The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Panel Discussion on Radical Police Reform

Episode Date: June 10, 2020

Patrisse Cullors, Josie Duffy Rice, Sam Sinyangwe, Mychal Denzel Smith and Alex S. Vitale join Trevor for a panel on movements to radically reimagine policing in the U.S. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at, that's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News,

listen to 60 Minutes, a second look on Apple podcasts starting September 17. Hey, everybody, I'm Trevor Noah. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Social Distancing Show. On tonight's episode, we wanted to talk about the only conversation every American is having right now. What do we want to do about the police? Do you abolish them?

Do you defund them? Do you make them smoke the whole cotton of tear gas so that they learn their lesson? Well, tonight, instead of guessing or using some random account on Twitter to try and figure it out out we're going to be speaking to actual organizers and some of the actual people who have been behind the defund the police and abolish the police movements. And these people have been in it from the very beginning. So if you're confused, or if you don't agree, or if you just want to try and figure out what the hell is going on. Well, tonight's episode is for you. Specifically you. Yeah, you, Brian, I see you. So let's do it.

Welcome to the Daily Social Distancing Show. From Trevor's couch in New York City to your couch somewhere in the world. This is the Daily Social Distancing Show with Trevor Noa. the ears. All right, before we get into the conversation that's happening among activists and everyone in America, let's catch up with the ongoing conversation in Washington. Because while the movement in the streets has been building up steam, Democrats in

Washington have been scrambling for a way to respond. And yesterday, I think they figured it out. Democratic lawmakers are receiving criticism after a silent tribute to George Floyd in the US Congress yesterday. Some were not a fan of the colorful Kente cloth scarf draped around their necks, saying they turned the traditional African textile into a political prop. Okay, I understand the symbolic gesture of kneeling to remember George Floyd. What I don't understand is why they had to dress like extras from coming to America, too. In fact, a lot of people were confused about why the Democrats wore African cloth to talk

about George Floyd and police brutality. It felt like they were trying too hard. But I'm going to be honest, I was just glad that they managed to talk Nancy Pelosi down from the original Alfred she had planned. It was a step too far. And look, however much you want to blame Nancy Pelosi and the Democrats for doing this, we also have to assign some of the blame to the African store owner who knew full well that no good can come from one person buying 50 kente cloths. No, Nancy, you have to trust me, eh?

The more Kentie cloth you wear, the less offensive it becomes. Okay, bye-bye. Now, to be fair, the Democrats weren't just kneeling and wearing Kentie cloth. They also unveiled police reform legislation that would make some pretty big changes. It would ban no knock warrants in drug cases to try and avoid situations like the one that got Brianna Taylor killed while she was sleeping in her own bed. It would make chokeholds a civil rights violation to try and prevent police from taking another Eric Garner's life. And one of the biggest measures in this legislation would make it easier to prosecute police

who use excessive force. As opposed to now, where it's almost impossible to convict a police police police police police police police police police police police police police police police police police police the police the police the police the police, the police, to, to, the police, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the the the the the the the the the the to, the the the the the toe, the the the the the the the toe.e. the toe, the toe, toe, toe, toe, to now where it's almost impossible to convict a police officer if they've done something wrong. Like now you need to catch them on video, then have a DA that's willing to prosecute them, then have a jury that actually wants to hold cops accountable. And even if you get all that, you still need to find the cops horcrucks and destroy it, otherwise they just get to go back out on the force. the force. the force. the force. the force. the force, but, but, but, but, the the the the the the the the the their, but, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thiiiiii.e, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi get to go back out on the force. But while Democrats are proposing legislation to reform the police, unsurprisingly, most Republicans in Congress don't seem to be on board. And as for President Trump, he's doubling down hard on his support for the police. President Trump held a meeting with police union officials and local and state law enforcement

officials yesterday at the White House. He vowed there will be no dismantling of American policing. There won't be defunding. There won't be a dismantling of our police. And there's not going to be any disbanding of our police. Our police have been letting us live in peace. And we want to make sure we don't have any bad actors in there. And sometimes you'll see some horrible things like we witnessed recently but 99 I say 99.9 but let's go with 99% of them are great

