The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Maggie Haberman - The Ultimate Guide to Donald J. Trump

Episode Date: October 9, 2022

Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Maggie Haberman discusses “Confidence Man,” her comprehensive book about the making of Donald Trump, the former president’s obsession with media attention, and the intensifying clash between Trump and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Ditch the other hiring sites and let zip recruiter find what you're looking for, the needle in the haystack. Four out of five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality to to the quality the quality the quality the quality the quality the quality the quality to to to the to the to to to the to to the to to to the to to to to to to the to to to to to to to to to to to to tip. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their. tip. tip. tip. tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip tip employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day Try it for free at this exclusive web address zip recruiter dot com slash zip zip recruder the smartest way to hire You're listening to comedy central Maggie Havenman welcome to the day show. Thanks for having me. You have written a book that many have? You're the the today show. Thanks for having me. You have written a book that. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. You're th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. th. th. th. the the. the. try try try try try try try try try try try try try try try. try th. th. th.man, welcome to the Daily Show. Thanks for having me. You have written a book that many have called the ultimate guide to Donald J. Trump, because it feels like you have an understanding of him that few, never mind journalists, few human

beings do. And what's interesting is, every time I've seen you're reporting on him, every time I've seen him comment on you and the conversations you have with each other and the interviews that he grants you, even though he seems to hate you, but then he likes you. It seems a little bit like the relationship Hannibal had with Clarice. I can't tell if you have a mutual admiration for each other, a fascination as a journalist. explain to me why he the the the they, they, they, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, thoomomo, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and what thi, and what thi, and what's, and what's, and what's thi, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thin, and thi's thooooooooooooooooooooooo's, and to me why he keeps speaking to you and then afterwards says to you, why would you write the things that he said to you?

First of all, thank you and thank you for having me. A couple of things. Look, he's a subject who I cover, and I have covered a number of politicians over the last 26 years. I covered Hillary Blenberg. I covered I covered Rudy Giuliani, who in many ways was a proto-Trump, at least in certain aspects of his behavior, and now is very much like Trump and has become, is more similar to him over time. Trump needs the media in a way that's unlike any other politician I've ever seen. He craves attention, and I explore this in the book. He just constantly wants to hold the media's gaze,

and he wants to see if he can sell you on a version of himself, and he wants to get what he would call a good story. Literally, those would be the words, a good story. And then you write about him accurately, and he says that it's unfair. So there's that's the dynamic you're talking about. But he basically, you know, he's obsessed with the New York Times. That is a lot of what this is about. You know, he is uniquely focused on the paper, and I'm just the person who has covered him more often than not. It really feels like he is somebody who has frozen in time,

because everything he's obsessed with, seems to be something that was popular, You know, so it'll be the New York Times and then he'll complain about certain magazines but not others and then S&L he'll have a He has a certain pension for but then not other shows. It's like it's an interesting world that he exists in That isn't current, but but seems current to him and in the in the book you talk about how He lives minutes to minute when the rest of us move almost from 24 hours to 24 hours, but it doesn't seem like he's plagued as much by the things we think he is as he actually is. What do we misunderstand about Trump? I actually think you understand really well based on everything you just said.

I think there is a, there is a preserved and amber quality to him. You just described that about how all of his cultural touchstones are in the 1980s, which is when he was reaching his height. He loves to talk about how many times he's on the cover of Time magazine. You know, National News Magazine's Weeklys are not in their heyday right now, and yet he talks about it all the time. The celebrities he talks about are from the 1980s. It's when he was rising to prominence. And I agree with you that I th I th I th I th I th I th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thin th thin th thin thin thin thin thin thin thin thi think think thi thi thi thi thi thi, tho tho-a tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho th. th. th. tho the the thoe the the thoe. the thoe. thoe. the thoe. thoe. thoe. thoe. thoe. thoe. thoe. thooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooe. thaence, and I agree with you that I think there is a degree to which he has just stuck there. And he's also stuck there culturally. He's stuck there in terms of racial politics.

