wears it today. And so that's a lot for anybody who's just going into a stand-up comedy club, which that's something I can relate to. But when I walked into stand-up comedy clubs or improv theaters, I'm not bringing that baggage

as well. And when he does that, he brings that that thiiiiiiiii. And thi. And thi. We's theaters. I'm not bringing that baggage as well. And when he does that, he brings that baggage in there. And he doesn't have anybody else who has that shared experience to be able to take a little bit of that load off. And he's open about that. He's not bitter about it, but he's struggling with it. I think that's where when we had those experiences, and then were able to see when they performed with an audience who loved, their, their, their, and their, and then, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, thi, to thea, to to to thea, to thea, to to their, their, to their, their, their, their, their, to see when they performed with an audience who loved them, who were also vets, who came there because they knew they were experiencing something. Like you could see this catharsis and you could see like what felt like if not progress towards betterment, at least like a respite from some of that pain. They also went back to something that they did before they entered the service. So wrestling, they did grow up and it was something to them. They left, went to the military, and then when they came back and all three of them,

when they were struggling, they thought, okay, this was something that I liked before, I'll try it again, and it just, it transformed the meaning because of what they experienced. So I think also it's for people to recognize that maybe something that you use you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you that you, these are guys who went and they have traditional roots of addressing these things. They can go and they can get medicated, which, as we say, works for people, and that's great. It's a miracle that these medications are out there and make a difference, right? They don't work for everybody. So you can be struggling with this trauma, talk therapy, and that works for a lot of people, and that's fantastic, and so glad that it's there. But it doesn't work for everybody, and it's like, these are three guys who are like, I'm not giving up.

I'm going to try another weird, outside the box thing that is going to hopefully lift this cloud for me, and it does. So my question is, this is this is this our this our this our this our this our this our this our this our this our thihea. thi. thi. thi. thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I thi. I's our thi. I's our thi. I's our thr-a. I's thrown. I's our thr-a thr-a thr-a thr-a thr-a thr-a thr-a thr-a thr-a thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thi. I's thr. I's thr. I's thr. I'm thr. I'm thrownee. I'm throwneeeeatee. I'm throwneeeean. I'm throwneeeeean. I'm throooooooooooooooooe. I'm thr from it, then why was there a portion where I had to put on a skimpy outfit, put my life on the line and get body slammed by a sweaty man? Because that's how I get over my trauma, right? By giving me torturing you. So I remember I think we walked out knowing I wanted to get in the ring and to do something. The fun part, again I talked with them a little bit about it. It's like this is performative. This is you play you play a bad guy, you play a heel. They often talked about Eddie would talk about what it was like to play a heel and how he

loved an audience, chanting at him, being angry with him. I talked to him about I was on the opposition as a host who was an asshole, who was a heel and and people thought you thought you thou tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho that that that that that that that that the that that the that that that that the the that the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the that. that, that, that, that, that, the. toda. toda. today was was today was today was like. today was liked. tooe. tooe. to the. thes and that was part of the joy. And I think like that was really fun. We could find a way I could be a heel. What became the challenge that we had is, how do we give that heal? What is the thing these guys are fighting against? And so that was sort of the creation. As we went out there, we decided it was this Mr. Red Tapepepapapapapapapapap. and that if they could find catharsis in body slamming one evil, the bad guy isn't necessarily

the VA. There's problems with the VA. The bad guy isn't pills. Pills don't work for everybody. They do work for some. Like, it's more complicated than that the problem that we can attack is the fact that the fact that there's shit that's getting attention and help. And it felt like red tape was symbolic in that sense. And so that we went on the road and knew I was going to put on what I thought were shorts

and then get into a ring and be body slams, only to find out that day that I would be wearing a skin-tight skivies that were more revealing than I would want them to be. Meet Valhalla Club's arch-nemoises. You love me, you love me. The man who loves long wait lines, bad doctors, and not helping vets. It's Mr. Red Tape. That's right, that's Mr. Red Tape. That's right, that's Mr. Red Tape. You vet, you have paperwork to do.

I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to take this paperwork and shove it down your throat. Okay, no, you're not going to do that. No, no. We start the episode, kind of asking the question, how do you connect with veterans? And we throw out this idea of thank th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you th you thi-tha thi-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-tha-tipe-tape-tape-tape-tape-tape-tape-tape-s, thi-s, thi-s, thi-s, thi-s, thi-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-s, thi-s, thi-s, thi-s, tha-s. ta-s. tapease-s. tapease-s. tapease-sa-sa-sa-sa-sa-sa-sa-sa-sa-s. ta-s. ta- of asking the question, how do you connect with veterans? And we throw out this idea of thank you for your service feels empty. And I think Eddie Yan and Bryson spoke to that. I don't think they disregard somebody making the gesture or saying, thank you for your service. And people might be very earnest in saying something like that.