great people. Yes 99% of all police are great people and I guess it's just unlucky that protesters happen to keep meeting with the bad 1% over and over and over again. I guess those guys work a lot of overtime. And you know, I always find it amazing how Trump manages to always see the good in the groups that he likes. He says that the police are 99% great people. Charlottesville, he said there were people that were good on both sides. He said the armed protesters in Michigan, the Same people who stormed the Statehouse were very good people who were just frustrated. Like clearly, if you're on Trump's good side, he will find a way

to interpret anything you do in the best way possible. Like if Trump likes you, he could walk in on you in bed with his wife and he'd probably be like, my wife and my best friend, taking a nap together, good people. Now look, let's be clear. I'm not saying that all cops are bad, but the problems with the police are much more widespread than Trump is acknowledging. Because every single time, every single time a police department gets audited or investigated, the results that come back time and time again show deep rot and systemic issues often from the top.

It's like turning on a black light in a hotel room. There's no way you're only going to find one stain. And unlike Mitt Romney, who was marching in Washington over the weekend saying Black Lives Matter, Trump has never expressed support for the Black Lives Matter. And yesterday his press secretary claimed that Trump doesn't need to say Black Lives Matter because his support with black people is overwhelming. Kelly, does he agree in general the way that Mitt Romney stated over the weekend he does with the core message of Black Lives Matter?

Yeah, Mitt Romney can say three words outside on Pennsylvania Avenue, but I would note this that President Trump won 8% of the black vote, Mitt Romney won 2% of the black vote. the black vote. Okay, firstly, that's bullshit. Romney didn't get 2% of the black vote. He got 6% while running against the only black president ever. But either way, this is just sad. I can't even believe this is a thing. You're gonna brag about getting 8% of the black vote? Really? 8% out of 100?

Bragging about getting 8% of the black vote is like some loser bragging to his friend. Like, you know how Suzy th Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus Sus that that that that that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that, that's that's that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's tho-I that's tho' that's vote is like some loser bragging to his friend like, you know how Susie said she just sees you as a friend? Well she told me she sees me as an older brother. So Trump's position on the protesters around him defending the police, around black lives matter, it seems pretty clear. But just in case you were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, well this morning, the President of the United States tweeted this. President Trump is questioning the motives of the 75-year-old activist shoved to the ground by Buffalo police officers during a protest last Friday.

The president tweeted, Martin Gagino could be an antifa provocateur and said, I watched. He fell harder than was pushed. Could be a setup. Kugino remains in serious but stable condition at the hospital. This is one of the more alarming tweets we have ever seen from President Trump. It appears to be based on a news clip from the One America News Network, which is a network for conspiracy theory cooks. Gugino is a long-time peace activist and volunteer for Catholic worker,

which is a movement dedicated to justice and peace. Yeah. Trump is so desperate to defend the police that instead of admitting that maybe they used excessive force and that none of them helped a person who was bleeding out on the ground, he turns around and blames the old man from that video for being an Antifa provocateur who busted his head open on purpose? And I mean, I can't believe that I actually have to say, but like that is some bat shit crazy theory. Let me tell you something.

If someone came up to me with a plan that involved me busting my head open on the sidewalk, I would ask them to come up with a better plan. I mean, how do you look at that video? See that old man and think that he's an Antifa provocateur. You think that old man is causing chaos. Who sees that? Like, I feel like Trump is the kind of person who watched the movie up, and he thinks it's a story about an elderly terrorist who hijacks a balloon house.

But I guess with this tweet and everything else that Trump has said and done over the past couple of weeks. Trump has clearly picked which side he is on in this debate. And, I mean, forget about 8% of the black vote. If this is Trump's attitude towards reforming the police, well, there's no kente cloth in the world big enough to make up for it. Coming up, we'll be having a discussion with leading experts and activists about fixing America's police problem. So stick around. We'll be right back. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it.

