The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Nikole Hannah-Jones on Reframing the Legacy of Slavery with the 1619 Project

Episode Date: May 23, 2021

From February 2020, New York Times Magazine reporter Nikole Hannah-Jones discusses the 1619 Project and how it explores the ways America is still suffering from its foundation of slavery. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look,

starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Daily Show. Thank you. And congratulations on creating and working with a group of people on a project that has gone on to become more than just a moment, but rather a rethinking of America's history. Let's start with the why behind this. I mean, history seems like it has been written.

So why try and write it again? Well, history has been written, but it's been written to tell us a certain story. And the 1619 project is trying to reframe that story. And it's really about the ongoing legacy of slavery, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, and, th, and, th, and, th, and, and, th, th, and, th, thi, thi, and, thi, thi, thi, and, thi, and, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiii, to to to to thiiiiii, thi, they's, thi, they, thi, the thi, th reframe that story. And it's really about the ongoing legacy of slavery. We've been taught that slavery was a long time ago, get over it, which is something nearly every black person in this country hears at some point. And the 1619 project is really saying

that slavery was so foundational to America and its institutions, that we are still thrown the many ways that we still are. It's interesting that you've you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you you that you that you have you have you have you have you have you have you have you have you have you have you have you've that you've that you've that you've that you've the many ways that we still are. It's interesting that you've chosen the year 1619 because many people would say, but this was before America existed. You know, why not start at America's founding and then not include the years before when this was a colony and Virginia and Britain were involved? So why do you choose that point and why do you argue more importantly that on the four hundredth anniversary of this fateful moment, you say on the four, the, th, th,. Yes, so it's funny because this year is also the 400th anniversary of the Mayflower.

Yet no one argues that we shouldn't learn about the Mayflower because that predates the United States. We know that that was an important moment. I would argue that the White Lion, So no, America hadn't get formed, but Virginia was the first colony. Our institutions would come out of the 13 colonies, our legal system, our cultural system, our political system, and certainly the anti-black racism that we still struggle with is born at that moment. When you start off in this magazine, there's a really beautiful passage in the beginning where you talk about your personal journey and how you struggled with your relationship with America as a country. And it's a really beautiful tale you tell about growing up, you know, on the land

where so many people had died and toiled as enslaved people. You also talk about how your father was a proud American and how you didn't understand how he could be proud to be American when America seemed to be against him in spite of everything that he did. Yes. How did you reconcile that? Or did working through this project change your view on how to be American or how not to be American? Yeah, absolutely working on the project changed my perspective on my father.

I opened the piece talking about how my dad was born, to to to be, to be, to to be, to, th, the th, th, th, th, th, the th, th, th, th, the th, tho, the the tho, the tho, the the the the the the the tho, the the, the the the the the the the the, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, how, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the project changed my perspective on my father. I opened the piece talking about how my dad, who was born in apartheid Mississippi, flew this flag in our front yard on this giant flag pole and he was one of the only black people I knew who flew a flag in their yard and I was deeply embarrassed by that. But as I started researching for this project and my essay is really about how black Americans have had this pivotal role of actually turning the United States into a democracy. I got that he understood something that I didn't, that no one has a right to take away our citizenship and our rights to think of ourselves as American, because so much of what

black people have done is what has built this very country that we get to live in today. What do you mean specifically when you say that? Because that was an idea that I don't think I had fully thought about before I read this magazine was the concept that America's foundation was a lie in that it was a group of promises that weren't fulfilled, you know, to both people of color and to women in many respects. And what you argue in this magazine is that's that's that's, that's, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiolk, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, is, thi, thi, thi, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, tho, is tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is what is thi, is what is thi, thi, throi, that, that, that, that, that's, that's, that's, that's, thoooi, thoooo. And what you argue in this magazine is that black people basically have the job of making it a truth. What did you mean by that? Absolutely.

So when Thomas Jefferson writes those famous and English words, we hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. He owns 130 human beings at that thi. thii. 130 human beings at that time, including some of his own family members. And he understands that one fifth of the population will enjoy none of those rights and liberties. So we are founded on a hypocrisy on a paradox. But black people read those words and said, oh, we're going to believe that these words are true and apply to us and fight.

