The Daily Show: Ears Edition - Sarah Silverman and Hasan Minhaj on the Toxicity of Social Media and Why Technology Sucks

Episode Date: May 17, 2023

New Yorker staff writer and bestselling author Jia Tolentino discusses how Big Tech companies profit off our emotions on social media, the pivotal moment that made her quit Twitter, and how improving people's actual lives could reduce time spent on the internet. And Hasan Minhaj talks to tech influencer Marques Brownlee about how to break free from technology and why so much of it sucks. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to Comedy Central. My guest tonight is a staff writer at the New Yorker, an author of the bestseller, Trick Mirror, reflections on self-delusion. She's here to talk about social media companies monetizing hate and how we can use the internet as a force for good. Please welcome Gia Tolentino. Please welcome Gia Tolentino. So you've Yeah. So you've

So you've so. So you've written about social media companies and how they monetize rage. Is there any way to, is there any way and how they monetize rage. Is there any way to, is there any way that they could be incentivized to stop this? One way that I think about it is like did corporations all throughout the like the last century until the 70s have any incentive to stop like poisoning rivers and dumping their waste all over the place? They didn't. It's like cheaper to be shitty, right?

Like, they, like, it is in their financial best interest to just keep poisoning the river until someone makes them stop, which we could. But like, you know, it's in their best interest for us to feel bad, right? Like, you never hear someone being like, I had an amazing day. I just sat and I and I just it it it it Like it's like, you only do that when you feel, you only scroll that long when you feel bad, and when you do that, when you scroll for that long, you feel even worse, and then you do it more.

And that cycle is the primary way. It's like cocaine. It is like cocaine. Except, last fun. Right. But, um, it's interesting because I's that, that that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's fun. It's fun. that's fun. that's fun. that's that's that's fun. that's, that's fun. that's fun. that's fun. that's fun. that's fun. that's fun. that's fun. It's fun. that's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's fun. It's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's theo. theo. that's theo. that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's that's fun. that's fun. that's fun. that's, it's just not going to come back to you. Yeah, exactly. But, um, it's interesting because I see stories pop up that give me outrage. And I realize that they're designed to do it. Like, it took me a second. A friend of mine, whose leans a little right texted me this story about how the LGBT community wants to ban natural women.

You know, you make me feel like I'm a natural woman where Eretha Franklin. And I did like two clicks of research and of course it was from a parody account. Right. But picked up from papers and then the parody account even said afterwards, like, nobody called us for a comment. Right. And then on the- No one checked the about page on the website. Yeah and then on the left, you know I read an article about the Missouri Senate making women senators, they couldn't wear sleeve list shirts and I was about to go ape shit. And I went, oh but the men afterwards ties and suits, it's just a dress code.

But it was designed to make to wear ties and suits. It's just a dress code. But it was designed to make me go bananas, and it did. Right, I mean, everything, like if you are on a social media platform that what you see is governed by an algorithm, which is basically all the major ones, it's all designed to make you feel like the best person possible and that everyone else is a dumb piece of shit. Like that's, that is what gets us to spend as much time on there as possible. Yeah, I used to go that righteousness porn. Yeah.

Yeah, and then you realize you don't actually want to see these male law wicker's wearing tank tops anyway. You don't want to see it. Maybe we don't want to actually be mad about. And a lot of the stuff that's, you know, it's like some celebrities said something dumb. It's like, do we care? Does, does this matter? Does, like, I think one of the things that drives me

personally nuts about all of it is that matter a lot, most things matter very little or nothing at all, and we're taught that, you know, we should all be as mad as possible about all of it all the time, right? Well, yeah, I mean, like you went off Twitter a few years ago. Congratulations. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. Thank you. I'm so much. I than. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I tho. I tho. I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I tho, I'm that, I'm tho, I tho, I tho, I to th. I to to to to to to to to to to to to to all, I to all, I to all, I to all, I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I th. I that, I that, I that, I that, I'm that, I'm that, I'm that, I'm that, I'm that, I'm that, I'm that, that, that, tho. I'm tho. I'm tho. I'm that, that, that, that, that, that would turn me into a genius and like a great happy person and it, you know, just I'm wasting just a little less time. Right, right. But I mean, like I definitely, like I'm kind of exit only on there now and, is that right?

I just like, well, post stuff I need to post for show dates or something. But that has made my life a little, definitely a little bit. You realize that Twitter is not the world. Right, right. And I mean, I got off because, like, I don't know if you had this experience, but it was like as soon as the pandemic started, you know, and my life shrank to, you know, one room in a weekly trip to the grocery store, and the internet balloon to fill the rest of my existence.