This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling? But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a Second Look, starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts.

Welcome back to the Daily Social Distancing Show. You know, there's so much discussion out there right now about how to address America's problem of police brutality. Do you reform the police? Do you defund the police? Do you abolish the police. And to help myself and everyone who's watching get a better handle on it, I wanted to talk to some of America's experts and activists about how to reform America's police departments. So, earlier today, I spoke to Patrice Cullors, a co-founder of Black Lives Matter,

Josie Duffy Rice, a journalist and lawyer, Sam Sinjangwe, co-founder of Campaign Zero, Michael Denzel Smith, who is a type media center fellow and author and Alex Vitale, Brooklyn College Professor and author of the end of policing. Hey everybody, welcome to the Daily Social Distancing Show. This is the most people we've spoken to at one point, but thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having us. Thanks. Patrice, I'm going to jump straight in with you as a co-founder of Black Lives Matter. Did you ever think you would see the day when everyone from Amazon to Mitt Romney would to, to, to, the, to, the, to, the, the, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to the, the, the, the the the, the to to to to to the to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to, to, to, to, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their, their, their, tha, the, tho, tho, theylou, thea, theaugh, thea, tho, thea, thoo, tho, theylipe see the day when everyone from Amazon to Mitt Romney

would be proudly proclaiming Black Lives Matter? No, no, I did not see that day coming. I know, I knew that when we started Black Lives Matter, Alicia, Opel, and I, that it would resound deeply with folks across the country, especially black people and black people across the globe. But did I think that some of the largest corporations would have it plastered on their screens? No, not at all.

Do you feel like Black Lives Matter has achieved its purpose now? Or do you think that a lot of people are using Black Lives Matter as a cover to say, hey, we, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. thi, th. thi, thi, th. th. thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. And, th. And, th. And, thei, thei, their, that, thr. We thri. We's, thateauuiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. And, thei. And, tha, tha, that,, or do you think that a lot of people are using Black Lives Matter as a cover to say, hey, we are good. Like, some people say, yes, it's good that people are saying it. Others say it's not enough. As a co-founder, I feel like you're better placed than most people to speak to it. Sure, I think seven years ago, saying Black Lives Matter was incredibly radical. I think that many of us sort of use that term as a marker on where our elected officials stood, and where appointed officials stood. You know, if they said black lives matter, we knew that, okay, we were getting, we were getting into them, but if they

said all lives matter, we knew they were a lost cause. And so seven years later, I think it's not just about black lives matter, It's about what does that actually mean? What do we mean when we say black lies matter, which is why defund the police has become such a huge and resounding call? And I'm really proud of the conversation that we're having as not just a movement, but as American people and people living inside this country.

Right now, I think more than ever before, in America and in around the world, people are asking questions about policing. Are there different ways to police? Can policing be improved? Is policing even essential in the way that we see it every single day? And the reason I've gathered all of you on this panel is because, you know, you're some of the voices who have been most vocal in talking about policing as we see it. You know, everything from the reforms that could be done today to long-term solutions that could change the way we see enforcement of laws in the future.

And so, you know, maybe I'll start with you, Sam, as part of Ait-Can't-Waite. Your organization got a shout out from, you know, former president, Barack Obama. And I think it still is still is is is is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is still is-wait was was initially you know and I think it still is an organization where you went for police reforms that can be done like immediately what explain to me a little bit about what the thinking behind that was yeah so you know we looked at the academic literature there are over 40 years of literature that shows that more restrictive use of force policies can reduce killings by police and police shootings overall, both fatal and non-fatal. We recognize that, you know, these are things that cities can do right now.

theaugh is immediately, a mayor can do it, a police chief can do it as a harm reduction, askshape, thate, we actually move towards transformational change that goes beyond changing use of force policies but includes building alternatives to the police and defunding the police. And I think that ought to be supportive and centred in this moment because that's what can be used to demand. Yeah, it feels like because this movement has been amplified by what's going on online, a lot of people, including myself, have been drawing resources from little snippets here and there, little snippets here and there.