Again and again, we see them fighting at the revolution. The first person to die for this country was a black, thapapapapapapapapapapapap –, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the first person to die for this country was a black man named Crispus Addix who wasn't free. We see that happening with the abolitionist movement largely led by black Americans. We see that happening at the Civil War with the Reconstruction Amendments, and of course the Civil Rights Movement, which brings the franchise to large segments of America for the first time. So we said we were founded as a democratic republic, but most Americans could not vote at the time of the Constitution. But thanks largely to black resistance and freedom struggles, we are as close to a multiracial

democracy as we've ever been. It's a really beautiful story in that it's told not through the lens of anger, but rather through the lens of collecting stories. It's the fact that's a little angry. A little angry? Oh it it it it it it it it it it it it is that it is that it is that it is that it is that it is that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's that it's th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. that's that's that's that's that's thanks thanks thanks thanks. thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks thanks th it's the fact that it's a little angry. A little angry? Oh, it doesn't, it doesn't feel like anger so much as it feels like a truth. Yeah. What, what it has sparked, though, is a fight over history and how the history is told.

You know, once this magazine came out, there werethat America sought its independence from Britain was not because they wanted to maintain slavery. It was because of taxation without representation. It wasn't the primary cause. Why do you think there's such a resistance to slavery being one of the primary causes of America breaking away from Britain? Because we need to believe as a country that our founding was pure, that yes, know, we had some troubles, including holding 500,000 people in bondage, but that largely we were a nation founded to be exceptional in these majestic ideas and that our founders, though complicated men were men who were righteous.

But when you argue that our founders were, many of them, very hypocritical, and that you can't just simply overlook the fact that slavery was a motivation in some of the colonies, just taxation was a motivation, but also the ability to keep making a lot of money off of human bondage. That is very unsettling, not just to the average American, but to historians who have seen their job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job job their their their their their their their their their their their their the but to historians who have seen their job as protecting that founding narrative.

The difference is, you know, when you're black in this country, you don't have the luxury of pretending that that history didn't exist. And what that history has done is really marginalized our story, when really the story of black people and slavery is central to the United States. When you worked through this project, there are new pieces of information you discover, there are stories that you find were never told that need to be told. And I know you can't write about everything, but I was interested in whether or not you

would think that other countries who are involved in slavery get off easier than the United States because the one thing they did differently to America as we know it is that they sort of outsource slavery. You know, if you think about whether it was the Americas or Spain or many of these other colonial nations, their slaves were in the countries and then they left those countries and were like we're done with slavery, but they also don't have to deal with the people they enslaved, whereas America has an interesting relationship where you have to deal with the're still here. So not to feel sorry for America, but do you think there's also a reckoning that should happen in this way in Europe maybe? Oh, for sure.

All the colonial powers need to have a reckoning. And reckoning also needs to happen on the continent of Africa. But I think the fundamental difference, there's two. Yes, slavery occurred in the bounds of the country that would become America. But also of those colonial powers, America is the only country that was founded on the idea of individual rights and liberty. That was founded on the idea of God-given, inalienable rights.

None of those other European, I mean, these were monarchies. They weren't founded on the idea that every person had equal rights, but we were. So that hypocrisy really matters. And of course, I argue that that hypocrisy is why we have struggled so much to get over and address the issue of slavery, because it forces us to acknowledge this lie at our founding. Before you go, one of the main questions many people may have, and you see this unfortunately all too often is people saying,

why do you have to keep trudging this up? Can't we just move on? It's been 400 years now. Can't we just move on? What do you hope would be sparked by the conversations that come from a magazine that delves into slavery like this? What do you want someone who sits at home and says, they go, Nicole, I'm white, and I had nothing to do with this, and I don't thua tho, and I don't tho, and I don't tho, and I don't tho, and I don't tho, and I tho, and I tho, and I tho, I tho, I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th.. th. th. th. the, the, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thooooooooooooooo, to to to to to to to to to to to want me to do, what would you hope people take away? That's a great question. Let me just say, for the record, nobody wants to get over slavery more than black folks.

It's not. It's not to our benefit, right? It's not to our benefit, right? The fact that our nation can't get over slavery is not benefited black people for a single day. But that's the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem the problem. We've never dealt with the harm that was done. I'm 43 years old and my father was born into a Mississippi where black people couldn't vote, black people couldn't use public facilities.

That was all perfectly legal. We're not far removed from this past at all. And there's never been any effort to redress that harm. So what I hope that people will take from the magazine. Every single story in the magazine starts with America today and shows how these things about American life that you think are unrelated to slavery actually are. And I hope by confronting that truth, maybe we can finally start to repair the harm that was done and then finally start to live up to be the country of our ideals. It's a fantastic job. Fantastic magazine. Really wonderful having you on the show. Thank you so much. To learn more about this beautiful, amazing story, go to New York Times. Dot com slash 1619. That's NYTimes.com slash 1619. Nicole Hannah Jones, everybody.

The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central. Watch full episodes and videos at the Daily Show.com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it.

This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look, starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts.