The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Redefining Masculinity & Embracing Vulnerability | Beyond the Scenes

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

From a young age, boys are inundated with messages that teach them not to cry, openly express emotions, or show any sign of weakness for fear of appearing weak or feminine. And as a result, men experience a lack of intimacy and close friendships. Host Roy Wood Jr. sits down with the co-founder of  “A Call to Men,” Ted Bunch, and developmental psychology professor at NYU, Niobe Way, to chat about how boy’s friendships evolve as they get older, the additional cultural pressures that Black and Brown men face, what men can do to prioritize their mental health, and how therapy could be transformative for a lot of men.  Beyond the Scenes is a podcast from The Daily Show. Listen to new episodes every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts, or watch at YouTube.com/TheDaily Show See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Hey, what up ears edition, listeners? It's Roywood Jr. Correspondent for the Daily Show. You're about to hear one of our original Daily Show podcast beyond the scenes. It's the show where we dive deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the Daily Show. We chat with the show's writers and producers and experts. This episode is about male intimacy and vulnerability and why men are in a friendship recession. I'm joined by Ted Bunch, who's the co-founder of a call

to men, and developmental psychology professor at NYU, Nyo, Niobe Wade, to discuss how boys' friendships evolve as they get older, what men can do to prioritize their mental health, and how therapy can be transformativetransformative for a lot of men. We hope you enjoy it. And if you like the show, check out the Beyond the Scenes podcast wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to Beyond the Scenes, the podcast that goes deeper into topics and segments that you might have seen on the Daily Show. This is what this podcast is. This is how you got to think about this podcast this this this this the the th th th th th th th th th th th th th beyond the scenes, the podcast that goes deeper into topics and segments that you might

have seen on the daily show. This is what this podcast is. This is how you got to think about this podcast. You ever go bowling, right? You know you want to go bowling and bowling, you're just going and you have a good time. The stars, the bowling pins and the bowling ball but this podcast, this podcast, we're all all the extra shit that you that you that you that you that you th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th to be able to bowl. All right, you gotta have the goofy clown shirt. You gotta have the big ass clown shoes. You gotta have beer. You gotta have wings. You have to have an inability to bowl. All of the skills that are required to make bowling fun.

That's exactly what this podcast is. So I'm Roywood Jr. And today, we're gonna be talking about a and today we're going to be talking about a topic that has come up on the show quite a bit male vulnerability and intimacy and why it is important That men go to therapy Roll the clip. We know that women are going through it, but we have to acknowledge that men are going through it too You guys are angry. You're depressed and you're're lonely. In fact, 15% of men say they have zero, zero friends. And the other 85%, they don't have friends either, but

they was too sad to fill out the survey. Now luckily there's a tool that can help you with all of this. Therapy! Therapy! Therapy! Therapy is amazing! You pay someone to unload all your bullshit on them. They're like prostitutes for the feelings. The problem is, men don't use it. In fact, they're almost half as likely to go to therapy as women. Men out here treating therapy like Nick Cannon treats condoms.

They're here to help you, Nick. But we know why men is this way. Because starting from a young age, we teach them that they can't have feelings. Today I'm joined by co-founder of a call to men and co-author the book of dares. 100 ways for boys to be kind, bold and brave. Ted Bunch, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. How you doing, Ted. I'm good, Roy. Thank you so much.

Happy to be here with you and the voice of stature right there. That's a voice of statute. And I see for the people listening, you got one of them grown men, you got one of them coach go teas. I just want to do whatever you tell me to do, Ted. Also joining me is a professor of developmental psychology at NYU, an author of the book, Deep Secrets, Boys Friendships, and the Crisis of Connection. Her book was also the inspiration for the Oscar nominated film Close. Naomi, welcome to the show. Niobe, how you're doing? I'm doing great. I'm so happy to be here, Roy, with you and Ted.

I'm really excited about this conversation. Well, I'm happy to be a part of this as well. And as a father of a six year old, I definitely, you know, if I want to be honest, just up front, you know, I didn't come from a home. This is why I feel like this discussion is very important, you know. I had two parents that everybody worked odd hours. My dad worked mornings and nights, so I rarely saw him other than pick me up from baseball practice. My mother worked until 9 p.m. because she was going to law school and PhDs and

all of the secondary degrees that you get to build your income. So I didn't see my mom but right before I went to bed and first thing in the morning on on a way to the bus stop. So this idea of intimacy and hugs and conversation and and that was not I knew I was loved. I th. th. th. th. to. to. to. to. the to. the the the th. I to. I the the th. I to. I the the the th. I to. I the the to. I to. I toe. I toe. I toe. I was the the the toe. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was. I was the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the t. I was. I'm. I'm. t. I'm. t. t. t. t. t. today. I'm. t. I'm. t. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I'm. I was. I was not, I knew I was love, I felt love, but you know, I came up in an era where intimacy within a family, especially man to man, was more incidental than intentional. So in coming up with ways to be intentional with my son, it's these types of stories and stuff within the show that have really helped me because, you know, and I'll start with you Ted, because, you know, the act of being a man is something that's just said, but it's never really detailed, it's never really laid out in specifics.

You know, people tell you a man up, why you're crying, boy, be a man. What does that mean? My knee hurt. All right? It's okay to cry. It's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it's, it's, it's th, it's, it's th, it's th, it's th, th, th, th, th, the th, you, the the the the the the the the th, you, you, you, you, you, you, you th, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you the, you the, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, you, you, th, you th, you th, you know, th, you know, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi the the that mean? My knee hurt. I. It's okay to cry. It's okay to feel. So, Ted, let's start off with talking a little bit about, you know, defining how society views manhood and masculinity, or as you refer to it, the man box. Explain to us what the man box and what does healthy manhood actually look like. So thank you, Roy, for that. And I appreciate what you're sharing about the difference from you growing up and then the type of parent you want to be the intentional father that you want to be around nurturing and supporting your son. Our parents did that too to the best of their ability, but we know much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much, to, to, to be, to be, to be, to be, to be, the to be, the to be, their, to be, their, their, to be, their, their, to, their, to, to be, their, to be, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the the the their, their, their, their, their, they. their. their. the the the too, their. too, too, too, too, toe. And so when we talk about the manbox, which is a term that a call to men coined more

than 20 years ago, that's a short version of saying the collective socialization of manhood, right? The manbox just sounds cooler, right? When we talk about the manbox, you can imagine all the things that we're taught around manhood and masculinity, even if we were to ask a six-year-old boy or a 16-year-old boy, what have you been taught about what a man is? They'll say be tough, be strong, make money, carry the bag, right? A bag of money. Don't ask for help. Don't ask for help. Don't ask for help. Don't be vulnerable. Don't be weak. Because those things, that vulnerability, that weakness, those things where you need to ask for help are not what men do. I'm putting that in quotes, based on this male-dominated society,

it's what women do. And if you're a man that does that, then you've fallen short of the manhood that you're expected to live up to. So there's a few things that we're all taught that on some level, women and girls have less value than men and boys, that women are the property of men, and that women and girls are sexual objects. These are the things that we're taught,

and we pass these teachings down to our children, as well as that we're not supposed to openly express emotion, that we're not supposed to show weakness, that we're not supposed to show weakness or fear, you're not supposed to act like a woman or a girl, you're not supposed to ask for help. I do want to unpack just for a moment that less value property objectification piece, Roy, if you don't mind. So we're taught our collective socialization, right?