He has stuck there in terms of New York City's machine boss politics from that era. And he exported so much of that onto Washington and onto the Republican Party. The other thing that I think that people don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't don't tho people don't tho people don't tho people don't tho people don't tho tho the people don't the people don't the people don't the the the the the the the the thry to show this and explore this, is his fascination with violence and how much violence informs what he thinks of strength. And then strength in terms informs what he thinks is a strong boss or a strong leader. So you will hear him praise a local machine party boss like the former Brooklyn Democratic Party head as ruling with an iron fist. He'll use the same words about Xi Jinping, the president of China, who's an authoritarian. It's all contextless and kind of flat and the same. And I think people miss that yes, he's

playing to crowds, yes, he will say whatever he has to say to survive small increments of time, but ultimately the scenarios that exist for him ki the same. But what makes him scarier in my reading of this book is people often see Donald Trump as somebody who is setting the trends but as as you read through this book and as you understand the man you come to realize that he is often times a victim of the trends and then he plays to them so he'll say something to his crowd that he believes the crowd won't vibe with it and so then he th he th he'll th he'll th he'll th he'll th he'll the the the the th he'll the th he'll the th he'll the th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi is thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. is thi. is thi. is thi. is is is is thi. is is is is is is is th. is is is is th. is is th. th. He's is thi. He's is thi. He's thi. He's thi. He's thi. I I thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to to toee. to the thi. to. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi's thi's thi. thi. thi plays to them. So he'll say something to his crowd that he believes. The crowd won't vibe with it. And so then he'll change what he believes in

to keep going with the crowd, which makes him even scary. Because if you think about authoritarian leaders or any others out there who go, I rule with an iron fist, their fist is their fist, but Donald Trump says, When you look at that and when you see that man, isn't that a scarier place to be in? And the people around him, do they notice that? Or do they think that he's controlling his own narrative? It depends on how close they get to him, and it depends, frankly, on how willing they are to parrot

the preferred version of himself that he presents. So there's two versions of himself. And he gets that in certain quarters of the conservative media and from some of his aids. And then there's the portrait of him as competent strongman. This book is neither one of those, and I think explains exactly who he is. There are people around him who recognize that he is often playing to the room, the crowd. He is taking his cues from Fox News, and then it became this kind of circular feeding cycle with Fox News where they would say something and he would pick it up and amplify it and then they would cover it more.

And that is often how he makes decisions and I explore how whether that was about not wanting a mask mandate during COVID or whether he was attacking football players who were taking a knee in protest of police brutality, or when he was attacking football players who were taking a knee in protest of police brutality or when he was at CPAC in 2011 and he saw that attacking Ron Paul was playing well to the crowd. It's always in response to how's it playing. He exists in an interesting space in the world because, you know, Donald Trump is the man, but then you talk about in the book, there's also Donald Trump the idea, and you give us truly one of the most

comprehensive insights into how the man was forged. Many people around the world don't know that he was considered a joke in many New York circles, in business, in entertainment, whatever field it was. Many people don't realize, and you talk about this in the book, how the apprentice was in some ways a sort of joke idea of like, oh, this guy will tell you how to run your business because he was so terrible. But he was so captivating on screen.

He was so magnetic. He knew how to create entertainment. And then it became the tail wagging the dog. People saw the show, they went, he must be successful. And then because of that, his success started rising, and he went from the doldrums of nothingness back to being a semi-successful person. So then I wonder, when you look at Donald Trump, when you think of him through the lens of entertainment and politics,

do you think Donald's broken America or do you think he's exposed how America has broken? I think he has exposed aspects of how America has broken and fueled and exploited that for his own gain. I think that the partisan divide that exists in this country started in the 1990s, but it really, really accelerated in the 1990s. And then there were a series of national traumas that voters reacted to. There was an impeachment of Bill Clinton. There was a terrorist attacks in the U.S. There were wars that followed. There was an election in 2000, settled by the Supreme Court.