And I was like, it bigger than actual physical life, I was like, I gotta get out of here. Twitter is such a cesspool now. It's so negative. How do, there's, is there any way to unravel this? Well, I think that as long as these companies, the primary way they make their money is for us to spend as much time as possible on them and the best way, as you were saying in that segment, for us, for them to ensure that we spend as much time on them as possible is through all of the

emotions that make us feel as bad as possible, self-righteousness and anger and, you know, everyone getting as mad as possible as a group about the next day, as th the next day, as long as that is the economic model, there is no hope. But I think, you know, again, as with the corporations that we're, you know, making all the fish die in the rivers, you can, you can make them change. We could regulate this. Right. If we I think our government is like, how does also nursing at the teet of like big tech, you know, 100%. I think like one, I think one thing that's necessary is for people to remember that we can, you know, we don't have to feel like, yeah, yeah, like the internet, we all feel insane on the internet, we all feel so bad all the time, and that's just the way it is, right? I think that we are capable of getting as mad about this as people did about in the environmental move in the 70s, right?

Like we are capable of generating pressure and putting it on lawmakers. And there are things like you could end automated recommendations, right? Automated recommendations are the reasons that, you know, a mom of two in Cleveland, you know, starts looking up smoothie recipes for her two-year-old and ends up believing that wayfair is shipping, you know, like orphans in their things. And you know, the, the, why, like, it's designed to radicalize.

Exactly, right. And so much of that, so much of that is, so much of that is, so much of that is, is, is, is, is, that, that, that, that, that, is, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, thei... the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, to, too, too, too, tooome.a.a.a. tooome.a. tooome.a. tooome.a. tooome. toe. toe. much of that is automated recommendations because that, and people have been recommending for years for that, you know, simply ending those. Those are one of the biggest reasons that the internet has gotten so much worse, so much less fun, so much less surprising is because these companies just identify the kind of person you are and then funnel you towards, you know, whatever the worst version of that person is. YouTube is bizarre. You know one th, th, th, th, th, thi thi thi thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi. thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, and thi, and thi, and thi, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and thi, and thi, and thi, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, and th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, th. And, and thi. And, thi. And, and, and thi. And, and thi. And, and thi. And, and thi. And, and, and thi. And, and thi. And, and, and thi. And, and, and, and thi. And, and thi. And, and thi. towards, you know, whatever the worst version of that person is. YouTube is bizarre. You know, one time I made the mistake of going, like, what is this globalist? What do they mean by globalists?

And I became an anti-semitte within like 15 minutes. Yeah, it's amazing how well it works. And there are things like, you know, you could end legal immunity for these companies if violence is caused by something that was generated on these platforms. The worst that actual offline life is, the more people spend on the internet, right? And we just have really done very little in terms of public policy to make actual life better for people, right? And to give people free public spaces to hang out, sothe only place so it's not like the only place they hang out is the internet you know we've done so little to improve actual life that it I think is one of

the things that drives people over and over to just be like yeah you know for hours at a time and I mean I feel like a boomer saying that but I feel like that would help a lot. Well yeah also it's it it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's the the the the the the the the the the the th. It's like it's like it's like it's like it's like I I th. th. I th. I th. I the the the th. I th. I th. I thi. I their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their their thi. I thi. I tho. I tho. I thooooooo. I thoooo. thooo. thooo. the. their their their their that but I feel like that that would help a lot. Well yeah also it's like the I feel like social media originally was designed or its intention was to connect right to connect people but instead I think it's kind of put us in silos and it's given us this existential like do I exist you know I mean even on selfies I feel like are just a constant question of, do I exist? I exist, right? Right.

And, you know, it's interesting, but there's anger, you know, people make money from our anger, they get clicks from anger, but there's some good anger on the internet where people are organizing. You know, so how do you, not how do you differentiate, but how do you keep the good anger and get us away from the shitty anger? Well, what you were saying about connection, it's like we, the version of connection

that is generated through hate is not a kind of connection that makes sense in real life. It's only a kind of connection that is incentivized and sounds good on the internet, right? Like in real life or we actually like, oh I want to spend six hours like face deep in you know in the business of someone I hate, no, right? Like we form, we do our business based on like affinity and the things that we care about and the things that we like positively want and I think as much as I think the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet the internet as the internet as the internet as the internet as the the the the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. thi to thi thi to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the. the the the the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. the. I. I to about as much as I think the internet as it's structured right now is kind of inevitably an existential and civic that negative, that there are still these things.