And they've been organizers and activists hosting Zoom calls and, you know, showing people and presentations what they want to do. But it does feel like right now, everyone is left to their own devices to try and figure out what any of these things mean, which invariably means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means means thiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I's, I's, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to left to their own devices to try and figure out what any of these things mean, which invariably means that everybody gets to, you know, I guess make up what the thing means. So you're talking about reforms, Sam, which I think a lot of people understand. If we're talking about defunding, Patrice, we'll go back to you and then we'll start moving around, but what does defunding the police mean? Because for some people, what they hear you're saying is take money away from the police as like a punishment for what they've been doing wrong. Sure, I mean, I really think about it pretty simply, which is what are the things the police

are doing right now that can actually be given over to other groups of people, other workers who've been trained to do that particular thing. So we can just start off with homelessness. Police are at the helm of criminalizing the homeless. We don't need them to be at the helm of criminalizing the homeless. We need mayors and county government to actually show up and put dollars and money towards people who are homeless and giving them housing and shelter. What about people who have mental health crisis? Why are the police first responders? This is not actually a job for a police officer. It's a job for a social worker, a psychiatrist.

All this infrastructure is essentially gutted and communities that I live in and communities around the country. So what ends up happening though is they're replaced with overbloated police budgets. And so you look at Los Angeles where I'm from, which are LAPD-a the police the police the police the police their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi. thi. thi. the. the. the. thi. the. the. I toe. It's toe. It's toe. It's toe. It's toe. It's to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to toe. toe. toe. I toe. I to to toe. I to to to to to to to to to to to to the. I the. the. toe. toe. the. toe. tooooooooesesuuooesuoesu. tooesuoesuoesucooes. tooeseses. toease. toease. toease.'re replaced with overbloated police budgets. And so you look at Los Angeles where I'm from, which our LAPD department actually receives 54% of the city's budget, meaning that everything else that a community needs, they're not receiving, but they are receiving a gun and a badge, and that is deeply unfortunate. Alex, let's switch over to the abolish conversation. As the author of the end of policing and as a professor, you've th, which, which, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th,'s switch over to the abolish conversation.

As the author of the end of policing and as a professor, you've looked into the ways that people can live in a police-free world. Now, I won't lie. My mind struggles to understand the concept, and that's maybe because I've never seen it. You know, sometimes you can't imagine what you've never come across. What does it mean to abolish the police police police police police the police the police the police the police come across. What exactly does the end of policing mean?

What does it mean to abolish the police? Well, it's really more about a process driven by a set of principles than it is some predetermined outcome. I think what we're seeing on the streets today when people say defund the police. Yes, it's about these immediate changes that Patrice is talking about, but it's also about a generation of young people, you know, crying out for a world that isn't driven by racial and class inequalities that are enforced by policing. And the sad truth is, is that that has been the role that police have played in American society and enforcers of systems that produce these inequalities.

And every time we turn a problem over to them, it makes those inequalities worse in the long run. So police abolition is about trying to reduce the burden of policing today while we work to build something better for the future. So let's talk a little bit about that. Michael, maybe you can help me. If there are no police, like are you proposing or do you see a world with no police or is it just a different kind of people

who enforce laws? What does that mean? We say abolish the police, right? There's no mincing of language there. There's nothing that we're trying to trick you on. But the things thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing things things things things things th thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing thing think think, I that's that's nothing that we're trying to trick you on. But the thing I think that where I've come down is just like, who's making the positive argument for the police at this point? And I say that because tell me something right now