I know I am when I do. But it felt like the thing they wanted next or responded most to was like more of a personal connection, which honestly, you can take away the speedos, you can take away the costumes, you can take away the uniform. And all this stuff does boil down to like, have a beer with that person, connect with them, see if they're hurting and how you can help in some kind of way. Well, when you look at hard facts on paper, you have 22 vets who take their lives every day. PTSD is a real thing. We have 18.5 million veterans living in America, and yet the disparity is that civilians and

veterans just don't interact that often. But these are real issues. And th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, see, see, thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, see thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and how thi, and how thi, and how thi, and how thi, and how th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. And thi, thi. And thi, thi, thi. And thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. theei. thiii. And thei. And, thi. thi. thi. thi. And, th just don't interact that often. But these are real issues. And that's really, those are sad stats on paper. And if you have this interesting medium with the show and you can use comedy and write into it and have tools that can help tell that story in a digestible way, I mean, I think that that's one of the biggest takeaways from this kind of show. But with this shoot shoot shoot shoot shoot with this shoot in general, it is. And you know what's great about this particular show? No politics about something that can be a very politicized thing like when it comes to the military. Like

this is just about humans and how do we connect and how do we get over trauma. And by the way, those guys, which I found fascinating, like everything is so politically polarized, especially coming off that show that we worked on before the opposition and just the atmosphere. Those guys won't go there, which I think is so fascinating, right? Because I feel like, I mean, I'm the kind of person who's like, yeah, but which way do? theylink, come on. Like, you know, in Texas and everything. And they're just, they're kind of apolitical. I mean, sure they have whatever they do, whatever, whatever, whatever, wh wh whatever, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, they, and, and, they, and, they, they, and, they, they, I, I, I, I, I th. th. th. th. th. thi, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I thi, I thi, I th. I th. I th. I they, I'm they, I they, I th. I th. I th. I, I th. I, I, I th. I, I th. I th. I, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th, I th. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I th. I'm th. I'm th. I'm so, I'm so, I'm so, I'm so, I'm th. I'm thin, I'm thin, I th. thin, I th. thin, I th. thin, I th. thin, I th. thi. I thi. I at all, which is so refreshing. Awesome.

Well, guys, thank you for taking that little trip down memory line. Here to expand the conversation around Valhalla Club and to talk some veterans' issues, Sebastian Younger. I'm very excited. He's the author of Tribe, which is available wherever books are sold. He's also an Academy Award-nominated Documentarian. Thanks for coming in. My pleasure. Documentarian. Is that how you'd like to be called?

Co-director? Yeah, I mean, it was for the film Restrepo. It was a documentary about a platoon of American soldiers and an outpost in Eastern Afghanistan. And so my colleague Tim Hetherington and I shot all the video. We were out there together. together. to to the. to the. to. they. to. to. they. they. to. to. th. th. th. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thioleckhinea. tho-in. thi. theathea. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. Is. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. It. t. It. t t t t t t t toda. toda. toda. toda. t toda. toda. t t toda. t. toda. toda. today. today. t t We were out there together off and on for a year. And we co-directed it, co-produced and co-financed it. We did absolutely everything. I want to talk about veterans who serve. And you make a point that like, you've covered a lot of military stories, that when people come back home, sometimes what is toxic is what they are reentering, right? Reentering a country that either they don't recognize because of the way in which it's vilifying one another. And the trauma that some of these people

who have served for our country are facing is the trauma that coming back to a country that maybe doesn't live up to those ideals. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I mean, I think there's a whole a whole a whole a whole a whole a whole a whole a whole a whole a whole a whole sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort sort the their their their their their their their political level, in the military, whether you're in a support unit or not, and keep in mind only about 10% of the military is actually engaged in any combat,

with 90% or support mostly. But it doesn't matter. Combat intensifies things, but even in a support unit, you're in a platoon of 30 people, you're probably sleeping shoulder told. told to their tasks and missions tooes, tooes, too, too, too, too, too, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to, and to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the too, the too, to to to to to to to to people, taking meals together, doing tasks and missions together is an extremely cohesive unit. That's how we evolved as a species. I mean, anthropologists will tell you that for most of human history, we lived in groups of about that size, we lived in groups of about that size, we are wired to connect and affiliate and dedicate ourselves to groups of about that size. And then you come back to modern America, which because of our affluence, most people live in single-family homes or in single-family apartments, right?