I mean, you think about the protest summer 2020, they wouldn't have turned into what they became right with like a quarter of Americans hitting the streets at some point if it wasn't for like a continual stream of videos on Twitter of police brutalizing the protesters at the police brutality protests right like like these there is still like radical potential you think about what people are doing with abortion access right now on the internet you know forming these underground networks and getting people to travel across state lines and making sure anyone can get pills who needs them you know I try to remember that you know we still can and will try to be to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to to the to the the the the to the the the the to the the the to the the to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the to to to to to to to to to to to to the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the te. te. te. te. te. te. te. te. tel. te. tel. tel. te. tel. the. the the the the the th, I try to remember that, you know, we still can and will try to be human on, you know, within a mechanism that wants us to be less so, and we can keep doing it. Well, it's, yeah, it's like the Wild West, but the leaders are

billionaires, and I mean, everything I feel like, every single thing, every conversation I've had here, I feel like boils down to Citizens United because as long as people can line politicians' pockets, they're buying policy and our votes don't, I mean your vote counts and our votes just simply don't count. Yeah, but it's very frustrating. It doesn't, it's clearly not right. But of course they name it, Citizens United, it sounds beautiful. Let's hold for the siren. No, I'm just kidding. It's just showing that I'm in show business and I know how things work.

Well, yeah, and I think part of it, I mean, we see this pushback now, right? There is a fomenting sort of pushback and a dissatisfaction. And, you know, the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope the hope, that it's that's that's that's that's that's thueh, that's that's that's to to to to toe, toe, to show, to show, to show, tooomom, to me me to me to me toe, to show to show to show to show I'm just, I'm to show, I'm to show, I'm to show, I'm to show, I's, I's, I to show, I I I I I I I I to show, I I I, I, I, I to show, I's, I's, I's, I's, to show, to show, to show, to show, to show, to show, to show, to show, tooom, tooom, actual pressure on lawmakers to do something. But for a long time, we accepted the general model of Silicon Valley, the move fast-break things, sort of move faster than regulation could ever get you. We accepted that as like, oh, that's amazing. We could, you know, that'll result in us pressing a button and getting a car at our doorstep and, you know, and any kind of food we want like we've we for a really long time accepted the conveniences that the internet economy provides us. We're such sluts for convenience. And then they just and then they just

snap those little handcuffs of anger around us and here we are. Yeah you go like iPhones are made by child labor I'm gonna order you know well you know let's see yeah yeah I'm gonna click to order. Yeah, or like Amazon, you know, I'm gonna, you know, I was like, no, no one's boycotting Amazon. It's too convenient. Yeah, but the thing is you can. And I think that like, the real first step in all of this is remembering like we, I mean, I have to have, it's very Orwellian I have a a program, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I's, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, the, to, to, to, the, to, the to, the to, the to, the to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to,, it's very Orwellian, I have a program called Self-Controle on my computer and a program called Freedom on my phone. And those things, because I have neither, and both of those things lock me off of social media for like 15 hours a day.

And I have needed to do that because I'm such a little slut for all the things that makes me mad. And it does work. Like you can just refuse to participate in little, little bits until maybe suddenly your life has changed a little. And I would recommend, you know, it's worth a try. Yeah, definitely. I mean, they say like, of course nobody can sleep. Because you're on your phones.

You've got to turn the screens off. And I'm like, yeah. But also no. But I prefer to drop my phone on my forehead seven times a night. This is when I go to sleep. Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. How do we fix the internet? Is there any hope in all of this? Yeah, yeah. I think in regulation and I think in public pushback and I think in all of us

spending less time on our phone, whether that means refusing convenience, you know, certain things th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th th things things things thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi thi, thi, that thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, thi, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I I I I I th. I tho, I tho, I tho, I thi, I thi, I thi, I tho-I tho-I tho-I, tho-I, tho-I, tho-I, tho-I tho-I thoo-I tho' thoo.back, and I think in all of us spending less time on our phone, whether that means refusing convenience, you know, certain things that are convenience, I think it means, I think all of these things are possible, but we have to maybe accept that in order to resist, the constant surveillance that's hitting us on our phone, that all of these companies, thracking and reselling to other that that that other other other other other other other other other other other that, that, that, that, to other other other other other other other other other other other other other other other to other to other to to to to to to resist the constant surveillance that's hitting us on our phone, that all these companies are like tracking and reselling to other companies to make money off of everything we do. We have to maybe refuse a little bit of the cheap pleasure and the convenience that the phone gives us.

But I think we can. All right. Okay. Okay. The trick mirror is available now. Thank you. If you're like to try to to the to If you're like me, your life is both owned and ruined by technology. So I want to talk to someone about how to break free from it all.