that the police are good at, other than who's good at? Like other than doing that, what are they good at? They don't prevent murders. They they they try to figure out who did the murder afterward. And they don't do any of the things that they're sent out to do. Like Patrice is telling us, it's saying, like, we want them to solve homelessness, but what that means, is just get the homeless people out of the street. We want them just means kill the people that are having mental health breakdowns. None of the things that we ask them to do, they're good at. And so then we keep giving them lots and lots of money to do those things. Yeah, I think one of the things that people always say when you start talking about abolishing the police or defunding the police is, what about murder, right? What about the the the their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thape, thi. that, that, thi. their, that, that, that. that. tho, and then, and then, and thi. And, and thi. And, and thi. And, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and then, and their........... And, and their, and their, and their. And, and their. And, and their. And, thi. And, and thi. And, thi. thin. that, that. that. tops. tops. tops. toda. tops. tops. today, today, tops. tha. And, th tha. always say to me, well, what if your kid got kidnapped, as if that's not something I've worried about every single day as a parent,

my, since the day he was born, right? The reality is that the police aren't doing a very good job of handling those situations, right? And that when we picture accountability in this country, we're relying on a violent system to reduce violence, right? We're relying on a cruel system to reduce cruelty and we are funding the back end of social ills instead of the front end of addressing them. So what we see is that like right now it's very hard to imagine a world without police. It's very hard to imagine a world defunding the police because that's all we have to rely on. We are dreaming of a new world. And the ability to imagine a new world is exciting. This is exciting, right? I mean,

it's hard to step out of what we know, but it's an opportunity to think about, if we were designing this from scratch, is this what we would have designed? Is this what the police would have designed? I don't think it is. we would have designed? Is this what the police would have designed? I don't think it is. Stick around, because when we come back, I'll be back with our panel discussing more on how to reform America's police departments. Don't go away. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling?

But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, a second look, starting September 17, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the Daily Social Distancing Show. Earlier today, I spoke with several activists and experts about reforming America's police departments. Here's more of that discussion. I think a lot of the conversation that I've heard from everybody on this panel and from every author that I've read or everyone who's written a study on it says the same thing.

You cannot talk about crime without talking about lack of opportunities, without talking lack of resources, without talking communities that are oppressed or underserved, underserved communities. So my question then becomes what is the process? Because I'll tell you from a personal standpoint, I go, what happens in the interim? We've seen repeatedly in America, police departments that go on on tho-on, tho-on, th-on, th-on, th-on, th-on, th-on, th-in, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thii, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, and th, and th, and th, and th, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, thi, and thi.ei.aui.auiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. ta, thi, the interim? We've seen repeatedly in America police departments that go on ghost lows or go on like basically mini strikes, even if they don't call it a strike. What process do you see unfolding on the way there? Because you're saying to these people, we're getting rid of the police as you know it.

And I mean, police departments hire thousands and thousands of people who earn a living from this. I can see many people who don't have a vested interest in allowing a smooth transition. So, is, you know, have any of you seen any thought that's been put into how that transition would happen? Yeah, you know, there's two ways to think about it. It's manufacturing the political consent for this and part. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And the th. th. th. the th. the th. th. the thi, thi. the thi. the thi, the thi, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the thi, the thi, the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th. And, th. And, the th. And, the the th. And, th. And, thi. And, the, the, the, the. And, the. And, toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. toea. And, the the the. And, the two ways to think about it. It's manufacturing the political consent for this. And part of that story is about neutralizing the power of police unions, who've become a locus for a kind of ideology that says the only way we can solve our problems is with people with guns. And in New York in the last week, over 15 elected officials rejected police endorsements,

and went and took police contributions and gave them away to bail funds. They said we're not going to work with these police unions anymore not because of their pensions but because of their toxic politics. But the other thing is that we have very concrete interventions in mind to deal with very specific things that police do, including shootings and homicides. We have evidence that shows that well-funded and well-run community-based anti-violence initiatives, credible messenger programs, can reduce the violence without driving young people into mass incarceration or labeling them gangbangers or super-preditors.

Let's talk about the racial element then, which is how do you convince large swaths of America's population who are wealthier and white to buy into a policy where they go, we do like the police? Why would they buy into your philosophy? How do you try and move that needle? Because the needle will need to be moved at some point to get to the tipping. Well, it's an interesting question because in many of those communities, they barely have the police, right?