It's just kind of in the air If I say to a little boy, you have to throw that ball harder than that son, you throw like a girl. Everybody knows the answer to that. We've never had this conversation, but we know the answer, right? And it's not that it's true, but we know what the answer to that is. Just recently, you had Tiger Woods, to another golfer, that's a good gulfor, as a way, as a way, as a way, as a they, as a th, as a th, th, th, th, th, th, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it's, and it's, and it, and it, and it's, and it's, and it's, and it, and it, and it, and it's, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and it, and, and, and, and, and, they... And, they. And, they. they. they. they. they. they. they. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. the the the the they. the the he just to you're kidding me that that just happened oh yeah that happened recently that's amazing yeah oh they got on Tiger not Tiger Woods thought oh there surely no cameras here at this televised golf tournament wow I will slide you a woman joke yeah I didn't mean to cut you off today no that's that's a great example because this is done everywhere because like that six year old boy right what is he th? th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the th. th. the. the the th. that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that's that that that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's. that's th. the th. th. th. the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. that's the the. the that's the that's that's the that's what does he leave that situation when that man he looks up to says you have to throw her that you throw like a girl and girls still just fine right but

does he leave that interaction thinking that girls are equal to him or less than and we're giving him those messages all day long and Tiger continues to give those messages so it's not just Tiger it's all all all that that that that that that that that that that that th. th th th th th th th th th th th th. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is th is is th is th is th is is th is th is th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. that's thi. that's that's that's that's that's thi. thi. that's thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. those messages. So it's not just Tiger, it's all of us. That's our collective socialization. And that women on some level of the property of men. So if I'm in New York or LA or Chicago or Texas, and I walk over to a man today who's hitting his wife or girlfriend, I say, knock it off, he says to me,

shut your ass up. That's it. Mine your business, one way way.. And the other is around the objectification. Our boys are actually taught to objectify girls, and they're taught that by men in their life. They're taught that by messages they're getting in all different areas, right? And it's not that we're doing things, well, let's let me give a quick example. the high school boy in your community, Nibe, or anyone who's listening here, great kid, 17-year-old kid who wants to take a young woman out to go to a movie. He's just taking her out, right? He takes her out to the movie. He takes her out to the movie. He takes her out. Her name is Keisha. He takes on the group text with a couple of his boys and says, hey guys I'm tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, I'm tak, tak, I'm tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, tak, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the their, their, their, their ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, to to ish out to the movie. They give him a little crap for that, but he takes her, takes it back home, perfect gentleman,

he gets her back on the group text and says, hey guys, I'm back, is the first thing those boys, good boys, ask him is how was the movie? No. Right, right. So where did they learn that from. So that's the man, that's, the their. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. t. t. t. t. t. t. te. te. te. te. te. te. te.. te.. te. te. te. te. te because the only purpose to spend time with her is the conquest. That's what they're taught. Okay, so, Niobe, you've studied young boys friendships and how these relationships change as they get older. Can you tell us more about what you found in your research?

So I've been listening to boys and listening to boys. So I've been listening to boys and what the boys the boys the boys the boys the boys the boys the boys the boys to boys the boys the boys the boys to boys the boys the boys the boys the boys the boys as a high school counselor listening to boys and thinking about surprise that what they were talking about was not what I expected. They were talking about their friendships, their desires for close friendships, their desires for intimate connection with other guys. And that led really to a lifetime of being fascinated by, first of all, was this typical of a lot of boys. But secondly, why aren't we telling this story?. And so th th th. And so th. And so the story, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi their surprise, thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, what, what's, what's, what's, what's, what's their, their, their, their, their, their, their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their, their, their, their, their, their, their. I's their. their. their, their, their, their, they're. they're. their, their, this typical of a lot of boys. But secondly, why aren't we telling this story? And so what's interesting to me is that when you listen to young people,

when you listen to boys, I would say anywhere from your son's age, all the way up to basically 24-25, they tell something very different in terms of their socialization, especially when they're younger younger and thier and their younger younger younger younger younger younger younger younger their their they are younger they are younger they're they're their they're in terms of their socialization, especially when they're younger and they're less pressure to man up, which is that they want close friendships. You hear 12, 13, 14-year-olds talking beautifully

about their desire for friendships, their desire to really trust someone, to not be laughed at. That not being laughed at, being able to share something with they're not laughed at, that being able to trust them. And then as they get older, they basically the pressures to man up starts to happen and they start to disconnect from what they want. They start to sort of, everything's that becomes a joke,

even though, even though basically, that they don't see it as a joke for closeness, especially with other young men. You see the suicide rate goes up. You see all kinds of stuff. Mass violence happens right at that age, between 16 and 25, where men are being asked by the culture, young men, to basically disconnect. And this is the part I really want to say Roy on your show. This is a human desire. It's not a girl thing, It's not a guy thing. It's not a gender identity thing or a sexuality thing, a gay thing. It's a human desire to want to connect to other people deeply, emotionally.