You know, there was the fiscal crisis looking for something that they thought they were finding in him. But his ethos that he came to define in New York in that period you're talking about in the 1980s really was hate as a civic good. Hate should be a civic good. He would talk about that. He would talk about in the context of racial violence in New York that he would want to hate people. And that is what he was thia. That is what he exported. So he didn't create it, but he fueled it,

and he has benefited from it. And there is a tremendous trickle-down effect. He has an interesting, you know, paradoxical vibe to him at times. Because on the one hand, and maybe this plays to what you're saying, or it's an example of it, he plays to the room. You know, I've interviewed Republicans, at the very very very very the very the very thapapap the very beginning would say like, no, I've spoken to him, he's fine, he just says that to the crowd and then they themselves, months later, will be like, I'm shocked, I didn't think he would do this, I didn't think he would go this way. You have said in the book, and you say from the beginning, you have said from the beginning, this man is the most consistent person, ironically. he's going to defend, he's going to deny, he's going to shift the blame, he's going to get angry, he'll perform the anger, you talk about all these things.

Why do journalists now not understand this? Why do journalists still get to thriked or trapped into happen? I think in fairness to my colleagues, I think for the most part people realize who Donald Trump is at this point. I think that when he became president, people, particularly in the Washington press corps, many of whom did not follow the campaign in 2016, did not know who he was, the person that they were dealing with, how effective he is at getting media around his finger to do what he wanted. I think people generally do understand that now. I think you have seen far fewer interviews from Maralago over the course of the last 18 months despite his desire to hold the media's gaze.

Now, whether that changes when he's a nominee, potentially, or a candidate, almost certainly, I think that's an open question, and we're going to see how that goes. One of the more the more the more the more the more the more the more the more the more the more the more the more the more ofofofofofofofofofofofofofofof of ofof of ofofofofofof of of. ofii. of. ofoan. of is of is thoan. thi. thi. th. th. of of of. to to th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi.. th.. th.. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thananananananananananananananananan. than. tooan. tooananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananananaaa. toa. t. ta. that goes. One of the more fascinating parts of the book that I truly enjoy is somebody who's been immersed in this world for a long time is the brewing clash between Donald Trump and Ronda Sanctus. Rondosan is somebody who, in my opinion, has slowly started adopting elements of Trump in order to win over Trump but then doesn't transform himself into Trump so that he seems

like a reasonable choice. I mean like like like the the th thi thi thi thi thi th. I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, like thi, like thi, like to to thi. I'm to to to toe. I toe. I toe. I'm toe. I'm toe. I'm toe. I toe. I's, toe. I's, toe. I's, toe. I's, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, th. I'm th. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thi. I'm thruui. I'm thrui. I'm thi. I'm throwne. I'm throwne. I'm toe. I Trump so that he seems like a reasonable choice. I mean, like, I watch him even talking in like a briefing and he started using hands like Trump. He starts doing little moves like Trump. He starts speaking in Kurt sentences like Trump, very good, very good. Doesn't change his voice, but he dresses in the frumpy suits like Trump. He has like a, no really. I think he's emulated enough of Trump to to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. I, th. th. I, th. I, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to, to, th. to, to, thi. thi, th. to, to, to th. He's, th. He's, th. He's, th. He's, th. He's, th. He's, th. He's th. He's th. He's th. He's th. He's th. He's th. He's th. He's th. He's th. He's t. He, t. He, t. He, t. He. He. He. He's t. He's t. He's t. He's tot. He's tote. He's tote. tote. to tot tote. to try. tote. to try. try. He's started try. He's started. He's started. He Trump to take Trump's people, but then not so much of Trump to, you know, dissuade the middle voters who want somebody who's reasonable. And it seems like Donald Trump is starting to realize that Ron DeSantis is stealing his vibe, and he doesn't like it. No, he's not happy about it. And he thinks that he made Ron DeSantas. And he thinks that he made thian, he's thus, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the middle, the the the thi, the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. toed. toed, toed, to-a'u. toed. toed. toed. thi. theaugh, thi, thi. he was responsible for DeSantis. You know I said Ron you're at 3% and so you know when Ron asked for my endorsement he told me that he you know he thought he

would beat anybody very easily. I asked if he had talked to DeSantis about running against him or DeSantis running against him. He said that hadn't come up but it's clearly on his mind and he's been privately and he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he's he he he he he he he he he th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th. th th th th th th th. th. th. th th th. th th. th th th th th th th th-in thr-in thr-in thr-in thr-in thrown thrown thrown thrown throwne thrown throwne hea hea thrown hea hea' thrown he he he he he thrown often what he does when he's trashes him about his his weight well he's been trashing him privately to people fat phony whiny so Trump has been saying that Rhonda Sanctus is fat right okay okay um it's it's it's interesting because you also talk about in the book why you think and how you think Trump sees the presidency and what it brings him. He's in a different position to what he was in before. Before it seemed like it was, you know, a joyride. It seemed like another push for publicity, maybe to get more money for the apprentice or