What we're asking them to imagine is a world like the one that they live in. And many of these communities, police are not driving down their streets. They're not seeing the police at every juncture. They're not seeing their sidewalks, right? When their kid gets caught smoking weed, they deal with it at home. The idea of them liking the police is largely theoretical, I think, and not tangible. And it's interesting because I think in many communities where the police are the most present, those are the communities that are calling for less police. But at the same time, respectfully, Jose, I the same the same th the same th th the same th thian the same thian, I the same thian, I the same the same thian, I thian, I thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi is thi is thi is thi is thi is thi is thi is thi, is thi is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. theeeeeeeeeeeee is thi. thi. thi their thi thi is like when you read the stats or if you if you just read through America's history, a lot of the time black leaders and

you know black community leaders, they're the ones who are asking for more police, you know, when people talk about the crime bills back in the day in America and being tough on crime, I've seen the videos of black community saying we need to send in more police, send in as many police as, but we need more police. Is there a disconnect in the black community where, is it like older black conservative people, or I don't even know what it is, like not conservative, as in like Republican Democrat,

but rather just older black people saying, no, we need more police and a different things. I think what the thanks, and a different a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, and a different, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, to, to, to, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thing? I think what James Foreman wrote an incredible book about this a couple of years ago and I think one of the things that he concluded that I think is worth keeping in mind is that historically in us, you know, you think about the late 80s, the early 90s in particular, when black leaders were calling for more police, they were also calling for a lot of other resources. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. We'd like the the police. We'd like the police. We'd like the police. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. We'd like more police. their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th. th. th. th. th. We'd th. We'd that. We're that.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a.a. be able to go to the park. We'd like an after-school program. We'd like jobs, right? And what they got was more police. But they didn't get the other stuff. And so what we're seeing now is that only investing in law enforcement does not create

the kind of change that we want to see. When I worked in the South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South South the South South South the better community that we want to see. When I worked in the South Bronx, they couldn't get their trash picked up for weeks, but you could find a police officer if you walked five steps in either direction. Is that the kind of world anybody wants to live in? I don't, I truly don't think anybody, white, wealthy, poor, black, immigrant, to live in that world. I also. I. I. I. I. I. I. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I also, I to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to. to. to. to. to. to. to to to to to to to to to the the the the th. the the. the. the. the. thease. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. toooooo too too toldease. toldease. toease. toea. to live in that world. I also think to Josie's point and to your question Trevor, there is part of this process is also culture people people having to change and culture changing and that often takes time and I think we're in a moment where we can call for more because when I show up to a

march in Los Angeles where 50,000 people come out, it's not all black people. It's a multi racial movement led by black people, but I see all types of folks holding up Black Lives Matter signs, defund signs, largely a younger generation saying we are tired of the ways in which police have related to black people and we stand on their side. Natalie Portman, who is Natalie Portman. I had a long talk with her about defund the police and for BL Movement for Black Lives put out a letter where we had celebrities and communities sign on to it to defund the police and Natalie had to have like we had a real heart to heart and she said to me, I really feel safe with the police

and saying this to you makes me deeply uncomfortable but it's true. I don't know how to deal with this contradiction. She was like, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, thin, thi, thi, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the the the the the the the the their, their, their, the, thi, thi, thr, thr, thr- is thrown, thrown, thrown, to throooooooooooooooooo, the, thr, the, the, don't know how to deal with this contradiction. She was like, I'm gonna go study, send me everything you have, I'll do my own research. And a couple days ago, she wrote on her Instagram post, I'm with the defund the police movement, and here's my process. I was deeply uncomfortable with this, because as a white woman, they have kept me safe. I have called the police on people. They've kept me safe. And now I understand that my safety has everything to do with black people's unsafety. That to me is where we're going. People are reimagining, taking the time. They're studying, they're trying to figure this thing out, because there's no easy fix. Yeah, and I think we have to take note of how long that process can be, right? So like formal protest against police violence in this country by black folks been happening since the early 1900s, right? And then

white affluent liberals sort of understand that concept around 1967, you know, put together by President Lyndon Johnson and then being like, oh, this is going to keep happening unless we fund these programs. And then we have the building of mass incarceration and the investment in policing and further policing the 94 crime bill. And then you have Black Lives Matter in 2013, and now we're getting to defunding the police. That's a long arc. And it's understanding like there's a lot happening, like some weeks or years. Like, that's a long arc. And it's understanding, like, there's a lot happening, like, some weeks or years. And so, there's a lot of rich opportunity right now for that kind of consciousness shifting. It's interesting that you say it is a new movement because it does feel completely different.