Even though I've made a career of standing in front of screens and flailing my arms, I So I went to talk to someone about how to break free from it all. Even though I've made a career of standing in front of screens and flailing my arms, I have a secret to tell all of you, I hate technology. Every new gizmo and gadget claims to be highly useful and easy to use. But if that were true, then why are we so frustrated by technology all the goddamn time. I decided to sit down with Marquez Brownlee aka MKBHD who's been heralded as the greatest tech reviewer on planet Earth bringing us endless videos of the newest high-tech piece of shit but could he convince me to join his techno-mania cult? Marquez you are like the Kim Kardashian of Technology. What you say moves product and you do

have a lot of junk in your trunk to review. Has that been said? Or are you just submitting this? That's the metaphor. Yeah, I'm proposing that. I like that. You have dedicated your life to reviewing technology. Why? There is a quote you've probably heard, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable for magic. If you have a certain expectation and the tech actually gives you that output you expect. Like that, that working, I love that. And when it doesn't work, what does it feel like? Incredibly frustrated. Yeah, to me it feels like an abomination to society. Yes, correct. Yeah, here's my problem.

My brain is melting right now because I have to juggle 100 apps just to communicate with eight people. When I was in college, there were three ways to get a hold of me. Call me if you're confident. Text me if you're shy. Email me if you're smart. Now? It's a hundred apps. I message, friends. Android, annoying friends.

Signal. Potenti-Inows. just college friends, WhatsApp, annoying family members, Instagram DMs, horny Randos, Twitter DMs, angry political Randos, Evite, psychos, paperless posts, liberal psychos. That's just messaging, Marquez. Yeah. So you do have the option to not try any of the things you don't want. Until I go to a restaurant,

and you go, hey, can I get a menu? Yeah. And they go, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. thi. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the. the the the the the the the the the the th. th. th. th. th. th. th. th. thi. th th th thi. to. too. th th th th th th th oh yeah, just scan the QR code. And I go, no, no, no, I went to this restaurant to avoid being on my phone. And then they're like, oh, you have to also pay through your phone. In order to do that, you have to create a username and password. Do you see what I'm saying? You just made this. I'll have the try a whole bunch of bad ideas before we find one or two cool things Hustin might like.

Marquez wanted to prove to me that tech could be useful and user-friendly by doing what he's known for, a product demo. Secretly, I suspected it would to turn into an episode of, this shit doesn't work. These new tech enhanced products were a smart toothbrush, smart hover shoes, and a smart printer. And of course all of these were supposed to be as easy as one, two, three. All right, let's see. Lean slowly forward to move forward, slightly backward to go backwards and step off to get up.

Okay. Smart toothbrush. It's got a ton of sensors and it might be able to shed some light on something you can do better. All right, let's see how easy it is. Sure. Look at that. A sticker reminding you how easy it is. to pussing you. to the's it? Right. Right. the's it. Right. Right. to be it. Right. the open it? Somewhere around. There you go. There's a tab. You know, because the sticker says effortless. Still there? Wait, wait, wait, wait. Why is it possessed?

Shit. Now connect this to your thing. App, right? App store app? The problem is is I just don't want my dentist to have even more info about me. Why not? Because I haven't been brushing the full happy birthday. Oh, sorry, it says, do not turn the power off until the initialization is complete. This takes about six minutes. So you're just going to sit here for six minutes. Where do I apply?

So if I apply, through. Yeah. So we have to make an account. We do have to type a Wi-Fi password. There's your keyboard. So you kind of type, by the way, there's capital. Mortez! I have to switch between uppercase and lowercase. And then down? You know relations are 10 because of something like that one?

Oh, I'll set up to tell you. Oh, I'll set it. the thele it as well. Yeah you want a password again? Yeah can you sign it to me? Unable to register user please try. This is what I'm saying! Try again! What does it say now? Doesn't work. It doesn't work. What does it! Log and fail! And where? What is the print? Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, let's have our final product, shall we?

I mean... The shit doesn't work! It doesn't work! It didn't work. I felt like I had just proved to Marquez that his entire life was a lie. But he had a slightly different perspective. The goal of tech is really to just work every time and be as easy as possible.

So I would just say to have patience with the things that don't work yet, because maybe they will soon. But printers are doing. So maybe the way to fix shitty modern technology is by becoming more patient and understanding users. Ah! Why can't you work?

Yeah! Here's an act. Open can. Open can. Close you can. Close. This shit doesn't work! Thank you, Marquez. Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by searching the Daily Show, wherever

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