And the only way we connect, Roy, this is the whole point. And this is a whole part of Ted's work too. The only way we connect is is is is is vulnerable, we're expressive, we share our feelings. We're also stoic, right Ted. I mean, in relationships you need to be able to be stoic, you need to be able to be soft, but we only value half of our, half of ourselves and especially for young men. So if we only have value the side, the hard side of ourselves, first of all, we're not going to have relationships. We're not going to have good relationships. Secondly, we're going to be in trouble. So if we raise kids to go against their humanity, go against their nature, which is to be loving

human beings, and we raise them to go against that, and to actually value this sort of only the hard side of themselves, that's the manning up part, then, th, th, th, th,y, right, Roy? I mean, that, you know, why do, why do so many men need therapy in the first place? All of the causations that you've just laid out, is that part of why you think men are stuck in, I think, as you've called it, a friendship recession, in a way, be real with your friends? You can't be open and honest for fear of being teased or being called a girl, man, why you crying. Exactly. Everything that I'm saying comes directly from the mouths of boys. I mean, they will say things like, it might be nice to be a girl

because then I wouldn't have to be emotionless. I mean, I just want adults listening to that comment. It might be nice to be a to be to be to be to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a to be a thiii. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. the the the thi. te. te. te. te. te. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tie. tie. tie. te. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. tean. t that, to register that comment. It might be nice to be a girl because then I wouldn't have to be emotionless. We are asking human beings to be emotionless and then we expect them to be have healthy relationships. It is a human desire and that our boys, as Naubi said, start out with all of these things that they want to express. And actually when we allow space for them to them to, they're thirsty to talk about it. They really are. And so are men, by the way, once we remove that it's the, that it's, that there's a shaming of being vulnerable and talking about it. So when we start teaching, we start teaching our boys not to experience those feelings.

When we tell our boys to stop crying, we're also saying stop feeling. And so then they push that, those emotions down, and the only thing that's expressed with that's accepted is anger, aggression. That's what's seen as an emotion that men can express and lust. You can express that as well. So those are the harmful things that thities to anxiety and depression and suicide. All of those things are tied to this. So the boys don't develop a language to express how they're feeling. So we become these men who also don't have that language. And so we don't know how to ask for help because when we're tried to ask for help, that's been seen as a weakness or something that men don't do. How much of all of this that we've been laying out?

Because what's interesting about this whole discussion is that men are going through, hey, show your emotions, hey, women can do it too. Meanwhile, women are cooking on the feminism side of the game and going, we are girls, girl, girl, power, we go march, we can do whatever we want. So it almost seems as if both sides are getting, are having two different types of awakenings concurrently that also kind of but hits. How much did the lack of women's rights in the 30s and the 40s and the 50s? And even if you really want, because I'm not going to put this solely on

slavery, but I also want to put it in this in the context that for a long time in America, the man had to go do the work and the woman was at the house and you was in the kitchen and maybe the man felt that he could never share because no matter what the burden of providing was passed on he has to do it. And th. And th. And th. And th th th th th th th th th th th th the th th the th th the th the th and th and th and th and th th and th and th and th and the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their the. the. the. the an thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. thean. the an the an the an the the burden of providing was passed on he has to do it. And then we got to a time where we didn't have to live like that anymore but men were maybe subconsciously passing on that rhetoric to their next generation and then their next generation. And by the time we got to the 90s, the idea of what a man should be was molded by what a man had to be at that time. And we thought that that, like, someone said to me something I thought was very profound. Don't confuse the tactics you use to survive with the tactics you need to go on. How much does the history of gender dynamics play a role in a lot of these bad habits

being passed down from generation to generation. Yeah, so in a male-dominated society, right, because that's what it is, and it's patriarchal society, it's a male-dominated society, and then you do have women who are seeking liberation, and then you do have women who are seeking liberation, and the same way that in a white supremist society, you have people of color who are seeking liberation, right? All of those th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th tho tho tho tho tho that thate tho-a thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thia, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, th... th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, theeeeeean, thean, thean, thean, thean, thean, theeean, theeeeeee, right? All of those things, so because these constructs exist. And there is an antiquated notion of manhood and masculinity that I think is so woven into the fabric of our society that when it's challenged, then sexism rears this ugly head, right, and seeks to put down what women have achieved or are doing and those kind of

things as if it's taking away from men, but it's not. It's not just this one pie and that everybody's piece is a little smaller, it's an expansion of a pie, right? It's much bigger than that. So this allows men, right, to really look at our authentic selves too, that we don't just have to be this rigid notion of manhood, that there's so much more to you and to me and to the men who are listening. There's so much more to who we are that we can now embrace our full authentic selves also, because there's things that you may have wanted to do, or your son may want to do that the man box says, oh no no, no, you're not you you you you you you.... th. have flowers in my picture all the time when I'm on Zoom, right?

It took me years to accept that, oh, I can go buy flowers because I like flowers in the house. I don't have to bring them to a woman to have flowers in the house or to my wife to have flowers. That actually, I'm the one who likes the color. I'm the one who likes that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's thoes thoes. And it took me a while to really accept that. Now, that's my authentic self. I love flowers, so now I'll go to the florists, and I pick out what I want. They say, do you want me to put it in the vase for you, Mr. Bunch, no, I want to take them

home and arrange them because, you know what, Roy and Naomi, I like flowers. So, yeah, there's so much that's much much much much much much much much much much much much much much much that we their much their much their much their much their their their their their their their things about being a man. I don't want to not be a man. I don't want to not be a father. And this is not an indictment on manhood actually. It's an invitation to men. It's not about calling men out for wrong behavior. This is about calling men in to a healthy, respectful manhood. So what thinking that thinking is masculine and feeling is feminine, the heart is masculine and feminine, right? You get where I'm going, right?

We got where I'm going? We got a marinate on that one. Yeah, right? You get what I'm saying? So if you- Thinking is masculine. It's feminine, right? That's sound like like, like, like with everybody I've dated in my life. Goodness gracious. If you live in a culture that says basically independence thinking the self, stoicism is masculine, and vulnerability, emotions, sensitivity is feminine, you're going to be messed up because

ultimately you are half hard and half soft as a human. And again, I'm not doing the human thing because it's my own ideology. I'm doing it really because that's what the boys are yelling at us about. Like they are saying exactly what you just said, Ted. They are saying, I am actually half what you call feminine. I am vulnerable, I'm sensitive, I'm emotionally intelligent. I like flowers or I don't like, whatever it is, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. And, th, th, th, th, th, and, and, th, and, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, am vulnerable, I am sensitive, I'm emotionally intelligent, I like flowers or I don't like, you know, whatever it is, but things that have been associated with femininity

and you're trying to push that down in me and that's how I actually build relationships and friendships. So like what's your problem? I feel like young people have been yelling at adults for almost a century and saying what is wrong with you people? You know that basically we get it, young people get it, Ted you know that. Young people get it all the time. And so I think when it comes to the women's issues, this is what I think Roy. I think that women obviously, and I definitely identify as a feminist and I'm definitely part of the feminist movement. Women are angry because for lots of different justified reasons.