Not just in the physical movement of people, but in the movement of ideas, the way the overton window has shifted completely. You know, I think what's interesting to me is even to Sam, for instance, you know, as part of the organization, 8 can't wait. You guys came out and very quickly to respond to what was happening. You know, you received a little bit of criticism within the community, but what I found interesting was you guys didn't dig your heels in. Instead, you sort of shifted your resources toward defund, and you the the the their, you, you, and you, you, and you, and you, and you, and you, you, and you, and you, you, and you, and you, the movement, and you, and you the movement, and you the movement, you the movement, and you the movement, you said,. Instead, you sort of shifted your resources toward defund and you said, yes,

the movement is here now and we're moving towards that and we support this, which you always had from the beginning, but you work to clarify that message. That's not an easy thing for people to do, and I wanted to know why you guys decided we recognize that this moment is unique. This is the culmination of so much work from so many people across the country. And the ultimate demand that we are hearing is that people want to reimagine and transform the current system. They want to defund the police. They want to build alternatives. And so, yes, it's true that, you know, having a use of force policy that bans things like chokeholds and strangleholds or makes deadly force a last resort rather than

a first resort. Yes, that can reduce police killings, but ultimately the goal should be ending police violence in its entirety. And we recognize that. I think the best strategy to do that is to be supporting the work that's happening on the ground and shifting those resources away from police and into community-based alternatives. All right, well, that's part thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin. thin. thin. thi. thi part two of our panel discussion on how Black Lives Matter and the Defund Movement and the Abolish Movement are looking to reshap America's policing as we know it.

After the break, we'll be wrapping things up and figuring out how to get where people are trying to go. When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. But that's all about to change. Like none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible.

I'm Seth Done of CBS News. Listen to 60 Minutes, A Second Look, starting September 17th, wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to the Daily Social Distancing Show. Today on our episode we've been talking to activists and experts on how to reform America's policing system. There's clearly a problem, but how do you fix it? Well, here's the final part of our discussion. Let me ask you this before we wrap up the panel. Where can people go? Because you know, Patrice, not everyone is Natalie Portman,

so not everybody will get to talk to you one-on-one, which I think everyone would benefit from. But where can people go? You know, one of the things I've struggled with in America is, it's very strange, especially during these years, because there are many almost leaderless movements, I would call them. You know, I come from a country where... They're full, Trevor, leader full. Yeah, no, but I'm saying leaderless in terms of like, you know, so let me give an example.

In South Africa, you know who to talk to about the thing. In America, it feels like everyone gets to to to talk to talk to talk to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, to their, to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, to to their, to to their, their, their, their, toa. theirlea. I'm, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, lea, lea, lea, lea.liphaqqqqqaqaqaqaqaqaqaqaqaqa.aqa.aqa.a.aqa.a.a.a.a.a, lead, leader.a and then the message gets muddied. You know, everyone gets to own abolish, everyone gets to own defund, everyone gets to own. And in my humble opinion, it then becomes difficult to know what is or isn't a policy or an idea because people don't know who to talk to. So where can people go? Where can people learn? Where can people actually find a centralized source of information for like no this is defund, this is abolished because otherwise it feels like it becomes very easy for bad actors and other people to just be like oh no abolish means that you're solving your own crimes.