whatever. But now it seems like there are more stakes. He may want the politics, but he's also worried about the politics, he's also, th also, th. Do you then think, knowing him the way you do and having the interviews that you've had with them and the people around him, do you think that then, in a weird way, Ron DeSantis, is now the biggest threat to Trump, because if Ronda Sanctus manages to take the Republican Party away from Trump, tru-o'-trumah from Trump, tru-s the-publican trupe, trump, trump, tru. th. th. thru. threat to Donald Trump is that someone will stop him in the Republican Party. Now a number of donors and a number of conservatives are hopeful DeSantis is it. We are just seeing DeSantis on a national stage in a way we haven't before it with the hurricane response and so we'll see how that goes.

He has at a couple of off moments, not in the last day, but he has had a couple of off moments and handling it. Everyone looks very good until they're on. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A. A... A..................................................................................... the.. the. the the the the the the the the one thing Trump is aware of, is that the difference that he brought to running for president over other candidates was he had been in the media spotlight for decades. And it is just something that is completely different. Now, the party is different in overall, how it deals with the national media. Republicans are very aggressive against national reporters at this point. DeSantis has obviously co-opted that from Trump to. DeSantis does not need or crave national attention in the media the way Trump does.

Trump is definitely aware DeSantis is a threat. I think it is too soon to say what that looks like. Before I let you go, because I mean it's an amazing book we could talk for hours about it. Thank you. Trump is a force unlike any other in American and maybe even world politics. He's inspired so many other countries. When I travel, people will have these strange opinions about him. I've never seen anything like it where other countries have opinions about Trump as if they vote for him as well, people on the ground. Genuinely, you don't really see that.

And it feels like he has turned American politics forever. When you speak to him, does he have an acknowledgment of the volatility that he's dealing with, or does he only think of it through the lens of Trump and entertainment and getting to the end goal? Or is there even a part of him that goes, oh, if I do this incorrectly, I could blow up the country as a whole? I don't think there's a ton of the introspection that you just described. I think there's, I think in general he looks at everything in terms of how it impacts him.

And even when he is told that something is going bad, even if he's conscious of it, he will be aware that something is problematic for others, but for whatever 3D chess in his head, and it isn't literally 3D chess, but how he's gaming this out, he won't allow himself to acknowledge that, because that would be a sign of weakness, or that would be giving somebody else a chit. And so even if that's a consideration, you're never gonna hear him say that. You will hear him say, you know,

he threw himself the other day. He volunteered himself to try to solve the war between Russia and Ukraine to be a peacemaker. This is a classic Donald Trump move, which is I'm going to throw myself into this national situation that doesn't involve me at all. He was offering himself up as Reagan's arms negotiator with the Soviet Union in the early 1980s. Well, he actually did that. He literally was offering himself up this way. And so, now, obviously he was not taken up on toe toe up toe up toe up toe up toe up toe-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a- early 1980s. Well, he actually did that. He literally was offering himself up this way. And so, now, obviously he was not taken up on it, but it's a little different when it's a former president doing this. And it's just in his head, the context just doesn't change.

The moves are all the same. Every part of the book is interesting. You have notes from Donald him, you know, say this is what I'm writing, do you have any comment or anything? Some of them are like him just going like fake news, he scribbled and he sent you. Others are him. There were several that said fake news. Some of my favorites were the ones where he's like, oh this is great I never thought of it like this. It's like there's like weird, there's a fascinating story about Rudy Giuliani taking the biggest dump in a private plane I've ever heard from Trump. It's a book that covers everything and honestly, I hope a lot of people read it before the next election comes because I think it gives a lot of much-needed insight.

Maggie, thank you so much for joining me on the show. Appreciate you. Confidence man is out now wherever you get to books, Maggie Haberman. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Ears Edition. Subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and stream full episodes any time on Paramount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.