So I'm not, I'm not, you know, I'm not diminishing that in any way. But the reality is that we keep on seeing the symptom as the problem. So we keep on thinking that it's basically from women's from a feminist perspective, we keep on thinking, well, it's men's problems. So if you fix men, then the problem should go away. But it's all of our problems, Roy. It's the culture that we have all created with obviously this hierarchy that some men have been more influential than other men. You know, you're talking about white supremacy, etc. etc. And some, you know, and some women have been more powerful than other women. But basically,

we have created a society that doesn't make any sense. Where we've gendered basic human qualities. So then that means is that women are getting mad at men when we really what we should do is try to change the culture and the more we sort of blame it on men actually the more men just feel attacked. I've told I've heard that a lot you know the men just feel attacked when we have to see it as a collective problem. before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before before. Before. Before. Before. Before. the the the the the the the the the the the their. their. their. their. their. their, their, their, th. th. th. th. th. th. that we that's, th. th. th. that's, that's, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. that, that, that, the. that, that that that that that that that that that that that that that the. the. the. the go to the break, I want to delve in for a second with you and I'll be about your work that you did where you essentially walk me through this. You had 150 boys ages 13 to 18. Well, I followed them over over four to five years. Okay, how did you measure intimacy and see it slowly start to dissipate in their relationships with

other boys at the same age? Because you were essentially looking to see how they related and how they spoke to other boys and when did the dissipation of feeling and turning into creatures of action when that started happening. When you listen to 12-year-old boys, they will use the language of love. They will talk, given a safe space, right? Not getting a safe space, they won't do it.

When they talk about their friends, they say, I love him, I can't live without him. Or I want to find a friend that I could really rely on and not be, and not be, and not be, you, and not be, you, you, you, and not, you, you, you, you, you, and not, you, you, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, too, their, their, their, their, their, their, too, too, too, to, to, their, their, their, to find a friend that I could really rely on and not be, you know, and be myself and be a real self. So the language, it's right there in the language. It's literally they're talking love, they're asking questions about love, they're thinking about love, they're thinking about love, they're thinking about love, both hetero, their toylain, also it's a lot's, also, also, also, also, also, also, also, also, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, their, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, their, tho, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, it's, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, it, the, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, th................ It's, their, their, their, their, their, their, ttoday, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, t safe space, they actually ask it. Then as they get older, it's incredible because remember it's the same kids, so it's the same kids over time.

You start to hear this, I don't care, Ted, you know this language, I don't care whatever, it's all good, it's all good, you know, like, no, I don't have, you know, I don't connect to someone's that much much much, that much, that much, that much, that much, that much, that, good. You know, that whole pressure to sort of sound like you're totally invulnerable. So you hear it in the language and then you also hear the anger, you hear the sadness, and then sometimes in the worst-case scenarios you hear the depression and the sense of feeling totally isolated and not knowing

what to do about it. And a lot of anger at why is not anybody paying attention to these basic human needs? And everybody's calling me, you know, in some case, mass shooters. I've read the mass shooter manifestos. It's the same thing. They feel like nobody's paying attention to their suffering. Right there, I want to, I want to take a break,

and I want to come back and jump more into that and this is beyond the scenes, we'll be right back. Now it'll be before the break. We were just talking about how men feel like they don't have a way to express their feelings without being criticized or compared to being a woman or having their feelings not be received properly. And so as a result, it can bubble up in a number of different ways. Now the study that you conducted with a number of boys over the course of four or five years and their teenage years, you're seeing that a lot of the conversation in verbiage as they became more emotionally disconnected was similar to some of the verbiage that you've seen in some of the mass shoot of manifestos.

What are some of the other ways that this type of, you know, and I don't want to say dysfunction, but the absence of vulnerable, vulnerable, that's not a word, you knew what I was trying to say just there, don't laugh, vulnerability. The lack of, stop laughing, Ted, I see you. How does the lack of, the inability to be vulnerable? There, I did it. What are some other negative ways that it manifests itself? It can show up in a lot of ways. It can show out outwardly, right?

Because these are hurt kids. And you can show outwardly where they're hurting other kids. Maybe it's bullying or gun violence, all of these other things where they're trying to establish some sort of power, some sort of affirmation. And when we talk about the emotional disconnection that Naomi brought up and then you leaned into a little bit there, Roy, I do want to say this, that those emotions, when they stop from that first year of the research to the last year of the research where they're not vulnerable, where they're not looking for that connection, or at least admitting, they're not, they're looking for it, they're not admitting it, is because they're becoming more and more indoctrinated in the manbox. And the glue that keeps that man box together is homophobia. Yeah. Right. So in other words, that, yeah. So, in other words, in that, that, that, th th their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they, they're their, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they. They's. They's. They's. They's, they. They's, they. They's, they. They's, they's, they's. they's, they's. they're, they're, they're, they're, they're they're not, they're not, their. their. their their their not, their not, their not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're not, they, yeah, so that when they start saying that there's an emotional connection,

other boys or men in their life even, or even women in their life, because we're all social, we're all swimming in the same water, right? Yeah. Are saying, oh, no, you don't say that. You don't do that. They push them back. Because that homophobia, that hohohohohohohohohohohohoho. T. T. T. T. T. T. that's, th. th. th. they. they. they. they. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. th. thoo, tho, or tho. their. their, or their, or their, or their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. their. th. th. their. thoo. tho. tho. thooo. thoooooooooooooooooo. th. th. th. thoooooooooooooooo. their tho. their. th glue that keeps that man bust together. It doesn't work without it, right? It doesn't work without it.

So they're punished when they show their emotions. They're punished when they're vulnerable because it's seen as weakness. So they're really being taught that, okay, it's not safe for me to talk about. It's not safe for me things like, you know, things that I don't even want to say it, right? But they say things that push them back into the man box, right? Yeah, yeah, they say things like no homo.

So in my, in my, in my interviews, you get things directly. Which to define just real quick, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, just, that, that, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I that, I that, I that, I don't, I don't, I don't that, I don't, that, that, I don't, things, I, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, th. Things, th. Things, thi, thi, thi, thi, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things, things,, a man, I love you, no homo. As if to say, I love you, but not in a gay way, which assumes that love means intimacy and sex, etc. Exactly. Well, between men and boys it does. We don't say it, they don't say it when they talk to a girl, right? So it really is, there's homophobia within that, right? If we didn't live in a homophobic society, no homo actually wouldn't necessarily be homophobic. But because we, right? So, so the idea, right?