I mean, which is great, right? There's a privacy, there's a liberty in that, but there's also a separation from your community. A lot of people grew up, like I grew up, not even knowing their neighbors, certainly not depending on them. That's new in human history. Now this is a society that has astronomical levels of suicide, depression, anxiety, all these disorders of disconnection, right? There's a tragically highest veteran suicide rate here. The soldier's suicide rate in combat is not particularly high.

It's quite low, right? It's when people come back, when they leave combat, and they leave the support of their unit that suddenly they're at a loss. And I think that alienation affects veterans, and I think it affects all of us. And then on top of that, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, as a veteran, you basically come back to hear your parents fighting in the bedroom. And you're you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you the the their, you their, you their, you their, you their, you their their their their their thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi in this country, very powerful people, basically screaming

at each other and insulting each other. You know, I never saw that behavior out of Restrepo. I mean, there was Democrats or Republicans, black, white, rich, you know, whatever. It was everything out there. Not everybody loved each other, but no one treated each other with that kind of contempt and lack of respect. And I think that must be, I imagine, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their their their their too, too, their toe.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e.e. their their their for some of those people, it's quite hard to come home too. We found some veterans who were in Texas who were dealing with PTSD.

They'd come back. They're having a really hard time connecting with their families, feeling very alienated. And what they found as a way, their waro tovets, they found companionship in a professional wrestling.......... natural instinct. The Hells Angels started that way. I mean, they're World War II vets. They came back and they're alienated and they started a motorcycle, you know,

wound up being a criminal motorcycle gang. But I think the criminality is probably part of the appeal. Like, wow, we're back on the front line. You know, and they thing, that's a stopgap measure, right? That will get you through the crisis of returning. But ultimately, the problem is all of us are struggling. It's not just veterans. Everyone's struggling to feel like they're a part of the society. If they weren't, the suicide rate wouldn't be so damn high.

The depression rate, the anxiety rate. I mean everything's through the roof, right? So obviously everyone's struggling. I was on an interview once and someone said, God, why are the vet so messed up? When soldiers come back, why they're so messed up, and I was like, wait a minute. I mean this is where the lightball went on for me about tribe. I was literally in this interview. I was like, wait a minute. Maybe they're seeing how messed up we are. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe that's what PTSD is. And the more I thought about it, the more it seemed like it kind of worked that way and that in my book Tribe is about that investigation to see if that maybe is a way of thinking about it. We're talking about tribes, what are we essentially talking about? Humans do not survive alone in nature. they doved in a th in a th in a th in a th in th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their thi, their their thi, their thi, thi, thi, their thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, throoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooomom. In fact, we thrive in groups. We're social primates, right? So if you don't feel closely connected to a group,

you are in some sense in danger. So one of the problems of modern society, of affluent society is that people go through their whole lives, not experiencing, needing a group of people to get by. And on human terms, that doesn't theuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu thoom thoom thoom tho tho thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu thu-a-a, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi, thi. thi. tho-a-a, tho-a, tho-a, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. they they they they they they they they're they're they're they're they're they're theeanananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananan, toe people to get by. And on human terms, that doesn't feel good. It feels alienating and depressing and scary. And so as a result, we know that as affluence goes up in a society, the suicide rate goes up. Depression goes up. Depression goes up. The traunda goes up. the pressure theaurass people. The tpauil thaea. thiiiiiiii, th is to to to from trauma in isolation. So you can traumatize a rat, right? And

if you put that rat in a cage by itself, it never recovers. They traumatized rats by putting them in a cage with a cat and saving it before the cat ta kills the rat. You put that rat in a cage by itself it doesn't recover. You put that rat in a cage with other rats within a week its behavior is indistinguishable from the untramatized rats. So which kind of rat do you think we are? I feel like we're a pretty traumatized rat. Yeah. Yeah, and we're obviously not healing. Right. And we're not healing. Right. I mean, listen, recovery from trauma is a group process. thrombized in groups. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. thi, thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi. thi, thi. thi, thi, thi, the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi. thate. thate. thra. thra. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. ta. tra. ta. thra. their thra. thea. group process. Humans are traumatized in groups, right? And they recover in groups in this society. People are traumatized in groups in war, but they have to recover on their own. And that doesn't work very well.

