The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Masha Gessen - Examining Russia's Autocracy in "The Future Is History"

Episode Date: January 15, 2022

"The Future Is History" author Masha Gessen discusses Vladimir Putin's autocratic rule in Russia. Originally aired July 2017. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Please welcome, Masher Gesson. I cannot stop the interview without commenting on your shirts. That is an interesting motif you have on there. Welcome to the show. Thank you. I cannot stop the interview without commenting on your shirts. That is an interesting motif you have on there.

This, this actually is a shirt from the 2011-2012 protests in Russia. What does that shirt mean? Putin must not wear a princess crown? Yes. Russians against tiaras. It's Putin should not be a monarch. Right. We should have a liberal democracy. That didn't work so well. Let's let's talk about that. Let's get straight into that idea.

Putin should not be a monarch. Do you think in many ways Putin has managed to cement his power as, in effect, a monarch of Russia? Absolutely. There are no elections. There are no elections for Congress, the Russian equivalent of a Congress. And there's a presidential election, but no one can get on the ballot without Putin's personal permission,

and no one can campaign. Which seems fair, I mean, you know. He thinks he's the best person for the job. He genuinely does. He is someone who for a long time has felt, though, that his standing in the world. He's someone who has felt for a long time that that where it should be in the world. Would you argue that that's all he wants from America and from from the EU and all of the powerful nations

out there? You know the kind of leader that he is basically an autocrat, I don't think there's such a thing as all he wants. He very much wants to be treated as an equal partner by the United the United the United the United the United the United the United the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the theats. thii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. to be thi. thi. thi. thi. taken seriously. He very much wants to be treated as an equal partner by the United States. But he will always want more. I mean, it's in the nature of that kind of leadership to want to expand. And it's also in the, he needs to constantly sort of create the illusion of movement in order to be able to mobilize the population. It's interesting that you say the illusion of movements, because you've written extensively about Vladimir Putin and understanding authoritarianism, looking at what it comes with and what it entails.

When you look at Vladimir Putin and you look at Donald Trump, are they the same person? Are they similar? Or are they aspects of what they're doing that reminds one of the other? They're not actually that similar, right? I mean, emotionally, they're completely different. Trump is raw emotion and Putin is, he prides himself of being so controlled, right? Now I just picture like Trump crying watching a movie. I'm emotional. Not exactly what I mean, but you know, they come from

different histories and everything about them is different, but there's certain things that I think are characteristic of autocrats that after 20 years of covering Putin, I've sort of trained my eyes to see that, right? It's like I have optics. Well, like for Trump and Putin, one amazing similarity is the way they lie, right? Which most politicians who sometimes lie will want you to come around to their point of view. They want to get you to believe something. Right. These guys lie to assert power.

The more absurd what they say is, the more power they have asserted. It's basically saying, you know, I will say whatever I want whenever I want to. I don't understand that. Is that them basically having the power to define reality? Is that what it is? I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is. I is, I is, I the the the their their their their their, I their, I their, I thii, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi... I. I, thi. I, thi. I, thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi.a, thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thiiiiiiii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that. Is that them basically having the power to define reality? Is that what it is? I truly don't understand how they see that as a powerful thing because you would assume everyone's looking at them going, but you're lying. Well, it's two things, actually. One is having the power to define reality, right? It's not, I'm not just president of the country, I'm king of reality. Right? But there there, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's th. It's th. thi. thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, I thi, thi, I thi, thi, thi. thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. You th. You, th. You, th. You, th. You, th. You, th. You, th. You th. You, th. th. th. th. th. thi. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. thr. theeea. thea. thi. tactic. I mean, it's like the kid who stole your lunchbox and you're saying, you stole my lunchbox and he's holding it, he says, no, I didn't take your lunchbox. And he has the power. That's interesting.

When you look at Putin and Trump's relationship, the media has been focusing on it, you cannot escape it on the news in the US. Do you feel that this is the right right amount amount amount amount amount the right, the right, thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, thi, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, thi, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, and, to, and, to, th. And, th. And, th. And, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the the thi, the thi, the thi, the to.e.e. the the together, together, the together, thi.e. together, thi. together, thea. thea, thea, todthis is the right amount of attention that should be paid towards it, or is there a different way to look at it as someone who has been an expert at what the Russians want or what's happening with Russia, American relations? How do you think it should be handled as a topic as an idea? It's important, obviously, and Russian interference in the election is important, but I would argue that actually what's out in the open is much more important than whatever an investigation has unearthed, at least at this point, right?