The idea is don't be such a girl or no homo is misogynistic and homophobic because we live in a homophobic, misogynist society. So it's, but I think, I really like that image, Ted, I'm going to use it again too, and quote you of course, is the glue, it's the glue. It forces up young men to actually adhere because there are consequences if you don't. And the consequences I hear about in older men, I mean older teenagers, sorry, all the time. The consequences of being teased, bullied, pushed around, if you don't play sports, if you don't man up, if you don't do things that make you look straight. And this is the thing, Roy, in our culture right now, it's okay, according to the kids in New York City right now. It's okay if you have an aunt who's gay, you have a uncle who's gay, maybe you even have a, you you know a brother who's gay, but I'm not gay. So there's this weird weird, th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th is th is th th is th is th is th is th is thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thus thi, you that, you thi, you th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th, you th, th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, th, th, th. th. th. th. th. th. thin, th. thin, thin, thin, thr- thr-in, thr-I thr-in, thr-I thr-uuuu thr-boy, thin, thr-boy, thr-in, thr-boy, thr-in, th, I'm not gay. So there's this weird sort of almost backlash going on

that like it's cool, it's cool that you know, you, people do that, people love each other, but don't think I'm gay. Let me clarify. Yeah, let me clarify. Don't put that stigma on me. So the men who are the least secure their masculinity are oftentimes the most likely to adhere to masculinity. So, you know, oftentimes you get athletes, for example, Roy, really well-known athletes,

who are actually breaking the gender borders all the time, you know, hugging each other, because they don't have to prove their manhood because everybody knows their man. Slaps on the ass, in the time of the act. Exactly, exactly. Exactly. Right. Exactly, exactly, exactly. Crying is allowed, that the Super Bowl, you lose the Super Bowl, cry. Crying, exactly, exactly. You see some of the most tender things between well-known athletes. And so it's just interesting to me to think about that homophobia drives it,

and that's part of the culture. I mean, come on! It's stunning to me that we still think in a culture, we still raise our kids, Roy, that thinking that thinking is masculine and straight, of course, and feeling is feminine and feeling is feminine, and and that when women think, and they're punished for that. Exactly. Right, when women think and show their intelligence and all those things, and that when women think, and and show their intelligence and all those things, and thin, and th, and th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and, thi, and, thi, and, thi, and, thi, and, thi, and, thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thi. thi. And, thi, thi, thi. When women think, when women think and show their intelligence and all those things, men say things like, yeah, well, she need to be in the kitchen or she, you know, they're doing things that, that diminish that, right? Exactly. Because it challenges, again, this patriarchal notion of male dominance. When we talk about that as parents, so last year I had the pleasure of going on finding

your roots with the wonderful Dr. Henry Lewis-Kates, and amongst all the things that I found out about my family tree, I knew that I did not have, when I was born I had one living grandparent. What I did not know before that television show was that my father lost his father when he was four. And from that time on, there was no male head of household per census data every eight years that was done when my father was living with his mother. You know, well into adulthood. So as far as I know, there was never another man of the house in my dad's life. And so it really reconstituted a lot of how I viewed how he raised me.

And so there was one thing that always came up without getting into like, is this isn't me like unearthing family trauma and drama or anything like that, but I just know that one thing my dad would always say whenever he was losing an argument where my mama was I pay the bills. Because my mom was pouring all of her money into grad school and second degrees and third degrees and law degrees. You're right in the house. You know, you know how we get today when we lose an argument, we start bringing up the seats. But what I didn't realize until I became a father myself was that was the first thing that

I defined as manhood was my ability to provide and clothe and feed and it wasn't about feeling and connecting with my son. I knew that was important, but it was not what I prioritized because the idea of paying the cost to be the, but so the example you get is the example you see. There was no book, there was no Dr. Seuss for this, there was no Birsteen Bares about fatherhood. So, you know, how do how do fathers provide, you know, a model, not only to their sons, but to their daughters about what they need from a man when they go out and start dating? Like, how can we as parents, especially as fathers, set a better example and roadmap to what masculinity looks like? Because I feel like the issue that I'm dealing with as a, as a 44-year-old man, I could say that. The issue I'm the the the th, the th, the th, th, th, th, the th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, you tho, thi, thi, you tho, you tho, you to to tho, you, you, you to tho, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you th, you th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thir thir thir thir thir thir thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thin, thir, thir, thir thir thir thir thir thir thir feel like the issue that I'm dealing with as a as a 44-year-old man I could say that the issue I'm dealing with is

trying to relearn something while also teaching it to someone at the same time. So your father with the belief that I'm the provider I pay the bills all the things those things are important. Being a provider paying the bill are very and that's an important thing th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th thi thi thi thi thi thi. thi. And thi. And thi. And thi. thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi. I thi thi. I thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I thi thi thi. I thi. I thi. I'm thi. I'm to to to to to toeee toeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. I'm to toeeeeat toe. I'm te. I'm tha. I'm t things, those things are important. Being a provider paying the bill are very important and that's an important thing. And so, but whatever the woman in the household does, right, your mom working, somebody's taking care of children too, whatever she's doing is also just as important. Absolutely. So the problem is that in our, again, women have less value the men and boys, so whatever men are doing is always elevated. Our default setting is to give men the benefits of the doubt. Our default setting is to elevate what men do over what women do.

So what women, oh, she stays home and takes care of the kids. Have you stayed home and take care of the kids? You'll run back to your job. You know what it's like, that's work, right? So it isn't like that's not work, but it's not valued because women do it. And honestly, when men do do it, it is valued. Oh, what a great dad. He's doing all of those things, right? When women are juggling this all day long, work and home and their relationship with

their spouse as well. So we often put much more value on what men do and not on what women do and that's that's really the way it plays out which is which is which is harmful and it's disrespectful. And I want to add something one or other division that we do. We don't listen to young people so we think we know, we know how it is we think we know how we should do it and if you actually listen to you know five-year olds up until the to th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi thi thi thi thi. thi thi thi thi thi the the the the the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi thi. thi th we should do it. And if you actually listen to, you know, five-year-olds up until, as I said, up until whatever in the 20s, they tell you a story about what we, who we are as human, what gets in the way, and how to solve it.

A five-year-old boy says to his mom, who comes into the kitchen, the mom's going through a divorce, the mom doesn't want to have a sad face, a sad home. So the boy says to his mom within a split second seeing his mom with a big happy smile on her face, he says, mom, mommy, why are you smiling when you're feeling sad? And what that five-year-old is showing is he can, he's, where he is asking, why are you faking an emotion? That's a deep feeling. That's a deep feeling. Another five-year-old boy said to his mom, mommy, are you yelling at me because your mommy yelled at you? I mean, think about how genius we come out into the world as humans

with that natural intelligence. And then what happens is we grow up and we become less intelligent. And I'm not just being snarky when I say that. We really do become less intelligent. We become more cowed over by our cultural norms. And we don't listen to our heart. We don't listen to our minds. We start believing in things that we know are not true. My daughter asked me that at eight.