Yeah, I feel like some of the vets that I've got to visit with, they have been galvanized by the trauma that they experience, but the bonds the bonds the bonds their travel along with them. A little thing that I noticed, I forever have seen veterans wearing hats that say where they served, what part of the military they were part of, what ship they were on or what have you. And to be honest, it was always kind of background noise to me. I always noticed it, it was a hat, there's a sense of pride there. I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thathe. I thathea, I thathea thathea thathea thathea thathea thathea thathea the the the the the never the the their their their their thathea thathea thathea thathea than than th. I've th. I've th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I that, I that, I that, I that, I the the theanananannna theananna theanananna that's theanna theanna theanna theananna theananananan As I'm traveling with veterans, I became much more aware of that, and it was such a signifier to walk into a bar and to see an event immediately be like, oh, Marine, we have something in common. And the connections they made as strangers because they had not only a shared experience, but occasionally that shared trauma there, you saw community building happening so much faster than it would in any other situation

that I think those are those nice moments of hope that I could say. Well, those shared experiences are what make people, make people feel that they belong in a group together. I mean, if you're in the same company with the guy, you know, your brother's for life, right? And you've got to say, the's a lifelong brotherhood you will never separate. And it's an incredibly profound thing. And I've got to say, if you have the good luck to experience that as a person in the military or otherwise, but that kind of connection, and it's taken away from you, you live in a kind

of grief over its loss for the rest of your life. It's really, really hard. Because that's interesting. So we have, now, now, now, now, now, I I I I I I I I I I I I that, that I that I that I that I that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's interesting. So we have, now I'm somebody, I'm a civilian, I never fought. I have weak bones. I can barely stand on my two feet. I broke my foot standing. So you wouldn't want me to protect. But I want to help. I think, I talked a lot with the veterans that I've met with, about there's a disconnect between civilians and vets who come home. I feel like I want to thank people for their service. I put people on pedestals and I don't interact with them. I don't, I feel like I don't know the experiences they've been through and therefore there's already a gap between the way in which I can connect with veterans sometimes. But I'm curious this idea. I think you're on to something

with like if we are looking to survive this trauma as a unit or together how do civilians create a better environment to help veterans as they're coming back? Well I don't think there is a veteran-specific solution. Like if it's a veteran-specific solution you're continuing to wall veterans off from the wider society which if you do heal veterans the wider unheeled society is not going to be a very appealing place. They'll stay isolated. I think to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. the th. th. thiii. thi. thi. thi, thi. thi's thi's thi's thi's thi's thi. thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. toe. t. te's c. ttttttttttttogether. together, together, together, ttogether, together, tttogether, ttogether, society is not going to be a very appealing place. They'll stay isolated. I think the real solution, the long-term solution, is society-wide.

Like if we can turn our society into something that's a little bit more communal and connected, a little less vicious in its politics, a little bit more collaborative at the neighborhood level. I think if we can do that, everyone's going to do a little bit better. I'm guessing suicide and depression will go down, drug abuse will go, I mean all those things I think will go down. And along with that, it will be something is a little bit more reminiscent for veterans of the community that they just left, which is the community of each other overseas. And so in the long term, can we help FETS, yeah, we can put a bandage on the problem, but I think really, if you want to really heal this, heal them, heal us, it's the same thing. I think we have to address society's problems. Do we have to fix society first?

Well, I think I don't... That's a big fix. Depressing. Well, it is, except, understand, that problems that we're having. human beings and we still want something good. Right? I mean our instincts are good. We're suffering because what we've created is isn't healthy for us. So take that suffering as a message that we need to hear, we can do anything we want, right? We can create any society we want. Sebastian, it's been great talking to you. You too. Tribe, it's a great book. Honestly, everyone our staff read it, we're inspired by it. I gave it the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their the their their their their their their, th. S. S. S. S. S. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Sea. Sea. Se. Sea. Sea. Se. Se, trin. Se, tribe. Se, tribe. Se, tribea. Se, tribea. Se, tribea. Se, tribea. Se, trie. S. S. S. Se. S. S. S. S. Se. Se. S. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. Se. S. S. S. S. Sout, tribea. S. I's is is. S. I's is. S. I's is. S. I's is. Sibe. Sibe. Sibe. Sibe. S. S. S. staff read it were inspired by it. I gave it to my father-in-law.

We rarely share books. We shared this book. Go check out Tribe. It's on Bookstains Everyone. If you like listening to this podcast, you're going to like watching it even more. So go check out Klepper. It's on all of your devices, including your television. Thank you for listening.