The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Rutger Bregman - "Utopia for Realists" and Big Ideas for an Equitable Economy

Episode Date: January 13, 2022

Historian and "Utopia for Realists" author Rutger Bregman makes the case for improving society by taxing the rich and providing a universal basic income. Originally aired March 2019. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome to the show. It's great to be here. A few months ago, for many people, your name did not exist in their minds at all in any way, and now you are a superstar. Especially for many young people, because of your views in and around tax and the super wealthy around the world. How did you come to this from what you do?

Because you're a historian. Yeah, yeah. In fact, you are a Dutch historian. I'm a Dutch historian. That's how everyone refers to you, the Dutch historian. I think, you know, I'm really part of a much wider movement, you know, a whole new generation, that thinks that we need to move on to new ideas, to new, to new, to new, to new, to, to, to, to, to, to new, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, and, to, the, the, and, and, and, and, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, too, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, too, too, too, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, and, the, and, and, the, the, the, the, the, and, the, the, the, and, the, the theofofofofofuu.....e. the theof, the theof, the the the the the too, ofo, ofo, ofo, ofo, ofo, ofo, ofo, ofo, ofo, ofo, ofo, too, ofo, too, too, too, the, too, and basically that realize that we need a massive transformation of our economy. And I was just in a place at the World Economic Forum where usually not many people get to go there.

And it was just one of the few people there may not talking common sense. We actually have a clip that went viral. If we can play that right now. Almost no one raises the real issue of tax avoidance, right, and of the rich, just not paying their fair share. I mean, it feels like I'm at a firefighters conference and no one's allowed to speak about water. This is not rocket science. I mean, we can talk for a very long time about all these stupid philanthropy schemes.

We can invite Bono once more. Come on, it's we got to be talking about taxes, taxes, taxes, all the rest is bullshit in my opinion. So this was, to give people context, this was you sitting with the richest people in the world. Yeah. And you were, you were actually supposed to be there to talk about just like the other aspects of your book, like universal basic income, etc. And you surprised everyone with that.

They didn't really like that, no. I was, I mean, I was supposed to go there and promote my book, talk about universal basic income, which has become a really popular idea. But, you know, during the conference I became more and more uncomfortable, because you can talk about all sorts of issues there, right? Feminism, participation, equality. But then no one raises the tea word, right? You're not, people don't really talk about taxes and tax-appointed. So I just went to my hotel room and prepared this short speech and I got the question from, from the moderator

and basically ignored his question and then went ahead. Since that, since that little moment in Davos, have you noticed a few private jets following you now? Have you noticed a few private jets following you now? Have you? Because it seems like something that would push a lot of really, really wealthy people off. That idea of them paying more tax and them avoiding it. Why do you think that's more important or should be like one of the main conversations apart from transparency and equality and philanthropy? Well, you know, I'm a historian, right right so if I see someone like say President Trump talk about we should make America great again he wants to go back to the 50s or something like that I'm like yeah well maybe that's a good idea because in the 50s we have much higher tax rates for the rich in

fact a billionaire like Trump would pay like 90% top marginal tax right the estate tax was over 70% for people like Trump so yeah I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean I mean a th I mean a th I mean a th th th th th th th. th. th. th. th. I mean a b. th. I mean a billion. I mean a billion. th. I'm a billion. th. to make to make to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to th. th. thi. the. thi. thi. the. the. thi. the. thi. thi. to to the. to to to to to to to to to. Right. The estate tax was over 70 percent for people like Trump. So yeah, I mean make America great again. Bring back those higher tax rates. That would be my slogan. Do you? Do you? Do you? There are many people who would argue against you and say to you, yeah, I mean, you say you want to raise taxes on the wealthy, but the wealthy are already paying their fair share of taxxx....... t. t. their, their, t. their, t. their, their, to, to, to, to, to, their, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, too, their, to to their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, toe, toe, toe, their, their, toe, their, their, toe, toe, toe, toe, toe, to me.e, toe.e.e. And, toe. And, toe. And, toe. And, make, make, toe. And, toe. And, their, toe say to you, yeah, I mean, you say you want to raise taxes on the wealthy, but the wealthy are already paying their fair share of taxes. People are paying almost 50% of what they earn.

Isn't that fair? How do you respond to them? You know, this is all boring debate in this country about, you know, capitalism versus socialism. From my perspective, it's a bit ridiculous ridiculous. Like, we're th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, people are thi, people are thi, people thi, people thi, people thi, people thi thi thi, people thi thi, people thi. people thi. People, people thi. People, people thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People thi. People are thi. People are thi. People are thi. People are thi. People are thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thii. People are thi. thi. People are thi. People are thi. People are thi in favor of that, higher taxes on their 75% is in favor of that. So it's utterly mainstream. And I know that sort of the standard response here is always, ooh, that sounds like communism, that sounds like Venezuela. But it's not communism, it's common sense. It's it's what most people support. Let me let me ask you this. One of the things I know that gets thrownownownownownown thrown thrown thrown thrown thrown that gets thrown thrown that gets thrown thrown on thrown on that gets that's that's that's the the thate thate the thate thate. that's their. to bea. toe. to be to be to me me. to me. to be to be to be to be to be, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, to. to. too. too, too, too, too, their, too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. too. toe. too. too. toe. too, too, the too. One of the things I know that gets thrown at me all the time is people go, oh, you raise the taxes and everyone's going to leave because I mean, you know, if you raise the taxes