Why do we believe in things we know thin thin, Roy, I promise you, they know this stuff we're talking about right now. They don't need to be taught this stuff. What role does society play, especially in black and brown fathers, you know, dealing with all of these extra cultural pressures when they're outside the home, and being able to, or not being able to or not being able to partition those stresses and bringing that into the house. Because I'm sure to some degree my dad, not to some degree, my dad dealt with a lot of racism because that was his calling journalistically. So you get a nice full day of white folks yelling at you at a couple protests and you come home. Yeah, you might be a little bit more on edge and you probably are also a little bit more disconnected with your child because you're still processing your own stuff that's going on out there in the real world.

How does mental health play a role in men sometimes misplaying the role of father? Fortunately mental health, talking about mental health, accepting mental health is becoming more and more acceptable than the the men. And it's, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi tho, tho, thi the thi thi thi thi tho, tho, tho, and thi thi the the thi the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the thi, thi, the thi, thi, the thi, the the the their their their their thi, their their their thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, and their, talking about mental health, accepting mental health is becoming more and more acceptable among men. And it's really because men who have an influence and platform, people like yourself, Roy, who can talk about mental health being important, other men are listening to that and saying that, oh, okay, so, you know, maybe it's not about weakness. Maybe I do need to do that, because we know on some level that this isn't working for us either, right? Men know that. But when we talk about again the construct of racism that, so we have men who living in this man box in the stressors around

that, not asking for help. So we don't go to the doctor when we need to, all these other things, anxiety and depression are really off the charts. Suicide is about three and a half times higher among men than women. Men are living only about five and six years less than women for all of these things, including not getting medical checkups for prevention, all of those things. But then when you have the issue of black men and men of color, the trauma, as you said, of just dealing and walking around every day in a racist society is a very traumatic thing. So much so that we do it so much that it's kind of like we don't even pay attention to it anymore until it's extreme, like, you know, some, like George Floyd or something, but we're dealing with these traumas all the time. And our boys are too, right?

The boys are also, so they have to have a place to be able to talk about that, to debrief about it, to see that it's not about them, that're worthy and that they are enough, but they're not getting these messages. So we need to lean in, especially for our boys and for our black men. But again, because of this, you need to prove that yourself in this man-box, and black men haven't really had the opportunity in the same way that white men have, right? Because black men can do it, you know Black men can do it, you know, you'll see it more in sports, entertainment, music, that kind of thing, where you'll see many more images of black men who are really successful, where white men get to play out this power and control thing in all areas, right?

So it can be exaggerated also, but it also can be something where it's really harmful for us because it limits us so much as black men. It really is a limiting thing but it's also a way of protecting ourselves. I, Niobe, I want to direct a question to you and tell you feel free to jump in. I'm going to paint you the scenario. You tell me what the hell I should have said to this child. Okay. So I take my boy to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a kid to a to a to a to a to a to a their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their th.e. the. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. thea. the hell I should have said to this child. So I take my boy to a kid's birthday party and like a five-year-old just turns to me and we're just watching, it's not my child, it's someone else's child. I don't know who's child.

And he asks, with a straight face, why do men work harder than women? And I just, oh, and I just, oh, and you know, you don't want you don't to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to to the to to to to the to to to to the the to the the to the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the. the thi. the the thi. the thi. thi. the the thi. too.. And I just, oh. And you know, you don't want to give the wrong answer and poison his child, and then he takes it back to his family goes, and yeah, the other daddy told me that men, oh, and I was like, hey, we all work hard, and we have to look to make sure that the work, that we see the work, just because you don't see don't see don't see don't see the work the work the work the work the work the work, that we see the work, just because you don't see the work doesn't mean that the work isn't happening. I just kind of ate my pizza and drifted away from this child before you ask more deeper philosophical questions.

What role does media play in influencing the perceptions of, you know, what it means to be a man, what fatherhood means, you know? There's the type of content that we're exposing our children to also kind of perpetuate those roles just a little bit. Yeah, absolutely. As I became more conscious of gender equity within the home, there's like, there's like, there was a show as a pepper pig. I was like, mm, let me make sure Mama Pig out there doing some stuff too. And it ain't just daddy pig the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the tha tha tha tha th. th. I th. I th. I's th. I's th. I's thoes. I was thathing. I's thi. I was thoes. I was that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's. I's th. I's t. to. t. t. to. to. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. t. to. there doing some stuff too, and then it ain't just daddy pig coming in the house with the briefcase.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I had to run every show through a filter, but what role does media play in a lot of this? Okay, so first I want to ask, I want to give you some support for how you responded to that boy. But I do think that when people say things things as if the what we're trying to fight against real, like men work harder, men are more human than other people or man are smarter or whatever it is, the best way to deal with that whether it's little kids or your colleagues, Roy, is to ask questions about it. So tell me about why you think they work harder. So what's the example? And then the idea is to say, okay, so tell me about what your mom does.

Like tell me what, right, so that you're engaging the conversation because ultimately what I learned from working with college students, right? Is if you say you're wrong, that you know, it never works. So I basically try to figure out whatthem think that and then also introducing like let's think about what women do. Let's like going to what your mom does. You know, and so that they can begin to recognize it without being told that they're wrong. And I think media of course reinforces. I mean it reinforces this incoherent, immoral, amoral story we tell about ourselves. That there's some human qualities that are more valuable than other human qualities, and we repeat that story. So media just reinforces it and I don't care what kind of media, it reinforces it. Now obviously shows like this are critical because this is allows us to disrupt

those narratives so I don't want to make media all blanket, but obviously it does. I mean, you know, we are living right now in an imm an immoral, immoral, immature culture. And we got to disrupt it with these kind of conversations. On the other side of the break, we're going to talk solutions. And I want to know how hopeful you all are for this next generation of men coming down. How hopeful are you from a six-year-old. I want to know, I want to hear straight out your the the the the the the the the to you to you the to to the to the the to to the to to the to to the to to to to to the to to the to to to to to to to to to the to to the the the to to to to to be toeouk. to to to talk. to talk. to talk. to talk. to talk. to talk. to talk, to talk, to talk, to talk, to talk, to talk, to talk, to talk. to talk. to to be. to be. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. thea. the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. the th. th. thea. thea. thea want to know, I want to hear it straight out your mouth. This is behind the scenes. We'll be right back. Beyond the scenes, we are rounding third and headed for home. It's been a wonderful, wonderful discussion here. How can somebody prioritize their mental health? And if you are a man that is in a friendship recession now, I'm not talking about teenagers, we're talking about grown men. What tools can men take to build and deepen

and strengthen the connections that they already have? Normalize it. When I'm in classes, I will get a switch within four seconds. I'm not exaggerating. Boys, I will read a quote for 12-year-old boys that says something soft, you know, I love him so much from my book, Deep Secrets. They will start cracking up. I'll say, why are you laughing?