Do you know what I mean? So so genuinely for people who are watching and who are completely open they're not blocking they like Patrice I I want to be Natalie Portman as well? Where do I to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th tho tho tho th. tho th. th. th. th. th. th. tho thi thi thi. thi. this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this is this this this th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to to th. to to to th. th. to thi. thi. to thi. thi. thi. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. to thoeee. tho. thooe. tho. thoo. th blocking, they're like, Patrice, I want to learn, I want to be Natalie Portman as well. Where do I go and who do I look to? Well, okay, so I hear you and that makes total sense and this is like a deep, I think this is really generational. Our generation is not interested in a single person being the messenger for a number of reasons, number one, it's not safe. Many of the things we're talking about, we're calling out the police. That's not safe to have a central leader.

It's much safer to have a decentralized system. And so I think what happens, and I really appreciate you, Sam, for just naming what you just named, we're talking some of my folks as organizers. I think what we have to do is sort of be on message as a team and sometimes that that takes a little bit of time, but once we get there you could see the conversation, right? When we first started having the conversation, what, 15 days ago about defund, the media the media was looking at us like we were crazy. They're like, that's cute. Let's keep talking about Black Lives Matter. But what you've seen now is almost every single call I get from a media outlet is about defund or this conversation. So we're in the right place. All of our organizations and I think all the work that we're doing is on the same pathway

towards where we want to go. So Black Lives Matter, Black Lives.com, you can find us there, or the movement for Black Lives, which is N4BL.org. Both those organizations are having a robust conversation about defund, and they're having it not just as communication strategists, but they're also thinking about what are the real policies. So those are the two organizations, but I don't want to say those are the organizations. Because I think it's really important that people feel like they have other places to go because this country's huge. There are millions of people here.

We do need many groups and people to have the right understanding of this moment and how to move forward. Well, I can't thank you enough, honestly. I think right now, what's been sparked in Minneapolis has seen its ripple effects felt around the world. And you are some of the people who I think many people are looking to not just for answers, but guidance. But as you said, even just a shake up

to think of the world differently. So thank you for taking the time. Thank you for joining us on the Daily Social Distancing Show. And who knows, maybe in a few years, we'll be having this conversation saying, man, not only do Black Lives Matter, but now we're solving our own crimes. So thank you so much for joining me, everybody. I appreciate the time. Patrice, Michael, Josie, Sam and Alex.

Thank you very all. Thank you all. Hi, tie, tha, thi, th. Thank you so th. Thank you th. Thank you th. Thank you th. Thank you th. Thank you th. Thank you to to to th. th. th. to th. to th. to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, the the the the the the the the the the tho. tho. tho. tho. tho. thea. the thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. toooo. to to to to to to to to to to Hi, team. Thank you so much. Well, there you have it. A lot of food for thoughts, and thank you so much to Patrice, Josie, Sam, Michael and Alex for joining us on the show. I hope this adds some clarity to what the defund movement is about and what the abolished movement is about. And as Patrice said, go and read, there are some websites, the websites, the websites, the websites, thapapapapap, the website, th, th, th, th and th and th and th and th and tham, tham, than, than, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thoes, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th, th, th, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, thoes, the and thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thooooooooooooes. thooes, thoes, that are amazing and informative and I hope they can help you too. Well, that's our show for tonight, but before we go, the Daily Show and Comedy Central have been donating to three groups who are fighting against police brutality and systemic racism. The NWACP Legal Defense Fund, the Equal Justice Initiative, and the Bail Project.

Now, if you'd like to help and you can, then all you have to do is go to go to go to go to go to to to go to to to to then all you have to do is go to the following link and give whatever you can. Until tomorrow, stay safe out there. The Daily Show with Crevernoa, Ears Edition. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 11, 10 Central on Comedy Central and the Comedy Central and the Comedy Central. Watch full episodes and video. Show.com. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram and subscribe to the Daily Show on YouTube for exclusive content and more. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.

When 60 Minutes premiered in September 1968, there was nothing like it. This is 60 Minutes. It's a kind of a magazine for television. Very few have been given access to the treasures in our archives. You're rolling? But that's all about to change. Like, none of this stuff gets looked at. That's what's incredible. I'm Seth Done of CBS News.

Listen to 60 minutes, a second look.