for the rich, then the rich are going to go live in countries where they don't have to pay as much tax and then you've lost all of those incomes and throwneums those people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people people their people people people people people in your people their people people people people in your people their from, right? We're one of the main tax paradises for American corporations. So, you know, that's really a matter of political will, I guess. Just them being willing to say, hey, we're going to tax you no matter where you go, no matter what you do. It's interesting that you, you fight for these ideas when you come from Europe, people would say to you, but Rodka, you come from a country where things are great. You do have all of these services. People are not struggling as much as they are in other parts of the world.

Why is this so important to you then? Well, I mean, the American debate is incredibly influential back in Holland, right? So, and we've got rising that is under pressure. But I mean it's also true that if I look at a debate right around Medicare for all for example America is the only country in the rich world that doesn't have it and still it has the most expensive health care system and life expectancy is going down. So yeah that seems pretty ridiculous. You have a bunch of ideas that many people would consider ridiculous depending on their age and I find a lot of young people genuinely love as genius- th th th th th th th th the th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, the, right, right, right, right, right, right thi, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right, right right, right right right, right, right right, right right, right right, right, right, right right, right right, right, right right, right, right, right, right thi, right thi, right thi, right thi, right thi thi thi thi, right, right thi thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi. thi. thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii. thiii's thiii's thi's thi's thi, thi people would consider ridiculous, depending on their age,

and I find a lot of young people genuinely love as genius. Utopia for Realists is the book that you wrote, and it's come back into prominence again because it's just like a fun read. You talk about all of these ideas and how they could actually be implemented, which is interesting, it's not just the ideas. Universal Basic In the Borders, 15-hour Work Week, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, to, to, to, to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the, thi, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, the ideas. Universal basic income, open borders, 15-hour work week. Really, just, I mean, this is like a book. This is like Freddy Kruger for a GOP person. This is, this is like nightmare stories. That's what this is. Indeed. Did you see the picture of Rupert Murdoch reading the book? I actually did, I did see that we have is one of the people you're speaking about.

I framed it, obviously. It's a picture, yeah. Like, when you talk about these issues, like universal basic income, for instance, seems like a crazy idea. You're just going to pay people to not work, then why would anyone work? Well, not many people know actually is that if you go back to the 60s, almost everyone believed, all the experts believe that some form of basic income was going to be implemented in the

United States, and it was actually Richard Nixon of all people who had a bill for a modest basic income that got through the House of Representatives twice and was only killed in the Senate by Democrats, not because they didn't like the idea of completely eradicating poverty, but because they wanted a higher basic income. Soecececececececececece. So. So. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, thii, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, is, is, is, is, is, is th. thi, is thi, is thi, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is th. th. And, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is, is a th. And, is a th. And, is a th. And, is a thi. And, thi. And, thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. thr-a. And, thr-a. And, thr-a. And, thi. And, thi. And, is a they wanted a higher basic income. So it's a pretty bizarre history that I describe in the book. Another bizarre thing is that actually there were major trials with basic income in the US back then, you know, thousands of families received a basic income just to test what would happen. Turns out it was really effective, you know, health care costs went down, crime went down,

kids did much better in school. But then the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the their their their their their their their their their their their th th th th, th, th, th, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, tho, the, the, the, the, the, thi, thi, thi, tho, tho, th............................. And, th, th, th, th, th, th. And, the, the, the, the, the, the, thea, thea, thea. And, thea.ea.ea.eaugh, tea, tea, total, total, total, totalea.ea.ea. And, thea. And, crime went down, kids did much better in school. But then there was one problematic finding is that they also found that the divorce rates went up, you know, quite a lot because a lot of women were like, okay I'm gonna leave that, that asshole. And then, but then all the conservatives obviously said, okay we don't want basic income anymore. This is gonna make women much too independent, right? It was only 10 years later that they that that that that that that that that that that they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they also also they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they they also also also also also also also found th. tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho their also also also also also also also also also found their also also also also found their also also also found they also found out they they they th all the conservatives obviously said, okay, we don't want basic income anymore. This is going to make women much too independent, right? It was only 10 years later that they found out that they have made a statistical mistake. So in reality, the divorce rate did not go up. It's a pretty bizarre history full of that.