I mean, we saw Donald Trump say openly that he wants Russia to hack Hillary Clinton's email. Yes. Right? And so I don't quite understand the excitement when, nearly a year later, it turns out that Don, Jr. said in private, in confidence, the exact same thing thinininininininin thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thininininininin thing thin thin thin thin thin thi thi thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, thi, tho, th. th. th. th. thi, th. thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. th. to th. th. to th. th. to th. to to th. to to to to thi. to thi. But, but too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too private in confidence the exact same thing his dad said in public for all the world to hear. But wouldn't you wouldn't wouldn't some people say yeah but that's different he said it but then he claimed that he was being sarcastic whereas

with Don Jr. it looked like this was an action these people were willing to collude with the Russians. Right but I think it's important to react to what's out in the open. What's out in the open is Trump's admiration for Putin. What's out in the open and Trump's explicit understanding that political power is what Putin does, right? It's controlling a country. It's governing by decree. It's basically, again, establishing an autocracy. There are many people who say Putin and tr LGBTQ community in his country, but Donald Trump has said that he would be an ally to the very same community. Right, so I actually wrote a piece a year ago in

which I argued that that if Trump became president, he would likely reverse progress in LGBTQ rights. And it was a weird thing to do because when I was writing it, I thought, logically I know this to be true. Emotionally, I couldn't believe it. I was right, even as I wrote it, I thought, well, it's impossible. It's like, it seems that we have made so much progress. But there's no way it can be reversed.

Plus, Trump had said, you know, he had draped himself literally in the rainbow flag. Right. And yet it was the most recent social change. It was the most, it was the fastest social change. But I think even more than that, and I think this is where, what he did, a year to the day after I wrote that article, with tweeting that transgender people weren't going to be allowed to serve in the military. What he did was something that's emotionally actually goes to the heart of Trumpism, which is very anti-modern.

It's this promise of return to this imaginary past that is so simple, that everybody's role is assigned at birth. And you know, you're born to be a carpenter or a farmer and you will live in the same order for the rest of your life and you're born man or woman and it can never change. Nothing about you can change. That, I mean, it's an almost mystical kind of past, but it's the kind of past that he promised us. He ran on the promise of an imaginary past. And it emotionally sort of saying to Americans, look, you're not going to have to face the possibility

of inventing yourself. Right. Right. Is very important for him. So if we're to look at Putin and Trump and their relationship as it stands. I believe the Senate just move the bill forward now to the President's desk, the sanctions on Russia. That seems like it's going to be a major point for Trump. He's going to have to openly say, yes, I am completely with the United States or I'm

going to deny this, I'm going to veto this bill and not support the sanctions. Do we know anything about their relationship beyond what we're told in public? Is there anything that we should be looking for as someone who's familiar with the Russians and as someone who's seeing Donald Trump at the same time? So again, I mean I think that we should be looking on what's out in the open, right? We should really, at all costs, try to avoid the kind of conspiracy thinkikikikikikikiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. tho, the, the, the, the, the the thean, thean, thean, the thean, the thean, thean, thean, to to to to to to to to to to avoid the kind of conspiracy thinking that a leader like Trump, who is himself a conspiracy theorist, produces, right? You want to mirror it and look for the hidden secret instead of just staring at the truth that that stares you in the face.

But frankly, I don't think that Putin is as interested in lifting sanctions as he claims to be. There's a particular set of sanctions that Russians are very interested in lifting. And those are the sanctions imposed by the Magnitsky Act. Yes. Right? And that's when they talk about adoption, they actually talk about those sanctions. Those sanctions are important because they target people personally, they have really felt the pain. When the country at large feels

the pain, that actually is not, it doesn't necessarily hurt Putin and in a way it's a mobilizing tool for him because Russia has been sort of gathered around Putin who has said that Russia is at war with America, has been saying that for basically the last four or five years. Wow. It's a scary story and a shirt that you're wearing makes it lights at the same time. Thank you so much for joining us. I appreciate your mind. The future is yesterday will be available on Permanent today.

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