They'll say, the dude sounds gay. And I'll say, well, I don't, I didn't look at his sexuality. I'm just telling you that 80% of boys sound at some point in their teenage years, and they will say inevitably for real, and I'll say, oh yeah, for real, that's really what teenage boys say. And guess what happens, Roy? Within four, I'm not kidding. They will immediately start talking about their own friendships, their desire for friendships.

All they need is the permission to feel, and the permission to ask. And once they know it's normal, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, thi, their, thi, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, tho, thi, to, tho, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I.... I, I, I, I, I.............. I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I...... to, I's, I's, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, is, too, too, too, too, is. too, too, too, too, is is. too, too, too, is. too, too,, then they can, then they know how to do it. It's natural. I wish the world could hear the questions that 12-year-old boys ask when given a safe space. Because they are geniuses, they're geniuses in terms of understanding how love works, how relationships works, how humans work. And so I just, they normalize it. And then in their homes and teachers and they they they they they they they they they they their, their, their, their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and they're, and they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, the, the, their, their, the, the, the, the. thoo. the. the. thooooooooooooooooooooooo, their, their, their, their, th normalize it. And then in their homes and teachers and bosses, you just got to make it normal so that you create spaces where friendships are valued. Teachers put, don't separate out kids that are friends. Put them together.

Put them together. And then talk about how they can help each other learn. That they learn better with each other than by themselves. So don't do that thing, and we're gonna separate you because you guys are friends. It's like, no, no, actually use that relationship to learn. There's a beautiful study at UVA that shows, and it's been replicated. The subject of the research stands in front of a hill

and has to estimate the steepness of the hill with a backpack on their back. It's an experiment, a research, a research, it's a research, it's a that's a experiment, it's a experiment, it's a experiment, it's a experiment, it's a their, it's a their, it's a thi, it's a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, a thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, their, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiii, thiiiioli, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, an experiment, a research experiment. They're standing next to a best friend in one condition, standing there, a stranger in another condition by themselves, or with someone they know who they don't know very well, okay? So in each condition, they have to estimate the steepness of the hill, you got it, right? Those that are standing next to a best friend, see the hill as less steep. So what's incredible is that we actually see the world as less difficult when we're standing next to someone who loves us. We see the math problem, the whatever you're doing,

as less difficult when you're next to someone who loves you. So use that in education, use that in the workplace. Put people who are close together, working on teams together. You see what I'm saying? So you disrupt all the even at home. Talk about friendships. We got to think as parents to say, tell me about, you know, thinking about our own friendships, talk about with your kids.

I don't share the intimacies of my friends, but I talked about when when their their, their, their, their, their I talk about how that made me feel bad when so and so didn't return my text. And I wrote her three times that she didn't write back and that made me feel bad. And then I asked them for advice they're teenagers. So I'll say, what do you think I should do? What do you think I should say? And I see, do that you have to, you know, you have to get special help for. You bring up a lot of great points and, you know, you're talking about your kids and I'm a father also. They're between 21 and 33 now,

but I would, it was not unusual at all for me to ask, especially my boys, on a scale of 1 to 10, how do you feel today, right? to, to, to to to, to, to to, to, to to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, their, to, to, to, to, to, and, and, and to, and to to to to to to their, their, and to to to, and to, and to, and to, and to, to, to, to, to, to, to to to to to to to to to to to to to to their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, and their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, you're, you know, you're, you're, you know, their, you're, you know, you're, you're, you know, you're, you're, you know, toe.e. Andthat were informal conversations around how they're doing and to really lean in and ask more and more questions. So that's really important. To your question, Roy, for men, it's normalized that we're taught to not ask for help, to not need anything. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, all those kinds of things. And when we do spend time with each other, it might be around going and having a drink or it might be around a sporting event or watching a game. That's where the bonding happens, right?

And what we need to be able to do, and what's helpful is that we really lean into the strength and vulnerability, right? Like, I'm really going through something, right? And I want to share that with you. And I don't thin' to to to to to to to to to to to to the the toe theymemememea toe theymea toe, theyoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoomoom, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, tho, to, to. tooooo. tooo. toooo. thea. thea, thoo is, okay man, well, you know, it'll get better, let's just move on. They don't really lean in and process in the same way that women are taught honestly in our society to use more language and ask more questions, right? Because I'm sure your wife ask more questions about what you're feeling than you might ask her. You just want

you okay, good? Okay. I don't have to talk about anything else, right? You don't ask enough questions, therefore you don't care. I do care. I pay the bills. Don't you see this, you feel this warm heat in this house? We absolutely care, but we're not comfortable asking those questions because we've been told you don't go into that emotional space. You stay that that that that that that that that that that that that that so so so so so so that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that that to to to to to to too, too. too. tooe. too. tooom. tooom. tooomom. tooomome. tooome. tooome. tooome. tooes. tooes. told you don't go into that emotional space. You stay away from that emotional space. So much so that even when we go to

and the thing about your listeners, I bet if there's a woman listening to the podcast, there's a man in her life, her brother, her father, a man she's dating, her husband who's going to make sure she goes with him. Why? Because he's not going to ask the questions that he needs to ask, because even that for us is vulnerability, right? Even that for us is like, I just want to get in and out. You go to doctor, yes. Well, but did you ask him about this? Well, no.

Right. So vulnerability is a strength. It really is. And honestly, when. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that. that that. that. that for that for that for that for us is, that for us is, that for that for that for that for that for that for that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for. that for us. that. th. that. th. thus, thus. thus. that. that. that. that for us, that for us is, that for us is, that for us is, that for us is, that for us is, that for us is, they're respected for that because other men see that, wow, that was vulnerable. And that's the strength. So it isn't something we need to run away from. And that's going to give us a better sense of well-being, a better sense of mental health, to really have health mentally, and to be able to support everyone else along the way.