Well, let me ask you this then. As a historian who is basing your arguments on things that have actually happened, the, the, tho, tho, tho, tho, their, tho, their, their, tho, their, their, their, their, tho, tho, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, thi, the, the.eate.e.eate.e.e.e.e. the. theate. the. the. the, the, their, the, that have actually happened, does it frustrate you when you see politicians like Trump, I guess, misstating their plans based on a history that they don't seem to understand themselves? Because like you said, Trump says we're going to do it the way it was, but then when you propose the way it was, he's like, no I don't like that. Do you think that as people, as people in general, we just don't know enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough enough then, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thin, thin. thin. thin. thin. the. th. the. th. th. thi. thi. the. the, the, th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the. to to toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. toe. to. to. toe. toe. toe. to. the. the. Well, what frustrates me the most are these people, the so-called moderates, the centrist, who say, oh, that's never going to happen, you know, that is too radical. Right. If you zoom out a little bit, you see that so many times in history, utopian fantasies have become reality. I think that's important to keep in mind. You know, democracy was once a crazy idea, right? The end of slavery was once a total fantasy.

It all happened, but it never starts in the center. It always happens, starts on the fringes with people who are first dismissed as radical, as crazy as lunatics, right? So I guess we've got to be a bit unreasonable sometimes. You have to be unreasonable to move the conversation forward. The 15-hour work week is probably my favorite part of your book. How does that even begin to work? Yeah, well it goes back to a very old idea actually of the economist John Maynard Keynes. He wrote this essay in 1930

that you sort of make two predictions. The first prediction was we're going to be a lot richer in the future, right? If we don't make stupid mistakes like start another World War or have a surety during times of crisis, well we did that, but anyway, we'll be a lot richer and then we'll use that wealth to work a little bit less each year. And then he just extrapolated in a set, we'll have a 15-hour work week in 2030. The fascinating thing again, from the historical perspective is that up until the 70s, you know, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, you th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii, thi, thi, thi, thi until the 70s, you know, we were on track to make it. You know, the work week was shrinking and shrinking and shrinking and the experts were predicting that the biggest challenge of the future was going to be boredom. It's only around 1980 that, you know, throughout the developed world,

we've been starting to working more and more and we've been keeping on inventing these jobs that don't really need to exist. Right. So people sitting in offices, sending emails all day to people they don't really like and writing reports, no one's ever going to read, right? So that's what they, the academic term is bullshit jobs. Yes. Yeah, it's just like basically you just sit there and then you're just like, to whom it may concern, reply all, as per my last email etc etc. That's half of my day. But then the fascinating thing is that most of these jobs you know are people who have wonderful resumes you know who went to great universities and have wonderful job titles but then

still at the end of the day they're like you know well I could go on strike and no one would notice. So in the book I've got this story of two strikes that happened in the 60s. The first strike was of garbage collectors, New York, 1968, lost it for six days. State of emergency had to be declared. It turns out we can't do without garbage collectors. Right. So at that point I wondered, has it ever happened, you know, that the bankers went on strike? So I started looking looking tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho the tho tho tho tho thi tho thi thi, tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho tho thi. tho tho-a, tho-a' tho-a tho-a tho-a tho their tho tho tho the first, the first the first the first the first the first the first the first their the bankers went on strike. So I started looking, looked at the past 5,000 years,

basically, since the invention of money. And I found only one example. And this was in Ireland in 1970. The bankers were angry that their wages were not keeping up with inflation. So they said, you know what, you'll have it. We're going to go on strike. And all the experts were like, oh, thi and thi and thi and thi and thi and thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, they, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, tho, th, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, thi, their, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi... thin, thi. thin, thi. tooooooooooooooooooooooo. thi. thi. like, oh, this is going to be a disaster, it's going to be a heart attack for the economy. And then from one day to the other day, 85% of the money supply was not accessible anymore. And then, nothing much happened actually. So, the strike lasted for six months in the end. And after six months, the bankers came back and said, all right, all right, all right, we'll get back to work. And I think this is another example

where history just makes you rethink, who are the real wealth creators in this country? Is this wealth really, you know, is it really created at the top and then does it trickle down? Or maybe it's the other way around. And are the teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers teachers the the the the the the the the the the their their their the garbage collectors and the nurses, are they the real wealth creators. Wow, that's powerful, man. Let me ask you this as a historian.

If we don't take these concepts seriously, if we don't think about how we protect workers and not the jobs themselves, if we don't think about how to get people paying their fair share of taxes, how we stop people avoiding tax, which is a huge issue. What do you then worry would happen based on history? Well, what I worry about the most is that about the moments when people just don't have hope anymore for a better future, right? So my frustration a couple of years ago when I started writing this book was that I saw so

so many people, you know, young people or people call themselves progressives who only knew what they were against. Against austerity, against racism, against homophobia, against all these things that, and yes, I'm against them as well, but you also have to know what you're actually for. And that's why I'm so excited that you see this whole movement now of indeed, younger people who come up th. th. th. th. th. th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th. And th, th. And th. And thi's thi, thi's thi, their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their they's they's they's they's they're they're they's they're they're they's they's they're they's, they's, they's, they're they're they're their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their younger people who come up with all these fascinating new ideas, sometimes old ideas, sometimes new ideas, like the Green New Deal. That's what excites me the most because we need hope. Wow. Thank you for being on.

Really great having you on. Utopia for Realist is a really fascinating read. It's available now. The Daily Show with Trevor Noah, Ear's Edition. It's a really fascinating read. It's available now. Rucker Bregman, everybody.