And it's to modeling it for our children as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, to to to to be to be to be to be to to to to to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be's going to really make us feel better too and it's modeling it for our children as well. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. How does therapy play a role in this? Men are half the country we are 80% of the suicides, according to the CDC. Where does therapy of any kind help with anything that you all have just been talking about? I want to say something that's very specific to me being a woman. I hear this from other women friends. So therapy is huge because it allows the space, and this is what happens, Roy, between heterosexual relationships almost always, is women feel,

I'm going to now be the voice of all women across the world, are you ready? Okay, I'm ready. So basically that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burden that we are burdened that we are burdened that, basically, that we are burdened with the care of our children and the care of our husband. And now, with this new emotional awakening of men, we now have to be the therapist for our husbands as well and our partners. And there's a lot of anger about that. Like, we can't be the therapist, we can't be the caretaker, the therapist, that's, than, than, than, than, than, than, than, than, than, than, than, than, than, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, thian, thiii, the, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, tha, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, ta, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, carea, care, care, care, care, care, care, care, care, care, care, care, care, care, the caretaker, the therapist, the everything, you know, for our husbands. And then the dynamic I see in my friends, I do not do research on this, but I see it in my community, is resentment. Is that the woman doesn't have time to be the therapist to her husband. She, he wants her to, because he feels safe talking to romantic partner, whatever it is, could be a friend, could be a friend,

but a professional who really knows basically how to make you, reconnect with your own humanity. So I would very much encourage therapy, especially in terms of understanding that you need multiple people to support you. This whole notion that we can rely on one person in our life, you know, our spouse or our partner to be the end-all, be-all, is getting in the way. It's getting in the way. We need multiple people. We need our moms, our grandmas, our aunts, our uncles, our therapists, our best friend, our partner. We need a lot, we need a community to build, you know, to make us fully human and so that we act like humans. And we're still stuck in this model, Ted, you know this.

We're still stuck. We put all our emotional eggs into one romantic basket and then expect us to be happy with this one person. And that's just not real. Therapy is very important. And we don't need to even call it that. When I encourage men to get therapy, I'll thia, when thia, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, th, th, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th. th. th. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, togu. to, to, to, tha, tha, thy, I'll say, man, you just, you need a sounding board. You know what I mean? You need somebody who can share objectively what they might think.

Not, you know, it's great to have a friend, but we're not always objective, and we kind of want things to get better for you. And it may not require us leaning in to really ask more questions that really get to a real solution that's meaningful. thiiiiiiiii. tho. tho. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thin. thin. thi, when, thi, when, when I thin, thin, thin, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi, thi, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when, when I thi, when I that, when I that that that to to to to to to to to to to the to the the thi. And, when thi. And, thi, thi, solution that's meaningful. That's more meaningful. So really encouraging therapy for men, I encourage therapy for men. I've been in and out of therapy for different things throughout my life. My children know that. My children have also engaged in therapy at some point in their life because it's not something to run away from.

It's actually, they needed a sounding board, too. And I would say, even just go to share any frustrations you have about me or your mom. Like, just go to start talking about things where you can share some things that you may not feel totally comfortable sharing with us at this point. So therapy is essential. It will prevent depression. The anxiety among men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men men is off the charts. As you said, suicide is really three

and a half times higher than women and 80% of suicides, I believe you mentioned from the CDC. So there's something that's not right. That's not working for us as men. So this is the fix. So with all of that being said, let's end it here. We've already kind of unpacked ways that we can try and change the culture. What hope and optimism th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. to to to to to th. to to to to to to to be to to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be the to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be to be th, th. th. of of of of of of of of of of of of of of the the the the th. the the the. the. the the of the thea. the thea. the the thea. the thea. toea. toea. toea. toe. toe. toe. the that we can try and change the culture. What hope and optimism do you have for the future of manhood? Yeah, I have a lot of hope. Yeah, I have a lot of hope. It looks like you're not finished, Roy. Well, you know, we're going to see how this is going go up. You know, you got to understand. My sample size is one. Y'all the ones studying 150 people and writing books. I'm just raising one. the they. You. You. You. You. You. You. You. they. they. they. their. their. their. their. their. the ones studying 150 people and writing books. I'm not writing books. I'm just raising one. He seems to be doing good so far. He's definitely in tune with his emotions and Expressive about it way more so than I was at the same mile marker and that's what we need to allow

Right? We really need to allow our children like your son to embrace and express his full range of emotions and we need to do that too when he's going through fear We can th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th. that's th. thi thi thi thi thi the the the hea hea hea hea hea hea. he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he he th. the the the the the the the the they. the the they. the the th. th. th. th. th. thin. thin. the to the to to the to to to to to to to to te to to to to to to te to to te the th And we need to do that, too. When he's going through fear, we can say, you know, I feel afraid too. And this is what I do, and I want to work through that fear, because on the other side, no matter how it turns out, it's always good that I've worked through that fear. So we're not saying, don't push our children to confront things we don't want them, you know, we don't want to motivate them by denigrating them or using girls or women or others to say don't be like that or don't be like this, right? Those are the kind of things that we really want to do. We want to have to have them express through their language what's going on. So I have a lot of optimism about menhavit about menhood. I think thagagagag a point where it's clearly not working, and we know that.

And so now it's just a matter of time of how do we need to purge what needs to happen so that we can start talking in real ways that really connect with our humanity. That's the real thing here. Just as there's a racial awakening in a lot of ways, and it's difficult. It's painful. People are being triggered all the time, right? So it's difficult, but we have to get through it. And the same thing here around our own mental health

and our own sense of well-being. I think, first of all, we have to make sure we're locating the problem is where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where where the problem is not men, the problem is not women, the problem is not non-gender conforming people, right? The problem is not black people, it's not poor people, it's not immigrants. The problem is a culture that doesn't align with our nature and a culture that doesn't nourish the best angels of our nature, right? So the idea is, if the focus is on valuing both the heart and soft sides of ourselves, equally, men and women, non-gender conforming,

I don't care what your identity is. Your hard and soft, if that's our goal, which it should be, then it becomes easy because we're naturally hard and soft. And the hope is, and I work with, remember I teach it, NYU. So I see a hundred college students a semester, and the hope when I see those young people, when I see those young people across race, across class, across nationality, all sorts of young people, they are starving, Roy, for this conversation. They are starving for it. They are literally, I'm not even exaggerating. They're yelling at us in those, in my classes I teach of like, what is wrong with

you people? And this is what we want, why are you still saying academic achievement is more important than close friendship? Like why are you still saying that? Because that's not what's important in the world. I just have to say the fact that even this close got this nomination, it's just about boys friendships, that's all the film is about. And then something happens because the friendship gets in the way. And the enormous response to it means, it, the the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, is thi, is thi, is thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th friendship gets in the way. And the enormous response to it means that cultural change is already happening. It's already happening.

This has been a wonderful conversation. I cannot thank both of you enough for giving me a piece of your time and giving our viewers a little bit of knowledge. That's all the time we have for today. Ted, Naomi, thank you so much for going beyond the scenes with me. Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you.

Listen to the Daily Show. Watch the Daily Show weeknights at 1110 Central on Comedy Central and stream full episodes anytime on Fairmount Plus. This has been a Comedy Central podcast. This has been a Comedy Central podcast.